Thread: Flex line in firebox

In a previous inspection I called out a stainless gas flex line in gas fireplace firebox . It partially ran under the gas logs and was not protected in anyway from the heat. I called it out as well as soot on the ceramic logs for further evaluation and repair. My clients moved in and the flex line is still there after the HVAC company serviced the fireplace.

Is this application OK? I can't find any references that allow this flex line in the firebox but there are reference that allow CSST to be used in gas fireplaces. Although they don't come out and say it, Gastite appears to transition to black iron in their illustrations but don't mention it. http://www.gastite.com/include/langu...8_DI_Guide.pdf

Any references would be appreciated,

//Rick

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It's not clear (to me at least) if you are referring to a nut by nut appliance connector between black pipe stub and gas log set all inside the fireplace or CCST passing through the side of the fireplace to a log set.
Pictures please ..........

Sorry - no pics - Your descriptions is accurate. Gas stub to flex line to gas/ flame control valve which then connected to log set.

//Rick

R.B.

You seem to have glossed over the prior responder's question, i.e. the distinction between gas line (CSST) and a pre-manufactured gas appliance connector.

This has been discussed many, many, many times on this forum.

The first may under certain circumstances and protections pass through an opening into the gas appliance, the latter may not.

If your questioned installation involves a pre-manufactured gas appliance connector, you're looking up the wrong end of the horse referring to gas-tite's CSST gas line info!

Next, you are equally ambiguous about the circumstances of the installation. I suggest you do some searches and review other topics regarding "gas appliance connector"s and CSST as well as gas fireplaces, inserts, log-sets, and lighters. Afterwards, if you still have questions, give us the appropriate details/circumstances of the installation (precise) and then you can be pointed to a more accurate and specific to your circumstances, response.

Rick
I didn't find your question ambiguous in the least. I fully understood your post, probably because I have installed several gas log sets over the years and inspected many more. The flex line you referred to is typically provided (with the set) by most gas log set manufacturers for the intended installation. Instructions usually show the flex line routed within the firebox to an appropriate solid pipe stub-out on the side-wall of the firebox, using approved connections - sometimes supplied. The instructions make no mention of protecting the flex from potential heat damage, other than routing it behind the tray and grate the logs sit on. One can only assume that this application has gone through rigorous testing to ensure safety, imagine the lawsuits otherwise. Of course this is assuming the flex line you saw was undamaged and the one which came with the original set and approved for the intended application. AND the control valve is outside the box.

More recently the supplied flex line has been replaced with a pliable tube, which helps to eliminate a 'whistling' noise sometimes heard when the gas is carried by the flex line and affords a little more rigidity but the connections and application remains the same. I wouldn't have called it out as a 'repair' though the flex could be replaced with tubing, available at Fireplace retailers etc. Assuming no other issues, the sooty ceramic logs is pretty typical following heavy useage - they just need to be rinsed off (and dried before re-use) from time to time.

ip

Ian,

Appreciate the helpful information. I seemed to recall from a guest speaker our chapter had that there should never be soot on the logs. The soot indicated a poor burn or flame impingement on the logs and CO was a by-product. I usually call it out. Is it normal?


Thanks

//Rick

Originally Posted by Rick Bunzel

Ian,

Appreciate the helpful information. I seemed to recall from a guest speaker our chapter had that there should never be soot on the logs. The soot indicated a poor burn or flame impingement on the logs and CO was a by-product. I usually call it out. Is it normal?


Thanks

//Rick

If they are vented logs then the soot is OK and pretty much a normal thing with vented gas logs. With unvented you do not want to see the soot. CO is going to be produced no matter if you see the soot or not. Yes, more CO is produced when you see the soot. Even with unvented CO is produced, one reason that all ventless logs say to burn only with a window open!

Rick,

How would you not have impingement on the gas logs? And what about a wood burning fire - I wouldn't expect that to be CO free. I honestly don't see an issue if things are properly vented and drafting.

I disagree. Sooting (or as Bob Harper, Dale, etc. would call it "Black Particulate Matter) is a problem for a vent free gas log set /and potentially a danger sign.

It is only "normal" as an indication of an improperly set up or maintained condition. Over firing, improper placement, missing media, incomplete combustion.

However, we have no information, nor a picture on this theoretical "firebox" or gas log set and I don't recall the OP indicating it was vented. for that matter we have no listing information or identifying information whatsoever.

P.S. At a minimum, a Level II inspection by a fireplace professional is warranted whenever a property may change hands. If the gas log set is unlisted it should be removed.

Scott - You are correct about the vented Vs un-vented. I should have mentioned it in my post, thank you.

Even on vented sets sooting...or 'black particulate matter' is pretty much inevitable in a firebox - the cause, location and degree are the variables. Sooting on gas logs is pretty normal, but that also depends on to what degree, how quickly it formed and its cause. It occurs on the areas of the logs which are not heated to the same intensity as areas in direct blue flame contact. Placement of the logs and other supplied non-combustable, pursuant to manufs. instructions, should help. An 'excessive soot' call is somewhat subjective. I doubt anyone would call out nominal sooting on the back and sides of the firebox - not necessarily as a 'repair' but more likely as a maintenance item. I have yet to see any actively used firebox, with or without gas logs, which is not sooted to some degree. Requiring further inspection by a 'fireplace professional' because of it or, "...whenever the property changes hands..." is, IMO, a little OTT unless it is excessive (subjective) or there are other issues. In any event, in this instance the box was serviced by a HVAC technician - who, for all we know is/was a fireplace specialist. Never-the-less recommending further review may be your SOP, fallback position.

