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  1. #1
    Clay White's Avatar
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    Default Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Last edited by Clay White; 01-02-2008 at 10:21 AM.
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  2. #2
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Clay:

    The unit must have a gas shut-off valve in the same room.

    Aaron


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Clay:

    The unit must have a gas shut-off valve in the same room.

    Aaron
    Sort-of, but not always ... see the exception ... when the exception requirements are met.

    From the IRC. (underlining is mine)

    - G2420.5 (409.5) Equipment shutoff valve.
    Each appliance shall be provided with a shutoff valve separate from the appliance. The shutoff valve shall be located in the same room as the appliance, not further than 6 feet (1829 mm) from the appliance, and shall be installed upstream from the union, connector or quick disconnect device it serves. Such shutoff valves shall be provided with access.
    - - Exception:
    Shutoff valves for vented decorative appliances and decorative appliances for installation in vented fireplaces shall not be prohibited from being installed in an area remote from the appliance where such valves are provided with ready access. Such valves shall be permanently identified and shall serve no other equipment.
    - - G2420.5.1 (409.5.1) Shutoff valve in fireplace. Equipment shutoff valves located in the firebox of a fireplace shall be installed in accordance with the appliance manufacturer’s instructions.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  4. #4
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Sort-of, but not always ... see the exception ... when the exception requirements are met.

    From the IRC. (underlining is mine)

    - G2420.5 (409.5) Equipment shutoff valve.
    Each appliance shall be provided with a shutoff valve separate from the appliance. The shutoff valve shall be located in the same room as the appliance, not further than 6 feet (1829 mm) from the appliance, and shall be installed upstream from the union, connector or quick disconnect device it serves. Such shutoff valves shall be provided with access.
    - - Exception:
    Shutoff valves for vented decorative appliances and decorative appliances for installation in vented fireplaces shall not be prohibited from being installed in an area remote from the appliance where such valves are provided with ready access. Such valves shall be permanently identified and shall serve no other equipment.

    - - G2420.5.1 (409.5.1) Shutoff valve in fireplace. Equipment shutoff valves located in the firebox of a fireplace shall be installed in accordance with the appliance manufacturer’s instructions.
    JP:

    Typical IRC doublespeak. It is an important safety factor except if the fireplace is this tall or so wide or made of ticky-tack, then it's not. Gas is gas though, well I suppose, except when it's not.

    Aaron


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    JP:

    Typical IRC doublespeak. It is an important safety factor except if the fireplace is this tall or so wide or made of ticky-tack, then it's not. Gas is gas though, well I suppose, except when it's not.

    Aaron
    Aaron,

    I think I see where the problem lies.

    The shut off valves at the equipment *are not* related to "safety" and thus are not "safety factors".

    These valves are 'service valves' which are used to turn the gas off to service or replace that specific piece of equipment (or that specific appliance).

    There is no need to have that valve 'within easy and quick reach in case of an emergency'. In case of a gas emergency, I think it was Bob H. who put it something like this, ... GET OUT! CALL 911! Call the gas company! (basically in that order).

    Forget about saving the house first, get all of you family out ... first ... pronto, then let the others save the house.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    I think I see where the problem lies.

    The shut off valves at the equipment *are not* related to "safety" and thus are not "safety factors".

    These valves are 'service valves' which are used to turn the gas off to service or replace that specific piece of equipment (or that specific appliance).

    There is no need to have that valve 'within easy and quick reach in case of an emergency'. In case of a gas emergency, I think it was Bob H. who put it something like this, ... GET OUT! CALL 911! Call the gas company! (basically in that order).

    Forget about saving the house first, get all of you family out ... first ... pronto, then let the others save the house.
    JP:

    "Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."

    T. Jefferson


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    JP:

    "Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."

    T. Jefferson
    Aaron,

    It is not *my* "opinion".

    It is "the reason" for those valves.

    You may have 'your opinion', which apparently is different, but, 'your opinion' does not hold water (so to speak) when referring to code requirements, which is where you started.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    It is not *my* "opinion".

    It is "the reason" for those valves.

    You may have 'your opinion', which apparently is different, but, 'your opinion' does not hold water (so to speak) when referring to code requirements, which is where you started.
    JP:

    That was actually Thomas Jefferson's opinion, not to put too fine a point on it.

    And, though you may not think my opinion holds water, yours does not seem to hold gas; which is what we were discussing after all . . .

    Aaron


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    JP:

    That was actually Thomas Jefferson's opinion, not to put too fine a point on it.
    Aaron,

    You weren't referring to Thomas Jefferson's opinion, you were referring to my opinion with his quote.

    Likewise, I was not referring to Thomas Jefferson's opinion, but to yours ... to clarify and put a finer point on it.

    And, though you may not think my opinion holds water, yours does not seem to hold gas; which is what we were discussing after all . . .
    We are discussing gas, yes, but you can see the gas leaking through water, and your opinion does not hold water, and thus will not know if the gas is being held or not.

    The point is (making sure the point is fine) that 'those gas valves are for service and not safety' is not *my* opinion, but the code's opinion and reason for those valves, while *it is strictly your opinion* that those valves are there for safety and emergency cut off ... *I* thought that at one time too ... then I learned more ... as I was opened minded and trying to learn ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    as I was opened minded and trying to learn ...
    JP:

    Yes, oh bellicose one . . .

    Aaron


  11. #11
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    Cool Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    As JP said:
    every appliance must have a shutoff
    IFGC allows it to be remote of a fireplace as long as it meets 3 criteria: readily accessible, serves only that appliance and is labeled.
    Shutoffs ARE for my conveniece and not emergencies.

