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  1. #1
    Gary Kidd's Avatar
    Gary Kidd Guest

    Angry passed city inspection

    My neighbors put a wood stove in their attached garage. You can see the smoke when smoking and the heat cloud hitting the cap an head down to the roof.

    The city codes official will only use 2012 IRC for inspection and it passed.
    I have the chimney inspection but not inside inspection.

    28 inch from roof on high side of stack at 10ft and 10'-5'' from high side or stack to the ridge.

    2012 IRC The chimney must be installed to manufactures specs(10/2/3) rule and the chimney must be the sane size as the appliance outlet.

    I`m being smoke and fumed out. I live south and that`s the way the wind blows.

    I have taken the codes officials measurements and ran them through a rise run calculator and the chimney should be 24 inches above the ridge.The codes official said the Chimney is 12 inch double wall (not on a wood stove). It is a wood stove.
    I cant get any info on the stove.

    I am to go before a city review board. I have pictures run and rise calculations and the 2012 IRC regulations. Do I have enough.

    DSC00311.JPGDSC00307.JPGDSC00305.JPGchimney0001.jpg

    run and rise calculator
    Rise in Run - Pitch Angle and Slope Calculator I used 120 run inches and 28 rise inches then i changed to angle and input 125 inches and got 29
    Chimney 53inches minus 29 inches = 24 inches above ridge.

    The codes inspector told me trig calculations are fictional numbers and his tape and level are accurate. I said but I used your numbers, he said discussion over take it to the Building and engineering adj Board.

    Inspection Referral

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    26,252

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    The most restrictive applies when there is a conflict between code requirements, i.e., if the manufacturer's requirements are less than the code requirements, the code requirements rule; however, if the code requirements are less than the manufacturer's requirements, the manufacturer's requirements rule.

    The minimum requirements of the code are a minimum of 3 feet high above the roof (as measured on the high of the chimney to the chimney outlet) AND (that is an "and" and not an "or") 2 feet higher than any part of any structure within 10 feet.

    Based on your drawing, that chimney meets the minimum requirements of the code. Do you now the manufacturer of the chimney so you can look up their requirements?

    Another avenue you might be able to take is through a local environmental and/or health department - they may, or may not, be able to help you.

    The codes are only minimum standards and requirements and do not take local variations into consideration on an individual scale.

    You also might find something in a property maintenance code which might require an owner to not contaminate neighboring properties in any way (sound/noise, odors, light, water, etc).

    If all else fails, find out who your city/town/county commissioner is and talk with them, they may be able to offer some help, if not individually for you (but that is the best outcome) they may be able to adopt or amend a property maintenance code to address contamination from neighboring properties to neighboring properties.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Near Philly, Pa.
    Posts
    1,643

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    I'm not sure why you're so worried about someone else's chimney installation. That is none of your business. If his smoke is causing you problems, you can take him to court but there's not much for you to refer to.

    I doubt that chimney termination is the proper listed termination. If that stove has a 6" collar then the chimney is oversized but is ok for an 8" collar stove.

    Smoke will enter the attic by that roof turbine, which his own stupidity but not your problem.


    Only if you can convince the local fire marshal that his installation is a fire and life safety hazard to you and your occupants would you probably have recourse against him.

    Whether or not this stove is properly installed would require a level II inspection which includes top to bottom and everything in between.

    If you have restrictive convenants on the land, they may provide some relief against him.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    41

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Kidd View Post
    My neighbors put a wood stove in their attached garage. You can see the smoke when smoking and the heat cloud hitting the cap an head down to the roof.

    The city codes official will only use 2012 IRC for inspection and it passed.
    I have the chimney inspection but not inside inspection.

    28 inch from roof on high side of stack at 10ft and 10'-5'' from high side or stack to the ridge.

    2012 IRC The chimney must be installed to manufactures specs(10/2/3) rule and the chimney must be the sane size as the appliance outlet.

    I`m being smoke and fumed out. I live south and that`s the way the wind blows.

