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  1. #1
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    Default Functional damper.

    Is a functional damper one of the FHA/HUD minimum property standards requirements?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Functional damper.

    Vague question. Do we have to guess if pertains to primary oil fueled mechanicals (baro. damp) ? secondary coal or wood-stoves or boilers? "fireplaces" of unknown designation, appliances therein?

    If the "three S's" require the appliance, improvement, whatever, necessate then yes. The 3 S's are Safety, Security, Soundness (of the subject property improvements) Those terms mean something special to the underwriting program - esp. "security". There are (at least were) completeness requirements (percentages/ratios) also.

    Assume you're referring to a (lender) HUD Appraisal rejection or conditional report, and follow-up to same for a SFH?

    Depends. What are the specifics? What was the trigger reason or indication of a particular problem given which required a repair, alteration, or inspection? Was it specified as threatening the continued physical security of the property, protect the health and safety of the occupants, or correct physical deficiencies or conditions effecting integrity of the subject property? Completion percentage? Valuation comparable feature?



    See Appendix D, Handbook 4150.2 linked below,
    http://www.hud.gov/offices/adm/hudcl...02appdHSGH.pdf


    VC10 condition/deterioration? performance shut-down? Smoke or irregular smells emmissions? VC-11 Other Health and Safety Issues? (deficiencies)General S/S/S? Subject to repair, alteration, or inspection to eliminate condition concerns threatening the "security" of subject property?

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    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-31-2012 at 02:11 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Functional damper.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Vague question. Do we have to guess if pertains to primary oil fueled mechanicals (baro. damp) ? secondary coal or wood-stoves or boilers? "fireplaces" of unknown designation, appliances therein?

    Assume you're referring to a (lender) HUD Appraisal rejection or conditional report, and follow-up to same for a SFH?

    Depends. What are the specifics? What was the trigger reason or indication of a particular problem given which required a repair, alteration, or inspection? Was it specified as threatening the continued physical security of the property, protect the health and safety of the occupants, or correct physical deficiencies or conditions effecting integrity of the subject property? Completion percentage? Valuation comparable feature?



    See Appendix D, Handbook 4150.2 linked below,
    http://www.hud.gov/offices/adm/hudcl...02appdHSGH.pdf


    VC10 condition/deterioration? performance shut-down? Smoke or irregular smells emmissions? VC-11 Other Health and Safety Issues? (deficiencies)General S/S/S?
    Sorry, it was clear to me . It is a wood burning, site built masonry fireplace with gas logs installed. The damper is not functional and does not have a clip installed. Lender has been given the full inspection report and wants all of the items repaired that are "required by FHA guidelines" before lending the money. The buyer did not request the damper be repaired by the seller and now is in a time crunch. The question is: is a damper required by the FHA guidelines?

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Functional damper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Sorry, it was clear to me . It is a wood burning, site built masonry fireplace with gas logs installed. The damper is not functional and does not have a clip installed. Lender has been given the full inspection report and wants all of the items repaired that are "required by FHA guidelines" before lending the money. The buyer did not request the damper be repaired by the seller and now is in a time crunch. The question is: is a damper required by the FHA guidelines?
    Sorry Vern, you're just not being specific enough, and you're confusing the heck out of me. You say it is "wood burnING" yet has non-descript "gas logs installed". Secifics lacking. Not 'picking up what you're putting down'!

    The arrangement has to be corrected to the three S's and still meet appraisal value.

    You're saying the damper is not functional doesn't tell me much, especially as you reference a clip.

    The standards for safety for various listed appliances are not unknown. If the appliance has been installed in conflict with those standards for safety and/or in conflict with the manufacturer's instructions - then they must be corrected. If the appliance is unlisted it should be removed. If the appliance installation, fireplace and chimney have not been Level II inspected by a professional as per NFPA 211, it should be - as the property is changing hands.

    A certification from a professional is being sought by the lender - either that the needed repairs, alterations necessary for Safety & Security & structure, have been made and the "improvement" is certified as to functionality and value, or has been inspected and certified to meet functionality, safety, security & structure, for intended use and value.

    The usual would be for a damper to be removed, cut open, or prevented from closing/maintaining always a sufficient opening when a listed vented gas log set is installed. I remain confused by the conflicting references as to wood burnING (as in present/future) plus undefined gas log set installed, and conflicting/confusing references to non functional damper (to me suggestive of a damper which may not be closed, i.e. remaining OPEN, which would be good....and "no clip installed". Am additionally unsure if you're referring to a damper at the termination of chimney or just above the firebox.

    Again, I am sorry I am having difficulty determining just what you are trying to communicate. Specifics required. Perhaps Bob Harper can figure out just what exactly, you are trying to comunicate is present and conditions based solely on what you've said so far (no pics either).

    The Lender is looking for a certified safe/functional/ report from a specialized professional, that what is present works, is safe, installed correctly, and functions as intended, any necessary repairs, alterations, maintenance, cleaning, necessary to provide for safety has been performed, a description of what those steps were, that no further is required, and that what remains has been examined, tested, and found to be in a stable, safe, functional condition, no defects or concerns, and performs as intended, and is without hazard to persons persent or the property itself, has structural integrity, and doesn't compromise the property, etc. . C.S.I.A., F.I.R.E., Hearth Prof. or fire marshall. Level II from NFPA 211, and NFPA 54 or NFPA 31, appliance manufacturer's specifictions and approvals, and/or any other standards referenced inspection & tested, maintined, adjusted, installed, performed to as applicable, to the certification condition report having been made.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-31-2012 at 03:05 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Functional damper.