    Do you really think the gas codes expect someone to reach into a combustible vapor cloud and operate a shutoff???

    Get out without touching any switches, phones, etc., and call the calvalry from a neighbor's house.

    FYI, I always install shutoffs at both ends of a run. I use gas cocks with a 1/8" NPT tap so I can read house line pressures. Even though remote shutoffs allowed, it makes sense to put one at the appliance. However, it does NOT have to be a key valve located outside the valve compartment. Heck, the IFGC Commentary has a photo of a Heat&Glo 8000 with the gas cock and flexible appliance connector as supplied by Dormont for HG and shipped with the unit as being perfectly acceptable.

    HTH,
    Busy Bob

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  12. #12
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    [quote=Clay White;21758]Now Jerry & Aarron. I respect your opinions and I listen loudly.....however, if you have nothing else better to do today then bicker, then how about:

    a) Flying down here and help me write 6 reports?
    b) Flying down here and help babysit my 3, 5 years girls.
    c) Flying down here and install a new roof (comp shingles.
    d) Fly me where you are so we can party.



    Clay:

    That would be (d) for me . . .

    Aaron


  13. #13
    Richard Moore's Avatar
    Richard Moore Guest

    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Clay,

    Was there a shut-off located behind the lower grill? Such as...

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  14. #14
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
    Aaron Miller Guest

    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Clay White View Post
    Richard,

    Ah...yes....there was......therefore , all is well....sorry, I forgot about the SO valve being in the cabinet.
    Clay:

    Now, see all the stuff you started over nothing!

    Aaron


  15. #15
    Peter Drougas's Avatar
    Peter Drougas Guest

    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    "G2420.5.1 (409.5.1) Shutoff valve in fireplace. Equipment shutoff valves located in the firebox of a fireplace shall be installed in accordance with the appliance manufacturer’s instructions."

    Could we go back to this for a moment. I had been tought that the shutoff could not be in the firebox. Especially in the back or close to the flame at the sides. Aside from the very good idea of "getting out" before anything, that you should be able to reach the shutoff while a flame was operating. But the above comment seems to leave the installation up to the manufacture. I feel I should still be commenting that the shutoff should not be at that location. Or am I still hung up on safety and not service access?
    Any one's thoughts?


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Drougas View Post
    I feel I should still be commenting that the shutoff should not be at that location.
    That's up to you. I would not.

    Or am I still hung up on safety and not service access?
    Yep.

    You are still hung up on that the valve is for use as an emergency shut off valve, and it is not - it is only a service shut off valve for servicing the appliance.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #17
    Dale W. Feb's Avatar
    Dale W. Feb Guest

    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    It appears that everyone is focusing on this system as a fireplace. It is not. It is a gas appliance. What are the requirements for a gas appliance shut-off valve? Lets do a restart and try again. Will someone please find the code sections regarding gas appliances.

    Thank you,


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale W. Feb View Post
    It appears that everyone is focusing on this system as a fireplace. It is not. It is a gas appliance. What are the requirements for a gas appliance shut-off valve? Lets do a restart and try again. Will someone please find the code sections regarding gas appliances.

    Thank you,
    Dale,

    See my post above from 10-17.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Sort-of, but not always ... see the exception ... when the exception requirements are met.

    From the IRC. (underlining is mine)

    - G2420.5 (409.5) Equipment shutoff valve. Each appliance shall be provided with a shutoff valve separate from the appliance. The shutoff valve shall be located in the same room as the appliance, not further than 6 feet (1829 mm) from the appliance, and shall be installed upstream from the union, connector or quick disconnect device it serves. Such shutoff valves shall be provided with access.
    - - Exception:
    Shutoff valves for vented decorative appliances and decorative appliances for installation in vented fireplaces shall not be prohibited from being installed in an area remote from the appliance where such valves are provided with ready access. Such valves shall be permanently identified and shall serve no other equipment.

    - - G2420.5.1 (409.5.1) Shutoff valve in fireplace. Equipment shutoff valves located in the firebox of a fireplace shall be installed in accordance with the appliance manufacturer’s instructions.
    That is for gas "appliances":

    "Each appliance"

    "Exception:
    Shutoff valves for vented decorative appliances and decorative appliances for installation in vented fireplaces"


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #19
    Dale W. Feb's Avatar
    Dale W. Feb Guest

    Default Re: Gas Turn-key Valves for Fireplaces

    Thank you Jerry for bringing me up to speed. I got reading fatigue when I was attempting digest all this information. I do not know if the information below was yet discussed so please bear with me.

    IRC 2006 edition.

    G2422.1.2.1 (411.1.3.1) Maximum length. Connectors shall have an overall length not to exceed 3 feet except for range and domestic clothes dryer connectors, which shall not exceed 6 feet in overall length. Measurement shall be made along the centerline of the connector. Only one connector shall be used for each appliance.

    Exception: rigid metallic piping used to connect an appliance to the piping system shall be permitted to have a total length greater than 3 feet provided that the connecting pipe is sized as part of the piping system in accordance with Section G2413 and the location of the equipment shutoff valve complies with Section G2420.5 (our 6 foot requirement).

    So the rule is if you see a flexible connector at the gas-burning fireplace appliance, it must not exceed three feet in length. The shut off (service valve) should be between the rigid piping and the connector. If it is rigid piping, we can see it as far as six feet away. You will not see rigid piping connecting the gas supply to the gas valve on these units. It is impossible to access this area for this type application.


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