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  1. #1
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    Default Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Here is a link with information about the Charlotte Panther's head coach home fire.
    Modular fireplace risk cited in Panthers coach Ron Rivera’s home blaze | CharlotteObserver.com

    I am wondering, is the area where remote controls, gas shutoff valves and fans, the steel plate they are saying was missing? I've never seen one without an open space beneath the floor of the firebox.

    Inspection Referral
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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    "The manual for Rivera’s fireplace, for example, has 44 pages. “It just becomes very difficult for (inspectors),” Mander said. “Whether it’s a fireplace, a hot-water heater – it gets exhausting keeping up with all of it.”

    In 2010, fire officials in Greensboro warned residents about the risks of such fireplaces after fires at two homes, according to the (Greensboro) News & Record."

    So we must forgive the building inspector for not browsing the manual or acknowledging fire official bulletins? Which led to a $500,000 loss and could have been lives lost. Tsk, tsk.





    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    "The manual for Rivera’s fireplace, for example, has 44 pages. “It just becomes very difficult for (inspectors),” Mander said. “Whether it’s a fireplace, a hot-water heater – it gets exhausting keeping up with all of it.”

    In 2010, fire officials in Greensboro warned residents about the risks of such fireplaces after fires at two homes, according to the (Greensboro) News & Record."

    So we must forgive the building inspector for not browsing the manual or acknowledging fire official bulletins? Which led to a $500,000 loss and could have been lives lost. Tsk, tsk.



    I just took a quick look at the installation instructions......hmmmmm

    16. If the fireplace is installed directly on carpeting, vinyl
    tile or any combustible material other than wood flooring
    or wood sub-flooring, the appliance shall be installed on a
    metal sheet, cementitous board or wood panel extending the
    full width and depth of the unit.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    That defect should be pretty apparent when the house is under construction, but not so easy afterwards. I also do not see from the picture shown how a steel plate in direct contact with thin masonry and wood does anything other than preventing hot embers from passing through cracks (i.e. it does not stop heating the by by conduction). I have never come across fireplaces of this type.


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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    That defect should be pretty apparent when the house is under construction, but not so easy afterwards. I also do not see from the picture shown how a steel plate in direct contact with thin masonry and wood does anything other than preventing hot embers from passing through cracks (i.e. it does not stop heating the by by conduction). I have never come across fireplaces of this type.
    Mark, from what I saw in the installation instructions, the steel plate was not required. I am wondering about the gas log installation rather than the fireplace being the cause of the fire.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Mark, from what I saw in the installation instructions, the steel plate was not required. I am wondering about the gas log installation rather than the fireplace being the cause of the fire.
    I did not look close enough to see that this is not wood burning and only for gas. The manual does say the baseplate is required for combustible floors. Maybe the baseplate creates an airspace below it, which would make sense. It does refer to a 3" baseplate.


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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    I did not look close enough to see that this is not wood burning and only for gas. The manual does say the baseplate is required for combustible floors. Maybe the baseplate creates an airspace below it, which would make sense. It does refer to a 3" baseplate.
    The baseplate is the floor of the fireplace as far as I can tell from the diagrams. The missing steel plate is what the Charlotte Fire Dept. is saying may have caused the fire.

    this from the installation instructions:
    "If the fireplace is installed directly on carpeting, vinyl
    tile or any combustible material other than wood flooring
    or wood sub-flooring
    , the appliance shall be installed on a
    metal sheet, cementitous board or wood panel extending the
    full width and depth of the unit."

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Here is a link with information about the Charlotte Panther's head coach home fire.
    Modular fireplace risk cited in Panthers coach Ron Rivera’s home blaze | CharlotteObserver.com

    I am wondering, is the area where remote controls, gas shutoff valves and fans, the steel plate they are saying was missing? I've never seen one without an open space beneath the floor of the firebox.
    Vern, I have never seen one of these units, may be a regional thing but it does not look anything like the traditional decorative units I see. According to the manual I found, there is no cavity under the fire box.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Vern, I have never seen one of these units, may be a regional thing but it does not look anything like the traditional decorative units I see. According to the manual I found, there is no cavity under the fire box.
    I've never seen one either, wait......I think I hear the lawyers cranking up the Beamers and heading to the fire site!

