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  1. #1
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    I inspected fireplace with gas logs installed today that did not have a damper clip installed. Talked to the installer of the gas logs latter, who said it has a switch at the damper lever that shuts off the gas if the damper is closed. At least that is the type he thinks he remembers installing at this house! He said it is a "Golden Blount" gas log set and implied they all have the switch at the damper. I must admit I did not try to close the damper while the logs were lit, and I did not see a switch. If it does have a switch, is it up to code?

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  2. #2
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Vern,

    I am not a fireplace specialist, but I do install a good many log sets. I have never seen any without damper clips.

    I checked Gloden Blount's site, they only show 3 sets of vented logs and all 3 require damper clips.

    Welcome to GoldenBlount, Inc.


  3. #3
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    Vern,

    I am not a fireplace specialist, but I do install a good many log sets. I have never seen any without damper clips.

    I checked Gloden Blount's site, they only show 3 sets of vented logs and all 3 require damper clips.

    Welcome to GoldenBlount, Inc.
    Thanks Chris. I didn't find anything either. Have you seen or heard of the switch on the damper control?


  4. #4
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Have you seen or heard of the switch on the damper control?
    I have not, but agian, we just install the log kits from a supplier, on our projects.

    I'm not sure but I think the clips are code, and if so, wouldn that not fall under the "which ever is more restrictive"?


  5. #5
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    I have not, but agian, we just install the log kits from a supplier, on our projects.

    I'm not sure but I think the clips are code, and if so, wouldn that not fall under the "which ever is more restrictive"?
    When I said "It still needs a clip by code" he puffed up and said code says it doesn't with the switch installed. Unless someone gives me a code to ref. I'm going to write it up as needs clip.


  6. #6
    Bob Harper's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    It sounds like you have something like this: Welcome to GoldenBlount, Inc.

    There is a big difference btw 'vented gas logs', which are listed to ANSI Z21.60 or Z21.84 and a 'decorative appliance' listed to ANSI Z21.50 such as this fireplace in the link. Longs are installed into a suitable woodburning fireplace. The thing in this brochure IS a fireplace. Self contained box, logs, gas train, integral damper w/ microswitch and venting. Vented logs require the damper be removed or fixed in such a manner as to maintain a minimum permanent net free opening of X amt. based upon the listing or the input BTU firing rate. This usually starts at 50 sq. inches, which equates to an 8" round pipe. In Mass you must remove the damper or weld it wide open. However, with a listed appliance such as the one in the link, the damper function is covered by the listing. In this case, it has an interlock to the gas control. This is usually a microswitch wired in series with the low voltage circuit. Opening the damper closes the contact and breaks on closing the damper. There are some B-vented gas fireplaces listed to ANSI Z21.50 that have a bimetal butterfly damper that do not have any sort of safety interlock. These dampers are unreliable and often dangerous. They are often field installed by techs with no written instructions as to which way is up.

    If you locate the rating plate and photograph it, it will save you a lot of hassles and worry down the road.

    HTH,
    Bob

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  7. #7
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    It sounds like you have something like this: Welcome to GoldenBlount, Inc.

    If you locate the rating plate and photograph it, it will save you a lot of hassles and worry down the road.

    HTH,
    Bob
    I think it is "something like this: Welcome to GoldenBlount, Inc." But without moving logs and ember stuff I could not locate any plate. The logs did not ignite when the damper was opened so I am going to recommend installing the damper clip. What the heck, its only a couple of bucks in a 1.2M house.

    Thanks Bob


  8. #8
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    It sounds like you have something like this: Welcome to GoldenBlount, Inc.

    There is a big difference btw 'vented gas logs', which are listed to ANSI Z21.60 or Z21.84 and a 'decorative appliance' listed to ANSI Z21.50 such as this fireplace in the link. Longs are installed into a suitable woodburning fireplace. The thing in this brochure IS a fireplace. Self contained box, logs, gas train, integral damper w/ microswitch and venting. Vented logs require the damper be removed or fixed in such a manner as to maintain a minimum permanent net free opening of X amt. based upon the listing or the input BTU firing rate. This usually starts at 50 sq. inches, which equates to an 8" round pipe. In Mass you must remove the damper or weld it wide open. However, with a listed appliance such as the one in the link, the damper function is covered by the listing. In this case, it has an interlock to the gas control. This is usually a microswitch wired in series with the low voltage circuit. Opening the damper closes the contact and breaks on closing the damper. There are some B-vented gas fireplaces listed to ANSI Z21.50 that have a bimetal butterfly damper that do not have any sort of safety interlock. These dampers are unreliable and often dangerous. They are often field installed by techs with no written instructions as to which way is up.