The real danger - assuming no observable damage or detrioration to the firebox - and warranting further professional attention - is the accumulation of BPM formed in the throat and flue, which is largely unseen and could ignite. Typical gas log sets, versus wood/coal burning add significantly less (BPM). Of course unlisted log sets should be identified, if possible, but finding a UL tag in a actively used fire log set may not be that easy or something a HI would want to do.

Rick - if you recall, were there glass screen doors on the firebox?

ip

Yes there were glass doors and this was a vented pre-fab gas fireplace. Here is a picture of the fireplace from the original inspection report.

//Rick

See page 22 from this Vermont castings Manuel.
I see nothing wrong with using flex in the firebox.
Furnace is different because of possible mechanical damage.

http://literature.mhsc.com/vermont_c...93_VHLDV_2.pdf

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

If they are vented logs then the soot is OK and pretty much a normal thing with vented gas logs. With unvented you do not want to see the soot. CO is going to be produced no matter if you see the soot or not. Yes, more CO is produced when you see the soot. Even with unvented CO is produced, one reason that all ventless logs say to burn only with a window open!

The main reason for opening a window is for proper combustion air. Lack of combustion air = CO production and sooting. I'm not a gas appliance expert, but if combustion is complete, there will be no CO produced, that's a simple fact of chemistry that I have verified often with my CO meter.
When I see sooting, it is usually due to the "logs" being installed improperly. People pull them apart to light the pilot or clean and don't remember how they go back. It's quite a puzzle sometimes and you really need the manual.

We still do not have clear information on what this installation is but I'll try to comment on it.

This appears to be a factory built woodburning fireplace with vented gas logs. The logset appears to be too close to the opening, which could be a fire/ soot/ CO hazard. It does appear to have the mfrs. listed doors. I don't see an approved shutoff but there could be one elsewhere. The hearth extension does not appear to have its proper thermal floor protection if this is a combustible floor.

Guys, when you encounter installations such as this, you really should document make, model and serial number of the fireplace and the gas appliance. Also note the listing of the fireplace and gas burner. If there is a gas line present, you should accurately document the type, diameter, and class. In general, no flex gas line or copper tubing should come in direct contact with heat or flame. You should also note if the gas line penetraton is sealed or not.

If the gas burner is ventfree, you would need to determine if that factory built fireplace is tested and listed for use with VF. VF also usually require a large ugly canopy or hood to protect the mantel. Some fireplaces are not approved with ventfree logs. Fireplaces built before May 1999 can not possibly be listed for use with ventfree logs.

Recommend a Level II by an inspector qualfied in gas and wood, such as the NFI certs or F.I.R.E Inspector.

Yes, you can have soot on most gas logs except VF. However, the degree, location and type of soot may be a problem or a harbinger of another problem.

HTH,

"Vent Free" cracks me up, like its a good thing, like "fat free".

Rick

It looks like the glass doors are sooted and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the gas logs were operated with the doors closed (and with the log set too close to them). The air in-take grill may also be clogged. Both factors will significantly reduce the available combustion air. As Ben pointed out, "...lack of combustuion air = CO production and sooting..."

Re. the flex line. If it's the original supplied equipment or an approved/listed connection then it should be routed outside the log-set pan. Most log-sets can be changed during install to accommodate left or right gas stub-out.

ip

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

Recommend a Level II by an inspector qualfied in gas and wood, such as the NFI certs or F.I.R.E Inspector.

Bob,

What is "NFI"?

There are some condos where I do AHJ inspections which have (the ones I've seen) rusted out metal chimney sections, I will be requiring the condo association to abandon and remove (which also means fireblocking the holes in the floors where the chimneys go through floor-to-floor) all of them which cannot be certified as safe by a Level II or Level III inspection - I was going to recommend the inspections be done by a F.I.R.E. or CSI (or whatever that designation is for the Chimney Sweep Institute) certified inspector.

Is there a place I can review what a Level I, Level II, and Level III inspection criteria?

Level II is just a camera scope down the chimney, right?

Level III is Level II plus looking at the exterior of the chimney too (means removing whatever needs to be removed to access the chimney?).

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Bob,

What is "NFI"? (see note 1)

There are some condos where I do AHJ inspections which have (the ones I've seen) rusted out metal chimney sections, I will be requiring the condo association to abandon and remove (which also means fireblocking the holes in the floors where the chimneys go through floor-to-floor) all of them which cannot be certified as safe by a Level II or Level III inspection - I was going to recommend the inspections be done by a F.I.R.E. or CSI (or whatever that designation is for the Chimney Sweep Institute) certified inspector.

Is there a place I can review what a Level I, Level II, and Level III inspection criteria? (see note 2)

Level II is just a camera scope down the chimney, right? (see note 3)

Level III is Level II plus looking at the exterior of the chimney too (means removing whatever needs to be removed to access the chimney?) (see note 4).

Not Bob H., but I'll throw it out there for timeliness.
Note 1:
Bob's reference to "NFI Certs" = "National Fireplace Institute" Technicians Certified in the relevant areas for a particular installation/circumstance.

NFI and FIRE Certs are much more extensive IMO than CSIA.
Note 2:
You can review the basics of a Level I, II, and III chimney inspection, and the table indications in the NFPA standard/Code already referenced. Both NFPA 54 and NFPA 211 are available to read only mode for free at NFPA.org. 2010 NFPA 211 Chapters 13, Maintenance; and Chapter 14 Inspections; are where you might want to start keeping in mind they are based upon and build upon information in prior chapters.