    I have taken the codes officials measurements and ran them through a rise run calculator and the chimney should be 24 inches above the ridge.The codes official said the Chimney is 12 inch double wall (not on a wood stove). It is a wood stove.
    I cant get any info on the stove.

    I am to go before a city review board. I have pictures run and rise calculations and the 2012 IRC regulations. Do I have enough.

    DSC00311.JPGDSC00307.JPGDSC00305.JPGchimney0001.jpg

    run and rise calculator
    Rise in Run - Pitch Angle and Slope Calculator I used 120 run inches and 28 rise inches then i changed to angle and input 125 inches and got 29
    Chimney 53inches minus 29 inches = 24 inches above ridge.

    The codes inspector told me trig calculations are fictional numbers and his tape and level are accurate. I said but I used your numbers, he said discussion over take it to the Building and engineering adj Board.
    If the building inspector is following the letter of the code you may want to confirm the following;

    The 2009 IRC states in M1307.3.1 Protection from impact. "Appliances shall not be installed in a location subject to vehicle damage except where protected by approved barriers". Also in M1307.3 Elevation of Ignition source. "Appliances having an ignition source shall be elevated such that the source of ignition is not less than 18 inches above the floor in garages." Judging by the fact that the chimney and cap is inappropriate, it is unlikely that installation is in compliance. I suspect that if the operator was using better fuel or operating the appliance properly there would be far less smoke to create the problems you are experiencing.


    Ashley Eldridge
    CSIA Director of Education
    Chimney Safety Institute of America (CSIA) | Plainfield, IN


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    574

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Kidd View Post
    My neighbors put a wood stove in their attached garage. You can see the smoke when smoking and the heat cloud hitting the cap an head down to the roof.

    The city codes official will only use 2012 IRC for inspection and it passed.
    I have the chimney inspection but not inside inspection.

    28 inch from roof on high side of stack at 10ft and 10'-5'' from high side or stack to the ridge.

    2012 IRC The chimney must be installed to manufactures specs(10/2/3) rule and the chimney must be the sane size as the appliance outlet.

    I`m being smoke and fumed out. I live south and that`s the way the wind blows.

    I have taken the codes officials measurements and ran them through a rise run calculator and the chimney should be 24 inches above the ridge.The codes official said the Chimney is 12 inch double wall (not on a wood stove). It is a wood stove.
    I cant get any info on the stove.

    I am to go before a city review board. I have pictures run and rise calculations and the 2012 IRC regulations. Do I have enough.

    DSC00311.JPGDSC00307.JPGDSC00305.JPGchimney0001.jpg

    run and rise calculator
    Rise in Run - Pitch Angle and Slope Calculator I used 120 run inches and 28 rise inches then i changed to angle and input 125 inches and got 29
    Chimney 53inches minus 29 inches = 24 inches above ridge.

    The codes inspector told me trig calculations are fictional numbers and his tape and level are accurate. I said but I used your numbers, he said discussion over take it to the Building and engineering adj Board.
    GARY,

    You should go and talk to your neighbor about the problem and work it out together. You'll just create bad feelings by going to town officials.

    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,394

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Kidd View Post
    My neighbors put a wood stove in their attached garage. You can see the smoke when smoking and the heat cloud hitting the cap an head down to the roof.
    I don't understand your problem and your photos don't depict a problem. You can offer to help and pay for extending the flue if it bugs you this much, but my guess is that if AHJs in Missouri are anything like they are here, you are barking up an empty tree.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Northville NY
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Gary,

    This Should help:

    National Fire Code (NFPA 211) states

    12.2.3 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in
    any location where gasoline or any other flammable vapors or
    gases are present.
    12.2.4 Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in
    any garage.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Kidd View Post
    My neighbors put a wood stove in their attached garage. You can see the smoke when smoking and the heat cloud hitting the cap an head down to the roof.

    The city codes official will only use 2012 IRC for inspection and it passed.
    I have the chimney inspection but not inside inspection.

    28 inch from roof on high side of stack at 10ft and 10'-5'' from high side or stack to the ridge.