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Vern, I have never seen one of these units, may be a regional thing but it does not look anything like the traditional decorative units I see. According to the manual I found, there is no cavity under the fire box.
    I think the manual is poorly written. See page 13. It shows that a flush hearth is only possible with a non-combustible floor. The baseplate is mentioned several places in the manual.


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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    I think the manual is poorly written. See page 13. It shows that a flush hearth is only possible with a non-combustible floor. The baseplate is mentioned several places in the manual.
    The component list shows the baseplate as 3" high. Pic 3 in the article shows something (maybe 3") beneath the firebrick on the floor of the firebox.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Mark, from what I saw in the installation instructions, the steel plate was not required. I am wondering about the gas log installation rather than the fireplace being the cause of the fire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    The baseplate is the floor of the fireplace as far as I can tell from the diagrams. The missing steel plate is what the Charlotte Fire Dept. is saying may have caused the fire.

    this from the installation instructions:
    "If the fireplace is installed directly on carpeting, vinyl
    tile or any combustible material other than wood flooring
    or wood sub-flooring
    , the appliance shall be installed on a
    metal sheet, cementitous board or wood panel extending the
    full width and depth of the unit."
    Supposedly fire dept said "Rivera’s first-floor gas fireplace was built directly onto the wooden subfloor,..."


    What am I missing here. Was it installed according to manf. instructions. Was it a defect in Manf. Inst. Inspector would have followed Manf. Inst. except for possible notice to change installation method and spects..



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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    I've never seen one either, wait......I think I hear the lawyers cranking up the Beamers and heading to the fire site!
    You can see Beacon Homes positioning themselves by trying to pass the blame to the AHJ. While they may get to share some blame, their insurance company is probably going to pay for most of the repair.

    Gas fireplaces can be tough to inspect, especially if they are sealed appliances. I run my sniffer around them and find a leaker about 5% of the time.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    The primary reason I started this thread was to try and learn what we should look for with this brand of fireplace. If I had inspected the home I would not have written it up, as far as I can tel from the pic's, the baseplate is installed?

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    The primary reason I started this thread was to try and learn what we should look for with this brand of fireplace. If I had inspected the home I would not have written it up, as far as I can tel from the pic's, the baseplate is installed?
    I think you want to look for a
    3" metal spacer between the fireplace and the floor.

    The history of fires should be enough to convince people these units are unsafe sitting flat on the wood floor, regardless of what the manual says.
    But I can see now how the wording led to these installations being passed by officials. The manual does say it is correct to set them flat on the wood floor.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    I think you want to look for a
    3" metal spacer between the fireplace and the floor.

    The history of fires should be enough to convince people these units are unsafe sitting flat on the wood floor, regardless of what the manual says.
    But I can see now how the wording led to these installations being passed by officials. The manual does say it is correct to set them flat on the wood floor.
    I actually suspect page 25, figure 37, is the more likely cause of the fire. The bottom of the firebox looks like it is 3-4" above the level of the floor.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    You can see Beacon Homes positioning themselves by trying to pass the blame to the AHJ. While they may get to share some blame, their insurance company is probably going to pay for most of the repair.

    Gas fireplaces can be tough to inspect, especially if they are sealed appliances. I run my sniffer around them and find a leaker about 5% of the time.
    I loved that line about not getting a C/O or similar wording if it was not correct. I have heard it a thousand times.


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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    The baseplate is the floor of the fireplace as far as I can tell from the diagrams. The missing steel plate is what the Charlotte Fire Dept. is saying may have caused the fire.

    this from the installation instructions:
    "If the fireplace is installed directly on carpeting, vinyl
    tile or any combustible material other than wood flooring
    or wood sub-flooring
    , the appliance shall be installed on a
    metal sheet, cementitous board or wood panel extending the
    full width and depth of the unit."

    From the ICC ESR-2316 for those fireplaces - see attached.

    The ESR does not contain the "other than wood flooring or wood sub-flooring" exemption ... which means that if an ICC code is applicable, the ESR-2316 would be applicable.

    ESR-2316 states: (underlining is mine) "The fireplaces must be installed in accordance with this report, the manufacturer's installation instructions and the applicable code."

    That means the base plate is a "requirement", not an "option".

    (You may want to re-visit your comment on that site and update it.)

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the ICC ESR-2316 for those fireplaces - see attached.

    The ESR does not contain the "other than wood flooring or wood sub-flooring" exemption ... which means that if an ICC code is applicable, the ESR-2316 would be applicable.

