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  1. #66
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Caoimhín.

    Thanks for the sound information. Now that I have your contact information I will send my Buyers and sellers to your web site for sound advise on there new homes that may have condition that need further attention then I give.
    I did call up my local Industrial Hygienist (Chip) We went over information that you and I have talk about. He is for the most part on the same page as you are. But i did get some reserve from him. I think he may not want to stick his head out for fear of getting it chop off by some law firm.

    Thanks for the education on mould.

    It been a pleasure to correspond with you about mold.

    Best

    Ron Bibler

    2018 ASHI InspectionWorld

  2. #67
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Some one of these posts or several stated that not all mold has to be removed.

    Sorry, get it gone. You want to live in and around mold, any mold? I think not. Take care of the moisture problem. Clean up the mold or remove item covered in mold. Live in a clean healthy world. Yes all homes have mold. No matter what expert on here says mold is not a problem or those that say it does not have to be removed, Fooey.

    Your all nuts. I see mold in my living space or outside my living space and I get rid of it.

    Gee. I have never been bit by a black widow (or have I) but I am not going to let one bite me and then sit around and see what affect it may have!

    Please folks. If there is mold it has to go away and of course the cause for it.

    Does there really need to have a further discussion over it?

    Well, I do like interesting discusiion.

    Lets see. I will fix the moisture problem and then just sit there for a day, week, month to see if the mold goes away or if it will have an affect.

    Uh oh, gotta go, I feel a sneeze coming on. Gotta get the windex out and clean that mildewy looking stuff up.


  3. #68
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    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    You will never get rid of all the mould, and to think so is folly. What about the mould spores that fill the air? What will you do with those? Sneeze, wheez, cough.


  4. #69
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Some one of these posts or several stated that not all mold has to be removed.

    Sorry, get it gone. You want to live in and around mold, any mold? I think not. Take care of the moisture problem. Clean up the mold or remove item covered in mold. Live in a clean healthy world. Yes all homes have mold. No matter what expert on here says mold is not a problem or those that say it does not have to be removed, Fooey.

    Your all nuts. I see mold in my living space or outside my living space and I get rid of it.

    Gee. I have never been bit by a black widow (or have I) but I am not going to let one bite me and then sit around and see what affect it may have!

    Please folks. If there is mold it has to go away and of course the cause for it.

    Does there really need to have a further discussion over it?

    Well, I do like interesting discusiion.

    Lets see. I will fix the moisture problem and then just sit there for a day, week, month to see if the mold goes away or if it will have an affect.

    Uh oh, gotta go, I feel a sneeze coming on. Gotta get the windex out and clean that mildewy looking stuff up.
    If you can see it like on and interior wall then is cosmetic. yes fix it.
    As Caoimhín posted.
    Aesthetics
    The mould occurs in a cruddy, dirty, crawlspace that looks like a normal cruddy dirty crawlspace – if aesthetics were an issue, the homeowner would have already cleaned out the cobwebs, and painted the timbers (with a nice bright coat of paint -possibly a nice baby blue with some white trim for accentuating the highlights of a good crawlspace). Or not. Therefore, since aesthetics are clearly not an issue in this crawlspace, the mould could have degraded that quality and so that criteria too has not been met.

    Best

    Ron


  5. #70
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Some one of these posts or several stated that not all mold has to be removed.

    Sorry, get it gone. You want to live in and around mold, any mold? I think not. Take care of the moisture problem. Clean up the mold or remove item covered in mold. Live in a clean healthy world. Yes all homes have mold. No matter what expert on here says mold is not a problem or those that say it does not have to be removed, Fooey.

    Your all nuts. I see mold in my living space or outside my living space and I get rid of it.

    Gee. I have never been bit by a black widow (or have I) but I am not going to let one bite me and then sit around and see what affect it may have!

    Please folks. If there is mold it has to go away and of course the cause for it.

    Does there really need to have a further discussion over it?

    Well, I do like interesting discusiion.

    Lets see. I will fix the moisture problem and then just sit there for a day, week, month to see if the mold goes away or if it will have an affect.

    Uh oh, gotta go, I feel a sneeze coming on. Gotta get the windex out and clean that mildewy looking stuff up.
    If you can see it like on and interior wall then is cosmetic. yes fix it.
    As Caoimhín posted.
    Aesthetics
    The mould occurs in a cruddy, dirty, crawlspace that looks like a normal cruddy dirty crawlspace – if aesthetics were an issue, the homeowner would have already cleaned out the cobwebs, and painted the timbers (with a nice bright coat of paint -possibly a nice baby blue with some white trim for accentuating the highlights of a good crawlspace). Or not. Therefore, since aesthetics are clearly not an issue in this crawlspace, the mould could have degraded that quality and so that criteria too has not been met.