Note 3:
No, not right, not just.

The specifics of evaluation, testing, inspection, etc. varies depending on the circumstances and nature of the equipment and how it "presents" itself.

It begins with proper identification and works forward from there.

Note 4:
Not exactly, no. See references from Note 2 and Note 3.

To H.G.;
1-yep
2-yep
3-yep
4-yep on all your points.

I'm sure you'll get some squealing from the Chimney Safety Institute of America (CSIA) on my views but that's nothing new. I hear they are FINALLY changing their program to incorporate some of the IRC and maybe some didactic instruction. However, it took them 30 yrs to get to that point that the F.I.R.E. Service reached right out of the starting gate 11 yrs ago.

The NFI certs are geared towards basic information on factory built hearth appliances by fuel types: wood, gas and pellet. They do not address masonry chimneys hardly at all. This is a program born out of a mfrs trade assn. but now is totally separate with a life all its own with no accountability to the industry. The BoD elects itself and they hear only what they want to.

The CSIA's Certified Chimney Sweep program is geared towards maintenance of fireplaces and chimneys that primarily serve solid fuels. While for years this cert. has referenced NFPA 211, it did not teach inspections or the code.

The Fireplace Investigation Research Education Foundation's Certified Inspector program is and always has been a 5.5 day hands-on course of education and instruction in inspecting chimneys vents, fireplaces, gas combustion appliances, oil fired appliances, pellet stoves, boilers and so on. It is THE most comprehensive and credible chimney inspection program available. There are not many certified inspectors current, which is a shame.

A level I inspection is basically your annual checkup where nothing much has changed from last year such as fuel type, efficiency, etc.
Level II is the standard for first time inspections, real estate sales or transfers or in the event of an incident or suspected problem. If you change fuel types, efficiencies or other criteria, you should perform a level II inspection. A level II may include video scanning "or other means necessary".
A level III inspection involves damage to permanent construction. It may be very simple such as hammer drilling a wall looking for combustible sawdust or it may mean demolition or major surgery.

The indications, scope, etc. for each level of inspection is found in Ch. 14 of NFPA 211 current edition.
HTH,

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

To H.G.;
1-yep
2-yep
3-yep
4-yep on all your points.

I'm sure you'll get some squealing from the Chimney Safety Institute of America (CSIA) on my views but that's nothing new. I hear they are FINALLY changing their program to incorporate some of the IRC and maybe some didactic instruction. However, it took them 30 yrs to get to that point that the F.I.R.E. Service reached right out of the starting gate 11 yrs ago.

The NFI certs are geared towards basic information on factory built hearth appliances by fuel types: wood, gas and pellet. They do not address masonry chimneys hardly at all. This is a program born out of a mfrs trade assn. but now is totally separate with a life all its own with no accountability to the industry. The BoD elects itself and they hear only what they want to.

The CSIA's Certified Chimney Sweep program is geared towards maintenance of fireplaces and chimneys that primarily serve solid fuels. While for years this cert. has referenced NFPA 211, it did not teach inspections or the code.

The Fireplace Investigation Research Education Foundation's Certified Inspector program is and always has been a 5.5 day hands-on course of education and instruction in inspecting chimneys vents, fireplaces, gas combustion appliances, oil fired appliances, pellet stoves, boilers and so on. It is THE most comprehensive and credible chimney inspection program available. There are not many certified inspectors current, which is a shame.

A level I inspection is basically your annual checkup where nothing much has changed from last year such as fuel type, efficiency, etc.
Level II is the standard for first time inspections, real estate sales or transfers or in the event of an incident or suspected problem. If you change fuel types, efficiencies or other criteria, you should perform a level II inspection. A level II may include video scanning "or other means necessary".
A level III inspection involves damage to permanent construction. It may be very simple such as hammer drilling a wall looking for combustible sawdust or it may mean demolition or major surgery.

The indications, scope, etc. for each level of inspection is found in Ch. 14 of NFPA 211 current edition.
HTH,

Bob, with all due respect, I disagree. What you may call squealing I will call setting the record straight. I believe you are aware that CSIA has included inspections in their certification from the beginning. They are responsible for defining, submitting and inclusion of the chimney inspection process found in the NFPA 211, the first such offering of it's kind.

While we have used the NFPA for installation details for all appliances and fuels in the past, it is true that a couple of years ago we initiated a second exam for the CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep credential that requires the candidate to find the appropriate material in the International Residential Code (IRC) in order to pass and aquire the credential.

I do not see how we could be using the NFPA 211 without having references to inspections or codes as you have suggested. There is still a focus on the inspection process in the first exam, in fact there is a complete chapter describing such in the Successful Chimney Sweeping manual that is the primary resource for that exam.

I don't believe that any of the NFI credentials spend a significant amount of time regarding conducting inspections. As you know, those programs consist entirely of a PowerPoint program with the administration of their test designed for installers. They hardly rise to the level of the CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep credential when it comes to inspections, and I doubt very much you would ever hear them suggest that it does.

You can find CSIA Certified Chimney Sweeps in your area by logging into their websie and performing a search. There are often many to chose from.

Respectfully submitted,

Ashley Eldridge
CSIA Director of Education
Chimney Safety Institute of America

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

A level I inspection is basically your annual checkup where nothing much has changed from last year such as fuel type, efficiency, etc.
Level II is the standard for first time inspections, real estate sales or transfers or in the event of an incident or suspected problem. If you change fuel types, efficiencies or other criteria, you should perform a level II inspection. A level II may include video scanning "or other means necessary".
A level III inspection involves damage to permanent construction. It may be very simple such as hammer drilling a wall looking for combustible sawdust or it may mean demolition or major surgery.