    ESR-2316 states: (underlining is mine) "The fireplaces must be installed in accordance with this report, the manufacturer's installation instructions and the applicable code."

    That means the base plate is a "requirement", not an "option".

    (You may want to re-visit your comment on that site and update it.)
    My contention is that the earthcore baseplate is indeed installed. The local news reported that the "metal" baseplate was missing, which had me looking for something "metal" in the installation instructions. I now know that what the fire department says is missing is the 3" earthcore baseplate. Being the first item to install in the installation process makes it hard enough to believe that it is missing. Secondly, without the baseplate, what would you have to mortar the firebrick to? Thirdly, what is the item beneath the firebrick in the pictures? Again, I do not want to beat a dead horse, but really want to understand what to look for. Reports of fires in my area send chills up my spine every time.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Again, I do not want to beat a dead horse, but really want to understand what to look for.
    Beating dead horses is what we do here, but this is a another one of those threads that has attracted far more posts than I would've expected. None of us saw this house or fireplace. For us, the question is what could we have seen as HIs at this house? I suspect nothing unusual. When will Flir get those X-ray glasses perfected?

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    Beating dead horses is what we do here, but this is a another one of those threads that has attracted far more posts than I would've expected. None of us saw this house or fireplace. For us, the question is what could we have seen as HIs at this house? I suspect nothing unusual. When will Flir get those X-ray glasses perfected?
    From the Isokern IBV-46 installation instructions (following Lon's "None of us saw this house or fireplace. For us, the question is what could we have seen as HIs at this house? I suspect nothing unusual." lead):
    - This is the very first information in the installation instructions after the Table of Contents, under the heading "General Information": (bold and underlining are mine)
    - - IBV Models IBV-36 and IBV-46 are tested and listed by PFSCorp., USA Report No. 09-79 to ANSI Z21.50b-2009b-2009. The IBV models are top-vented, gas only fireplaces that are listed for use only with the ISOFLAMES Gas Log appliance listed in this installation manual. These gas appliances come with a gas control valve that includes an automatic shut-off switch. The gas valve is available in a millivolt remote control pilot assembly.

    - and this:
    - - WARNING: - - - This fireplace has not been tested for use with glass doors. To reduce the risk of fire or injury, do not install glass doors. Some jursdictions require the use of glass doors. If glass doors are used, operate fireplace with doors in the fully open position.

    - and this: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - - Required Clearance to Combustibles - - - Important: “Combustibles” are defined as “normal construction materials” and considered to be: wood framing materials, particle board, mill board, plywood paneling, plywood subflooring and wood flooring.
    - - - The IBV is listed for installation with “clearance to combustibles” (shown below) as follows:
    - - - - A: Zero inch (0”) clearance to the combustible floor;
    - - - - B: Zero inch (0”) clearance at the Isokern firebox and smoke dome sides and front ;
    - - - - C: One and one half inches (1-1/2”) clearance at the Isokern firebox and smoke dome back wall ;
    - - - - D: One inch (1”) minimum air space to combustibles at all B-Vent double wall chimney components’ outer layer.
    - - - - - (Contact pipe manufacturer for specific clearance information)
    - - - CAUTION: Maintain three inches (3”) clearance to insulation and vapor barriers from all firebox, smoke dome and B-Vent flue components’ outer layer.
    - - - Notes:
    - - - - 1. The IBV is designed, tested and approved for installation directly on a combustible floor system per the installation specifications given in this manual.
    - - - - 2. All IBV installations will result in the minimum finished fire brick floor of the firebox being at least four and one half inches (4-1/2”) above the combustible floor system. For flush hearth installations, consult your local representative.
    - - - - 3. The combustible floor in front of the fireplace must be covered with a noncombustible hearth extension material set tight against the fireplace front and extending at least twenty inches (20”) out from the finished front of the fireplace and at least twelve inches (12”) beyond the finished sides of the fireplace opening (See page 28).
    - - - WARNING: Combustible objects placed in front of the fireplace must be kept to a minimum of forty eight inches (48”) clearance to the fireplace opening.

    - from here:
    - - http://www.isokern.net/Downloads/Ins...2-07%20Web.pdf

    Any other gas log appliance and all bets are off.

    Glass doors installed and all bets are off - I doubt anyone who installs glass doors will then leave those glass doors fully open.

