Thread: Never seen before?

The fire box is a cast or molded metal/steel (what is this called)
Damper was very thin metal distorted from excessive heat and seperated from the interior brick
Flue/chimney was brick only with soot/creosote build up flaking away and severe moisture intrusion/efflorescence
Noted the smoked facade also
I called this for CSIA evaluation for all required repairs or retrofits

Barry, why a level III?



I think a wrecking ball may be all that is needed.

It is likely manyfacrtured by Heatilator Co. they usually had a fan system and were popular in the 70's. The company is still in business. I think they were quite prone to being badly installed.

JLMathis

That step flashing looks like loose playing cards.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

Barry, why a level III?



I think a wrecking ball may be all that is needed.

A Level III is a destructive inspection. Removing parts of the wall, etc., so you can see the guts of the critter.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

Barry, why a level III?



I think a wrecking ball may be all that is needed.

One or the other, but I'm leaning toward the ... wrecking ball.

Here is the fancier word I used: deconstruction. That needs to be "deconstructed" so it can then be "re-constructed" properly.

Level IIIs are generally recommended after a chimney fire and as Scott said, they are really destructive on the interior of the home. In this case, a III may be a worthwhile consideration.

Looks like a Heatform steel fireplace. This is a steel shell set by the mason then the rest of the fireplace and chimney are constructed around it. Some models, such as the Heatilator Mark C have heat exchanger tubes tied to air ducts. You'll usually see two low and two high and some with a row of brick louvers across the breast. I find newspaper, toys, candy, junk in these air passageways. One had plastic jugs holding homemade blowers.

The breast almost always warps leaving a profile gap where heat can migrate up behind the facade up to combustibles and ignite within the wall. The dampers all use a piano hinge that will rust out because nobody puts rain caps on their chimneys. There is no field repair for these units. They must be cut out and the fireplace rebuilt with traditional masonry.

Note how thick the facade is? About 12" thick. This is an aerodynamic nightmare for starters. Also, those bricks laid across the lintel do not seal worth a hoot. How much you wanna bet there is a combustible wall behind that brick?

Why would you recommend the CSIA? First of all the CSIA is a certification agency. Did you mean a CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep? They are not trained in chimney inspection. They just passed a written test--no training required. You would be better off recommending a FIRE Service Certified Fireplace Inspector IMHO.

Bob

Thanks to all.
No labeling or markings were present
No fan or heat exchanger tubes present

Bob,
I'll heed your advice in the future and have relayed this info to the client.

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

Looks like a Heatform steel fireplace. This is a steel shell set by the mason then the rest of the fireplace and chimney are constructed around it. Some models, such as the Heatilator Mark C have heat exchanger tubes tied to air ducts. You'll usually see two low and two high and some with a row of brick louvers across the breast. I find newspaper, toys, candy, junk in these air passageways. One had plastic jugs holding homemade blowers.

The breast almost always warps leaving a profile gap where heat can migrate up behind the facade up to combustibles and ignite within the wall. The dampers all use a piano hinge that will rust out because nobody puts rain caps on their chimneys. There is no field repair for these units. They must be cut out and the fireplace rebuilt with traditional masonry.

Note how thick the facade is? About 12" thick. This is an aerodynamic nightmare for starters. Also, those bricks laid across the lintel do not seal worth a hoot. How much you wanna bet there is a combustible wall behind that brick?

Why would you recommend the CSIA? First of all the CSIA is a certification agency. Did you mean a CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep? They are not trained in chimney inspection. They just passed a written test--no training required. You would be better off recommending a FIRE Service Certified Fireplace Inspector IMHO.

Bob

Bob,

I disagree with your humble opinion. As a 29 year veteran of the hearth industry and a CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep I AM qualified to inspect a chimney in all three levels of NFPA requirements and I AM qualified to recommend remedies for issues that might exist.

Making a blanket assumption and statement that CSIA Certified Chimney Sweeps are not qualified is incorrect and misleading.

