Ok, I flagged this as soon as I saw it. The buyer brought in a "Fireplace Person" who said "It is what it is... not much you can do" but the buyers parents asked that I look into it a bit further.

The Gas line runs through the basement which has a suspended ceiling. I was thinking of a Floor valve with one of those nice escutcheons.

I also could use some verbage on the "badness" of this.

The fireplace was put in by the builder, along with the connection, but I don't think they provided the insert, a way around the rules perhaps.

It is a Wood burning fireplace with a natural gas connection and a Gas valve in the Firebox. I was trained that this was an absolute no-no, but it passed the county inspection 5 years ago.

Bob Sisson

Attached Images

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Why is it a problem? This is allowed under the IRC, which Maryland is under. You have an ANSI Z21.15 gas shutoff installed within 6 feet of the fireplace.

FYI, there is no insert installed here. There is a vented gas log set installed into a masonry fireplace.

That gas pipe should be packed and sealed where it exists the conduit.

Bob

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disgusted with some people on this forum. Out of here!

Hey Bob S - So now you want common sense in the codes? Heck, in an emergency who would not want to stick their hand in the firebox!

One thing you might want to tell your clients is they will need a fire screen. The gas log set manufacturer manuals that I have read state the set should be operated with the glass doors open, and only with a fire screen.

Jim

Apparently the code has changed. I thought it used to say no valves in the firebox... but reading some of the NFPA minuets, it was changed a while back to allow it.

Don't like it, but the codes allow it... Still prefer the valve in the wall/floor with the pretty escutcheon.

I tell my clients that it is a potential safety issue, and they need to KNOW where the main gas shut off is in case a problem comes up and they need to shut off the gas logs in a hurry (and they don't want to risk setting their arm on fire).
JF

Well, I agree with Bob, not that he needs any further support. I do not see a problem with the construction minus the packing around the gas line entry. This is a preferred method of construction here, the shutoff is easily accessible it is just fine. I always recommend new buyers obtain, read, and understand the owners manual for the gas log set that is installed, or the fireplace...whatever.

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If I had two faces, would I be wearing this one?
Abraham Lincoln

Two shut offs are required aren't they. One being away from the unit in case of not being able to reach that one in the box. And an electric shut off swith to boot. or am I wrong as usual?

I haven't heard that one, not that it isn't right, just haven't heard it. Anyone?

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If I had two faces, would I be wearing this one?
Abraham Lincoln

Well, that goes to show how one can "read" into things. I had also assumed that the 6 foot rule obviously meant that the silly thing couldn't be in the fireplace with the fire. I spent a while looking hard at the code trying to make it say "not in the fireplace", but it doesn't.

I did write up one a while back, but the valve was at the rear of the fireplace and you had to reach thru or around the fire to shut it off. Not bright. Also it was sweated copper in the fireplace.

Oh well...

Bruce

One shutoff per appliance. Keep in mind what this shutoff is for: service. It is NOT an emergency shutoff. That is located at the meter outside. In the event of a major gas leak, the code expects you to get the hell out of the house and call the calvalry from a neighbor's. The code does Not expect you to reach into a combustible vapor cloud to shut off the gas. That includes hanging out in the same soom. Do you think the codes expect your wife to pull the gas dryer or range and shutoff the gas by themselves? It needs to be where a service tech, working on his knees, can easily reach it while servicing the appliance.

A word or two on key valves: they have more problems than your standard shutoff. They tend to leak gas, esp. those with a rising stem that need 21 throws of the wrist to shutoff, the owners always misplace the key( the bratty kid took it), again the stem rising valves have a lot of flow resistance. You cannot run soft copper to them since they are usually located in concealed areas where flare fittings are not allowed. Some use a 1/4" square key while others use a 5/16" square key. Most cannot take more than about 5psi under a pressure test.

Under the IRC, shutoffs can be located remote of the appliance as long as they meet 3 criteria: they are plainly marked as to what appliance they serve, they serve only one appliance, and they are "readily accessible". Now, follow the emergency shutoff thought---how do you tell if you shut the gas on or off when you're standing outdoors or in the basement? You don't---its for service.