    If you locate the rating plate and photograph it, it will save you a lot of hassles and worry down the road.

    HTH,
    Bob
    Ran into my first bi-metal butterfly damper. Could not find the listing tag or test for operation. I could see the gas shutoff valve through the grill on the front, but I could not find a way to get to it. The grill cover was screwed in from the top and had sealant on the side and bottom edges. Shouldn't the valve be readily accessible? What is the best recommendation? (Bank foreclosure)

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Ran into my first bi-metal butterfly damper. Could not find the listing tag or test for operation. I could see the gas shutoff valve through the grill on the front, but I could not find a way to get to it. The grill cover was screwed in from the top and had sealant on the side and bottom edges. Shouldn't the valve be readily accessible? What is the best recommendation? (Bank foreclosure)

    See pdf file clickable link follows for your earlier posts (don't understand WHY you'd be recommending a clip/clamp to keep open if was indeed such a product, or for that matter report other than that there was no manual present, you were unable to locate valves, plates, etc., and to recommend a qualified technician in to identify, service, and evaluate the appliance?!?), note side access panel to valve from within, also note damper control arm location:

    http://www.goldenblountinc.com/pdf/S...%20Install.pdf

    See this next pdf link for your latest picture/post (quoted above), see if that helps you, might be the unit (confused why you'd be using your finger to pull on and bend not using control for damper?!?). You can damage unit and interfere with safe operation that way, recommend qualified technician to inspect, identify, test, and service, esp. with non-disclosure unknown history on REO, needs it regularly anyway! :

    http://www.goldenblountinc.com/updat...s%20Manual.pdf

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-04-2010 at 08:26 AM.

  10. #10
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    See pdf file clickable link follows for your earlier posts (don't understand WHY you'd be recommending a clip/clamp to keep open if was indeed such a product, or for that matter report other than that there was no manual present, you were unable to locate valves, plates, etc., and to recommend a qualified technician in to identify, service, and evaluate the appliance?!?), note side access panel to valve from within, also note damper control arm location:

    http://www.goldenblountinc.com/pdf/S...%20Install.pdf

    See this next pdf link for your latest picture/post (quoted above), see if that helps you, might be the unit (confused why you'd be using your finger to pull on and bend not using control for damper?!?). You can damage unit and interfere with safe operation that way, recommend qualified technician to inspect, identify, test, and service, esp. with non-disclosure unknown history on REO, needs it regularly anyway! :

    http://www.goldenblountinc.com/updat...s%20Manual.pdf
    H.G. Thanks for the try. This fireplace did not have an access on the side and I could see the red valve through the grill on the front. Just no way to get to it unless possibly from above with the logs removed. The butter fly damper had no levers attached, just the bi-metallic springs. As much as I hate to, I am going to defer to gas fireplace specialist.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Here's another b-vent candidate(s) with lots of options, Empire:

    http://www.empirecomfort.com/EMPIREC...1-0610-BVD.pdf

    (see fig.8) and pgs 28+ for removal of lower louver, etc. and bottom left of pp 38 of 40 for location of rating plate, labels and gas controls and access.

    Hearth and Home other possible b-vent decorative vented gas-fired fireplaces.

    Sure there must be others.

    If hearth access should be able to do so without touching logs or grate.


  12. #12
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    When I said "It still needs a clip by code" he puffed up and said code says it doesn't with the switch installed. Unless someone gives me a code to ref. I'm going to write it up as needs clip.
    I would write up the missing damper stop as a repair item and if the fireplace specialist says it's OK without it at least you tried. Did the house have a CO detector installed? If not I would add that to the report also.