Sincerely,
Bart Ogden, President
Home Safe Hearth & Chimney, Inc.
Wichita, KS

Bart, I do not want to get into a flame war on this site with you. I simply clarified a few things for the OP. First, he recommended "I called this for CSIA evaluation for all required repairs or retrofits". Since the CSIA is a certification agency that does not have its own in-house inspectors, this wording seemed improper for his report. That's why I asked if he meant a CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep. Then, I merely pointed out that a CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep is not trained. To be Certified, you only have to pass a written test, that's all. If you want a trained inspector, there are other programs, of which, I recommend the FIRE Service and, to support an advertiser of this FREE site, I support that advertiser so we can continue to have FREE discussion and dissemination of information here. I do NOT see the CSIA advertising here or supporting this site.

Bart, don't put statements into my mouth. I never stated you or anyone else was not qualified to inspect a chimney or recommend repairs. What I pointed out was there is a higher standard that incliudes the training to know what you are looking at. I know you personally and that you are very well educated and experienced in chimney inspections and repairs as are most Certified Chimney Sweeps. However, that does not make them more qualified than a trained FIRE Service inspector. Moreoever, the FIRE Service program encourages additional training from ALL sources, unlike the CSIA, which is an exclusive club that is trying to control the industry and think they hold a monopoly on chimney inspection.

So, before YOU go making blanket statements that are incorrect and misleading yourself, do your homework and read my post again. As for whether or not a CSIA Certified Sweep is "qualifed" to inspect chimneys or not, I won't fall into your trap. What I will say is, what constitutes "qualified" is not up to me or you. The concept of "qualified" is one of personal perception. Three inspectors may be "qualified" to do the same job. However, each may possess certain skill sets that makes them more "qualified" than the others for a certain aspect of that overall inspection. Training, in general, is recognized as being a superlative qualification to just testing alone. I think this applies to Home Inspectors or anyone else doing inspection work. Therefore, I stand by my original remarks.

Respectfully,
Bob Harper

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

Bart, I do not want to get into a flame war on this site with you. I simply clarified a few things for the OP. First, he recommended "I called this for CSIA evaluation for all required repairs or retrofits". Since the CSIA is a certification agency that does not have its own in-house inspectors, this wording seemed improper for his report. That's why I asked if he meant a CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep. Then, I merely pointed out that a CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep is not trained. To be Certified, you only have to pass a written test, that's all. If you want a trained inspector, there are other programs, of which, I recommend the FIRE Service and, to support an advertiser of this FREE site, I support that advertiser so we can continue to have FREE discussion and dissemination of information here. I do NOT see the CSIA advertising here or supporting this site.

Bart, don't put statements into my mouth. I never stated you or anyone else was not qualified to inspect a chimney or recommend repairs. What I pointed out was there is a higher standard that incliudes the training to know what you are looking at. I know you personally and that you are very well educated and experienced in chimney inspections and repairs as are most Certified Chimney Sweeps. However, that does not make them more qualified than a trained FIRE Service inspector. Moreoever, the FIRE Service program encourages additional training from ALL sources, unlike the CSIA, which is an exclusive club that is trying to control the industry and think they hold a monopoly on chimney inspection.

So, before YOU go making blanket statements that are incorrect and misleading yourself, do your homework and read my post again. As for whether or not a CSIA Certified Sweep is "qualifed" to inspect chimneys or not, I won't fall into your trap. What I will say is, what constitutes "qualified" is not up to me or you. The concept of "qualified" is one of personal perception. Three inspectors may be "qualified" to do the same job. However, each may possess certain skill sets that makes them more "qualified" than the others for a certain aspect of that overall inspection. Training, in general, is recognized as being a superlative qualification to just testing alone. I think this applies to Home Inspectors or anyone else doing inspection work. Therefore, I stand by my original remarks.

Respectfully,
Bob Harper

Bob,

No need to think I'm putting words in your mouth - you always have plenty to say anyways!

As you say, "I know you personally and that you are very well educated and experienced in chimney inspections and repairs as are most Certified Chimney Sweeps." - - - That's my point.