Bob,

I've seen two of the chimneys, they are factory made for factory made fireplaces. The two which I saw are totally ... and I do mean TOTALLY ... rusted out. The two I saw were in condos gutted for remodeling, the other condos are still in 'as finished' condition (given years of repainting and other minor work).

Should I start off requiring a Level III, or start off with a Level II and go to a Level III if the Level II does not provide documentation to certify the chimneys are safe to use?

The Level III would necessitate removing the the wall in front of the fireplace and chimney so it can be seen from the exterior (exterior of the chimney and fireplace). I suspect that all are in the same condition of the two I've seen.

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

The indications, scope, etc. for each level of inspection is found in Ch. 14 of NFPA 211 current edition.

I had reviewed those to a minor extent before my first post as I have the comparison table on my computer, H. G., in his usual way, presumes no one know anything and went for overkill - not complaining, just stating a fact ... however, after his post I did go on-line and review the inspection section in Chapter 14 (thank you H. G. for suggesting that, I had not yet thought of that).

From the AHJ point of view, the recommendation will be to have an engineer certify the chimneys, and recommend the Level II or III inspection. It will be up to the engineer to find and use a certified person, I was trying to find out which would be best to recommend of the engineer asks 'Who does those inspections?'

Should I recommend F.I.R.E Service certified, NFI certified, other? I may just provide them with links to those web sites and let them research it.

JP, without seeing the installations, my default is always to start with a level II inspection, which may or may not lead to a call for a level III. If those chimenys are so rusted out, a level III may be a moot point. If you know they are going to be replaced, then the replacement process becomes a level III.

Ashley, I don't want to get into our age old battle here again but I do think I need to clarify a few points. First of all, I see the NFI certification, not as a credential for comprehensive inspection but as a basic familiarization of hearth appliances to complement the inspection process. I like your point though as I can hardly see the CSIA Cert. rise to the level of a F.I.R.E. certification when it comes to inspections--one chapter you read in a book versus a 5.5 day course of hands on training and testing.

I see the CSIA Certification as a *service* certification with a touch of inspection information. However, in your own words, you only devote one chaper in your manual to the inspection process. By the way, I find it odd that the Director of Education for the much vaunted CSIA still has not yet taken the most comprehensive training available on inspection of chimneys and fireplaces. Why is this? Are you afraid of what you'll find in Dale Feb's course or is it just the politics because the NCSG/ CSIA view Dale as a competitor even though he still condones and endorses your programs while you continue to put him down and reject him? He did get the CSIA certification but allowed it to expire when he was openly laughed at in a deposition for claiming your certification. It actually hurt his credibility so he has since dropped it.

Your recent inclusions of the IRC were done ONLY in response to Dale's certification program. You saw no need to study the codes or how to apply them for 27 years. The CSIA should make up their mind. Either they are in the business of promoting chimney safety from ALL angles and aspects or concentrate on service and let others handle the inspection piece. BTW, how come the CSIA does not teach service of hearth appliances as part of their certificaiton?

Have a good day,
Bob

Other than the obvious visible issues a full chimney inspection of any kind is beyond the scope of a Home Inspector.

We all love to impress with our great knowledge here but how about a common sense approach of recommending Level 2 inspection and if a Level 3 is needed the chimney Sweep who is better equipped to decide can recommend it.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Other than the obvious visible issues a full chimney inspection of any kind is beyond the scope of a Home Inspector.

We all love to impress with our great knowledge here but how about a common sense approach of recommending Level 2 inspection and if a Level 3 is needed the chimney Sweep who is better equipped to decide can recommend it.

That always seemed a bit CYA to me but probably makes good sense. I'd be interested in how many always recommend a level 2 inspection with a wood or gas fireplace? I usually don't but maybe should start.
If anybody has any wording that makes it sound not completely CYA, post it for our benefit.

Something like: (??)
The interior of the chimney is one of the least accessible and least visible components of the home. It is also one of the most

critical in terms of fire safety. Removal of the chimney cap or weather cap is beyond the scope of my inspection as is interior

chimney inspection. Inspection requires certain certifications and equipment and is a specialty in itself. Due to the potential hazards, I

routinely recommend a level 2 inspection by a certified chimney sweep. An additional benefit to you is that the chimney will have to

be cleaned for inspection.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson

That always seemed a bit CYA to me but probably makes good sense. I'd be interested in how many always recommend a level 2 inspection with a wood or gas fireplace? I usually don't but maybe should start.
If anybody has any wording that makes it sound not completely CYA, post it for our benefit.

Something like: (??)
The interior of the chimney is one of the least accessible and least visible components of the home. It is also one of the most

critical in terms of fire safety. Removal of the chimney cap or weather cap is beyond the scope of my inspection as is interior

chimney inspection. Inspection requires certain certifications and equipment and is a specialty in itself. Due to the potential hazards, I

routinely recommend a level 2 inspection by a certified chimney sweep. An additional benefit to you is that the chimney will have to

be cleaned for inspection.

