Bob Harper - question for you :-) - InspectionNews

Jerry Peck · #1 (**permalink**) 03-17-2010, 05:11 PM

Fire rings ...

Kind of like a 'circular gas log starter' ... what listing is there for these things, if any?

Here is an example: Dagan Industries, Inc.

Bob Harper · #2 (**permalink**) 03-18-2010, 05:33 AM

To answer your question- As far as I know, there isn't any. There is a project working on one. It originated under the title of OOFDA-Outdoor Open Flame Decorative Appliance. That was changed because some "fire pits" and other similar appliances have an enclosed flame but are outdoors. There are many challenges with this type of appliance. Dale Feb as tried to show them just some of the malfunctions such as flames shooting horizontally over 3 feet to where they could literally roast someone sitting on a bench they thought was far enough away. It isn't just clearances to combustibles---you need clearance to people as well. The wind cools the flame causing sometimes huge amts of soot and CO. If the flame blows out, you need reliable flame proving to prevent fugitive gas. They use a huge amt. of gas to get all that flame so they are energy hogs. Where do you put the shutoff?Control?

Here is a link where one jurisdiction did they own thing for now: Open-Flame Cooking Devices - Fairfax County, VA

There is a section in the 2009 NFPA 54 Handbook Annex, meaning it is not code but informative.

HTH,
Bob

Corn Walker · #3 (**permalink**) 03-18-2010, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

Here is a link where one jurisdiction did they own thing for now: Open-Flame Cooking Devices - Fairfax County, VA

There is a section in the 2009 NFPA 54 Handbook Annex, meaning it is not code but informative.

Strangely, even though the title page for that link says it's for Open-Flame Cooking Devices it's actually for Open-Flame Decorative Devices:

Quote:

This publication does not address open-flame cooking devices, outdoor solid fuel burning devices, flaming food and beverage preparation, or open-flame torches used for removing paint.

I think the link you want is:
Open-Flame Cooking Devices.

Jerry Peck · #4 (**permalink**) 03-18-2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

To answer your question- As far as I know, there isn't any.

That is what I thought, and had been told, but was hoping it not correct.

I have a restaurant I am inspecting which has installed a masonry fire pit with lava rock in it with a 36 inch fire ring installed in it.

The gas company which installed the gas line (without a permit) has pulled the permit and is ready for it to be inspected. Of course, now I have to figure out how to inspect a buried, concealed, gas line and determine that it is "okay" or "not okay".

I called Jeff Dagan with Dagan Industries (who made the fire ring) and he said he has sold hundreds of thousands of the fire rings and *I WAS THE FIRST INSPECTOR TO CALL HIM* and ask about any listing or labeling for them. He was completely shocked that I wanted to see an approval of some type, preferably an AGA listing or something equivalent.

Quote:

There is a project working on one. It originated under the title of OOFDA-Outdoor Open Flame Decorative Appliance. That was changed because some "fire pits" and other similar appliances have an enclosed flame but are outdoors. There are many challenges with this type of appliance. Dale Feb as tried to show them just some of the malfunctions such as flames shooting horizontally over 3 feet to where they could literally roast someone sitting on a bench they thought was far enough away. It isn't just clearances to combustibles---you need clearance to people as well. The wind cools the flame causing sometimes huge amts of soot and CO. If the flame blows out, you need reliable flame proving to prevent fugitive gas. They use a huge amt. of gas to get all that flame so they are energy hogs. Where do you put the shutoff?Control?

Precisely some of my concerns.

They have a standard 1/4 turn gas shut off valve with no regulating ability to the gas flow (other than what is very limited by a 1/4 turn shut off valve) and a regulator. These are probably 8-10 feet from the fire pit.

Quote:

Here is a link where one jurisdiction did they own thing for now: Open-Flame Cooking Devices - Fairfax County, VA

Thank you, that is a very good starting place.

Quote:

There is a section in the 2009 NFPA 54 Handbook Annex, meaning it is not code but informative.

Do you have that you can copy and paste for me?

While searching based on your term "open flame" I added "gas devices" and then added "Florida" and found this which may be useful to you and Dale (albeit of limited use as the declaratory statement found the "open flame devices" to be "outside" the assembly occupancy and thus the application of NFPA 101 did not apply - still makes interesting reading): http://www.myfloridacfo.com/SFM/decl...1315-04(2).pdf

Jerry Peck · #5 (**permalink**) 03-21-2010, 10:57 AM

Bob,

I forgot to update you on what I could find:
In the Florida Fire Prevention Code, NFPA 1 section, 10.11.7 it states (and there are no margin markings indicating this is 'Florida wording') it states "For other than one- and two-family dwellings, no hibachi, gas-fired grill, charcoal frill, or other similar devices used for cooking, heating, or any other purpose, shall be used or kindled on any balcony, under any overhanging portion or within 10 ft (3 m) of any structure. Listed electric ranges, grills, or similar electrical apparatus shall be permitted."

That means, for the restaurant, the fire ring is not allowed within 10 feet of any part of any structure, which includes the outdoor seating area and the Chickee Huts - which are surrounding the fire ring.

Billy Stephens · #6 (**permalink**) 03-21-2010, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

.
the Chickee Huts - .

.
.
Dang,

We don't call them that Around Here.
* must be the sand.

.