Every organization out there, will have inspectors of different calibers and qualifications. I simply want people to realize that a CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep, properly educated and schooled, with field experience is, in fact, qualified to do a NFPA Level 1, 2 or 3 Chimney Inspection and you don't have to be F.I.R.E. Certified exclusively to have the qualifications necessary to do a thorough chimney inspection. There's more than one way to get to a successful conclusion on an inspection.

Sincerely,
A. Bart Ogden, President
Home Safe Hearth & Chimney, Inc.
Wichita, KS

Bob,

Your statement concerning support of this site requires some clarification. You stated;

I merely pointed out that a CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep is not trained. To be Certified, you only have to pass a written test, that's all. If you want a trained inspector, there are other programs, of which, I recommend the FIRE Service and, to support an advertiser of this FREE site, I support that advertiser so we can continue to have FREE discussion and dissemination of information here. I do NOT see the CSIA advertising here or supporting this site.

I inquired about advertising in the form of a banner ad well over a year ago on this site. I was told that they only allow one advertising sponsor per page. Even though FIRE had not renewed their ad at that time, they were given consideration due to their past relationship. So, FIRE will be the only sponsor on this page. As for qualifications to inspect chimneys, NFPA has no requirement. Blanket statements that cast a shadow of doubt over an entire group of 1,700 + professionals will not entice anyone of them to further their knowledge with the FIRE training that I have found to be so beneficial to my business. Rather it serves to fuel this continuing division within the industry. Clearly as Bart pointed out, there are CSIA certified sweeps that have the ability and knowledge to perform inspection, make needed recommendations and also perform repairs when needed.

Randy Brooks
CSIA Vice President

Originally Posted by Randy Brooks

Clearly as Bart pointed out, there are CSIA certified sweeps that have the ability and knowledge to perform inspection, make needed recommendations and also perform repairs when needed.

Randy,

What I think you and Bart missed is that Bob was referring to 'recommending a CSIA certified sweep' *IS NOT* a "guaranty" that the sweep *WILL BE* trained and qualified to do that work.

As you stated above "there are" ... yes, "there are" ... some ... but not all ... "CSIA certified sweeps that have the ability and knowledge to perform inspection".

Whereas a F.I.R.E certified inspector *DOES*. Plain and simple.

There is a big difference between "there are" and "does".

Just like a non-F.I.R.E certified (non-certified) home inspector "may have" "the ability and knowledge to perform inspection". Again, not "does", but "may", as in a CSIA certified sweep "may".

Well you guys seem to be missing the major point that Mr. Peck hit right on the head.
Bart pointed it out himself that a CCS with the right training is qualified. I agree. Problem is, what training is that? You guys like to throw everything out of proportion and then you make the point yourselves. A guy off the shelf who becomes a CCS is certainly not qualified to inspect chimneys regardless of his time in the field, period.

So Bart, what training would you say makes one capable of being a qualified chimney inspector?

Bill Ryan
Ryan and Son Chimney Contractors
Landing, NJ

When I hire a Home Inspector I look at their certifications, qualifications, membership participation, years of service, and most importantly their attendance of continued education. If they simply become a member of one association, and do not continue to grow as an individual and professional, would you hire them? I wouldn’t.

My suggestion is that you recommend only those who have the education to support their service. If you are recommending a sweep then recommend a CSIA Certified Chimney Sweep. If you are recommending installation then recommend an NFI Certified Specialist. If you are recommending an inspection then recommend a F.I.R.E. Certified Fireplace & Chimney Inspector. If you are struggling with this truth, then recommend someone who has all three Certification in the hearth industry. If you are offended by this practical reasoning then I suggest you attend some more courses and become certified in all three categories. It is always a good choice to pick the most qualified. The individual that has all three certifications WILL be more qualified without a doubt.

But please do not assume that ANY one certification qualifies you to perform ALL services in a professional and complete manner.

The F.I.R.E. Service has always recommended that our student achieve as much education as possible. This includes all Certification programs within the Hearth Industry. Other Self Serving INDIVIDUALS within the hearth industry do not have the same view. However, this is not the view of the majority.