Here you go Ben....
(referral)It is impossible for a home inspection to determine with any
degree of certainty whether the flue is free of
defects. In accordance with recommendations made by the National Fire
Prevention Association to have all
chimneys inspected before buying a home, you should consider having a
Certified Chimney Specialist
conduct a Level II inspection of the chimney flue prior to close of
escrow.
A Level II inspection is very comprehensive and can better determine the
condition of the flue than can a
limited generalist inspection or a Level I chimney inspection

....And just which party (seller or buyer) is going to pay for that Chimney Inspection? The real estate transaction can be quite a tenuous and costly affair with certain time constraints. In CA, once an offer has been accepted the buyer usually has ten days to complete all inspections (additional time could be requested and permitted but it may not be in the seller's best interests to prolong the process). Furthermore, though such inspections would be beneficial all around, if the seller has had no problems with the chimney/fireplace etc. - perhaps they use the fireplace infrequently - then they will be reluctant to spend money on something which may not be to their benefit. Significant hidden issues may be discovered, which once identified, will have to be disclosed and likely repaired and the 'would-be buyer' may just walk away from the deal.

The buyer is unlikely to pay for any further inspection requiring cleaning the chimney, which could be for the sole benefit of the seller if the buyer walks away. Splitting the costs (I have no idea how much we are talking about) shares the same problematic issues, with both parties incurring some financial burden.

This is yet another classic case of 'caveat emptor' ... let the buyer beware...as many issues in a Home Inspection are. A simple warning to the buyer that, "The fireplace/chimney has undergone a cursory examination (with or without discovered issues) but such inspection is not conclusive and further examination by a fully qualified specialist is both recommended and compliant with Fire Safety regulations." Obviously if problems are observed they would be identified and reported on, giving further validity to the recommendation.

ip

Originally Posted by Ian Page

....And just which party (seller or buyer) is going to pay for that Chimney Inspection? The real estate transaction can be quite a tenuous and costly affair with certain time constraints. In CA, once an offer has been accepted the buyer usually has ten days to complete all inspections (additional time could be requested and permitted but it may not be in the seller's best interests to prolong the process). Furthermore, though such inspections would be beneficial all around, if the seller has had no problems with the chimney/fireplace etc. - perhaps they use the fireplace infrequently - then they will be reluctant to spend money on something which may not be to their benefit. Significant hidden issues may be discovered, which once identified, will have to be disclosed and likely repaired and the 'would-be buyer' may just walk away from the deal.

The buyer is unlikely to pay for any further inspection requiring cleaning the chimney, which could be for the sole benefit of the seller if the buyer walks away. Splitting the costs (I have no idea how much we are talking about) shares the same problematic issues, with both parties incurring some financial burden.

This is yet another classic case of 'caveat emptor' ... let the buyer beware...as many issues in a Home Inspection are. A simple warning to the buyer that, "The fireplace/chimney has undergone a cursory examination (with or without discovered issues) but such inspection is not conclusive and further examination by a fully qualified specialist is both recommended and compliant with Fire Safety regulations." Obviously if problems are observed they would be identified and reported on, giving further validity to the recommendation.

ip

Ian are you giving an all clear to chimney's ?
I hope not unless you are performing a video scan.

General Home Inspection includes recommendations of specialists all the time and it has a lot more to do with the report other than CYA.
I also recommend a HVAC tech examine the furnace if there is no record of a regular maintenance check not to mention it would be silly to think any of us are inspecting the A/C portion of a typical split system in winter unless in a warm climate.
The flues should have a good checkup and all we can do is look for obvious issues much like with furnaces unless you have proper equipment and go above SOP of any state or association.

I have no way to video scan or inspect exchangers in furnaces either so yes you must CYA and give good advice or simply play the odds and hope your guess is never wrong.

In answer to the original question, I thought I might provide some requirements for product manufacturing. I recently assisted in the development of a high efficiency log burning system. We attempted to have this stainless steel tubing approved for connection of this product but failed to do so. The following might enlighten why.

CSA STANDARDS INTERIM REQUIREMENT 8.93
FOR GAS-FIRED LOG LIGHTERS FOR WOOD BURNING FIREPLACES
2nd Edition, August 26, 2009

1.17 Gas Supply Lines
The following construction provisions apply to the gas supply lines within an appliance.

1.17.3
Series 300 stainless steel corrugated tubing used as part of a manifold assembly shall not be
exposed to temperatures in excess of 900°F (482°C) when the appliance is operated as specified
in 2.11, Handle and Component Temperatures. The tubing shall demonstrate compliance with the Tubing Structure, Bending Test, and Bursting Test requirements specified in the American
National Standard/Canadian Gas Association Standard for Metal Connectors for Gas
Appliances, Z21.24 • CGA 5.10.

1.17.6
Tubing and fittings used as gas conduits shall be capable of withstanding a temperature of
1,000°F (538°C) without melting.

1.17.9
Gas supply piping to which connections are made for burners, pilots, lighters or other branch
supply lines shall be readily removable, yet rigidly supported, to prevent turning or lateral
displacement in making connection to the building piping or during the ordinary handling of the
appliance.

In response to the inspection recommendations. I would think that it would be obvious. As a recognized expert, I have worked with and against a wide variety of educated Engineers, Contractors, Sweeps and Inspectors. In all cases, there is no exception to professional education and experience. I have overridden many engineers who were not qualified to testify on a hearth product. It is experience, professional training and all the continuing education that makes a professional.

If you want to refer a chimney sweep then do your homework. Just because he has been sweeping for thirty years does not necessarily qualify him/her to inspect. Believe me… I hear this all the time “I have been installing these systems for thirty years”. My response is always the same “then you have been doing it wrong for thirty years, do you have a list of the other properties you have worked on?” Have they taken any outside classes? Do they continue to obtain secondary education? Do they obtain this education from several sources or just one? Do they have more then one certification? Do they really know the information or do they know misinformation?