HTH,
Bob

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disgusted with some people on this forum. Out of here!

I am really surprised that a keyed valve is not required in that case. I believe that it is much easier to hide the key and keep it away from that "bratty" kid than allow them access to a 1/4 turn valve that they can easily turn on with no one around.

Remember, we are not hobbled by the code. We can recommend more than the minimum required by code.

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The apostrophe troll.

I would not want *anyone* hiding that key.

I always told my clients that those key valves were dumb - what is going to happen when the key is lost ... aka 'someone hid the key'.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

You may find some that have a metal chain leash attaching the key to the escutcheon. It looks like hell, gets tangled up when cleaning floors and still gets yanked off. One kid found he could use the screw attachment of this chain to the brass escutcheon as a handle to unscrew the escutcheon then lose them all. The homeowner had to buy an entire valve just to get the new escutcheon, which come in polished brass and chrome finishes btw.

I'm not kidding about them leaking. In developments where they test at high pressures, these valves always leaked after the testing. Also, you want to pressure test before you enclose that wall or floor where this is mounted. Had several cases where the surrounding finish materials were very expensive to remove to get wrenches at that valve. Also, they never install a ground union on either side of it you to replace it when piped with black iron, you have to saw the pipe in half, replace everything but incorporate a union to get it all back together. You are not supposed to be concealing ground unions because they are notorious leakers, esp. when the pipe dope puts pipe dope on the face of the seat.

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disgusted with some people on this forum. Out of here!

AH very interesting, Thanks for the info. wayne

The [2000 IRC] and {UPC} codes require a shut-off valve outside the firebox and within [6'] {4'} of the hearth. If I don't see this additional valve I write it as lacking the required safety valve. CYA

Sometimes they are covered by carpet, located inside the built-in book shelves, or on the wall. Once I found one 20' away on the opposite side of the room on a wall. That one I gently suggested it was farther away than required and should be moved closer.

Here was that dreaded message again:

The following errors occurred when this message was submitted:

1. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

Okay dang nab it:

Gomer Pyle
Maxwell Smart
Opie Taylor
Lucy
Rob Petrie

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

[quote=Jerry Peck;16218]I would not want *anyone* hiding that key.

Personally, I would rather purchase a new key than have the house go up in flames because some kid opened the 1/4 turn gas shutoff valve. Now, a leaking valve mentioned by Bob Harper would indeed be a problem.

By the way, I thought the 1/4 turn gas shutoff valves (like the one in Bob Sisson's pic) were just for shutoff, not for flow control as you would need for a burner.

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The apostrophe troll.

Jerry,

Which Lucy? van Pelt or "Ricardo"

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The apostrophe troll.

I was checking on the code reference for this discussion and ran across this exception in my 2000 edition of the NJ IRC – G2419.5 Equipment Shutoff valve.

“Exception: Shutoff valves for vented decorative appliances and decorative appliances for installation in a vented fireplaces shall not be prohibited from being installed in an area remote from the appliance where such valves are provided with ready access. Such valves shall be permanently identified and shall serve no other equipment.”

My question is "remote from the appliance". So according to this code reference a gas log set shutoff valve could be located in the basement below the fireplace. It does not have to be located within 6’, correct? (or am I misreading this?)


Jim

Perhaps a recheck of the exact wording is needed regarding the code. Simply locating the shut off "within 6 feet" could mean below the floor, in the basement, two feet from the control valve. Sorry, but that is not safe. Just because a code official put the "OK" on it doesn't mean a thing. Around here, code officials are paid off all the time. A home inspection is not a code inspection, and that gas valve installation is unsafe. It's just wrong, period. The possibility of litigation if something goes wrong should be sufficient motivation for a seller to pay to have the valve moved, or move it themselves.

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Randy Aldering, RHI CHI
Housesmithe Home Inspection
www.housesmithe.com