    Do HI's check the manufacturer and model of the gas log appliance and the installation instructions to make sure the two match? And for glass doors which are then required to be fully open? As Lon indicated - I doubt it.

    For Vern - the "baseplate" is Part Number 21 for the IBV-46 (see page 7) is not required for assembly of the fireplace (see Figure 5 on Page 13), thus is would be possible for the baseplate to not be installed on a wood subfloor and the fireplace still assembled.

    From the text adjacent to Figure 4 on Page 13: "Step 1:The IBV base plate can be set directly on a combustible floor system. Set the base plate level in a bed of Earthcore Mortar so that the base plate is in full contact with the underlying floor system (Figure 4). Do not set the IBV base plate in span."

    Note that the baseplate can be set on a combustible floor system and no metal plate is metioned, however, setting the baseplate on a full bed of Earthcore Mortar is a requirement.

    I may have missed it in my scan of the installation instructions, but I did not find anything in there about a metal sheet being required below the fireplace.

    I agree that we do beat dead horses, not in an effort to get the dead horse up, but in an effort to try to come to a consensus as to what caused the horse to die ... in this case ... what caused the fire to not kept in the fireplace (as Bob H. might say).

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the Isokern IBV-46 installation instructions (following Lon's "None of us saw this house or fireplace. For us, the question is what could we have seen as HIs at this house? I suspect nothing unusual." lead):
    - This is the very first information in the installation instructions after the Table of Contents, under the heading "General Information": (bold and underlining are mine)
    - - IBV Models IBV-36 and IBV-46 are tested and listed by PFSCorp., USA Report No. 09-79 to ANSI Z21.50b-2009b-2009. The IBV models are top-vented, gas only fireplaces that are listed for use only with the ISOFLAMES Gas Log appliance listed in this installation manual. These gas appliances come with a gas control valve that includes an automatic shut-off switch. The gas valve is available in a millivolt remote control pilot assembly.

    - and this:
    - - WARNING: - - - This fireplace has not been tested for use with glass doors. To reduce the risk of fire or injury, do not install glass doors. Some jursdictions require the use of glass doors. If glass doors are used, operate fireplace with doors in the fully open position.

    - and this: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - - Required Clearance to Combustibles - - - Important: “Combustibles” are defined as “normal construction materials” and considered to be: wood framing materials, particle board, mill board, plywood paneling, plywood subflooring and wood flooring.
    - - - The IBV is listed for installation with “clearance to combustibles” (shown below) as follows:
    - - - - A: Zero inch (0”) clearance to the combustible floor;
    - - - - B: Zero inch (0”) clearance at the Isokern firebox and smoke dome sides and front ;
    - - - - C: One and one half inches (1-1/2”) clearance at the Isokern firebox and smoke dome back wall ;
    - - - - D: One inch (1”) minimum air space to combustibles at all B-Vent double wall chimney components’ outer layer.
    - - - - - (Contact pipe manufacturer for specific clearance information)
    - - - CAUTION: Maintain three inches (3”) clearance to insulation and vapor barriers from all firebox, smoke dome and B-Vent flue components’ outer layer.
    - - - Notes:
    - - - - 1. The IBV is designed, tested and approved for installation directly on a combustible floor system per the installation specifications given in this manual.
    - - - - 2. All IBV installations will result in the minimum finished fire brick floor of the firebox being at least four and one half inches (4-1/2”) above the combustible floor system. For flush hearth installations, consult your local representative.
    - - - - 3. The combustible floor in front of the fireplace must be covered with a noncombustible hearth extension material set tight against the fireplace front and extending at least twenty inches (20”) out from the finished front of the fireplace and at least twelve inches (12”) beyond the finished sides of the fireplace opening (See page 28).
    - - - WARNING: Combustible objects placed in front of the fireplace must be kept to a minimum of forty eight inches (48”) clearance to the fireplace opening.

    - from here:
    - - http://www.isokern.net/Downloads/Ins...2-07%20Web.pdf

    Any other gas log appliance and all bets are off.

    Glass doors installed and all bets are off - I doubt anyone who installs glass doors will then leave those glass doors fully open.

    Do HI's check the manufacturer and model of the gas log appliance and the installation instructions to make sure the two match? And for glass doors which are then required to be fully open? As Lon indicated - I doubt it.