Thank GOD that times are changing. This change however has been at the response to outside professional education providers such as the F.I.R.E. Service. When professional education that included the building codes and other necessary information arrived, it changed the industry for the better. However, not long ago (1997) I provided a presentation to 57 chimneys in California. I asked a simple question, “What codes or standards do you base your servicing or inspecting on for these systems?” Not a single individual knew what the Uniform Building Code was. No one had a copy. I had to give out the contact information so they could purchase these codes. This was the turning point and the start of the F.I.R.E. Inspector Certification.

I was not long ago that the claimed best of the sweeping industry was preaching to all NCSG Members “Do not call it an Inspection, it is simply an Evaluation”. This was until they realized the financial gains available with an inspection. And don’t forget all the useful information on Key Words to use to Trigger the Insurance Claims.

Know it’s simple to claim others work, and to say that you are the ones to do the job. But it may be just a sale. In fact Ashley was partially correct on his claim to fame with the NFPA 211. The problem is that the CSIA and certain individuals claimed all work product when MANY individual professionals participated in the drafting of that document. Two of which are Mr. Bob Harper and Myself.

Now with all that said and the many future opinions from frustrated, uneducated individuals within the hearth industry, let me tell you that there are sweeps qualified to perform these inspections. There are also a few certified assholes. But the CSIA Sweeping Certification is NOT an Inspection Certification. We have a ton of professionals that work the hearth industry. It is your job to qualify your local claimed professional. What certifications do they have? Do they have any inspection certifications? Do they have any installing certifications? Do they have any sweeping or technician certifications? You must do your homework to better serve your client. The ASHI standards state that you must give direction to your client. Choose wisely or accept the results.

It has been the direction of the F.I.R.E. Service to recommend ALL of these certifications from day one! Unfortunately, individuals (not the mass) within the sweeping industry have claimed their certification to be IT. These are individuals that work or had planned to work for a specific Non-Profit Organization and intended on using this Corp as a retirement program. They have lost many friends along the way and selfishly hurt the hearth industry. An open book section on the current building codes does not qualify you to be an inspector. My young son can find sections in the code book. But he is not certified or qualified to be an inspector.

If you recommend a certified inspector and your client hires a certified sweep, your liability is greatly reduced. They did not follow your direction. However, if you recommend a certified sweep to perform an inspection, and your client hires an unqualified individual, well…you do the math.

As for the Levels of Inspection:

Level I
A Level I inspection should be considered a secondary service. An example would be that someone calls for a sweeping service. The chimney sweep comes out to service this unit. During the process of that service he/she must share their observations of any potential hazard or concerning conditions viewed within the area of the service. They are not required to go onto the roof, into the attic or enter the basement or craw space.

Level II
A Level II inspection is a fair assessment of the entire system based on access and visible conditions without the removal or damage of building components (drywall, masonry, etc) as a result of such removal. The use of a chimney camera is optional, however, recommended. You are required to access roof tops, attics, craw spaces, basement whenever reasonable and safe to do so.

Level III
A Level III inspection includes the removal of enough building product to obtain a full inspection of the entire system. As suggested within the 211 standards, you can perform part of the next Level without calling it that level. In other words, you can perform a Level II inspection and knock a hole in the wall to check something without calling it a Level III inspection.

I think I have said enough at this time. I suspect there will be responses from those frustrated individuals I spoke about earlier, but I have grown tired of the misinformation and BS thrown around. I apologize to those who may be offended by this unnecessary nonsense.

On a positive note; we have a new 8-hour class. It is the Registered Hearth Advisor. The first class will be in Woodbridge Virginia, February 26, 2011. This will be for the NOVA ASHI group. For more information on this class contact David P. Rushton with ABLE Building Inspection, Inc.@ 540-636-6200. For any additional dates or requests please contact our office at 805-552-9958 or email at FireService@earthlink.net.

I apologize for the time I have been away.

Dale W. Feb

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Ian are you giving an all clear to chimney's ?

Not at all what he said..... and I agree completely with what he did say.

Too many times (on this board mainly) some issue comes up and the easy answer is "get an engineer to look at the perfectly performing trusses" or "have a level 17 inspection of the perfectly performing flue done".

It makes me wonder what world some of you guys inspect in. In the world I work in I would never work if I inspected like this. The fear mongering in this profession (and again on this board) is just over the top. Does anyone remember the fact that HIs are not responsible for the interior conditions of flues?

So, if we're recommending an inspection of the inside of every flue I hope we're also recommending all the drywall be removed so we can evaluate the framing of the house. And, all the floor coverings be torn up so we can looke at the slab or deck. So, where do some of you stop?

SOPs are minimal, yes. But there are some good things in there, too. Like what we're not responsible for. I know it's easy (and tempting) on in internet chat board to look you know everything and are the perfect inspector but come on.....

Bob E: I'm not targeting my rant towards you at all.... your post just happened to be the last thing I read

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Not at all what he said..... and I agree completely with what he did say.

Too many times (on this board mainly) some issue comes up and the easy answer is "get an engineer to look at the perfectly performing trusses" or "have a level 17 inspection of the perfectly performing flue done".

It makes me wonder what world some of you guys inspect in. In the world I work in I would never work if I inspected like this. The fear mongering in this profession (and again on this board) is just over the top. Does anyone remember the fact that HIs are not responsible for the interior conditions of flues?

So, if we're recommending an inspection of the inside of every flue I hope we're also recommending all the drywall be removed so we can evaluate the framing of the house. And, all the floor coverings be torn up so we can looke at the slab or deck. So, where do some of you stop?