    2012 IRC The chimney must be installed to manufactures specs(10/2/3) rule and the chimney must be the sane size as the appliance outlet.

    I`m being smoke and fumed out. I live south and that`s the way the wind blows.

    I have taken the codes officials measurements and ran them through a rise run calculator and the chimney should be 24 inches above the ridge.The codes official said the Chimney is 12 inch double wall (not on a wood stove). It is a wood stove.
    I cant get any info on the stove.

    I am to go before a city review board. I have pictures run and rise calculations and the 2012 IRC regulations. Do I have enough.

    DSC00311.JPGDSC00307.JPGDSC00305.JPGchimney0001.jpg

    run and rise calculator
    Rise in Run - Pitch Angle and Slope Calculator I used 120 run inches and 28 rise inches then i changed to angle and input 125 inches and got 29
    Chimney 53inches minus 29 inches = 24 inches above ridge.

    The codes inspector told me trig calculations are fictional numbers and his tape and level are accurate. I said but I used your numbers, he said discussion over take it to the Building and engineering adj Board.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring Hill (Nashville), TN
    Posts
    5,847

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Even if the chimney is raised another foot, it is not going to change the path of the smoke. As noted by others, your complaining to the city is going to cause bad feelings with the neighbor. Kind of like neighbors with screaming kids, you learn to live with it, wait, for them to move or you move.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Wenatchee Wa
    Posts
    301

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Just for fun on this one, as Michael stated it may not be allowed by the Fire Code. Also there are some insurance companies that may have issue with it also (for the obvious reasons).

    Don Hester
    NCW Home Inspections, LLC
    Wa. St. Licensed H I #647, WSDA #80050, http://www.ncwhomeinspections.com

  10. #10
    Loren Sanders Sr.'s Avatar
    Loren Sanders Sr. Guest

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    I am not familiar with chimney codes in any state but the smoke problem you reference may be able to be addressed by installing an exhaust fan in the chimney to force the smoke like blasting it out of the chimney. This may cause the fuel source to burn more rapidly I would think but that extra push by the fan may do the trick. I don't envy your situation. Its a sad day when you must consider which way the wind blows, but when you think about it, if your neighbors had horses or pigs penned up, you could get an unwanted odor.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Memphis TN.
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    4,311

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Gary,

    If the "Garage" was converted to a living space it is no longer a garage.

    If it was Inspect by Building Inspectors and passed then it is approved as is.

    That said here ( not sure about your locale ordinances ) anything that would deprive you of the use and enjoyment of your property would be considered a public nuisance and a Judge would write a remedy to correct it.

    Please consider talking to your neighbor as this path is a Two edged Sword.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  12. #12
    Gary Kidd's Avatar
    Gary Kidd Guest

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    I contacted the codes department to see what could be done about the smoke and fumes after attempting to talk with my neighbors.
    The codes department said no permit was issued,would I like them to investigate.
    That`s how it started.
    Mr. Kidd:

    From what I can tell, the following applies to your concern:

    The installation of a solid fuel appliance did not follow City requirements for a permit. No record is on file.

    Assuming it is a solid fuel fireplace (wood stove) it appears that type L pipe (flue/chimney) has been installed but cannot verify if any concealed/interior installation meets connector, supporting, or clearance requirements.

    From the exterior (enclosed pictures) it is evident that the draft/weather hood is not installed or has been removed.

    Nearest I can calculate, clearance to roof may be compliant if the UL641 cap has been/is installed. The garage is 14 feet from centerline to east elevation. Type L pipe is sold in minimum of 18 inch sections, usually 24. The section of pipe visible, and partial section would be approx. 24 inches. The location of the pipe is approx. 10+ feet from the ridge (about 3 feet from the eave). The rear roof elevation is consistent North/South so the only roofline the termination elevation would be at the ridge.

    Cold weather inversion will force any wood (or other solid fuel) venting to the ground. Your complaints are identical to many I have investigated in other jurisdictions when wood central heat units have been installed in outdoor enclosures. The weather (cold, when these units are used) sometimes does not carry smoke (and smell) away from ground level, especially if no wind is present.