    For Vern - the "baseplate" is Part Number 21 for the IBV-46 (see page 7) is not required for assembly of the fireplace (see Figure 5 on Page 13), thus is would be possible for the baseplate to not be installed on a wood subfloor and the fireplace still assembled.

    From the text adjacent to Figure 4 on Page 13: "Step 1:The IBV base plate can be set directly on a combustible floor system. Set the base plate level in a bed of Earthcore Mortar so that the base plate is in full contact with the underlying floor system (Figure 4). Do not set the IBV base plate in span."

    Note that the baseplate can be set on a combustible floor system and no metal plate is metioned, however, setting the baseplate on a full bed of Earthcore Mortar is a requirement.

    I may have missed it in my scan of the installation instructions, but I did not find anything in there about a metal sheet being required below the fireplace.

    I agree that we do beat dead horses, not in an effort to get the dead horse up, but in an effort to try to come to a consensus as to what caused the horse to die ... in this case ... what caused the fire to not kept in the fireplace (as Bob H. might say).
    Jerry, how can the baseplate not be required when the "Assembled Firebox & Smoke Dome Dimensions" on page 6, shows the baseplate installed? And then, as you pointed out, step #1 says, "Set the base plate level in a bed of Earthcore Mortar". Then the question remains, what is the item that appears to be approx 3" deep, beneath the firebrick in the picture?

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Jerry, how can the baseplate not be required when the "Assembled Firebox & Smoke Dome Dimensions" on page 6, shows the baseplate installed? And then, as you pointed out, step #1 says, "Set the base plate level in a bed of Earthcore Mortar".
    The baseplate is not required because, on page 13, Figure 5, when the fireplace is assembled on a concrete slab, the concrete slab takes the place of the baseplate.

    When installed on other-than-concrete, which basically leaves wood as the most common installation option, then the baseplate is required - but the baseplate is not "required" to complete the assembly, the baseplate is "required" to protect from heat.

    Then the question remains, what is the item that appears to be approx 3" deep, beneath the firebrick in the picture?
    In what picture? In Figure 5? There is nothing there in Figure 5. The firebrick is laid in mortar on the concrete.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The baseplate is not required because, on page 13, Figure 5, when the fireplace is assembled on a concrete slab, the concrete slab takes the place of the baseplate.

    When installed on other-than-concrete, which basically leaves wood as the most common installation option, then the baseplate is required - but the baseplate is not "required" to complete the assembly, the baseplate is "required" to protect from heat.



    In what picture? In Figure 5? There is nothing there in Figure 5. The firebrick is laid in mortar on the concrete.
    The pictures in the Charlotte Observer article:

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    The pictures in the Charlotte Observer article:
    That looks like a baseplate (based on the installation instructions drawings).

    But, is that a hearth extension in front of it?

    If it is on a wood floor system, it requires a hearth extension per the installation instructions.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That looks like a baseplate (based on the installation instructions drawings).

    But, is that a hearth extension in front of it?

    If it is on a wood floor system, it requires a hearth extension per the installation instructions.
    Yes, other pic's show the hearth extension better.

    My guess is that the fire department investigator wanted to see the gap that is normally seen under other brands of pre-fab fireplaces. The diagram drawn by the Observer shows a second baseplate they say is missing under the fireplace. You just can't keep up with every model.

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    Question Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    I haven't talked to Dale Feb about this case yet as he's investigating a fire loss in New England I believe. I know he has investigated multiple fire losses from similar "Lego" fireplaces. We used to walk the floor of the HPBA convention together and spent a lot of time on these modular fireplaces. It was shocking to see the casting defects in units they brought to THE big national trade show. The ANSI testing allows for 90F under the hearth and 117F under the hearth extension (above ambient). The steel or CBB sheet under the hearth is common with almost any factory built fireplace as they require the unit sit on a solid continuous base. However, allowing one to sit on carpet is a new one on me--not for the heat conduction but rocking, which can lead to opening cracks. In the case with a high mass modular fireplace sitting on a framed floor of new construction, the movement of drying lumber is not taken into acct. in the test std.. Gaps can open up such as that firebox mortar. If you have a forced air system, the potential of negative pressure to draw heat into areas not designed to see those temps. is a common cause of unfriendly fires.