SOPs are minimal, yes. But there are some good things in there, too. Like what we're not responsible for. I know it's easy (and tempting) on in internet chat board to look you know everything and are the perfect inspector but come on.....

Bob E: I'm not targeting my rant towards you at all.... your post just happened to be the last thing I read

Matt most of the Brick chimneys I see have issues,so I wonder if they are all great around you because I am sure not going to tell that family with 3 kids sleeping on the other side of the chimney wall that it is OK when I have no idea and I know that unless you have a video scan method to share with us there is no way you can tell and it is our duty to recommend a level two inspection if not performed on a periodic basis already.
How often do you feel a certified inspection should take place and are you certified to perform such an inspection ?
Not coming down on you either Matt but are you telling all of us that you carry no dis-claimers at all and just hope for the good in human nature?

McDonalds will tell you a few things about dis-claimers if you read the coffee cup.
Now before you get mad enough to get nasty (hoping not) please read this fast article by a Home Inspection Lawyer.The Home Inspector Lawyer: How to Use the Disclaimer

Certain things need to be done by the home owner beyond an general HI or we would not even have aux services,correct?

A $300-$500 basic home inspection only gets you so much with no Xrays specs and we need to relay that to our clients.
I am always upfront in letting clients no I am not perfect and in a short 3 hour average inspection am bound to miss something but hope it is a small item.

Anyone claiming to inspect (fully) every system and component is lying.
that's my whole point and i bet most get it including you Matt.
Perhaps you read me wrong.

Bob - I am absolutely not giving the 'all clear' to all and any chimney, hearth, fire-box or any installation associated therewith. I am merely pointing out that a home inspection is performed by a Generalist with a level of expertise associated with inspecting many homes and the issues therein. Some (many) Inspectors have a level of experience in certain areas within the property far and above other Inspectors but that does not necessarily make the overall inspection any more complete or proficient.

Chimney inspections - along with other sub-set inspection/evaluations (HVAC/Electric/S.E. etc) have a place in the real estate transaction but it is the buyer's responsibility to engage such. The HI's responsibility largely ends with advising his/her client to seek further evaluation if they see fit, largely based on observable deficiencies, and include as much in the report. An HI's 'expertise' can go along way toward identifying hidden issues or allaying any fears the buyer may have but when all is said and done the transaction should still be 'buyer beware'. We should strive to do the best we can within the limitations and scope of the inspection and that should be clearly pointed out to the client at the onset.

Yes, I recommend further evaluation on many issues, on a case by case basis but to suggest to a client that the chimney needs futher evaluation by a qualified and competant chimney certified expert before the deal is done, just because, does the average HI a dis-service. Should that be the case I would expect many transactions to fall through - perhaps a good thing - but that is simply unrealistic. Conversely an observed defect or abnormality clearly requires further review and should be recommended. I do not hold myself out to be an expert in any field of the home inspection. My clients are made fully aware of such and continue on with that knowledge. At some point we have to recognize that the buyer/client must take responsibility for themselves and we, as Inspectors, are simply providing information enabling them to make that determination. After which, the ball, as they say, is in their court...

Originally Posted by Ian Page

Bob - I am absolutely not giving the 'all clear' to all and any chimney, hearth, fire-box or any installation associated therewith. I am merely pointing out that a home inspection is performed by a Generalist with a level of expertise associated with inspecting many homes and the issues therein. Some (many) Inspectors have a level of experience in certain areas within the property far and above other Inspectors but that does not necessarily make the overall inspection any more complete or proficient.

Chimney inspections - along with other sub-set inspection/evaluations (HVAC/Electric/S.E. etc) have a place in the real estate transaction but it is the buyer's responsibility to engage such. The HI's responsibility largely ends with advising his/her client to seek further evaluation if they see fit, largely based on observable deficiencies, and include as much in the report. An HI's 'expertise' can go along way toward identifying hidden issues or allaying any fears the buyer may have but when all is said and done the transaction should still be 'buyer beware'. We should strive to do the best we can within the limitations and scope of the inspection and that should be clearly pointed out to the client at the onset.

Yes, I recommend further evaluation on many issues, on a case by case basis but to suggest to a client that the chimney needs futher evaluation by a qualified and competant chimney certified expert before the deal is done, just because, does the average HI a dis-service. Should that be the case I would expect many transactions to fall through - perhaps a good thing - but that is simply unrealistic. Conversely an observed defect or abnormality clearly requires further review and should be recommended. I do not hold myself out to be an expert in any field of the home inspection. My clients are made fully aware of such and continue on with that knowledge. At some point we have to recognize that the buyer/client must take responsibility for themselves and we, as Inspectors, are simply providing information enabling them to make that determination. After which, the ball, as they say, is in their court...

Sure I can not argue your statement any more than my own and every property is a different set of circumstances such as last week when someone had sealed the clean -out door at a chimney with masonry patch.I can not count how many times I have opened those doors and found fallen sections of clay tile and bricks but not being able to see this and in a situation like that what would you say in the report?

Not sure about other areas but deterioration is almost the norm around here.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Bob,

I've seen two of the chimneys, they are factory made for factory made fireplaces. The two which I saw are totally ... and I do mean TOTALLY ... rusted out. The two I saw were in condos gutted for remodeling, the other condos are still in 'as finished' condition (given years of repainting and other minor work).

Should I start off requiring a Level III, or start off with a Level II and go to a Level III if the Level II does not provide documentation to certify the chimneys are safe to use?