    Best

    Ron


  6. #71

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Erratum:

    In the referenced post, the sentence

    “Therefore, since aesthetics are clearly not an issue in this crawlspace, the mould could have degraded that quality and so that criteria too has not been met.”

    should have read:

    “Therefore, since aesthetics are clearly not an issue in this crawlspace, the mould could not have degraded that quality and so that criteria too has not been met.”

    I edited the original post to correct the typo.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG


  7. #72
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    If you can see it like on and interior wall then is cosmetic. yes fix it.
    As Caoimhín posted.
    Aesthetics
    The mold occurs in a cruddy, dirty, crawlspace that looks like a normal cruddy dirty crawlspace – if aesthetics were an issue, the homeowner would have already cleaned out the cobwebs, and painted the timbers (with a nice bright coat of paint -possibly a nice baby blue with some white trim for accentuating the highlights of a good crawlspace). Or not. Therefore, since aesthetics are clearly not an issue in this crawlspace, the mold could have degraded that quality and so that criteria too has not been met.

    Best


    Ron
    As you very well know Ron, mold is alive. Yes you can get rid of moisture in a home but in a crawl it will more than likely will not happen.

    How many times have you seen brown rot or white rot. Polite way of saying mold. The living mold eats into the wood. It deteriorates the wood fibers. In can and most likely will cause future concerns.

    At the least A quick wire brushing and some timbor will do the trick. It should be removed.

    Mold is certainly not gold. It is an organism that is going to reek some kind of havoc some where.

    As you say. You, from what you know of, have never had a problem with all the molds you ran into. Me either. Well, maybe a little sneezing from that musky damp moldy, mildewy thing but I believe that has been it. Another fact is I do not live in and around mold. Now if my crawl space had some kind, any kind of mold growth, would I have problems? Don't know. Don't have a crawl anyway.

    You mentioned in one of your posts that you inspected a home that had mold on every wall. Personally, I have been around construction all my life. That would not have been the first home that I told a client that the drywall should all be removed and the insulation in the attic as well.

    If there is that much of a mold problem in a home it is time for a gut and rehab.

    Just my opinion. I may have not used all the highly technical terms in my post but, oh well, said well enough to get my opinion across.

    I have said in many posts before.

    Keep it simple stupid .


  8. #73
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    As you very well know Ron, mold is alive. Yes you can get rid of moisture in a home but in a crawl it will more than likely will not happen.

    How many times have you seen brown rot or white rot. Polite way of saying mold. The living mold eats into the wood. It deteriorates the wood fibers. In can and most likely will cause future concerns.

    At the least A quick wire brushing and some timbor will do the trick. It should be removed.

    Mold is certainly not gold. It is an organism that is going to reek some kind of havoc some where.

    As you say. You, from what you know of, have never had a problem with all the molds you ran into. Me either. Well, maybe a little sneezing from that musky damp moldy, mildewy thing but I believe that has been it. Another fact is I do not live in and around mold. Now if my crawl space had some kind, any kind of mold growth, would I have problems? Don't know. Don't have a crawl anyway.

    You mentioned in one of your posts that you inspected a home that had mold on every wall. Personally, I have been around construction all my life. That would not have been the first home that I told a client that the drywall should all be removed and the insulation in the attic as well.

    If there is that much of a mold problem in a home it is time for a gut and rehab.

    Just my opinion. I may have not used all the highly technical terms in my post but, oh well, said well enough to get my opinion across.

    I have said in many posts before.

    Keep it simple stupid .
    Ted we are on the same page. if the wall is all black yes remove it and dry out the wall voids and fix the moisture.

    The point that you should look at is the air all around you is full of mold. you are breathing this suff now. and theres is nothing you can do
    about thats a fact. inside and out side.

    Best

    Ron


  9. #74
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    Ted we are on the same page. if the wall is all black yes remove it and dry out the wall voids and fix the moisture.

    The point that you should look at is the air all around you is full of mold. you are breathing this suff now. and theres is nothing you can do
    about thats a fact. inside and out side.

    Best

    Ron

    Yeah but limited. I don't let my wall get moldy or have mold growing benieth my feet in large quantities. Mold, pollen, dust mights, all a fact of life but we can limit there intrusiveness (is that a word)


  10. #75

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Good morning, Gents: (Ted and Ron):

    I actually think you are pretty much both on the same page, and take a reasonable approach.

    However, Ted, just some points of clarification on rots. Most of the moulds (indeed, virtually all of the moulds), under discussion here do not degrade wood to the extent of compromising structural integrity - they are superficial blooms only. The fungi that degrade wood are macrofungi and are not really a part of the mould discussion.

    Therefore, arguing that one needs to remove moulds from timbers so the mould won’t degrade the structural integrity of the timber is not really a valid argument.

    Finally, just as a reminder there is NO correlation between the mould in one’s house and the spore concentrations one is breathing; that is one of the silly myths propogated by guys like Scott Sauer and other CMR/CMIs who otherwise don't really know much about mould.