    Meanwhile, for now, we can all speculate. I'm still very skeptical of all "Leggo" fireplaces. BTW, we don't know if there was a gas leak or not that could have played a role as well as negative pressure, adverse air currents, etc. We'll see.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    The pictures in the Charlotte Observer article:
    "What is this if it is not the baseplate?"
    Looks like the hearth to to me, not a baseplate. The instructions mention a baseplate may be required if installed on a combustible surface, so it is an additional part, read additional $$$.

    Also, somewhere in the discussion it was implied that firebricks were ground up into a gravel-like filler for inside the baseplate, so you wouldn't see "bricks" with cracks. However, in looking at your picture the baseplate is obviously missing as the fireplace would be an additional 3" higher if it was there (hearth + baseplate).


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    "What is this if it is not the baseplate?"
    Looks like the hearth to to me, not a baseplate. The instructions mention a baseplate may be required if installed on a combustible surface, so it is an additional part, read additional $$$.

    Also, somewhere in the discussion it was implied that firebricks were ground up into a gravel-like filler for inside the baseplate, so you wouldn't see "bricks" with cracks. However, in looking at your picture the baseplate is obviously missing as the fireplace would be an additional 3" higher if it was there (hearth + baseplate).
    Installation instructions show the baseplate as the hearth and as being shipped with the other pieces - unless I read the parts list wrong and the installation instructions wrong ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    I don't think the baseplate would be always included since it is not required for non-combustible floors.

    The only thing clear about this is that you never get the complete or accurate information from news accounts.

    Another thing clear to me is that manufacturer's instructions are often lacking. Case in point. Gas log manufacturers instructions often seen to show the clamp required to be installed on the flue damper attached to an edge of the damper. This allows many dampers to be almost fully closed, which does not meet requirements. The instructions do list the minimum required opening, but this required installers to think and calculate areas.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the Isokern IBV-46 installation instructions (following Lon's "None of us saw this house or fireplace. For us, the question is what could we have seen as HIs at this house? I suspect nothing unusual." lead):
    .
    - from here:
    - - http://www.isokern.net/Downloads/Ins...2-07%20Web.pdf
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Installation instructions show the baseplate as the hearth and as being shipped with the other pieces - unless I read the parts list wrong and the installation instructions wrong ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    I don't think the baseplate would be always included since it is not required for non-combustible floors.
    See pages 6 and 7 of the installation instructions - that is the "base plate", it is provided with each fireplace, and, if being installed on a noncombustible floor (such as a concrete slab), the base plate - while not required - may be installed or not installed (personal choice on concrete slabs), and if not installed, then the base plate goes into the trash (or for some other use, maybe in the garage to set the garbage cans on, or park the oil dripping lawn mower on, or ... ).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    The pictures in the Charlotte Observer article:
    Look at the picture from the newspaper. The base of the fireplace is a thick piece precast masonry. In the newspaper picture is it sitting up on top of a base in addition to the precast masonry.

    If you knew the thickness of the masonry base you could measure the height of the masonry base in relation to the floor.


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hronek View Post
    Look at the picture from the newspaper. The base of the fireplace is a thick piece precast masonry. In the newspaper picture is it sitting up on top of a base in addition to the precast masonry.

    If you knew the thickness of the masonry base you could measure the height of the masonry base in relation to the floor.
    The drawing in the news paper is by the journalist, and is a rendition of what the fire department thinks it should be. In reality (according to the installation instructions) the thick piece you see in the picture is the only thing required to be there.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    I agree with Vern - it looks like the base plate is there, and the illustration in the paper is wrong. But what is the fireplace installed on? Looks like carpet in the photo? Maybe the part that's missing is the steel plate that's suppose to be under the base plate. Also, there's no "hearth" extension in front of the fireplace, which must be installed over any combustible medium.

    On the other hand, is the bottom piece in the photo of the burnt FP really 3" thick? Hard to say, but I guess it must be.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

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    Default Re: Pre-fab fireplace fire

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    I agree with Vern - it looks like the base plate is there, and the illustration in the paper is wrong. But what is the fireplace installed on? Looks like carpet in the photo? Maybe the part that's missing is the steel plate that's suppose to be under the base plate. Also, there's no "hearth" extension in front of the fireplace, which must be installed over any combustible medium.

    On the other hand, is the bottom piece in the photo of the burnt FP really 3" thick? Hard to say, but I guess it must be.
    I am hoping Bob Harper has talked to Dale Feb and will enlighten us soon.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

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