    That being said, burning of trash is illegal by City Ordinance 240.270. The Director in charge of any violations is the City Administrator, Keith Moody by Section 240.010.

    If you would like me to issue a no permit letter in effort to determine the extent of noncompliance, if any, please let me know.

    Respectfully


    Kip Thomas
    City of Harrisonville
    300 East Pearl Street
    Harrisonville, MO 64701
    816 380-8958
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The garage is still a garage.

    The codes official will only use 2012 IRC not the mechanical code or the fire code he said they dont apply to residential.

    I tried to talk to the neighbors they said We cant help it if you have a piece of s**t house.

    The drawing is mine and made from the dimensions provided by the codes official.
    You can see in the pictures the chimney is not 24 inches above the ridge as it should be
    By the dimensions below. I can take a picture from the front of the house for reference.
    I believe the codes department measurements are wrong.

    I spoke with my city council man and had talks about raising the stack I said that a proper sized chimney needs to be determined or a higher stack will be of no benefit, a waist of money.

    The codes official does not have or will not provide the appliance opening size.


    (from the codes office)
    The stack measured from the ridge side of the roof is 53 inches to the top of the stack. This complies with any requirement to be at minimum of 36 inches above the roof. The point 120 inches, or 10 feet from the ridge side of the stack is lower than the ridge (being 125 inches, or 10 feet 5 inches from the stack. This point (highest point at ten feet) is the point which height above roof is measured. The stack must be 24 inches above this point of the roof (NOT the ridge). The pitch of the roof is irrelevant. The level point from the roof ( 10 foot mark) to the stack was measured at 28 inches. The top of the stack must be 24 inches above this point. 24 plus 28 equals 52. The length of the stack is compliant to any provision Mr. Kidd is claiming--specifically, 3 feet above the roof, and 24 inches above a point (actually the highest point) within 10 feet from the stack. If Mr Kidd feels the measurements are not valid, he is welcome to go before the Board of Appeals


    I tried the nuisance ordinance and was told wood stove smoke is not a nuisance.
    Mr. Kidd:

    I will discuss your interpretation of appropriateness of the chimney pipe with staff, if we have a difference in interpretation the Board of Building and Engineering Appeals will hear the two interpretations and decide which is correct. This Board has the authority to interpret the building codes at issue.

    Your smell/fume complaint does not specify what the source of the unwanted smell is. Burning wood is not prohibited for instance. Are you contending that your neighbor is burning improper solid fuel (such as plastics or garbage) in his solid fuel appliance?



    The chimney is Duravent ( the city agrees) Duravent Chimney installation states use the 10/3/2 and the Chimney must be the same size as the appliance opening to ensure proper draft.

    (This link was sent from the City )While the information you provided may have come from the manufacturer, it is only valid for pipe sizes up to 8 inches in diameter. If you clearly look at the inspection report provided to you, you will see that the chimney diameter is 12 inches.
    http://www.duravent.com/docs/product...011cat_web.pdf Page 44




    My response typical installation for 5''-24''
    page 23 and 24 are the instructions for proper manufactures installation.

    http://www.duravent.com/docs/product...011cat_web.pdf


    The city said they had pictures they would sent, now they wont send.
    This is the only information they will let me have.

    wood stove permit0001.jpgchimney inspection0001.jpg


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Memphis TN.
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    4,311

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    The City has opened a No Permit Issued Investigation and you'll have to let it run it's course.

    Best,
    Billy

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  14. #14
    Gary Kidd's Avatar
    Gary Kidd Guest

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    The city has approved the wood stove installation.

    I am sure the chimney is the wrong size.

    The codes chimney termination numbers don't work.

    I am going before the board of engineer and building adjustments to state my case this is the first step.

    I just want the install correct, If Im still getting smoked and fumed I can take a different approach to the issues.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    Memphis TN.
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    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Kidd View Post
    The city has approved the wood stove installation.

    I am sure the chimney is the wrong size.