    The fireplace is made of brick and mortor with a tile flue, designed to burn wood not coal, and does have gas logs installed in the firebox. The damper, located at the smoke chamber throat, floped out of position and off its pivots when it was opened. A lot of debris in the smoke chamber and possibly corroded pivot points, prevented me from closing the damper after it was opened. If there is no requirement that there be a working damper installed, can they remove the damper plate and solve the problem?

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Functional damper.

    Vern,

    Need a complete Level II inspection (as described in NFPA 211) by a quallified professional.
    Remediation, maintenance, alteration, repair, as determed.
    Certified condition/completion report by a qualified professional.

    What you describe (limited) as to the current conditions (vague, non-descript, non-specific), will likely require more than what you minimally suggest. Without a complete inspection by a professional, it cannot be known, only that inspecting professional can attest or certify as to the inspected condition report.

    The Lender will be looking for certified post-remediation, completed correction, performance & condition report from a fireplace/chimney professional prior to closing.

    Any alterations cannot negatively effect the three S's elsewhere, compromise the minimum requirements, nor the use, value or life expectancy of the overall property/improvements being underwritten.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-31-2012 at 03:39 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Functional damper.

    Here Vern:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    ANSI Z21.60 requires the damper be fixed to maintain a minimum permanent net free opening of X amt. based upon the mfrs. specifications and the input BTU firing rate as stated in the code.

    How you achieve this is actually up to you. You can remove the damper entirely, tie the handle with wire, weld it (Mass) or use one of those clamps provided by the gas log mfr. The clamp must be located so when the damper is attempted to close, it still maintains that specified min. perm. net free opening. That means attaching it to the edge of most dampers is incorrect. I put them on the handle with the damper wide open.

    ANSI also requires some sort of screen or doors. You could use mesh curtains, screen cabinet style doors or even glass doors.

    All chimneys *should* have caps that minimize rain and animal intrusion and be stainless steel or copper. The codes don't require caps except on chimney liners and factory built fireplaces. I unplug a lot of heater flues that have a 5 foot plug of animal nesting in them.

    The gas logset should have an attached rating plate identifying the mfr. model, serial #, input BTU rate, fuel, orifice, and operating instructions as well as a listing mark from an approved testing lab. If you don't find this info. I would recommend removal.

    The fireplace and chimney should have a Level II inspection. They must be suitable for continued use burning wood in order to be acceptable for use with vented gas logs.

    All the other requirements still apply such as approved gas shutoff and makeup air.
    And Remember these (your discussion thread):

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post

    There is a big difference btw 'vented gas logs', which are listed to ANSI Z21.60 or Z21.84 and a 'decorative appliance' listed to ANSI Z21.50 such as this fireplace in the link. Longs are installed into a suitable woodburning fireplace.

    The thing in this brochure IS a fireplace. Self contained box, logs, gas train, integral damper w/ microswitch and venting. Vented logs require the damper be removed or fixed in such a manner as to maintain a minimum permanent net free opening of X amt. based upon the listing or the input BTU firing rate. This usually starts at 50 sq. inches, which equates to an 8" round pipe. In Mass you must remove the damper or weld it wide open. However, with a listed appliance such as the one in the link, the damper function is covered by the listing. In this case, it has an interlock to the gas control. This is usually a microswitch wired in series with the low voltage circuit. Opening the damper closes the contact and breaks on closing the damper. There are some B-vented gas fireplaces listed to ANSI Z21.50 that have a bimetal butterfly damper that do not have any sort of safety interlock. These dampers are unreliable and often dangerous. They are often field installed by techs with no written instructions as to which way is up.

    If you locate the rating plate and photograph it, it will save you a lot of hassles and worry down the road.

    HTH,
    Bob
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    If its like the two pdf's HG posted then they are 'gas appliances' and NOT vented gas logs so a damper clamp would NOT be indicated. You guys keep grasping for straws. Find the rating plate with the ANSI std. and that will tell you what you're dealing with. On these B-vented gas fireplaces, it is usually found under the main firebox floor by moving some volcanic rock and opening the access panel. It should be a sticker on the floor the of the firebox, a metal tag chained to the box or a sticker on the underside of the access panel. Otherwise, it would be as with woodburners as a metal tag pop riveted either on the smoke shield, inside firebox side panels above the refractory walls or out front on the ventilation louvers to either side.

    Keep in mind the clamp is provided by vented log mfrs. as a convenience and to cover their butts. You can remove the damper or find other means acceptable to the AHJ but the important thing is that it is placed to maintain a minimum permanent net free opening as prescribed in the codes or in the listed instructions, which ever is more restrictive. That usually means wide open btw
    HTH. The Lender needs a pro's certified condition report attesting to the safety & correctness of the installation (post-inspection and remediation).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-31-2012 at 04:21 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Functional damper.

    Thanks H.G.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

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