  13. #13
    Bob Harper's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    If its like the two pdf's HG posted then they are 'gas appliances' and NOT vented gas logs so a damper clamp would NOT be indicated. You guys keep grasping for straws. Find the rating plate with the ANSI std. and that will tell you what you're dealing with. On these B-vented gas fireplaces, it is usually found under the main firebox floor by moving some volcanic rock and opening the access panel. It should be a sticker on the floor the of the firebox, a metal tag chained to the box or a sticker on the underside of the access panel. Otherwise, it would be as with woodburners as a metal tag pop riveted either on the smoke shield, inside firebox side panels above the refractory walls or out front on the ventilation louvers to either side.

    Keep in mind the clamp is provided by vented log mfrs. as a convenience and to cover their butts. You can remove the damper or find other means acceptable to the AHJ but the important thing is that it is placed to maintain a minimum permanent net free opening as prescribed in the codes or in the listed instructions, which ever is more restrictive. That usually means wide open btw.

    I like that ridiculous language in those instructions manuals that says do not install this fireplace in a negative pressure environment. That means you cannot install them in virtually any home. I would use that alone as a recommendation for a full tearout/ replacement with a gas direct vent. These B-vented gas fireplaces do not provide any appreciable heat, suck about 300-400 cfm up the stack when burning, lose about 150 cfm up the stack at standby or allow infiltration of cold air 24/7/365. They have no place in modern homes. They were a cheap alternative for cheap builders.

    Bob

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  14. #14
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    Any fireplace that has a set of gas "anything" in the firebox that says vented on the tags on the gas "anything" will get the recommendation that it needs a stop on the damper. That is not "grasping for straws"....this is CYA. If the gas "anything" has no tags then it is automatically the vented type. If somebody can show that I am wrong then I have no problem with that. Not a big deal really since the clamp is about $1.50.


  15. #15
    Bob Harper's Avatar
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    Exclamation don't modify listed appliances and components

    James, if you put a damper clamp on a bimetal damper on a listed appliance and it hangs up, you could kill someone. To modify a listed appliance or component is a code violation and negligent.

    The clamp is to keep the damper open 24/7. A bimetal damper closes when cooled off. You defeat the listed component and cause a huge amt. of cold air infiltration and energy loss.

    If an appliance has no tag then it is unlisted and therefore should be removed.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: don't modify listed appliances and components

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    There is a big difference btw (between) 'vented gas logs', which are listed to ANSI Z21.60 or Z21.84 and a 'decorative appliance' listed to ANSI Z21.50 such as this fireplace in the link

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    Any fireplace that has a set of gas "anything" in the firebox that says vented on the tags on the gas "anything" will get the recommendation that it needs a stop on the damper. That is not "grasping for straws"....this is CYA. If the gas "anything" has no tags then it is automatically the vented type. If somebody can show that I am wrong then I have no problem with that. Not a big deal really since the clamp is about $1.50.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    James, if you put a damper clamp on a bimetal damper on a listed appliance and it hangs up, you could kill someone. To modify a listed appliance or component is a code violation and negligent.

    The clamp is to keep the damper open 24/7. A bimetal damper closes when cooled off. You defeat the listed component and cause a huge amt. of cold air infiltration and energy loss.

    If an appliance has no tag then it is unlisted and therefore should be removed.
    I believe this needed to be emphasized. Color, font size, bolding and underlining above was not original.

    Mr. James Duffin, is somehow "not getting" the DISTINCTIONS WITH A DIFFERENCE between the requirements, safety, standards and codes for these things, and the explanations seem to completely escape him. I fear some other reader would miss the distinctions and make a similar mistake (as Vern Heiler indicated in the first part of this thread) and assume Mr. Duffin or V.H. earlier) was RIGHT!

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-04-2010 at 08:43 PM.

  17. #17
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vented gas logs don't need damper clip?

    H.G. and all else. Please note this thread was started 11-11-09 on a completely different fireplace! I guess I should have started a new thread but this one had good info from Bob H.

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  18. #18
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: don't modify listed appliances and components

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    James, if you put a damper clamp on a bimetal damper on a listed appliance and it hangs up, you could kill someone.
    I'll take that into condideration if and when I run into a bimetal damper. So far all I have run across is the manual kind.


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