    The codes chimney termination numbers don't work.

    I am going before the board of engineer and building adjustments to state my case this is the first step.

    I just want the install correct, If Im still getting smoked and fumed I can take a different approach to the issues.
    OK got it.
    *keep us posted on your progress.

    Best,
    Billy

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  16. #16
    Gary Kidd's Avatar
    Gary Kidd Guest

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    I was looking for advice on how to state my case with the information I have, or am I wasting my time.

    I have lived in my home since 1990 and hate to be ran out.

    The neighbors are yelling, open exhaust revving, loud radio blasting, dog barking,
    drunk adults in the swimming pool, alcohol bottles over my fence, think they can do anything Arrogant Neighbors.

    You cant talk to them.

    I`m looking at a place in the country. Until then or after I move I must be able to rent or sell this house.

    Forgot to mention that the the smell is getting in my cars they are outside. When you turn on the heater you get blasted with the smell. You can be a mile away when you turn on the heat and still get blasted, its leaching in.

    I have lost my sense of smell unless we have three days of warm weather and no wood burning.

    Thank's for any and all the assistance Gary


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
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    5,005

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    I fail to understand how a wind turbine is going to draw smoke in to the attic from the chimney since the turbine pulls air out of the attic. Even on a still day a turbine vent lets air out not in since attics are above the neutral plane, not to mention the stack affect.

    Is it really a concern and can it be said definitively that smoke will enter the attic via the turbine?


  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Am I the only one confused?

    There was no permit issued yet the city approved the installation?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #19
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    Spring Hill (Nashville), TN
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    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Am I the only one confused?

    There was no permit issued yet the city approved the installation?
    Nope, I was confused with the first post!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    Southern Vancouver Island
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    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Kidd View Post
    I was looking for advice on how to state my case with the information I have, or am I wasting my time.

    I have lived in my home since 1990 and hate to be ran out.

    The neighbors are yelling, open exhaust revving, loud radio blasting, dog barking,
    drunk adults in the swimming pool, alcohol bottles over my fence, think they can do anything Arrogant Neighbors.

    You cant talk to them.

    I`m looking at a place in the country. Until then or after I move I must be able to rent or sell this house.

    Forgot to mention that the the smell is getting in my cars they are outside. When you turn on the heater you get blasted with the smell. You can be a mile away when you turn on the heat and still get blasted, its leaching in.

    I have lost my sense of smell unless we have three days of warm weather and no wood burning.

    Thank's for any and all the assistance Gary
    Hello Gary. There are channels you can use for nuisance neighbors but the building permit angle is futile, we think, because the town approved the installation and it is not in violation from appearances at least.

    If they disturb your peace, you can call the cops, that's about it. If they pollute your air, you can complain, but it won't go far unless you can get a petition signed by everyone on the block. Try that.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    smyrna ga
    Posts
    21

    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Bad and continuous smoke means waste and pollution. You may have some State or local rules
    in effect for the type of wood stove that can be used today. The EPA may take a look at your problem also. Search for wood stoves and EPA info in your state. Call a local wood stove sales outfit for help on what they can sell locally and EPA rules.



    EPA-certified wood stoves are cleaner burning and more efficient than a typical uncertified wood stove. In some states and jurisdictions, it is illegal to offer for sale, purchase, operate or sell a house containing a wood stove not certified by the EPA Wood Heater Program. lol


  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Maryland
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    Default Re: passed city inspection

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Am I the only one confused?

    There was no permit issued yet the city approved the installation?
    I had to think a moment myself. But then figured that he first called Code Enforcement and whom ever answered didn't find it in the system, then looked again and did find the permit. Maybe had to put down the donut, misspelled or wrong number of property.

    Gary,
    Personally think you are just wasting your time. Owner filed a permit and it was inspected by code department, passed. Best you might get is a cap on pipe. Best option for you from my experience of living in an apartment, row home, house in the woods. Move to the woods where you can't see or hear your neighbors. Though I can still smell their smoke at times.

    Won't help much; The Platters - Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - YouTube


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