The Level III would necessitate removing the the wall in front of the fireplace and chimney so it can be seen from the exterior (exterior of the chimney and fireplace). I suspect that all are in the same condition of the two I've seen.



I had reviewed those to a minor extent before my first post as I have the comparison table on my computer, H. G., in his usual way, presumes no one know anything and went for overkill - not complaining, just stating a fact ... however, after his post I did go on-line and review the inspection section in Chapter 14 (thank you H. G. for suggesting that, I had not yet thought of that).

From the AHJ point of view, the recommendation will be to have an engineer certify the chimneys, and recommend the Level II or III inspection. It will be up to the engineer to find and use a certified person, I was trying to find out which would be best to recommend of the engineer asks 'Who does those inspections?'

Should I recommend F.I.R.E Service certified, NFI certified, other? I may just provide them with links to those web sites and let them research it.

Couldn't pass up the chance to bite the hand that feeds you. How's that for ending the year on a typical J.P. Sour note.

You continue to ask the same questions, so obviously something lacking in what "you think you know"!

You are describing FAILUES, and apparently endemic in these "condos" all apparently "as built" (assumed) at a particular moment in time, and sharing similar management control, building maintenance, exposure common elements and limited common elements.

Therefore MORE than a mere determination of the condition/status of the gas vents is required.

An analysis, investigation, as to the CAUSE(S) are required.

Whether there has been some sort of building modifications, the "systems" were improperly installed, fitted, maintained, sized correctly, etc. Whether or not there are a host of possible issues involved needs to be analyized, and not merely on an "individual" or "as thought to be needed" basis.

For such a circumstance this involves reviewing a host of things for the buildings themselves, in addition to the individual areas where the vents are installed, the vent installations themselves, as well as the appliances they are fitted to.

Review for overfiring/pyrolisis (okay not chekcing spelling - you know what I mean), etc. needs to be done as well.

This is not a job for a chimney sweep or hearth technician, this is a job for a competant Certified Inspector and Investigator Consultant who is qualified to review and investigate the systemS failureS and who can further outline and document for the condo association what steps need to be taken to further address and can review the project as it proceeds..

I'd start with someone with a proven track record. Two such individuals have posted to this topic already.

Welcome back Dale Feb!

Have noticed some strange characters on the NFI section of your Hann Mkg pages. Been a while since any changes or updates there. Also noticed no pics viewable anymore, nor activity on the board linked from there.

Going to update it with that new course?

Curious if there is an accesible referral or verification for when others list FIRE credientials/certifications can it be verified by the average consumer, or referenced? (another web site perhaps?).

I find the map but no links (am I overlooking something?).

Thanks.

You guys always crack me up. This thread started with a question regarding a gas flex ran in the fire box. I think H.G. commented correctly (paraphrase of course) that it matters whether the flex was supplied by the manufacturer, tested and certified for the application, or supplied by the installer, which is really a flexible pipe that gas can move through safely under certain conditions.
Now there have been endless posts about soot, levels of inspections, and who knows more about codes and compliance.
Not complaining. Like I said, it's good for a laugh.

Bob
There is little doubt that the scenario you provided warrants further investigation by someone such as yourself and I would encourage my client to take that route. Having said that, if I found the clean-out door sealed and covered with stucco patch I would not make such an instrusive investigation to further the inspection. I would, in which case, report that it was sealed and make the same recommendation(s) as in my previous post and probably advise them that any use of the fireplace could be a significant safety hazard. I would also ask the Realtor(s) to question the home owner - if they can shed any light on the closure etc.

In fact a very similar issue occurred recently where the occupant had sealed the fireplace with a rough framework, duct-tape, staples and black plastic sheet (to stop any draft) and placed a large electric fire on the hearth in front of it. I advised my client that the fireplace was not inspected (per report and photos) and referred them on - as previously explained.

I am very aware that in 'earthquake country' a lot of nasty stuff (often hidden) can occur with brick chimneys and clay flues. Beyond strongly worded advice, whether any action/inaction is taken by the 'new' homeowner, assuming the deal is completed, is outside the realm of my abilities.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Welcome back Dale Feb!

Have noticed some strange characters on the NFI section of your Hann Mkg pages. Been a while since any changes or updates there. Also noticed no pics viewable anymore, nor activity on the board linked from there.

Going to update it with that new course?

Curious if there is an accesible referral or verification for when others list FIRE credientials/certifications can it be verified by the average consumer, or referenced? (another web site perhaps?).

I find the map but no links (am I overlooking something?).

Thanks.

H.G.,
Sorry for the delay. Verification of a F.I.R.E. Certified Inspector can be found on our education web site gotoFIRE.com Click on “Certified Inspector” at the home page, then “Find Inspector or Technician”. Then pick a state and check for their status. If they are still listed, then they are current.

It sounds like you might have been on our inspection/investigation site FireAssociates.org The map simply represents the states in which we have provided our consulting and investigation services.

The Fire Exchange board has had a few problems. I checked it and saw some of the hack jobs. I have not had an opportunity to spend much time there. This month I have been in Montana, Arkansas and Utah already. I go back to Arkansas soon and who knows where else before the end of the month. I have placed a request with President Obama to increase to number of hours in a day. However, I guess this great “Change” is not going to happen within his term. Not in my life time either.

Originally Posted by Dale W. Feb

H.G.,
I have placed a request with President Obama to increase to number of hours in a day. However, I guess this great “Change” is not going to happen within his term. Not in my life time either.

While you're working on that Dale, could you request they do away with messing with the time via daylight savings time?

Hank,
Great suggestion, I'll see what I can do.