I believe that it is time to end this argument and focus on the facts. I am proud to have participated in the development of an association that is unbiased to education and where it comes from. This association will not discriminate against any organization, course or individual. The International Association of Fireplace & Chimney Inspectors officially opened on 01-01-08. You can get more information and participate in the development of the Inspection Division of the hearth industry by going to IAFCI : International Association of Fireplace & Chimney Inspectors : Professional Fireplace, Chimney & Venting Inspectors : Home. I serve as the current IAFCI Secretary and will be glad to answer your questions.

I would like to publicly thank CREIA for their assistance in our new association. I have been working with and providing quality education to professional inspectors since 1990 and I am proud to have many good friends in CREIA, ASHI, NAHI, AII, NACHI and other professional associations. Thank you all for the effort you put forth to find the truth.

Truly,

Dale - Thank you for this post. I now need to go and make some changes to my standard report comment regarding my recommendations for chimney inspections, and you've provided the info that I need.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Randy,

What I think you and Bart missed is that Bob was referring to 'recommending a CSIA certified sweep' *IS NOT* a "guaranty" that the sweep *WILL BE* trained and qualified to do that work.

As you stated above "there are" ... yes, "there are" ... some ... but not all ... "CSIA certified sweeps that have the ability and knowledge to perform inspection".

Whereas a F.I.R.E certified inspector *DOES*. Plain and simple.

There is a big difference between "there are" and "does".

Just like a non-F.I.R.E certified (non-certified) home inspector "may have" "the ability and knowledge to perform inspection". Again, not "does", but "may", as in a CSIA certified sweep "may".

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Jerry,

I didn’t miss this point; in fact, I would agree that no industry certification can “guarantees” an inspector to be qualified. All certification that I have invested in are limited in the individual’s ability to project the information that was presented at the time of instruction. There is no question that my own ability to perform inspection has been elevated by all of the education and certifications that I have achieved and maintained. Therefore, IMHO, any hearth inspector that has any or all certifications available within the industry has the ability to fall short of the standard set forth by NFPA.

There was an article published in the latest edition of an industry magazine featuring an inspector that is currently certified by both FIRE and CSIA. Understanding that there is no guarantee on an inspector’s ability or qualification to perform inspection and or repairs, to anyone’s standard, the publications featured inspector boost about repairing pre-cast concrete fireplaces in California. This is in direct conflict with what I was instructed during my FIRE training. My point is that no certificating can guarantee that any inspector will perform as instructed.

In closing, the word "DOES" implies certainty of ability. Again, in IMHO any inspector "MAY" have the ability and knowledge to perform inspections. As Dale indicated and I concur, the learning should never stop, as I and others continue to educate ourselves with knowledge provided within the industry, our clients will continue to get a better inspection today than the one I provided yesterday. That’s a fact.

Randy Brooks
CSIA Vice President

Originally Posted by Randy Brooks

In closing, the word "DOES" implies certainty of ability. Again, in IMHO any inspector "MAY" have the ability and knowledge to perform inspections.

Randy,

If you read my post, and I am assuming you did, you would have noticed that my use of the word "DOES" was in reference to "trained and qualified", not that the inspector will use that training and qualification.

CSIA *DOES NOT* provide that training (which is under discussion) and F.I.R.E *DOES*.

CSIA *DOES* provide *OTHER* training.

Many inspectors are *BOTH* CSIA and F.I.R.E, in which case the F.I.R.E trained inspector *HAS HAD* that training, while a CSIA inspector who is not also F.I.R.E. trained *MAY HAVE HAD* that training.

Thus, the original comment about recommending a F.I.R.E. inspector and not a CSIA inspector stands are being correct. A dual trained inspector would be responding under their F.I.R.E. training.

the learning should never stop, as I and others continue to educate ourselves with knowledge provided within the industry, our clients will continue to get a better inspection today than the one I provided yesterday. That’s a fact.

Hopefully, that is a statement that ALL inspectors can make.