    Some of the MOULDIEST houses also have some of the LOWEST airborne spore counts. There is a good reason for that. The net result is that it is not appropriate to presume that just because someone has visible mould growing in their home, they must necessarily be breathing higher concentrations of mould spores – it just doesn’t work that way.

    That was in fact, one of the errors which fatally flawed several of the earlier scientific studies on human exposures, wherein the researchers (who should have known better) make the unsupported assumption. The net result was that the assumption, which was false, killed the validity of their studies.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG


  11. #76
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell View Post
    Good morning, Gents:

    Finally, just as a reminder there is NO correlation between the mould in one’s house and the spore concentrations one is breathing; that is one of the silly myths propogated by guys like Scott Sauer and other CMR/CMIs who otherwise don't really know much about mould.

    Some of the MOULDIEST houses also have some of the LOWEST airborne spore counts. There is a good reason for that. The net result is that it is not appropriate to presume that just because someone has visible mould growing in their home, they must necessarily be breathing higher concentrations of mould spores – it just doesn’t work that way.

    That was in fact, one of the errors which fatally flawed several of the earlier scientific studies on human exposures, wherein the researchers (who should have known better) make the unsupported assumption. The net result was that the assumption, which was false, killed the validity of their studies.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG
    Caoimhin. Can you go just a bit more on what the mould is doing when its one a wall as to what the spores are doing in the air. If I understand correctly we don" need to get our head out of joint over some black stuff on the wall.

    So if we start to remove the Sheetrock then do we need to protection like a dust mask? other the just for dust but not for mould spores.

    At what point will we need to suit up and do the has-mat thing for mould removal?

    Best

    Ron


  12. #77
    Mark Northrup's Avatar
    Mark Northrup Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell View Post
    Good morning, Gents: (Ted and Ron):

    I actually think you are pretty much both on the same page, and take a reasonable approach.

    However, Ted, just some points of clarification on rots. Most of the moulds (indeed, virtually all of the moulds), under discussion here do not degrade wood to the extent of compromising structural integrity - they are superficial blooms only. The fungi that degrade wood are macrofungi and are not really a part of the mould discussion.

    Therefore, arguing that one needs to remove moulds from timbers so the mould won’t degrade the structural integrity of the timber is not really a valid argument.

    Finally, just as a reminder there is NO correlation between the mould in one’s house and the spore concentrations one is breathing; that is one of the silly myths propogated by guys like Scott Sauer and other CMR/CMIs who otherwise don't really know much about mould.

    Some of the MOULDIEST houses also have some of the LOWEST airborne spore counts. There is a good reason for that. The net result is that it is not appropriate to presume that just because someone has visible mould growing in their home, they must necessarily be breathing higher concentrations of mould spores – it just doesn’t work that way.

    That was in fact, one of the errors which fatally flawed several of the earlier scientific studies on human exposures, wherein the researchers (who should have known better) make the unsupported assumption. The net result was that the assumption, which was false, killed the validity of their studies.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG
    Mr. Connell
    good morning i sent you a private post i hope you got it. One Question that i have is. If mould grows indoors and is alowed to continue to grow. then my understanding it multiplies in number. Like if you leave something in the fridge it will get bigger and nastier the longer you leave it. So if more mould spores enter the air. one is to deduct that the count in the air would increase. If not then 1. where do the spores go. Do they die or are they MIA(Missing In Action). I understand in a house doors/ windows are opened and closed. But with house being built more draft proof indoor air quality is decreasing. Formaldhyde from carpets, Voc's from paint. 2. Or is it that there is no way of positively testing the spore count. And then we don't know if there is a increase in spore count numbers or not.


  13. #78
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell View Post
    Good morning, Gents: (Ted and Ron):

    I actually think you are pretty much both on the same page, and take a reasonable approach.

    However, Ted, just some points of clarification on rots. Most of the moulds (indeed, virtually all of the moulds), under discussion here do not degrade wood to the extent of compromising structural integrity - they are superficial blooms only. The fungi that degrade wood are macrofungi and are not really a part of the mould discussion.

    Therefore, arguing that one needs to remove moulds from timbers so the mould won’t degrade the structural integrity of the timber is not really a valid argument.

    Finally, just as a reminder there is NO correlation between the mould in one’s house and the spore concentrations one is breathing; that is one of the silly myths propogated by guys like Scott Sauer and other CMR/CMIs who otherwise don't really know much about mould.

    Some of the MOULDIEST houses also have some of the LOWEST airborne spore counts. There is a good reason for that. The net result is that it is not appropriate to presume that just because someone has visible mould growing in their home, they must necessarily be breathing higher concentrations of mould spores – it just doesn’t work that way.

    That was in fact, one of the errors which fatally flawed several of the earlier scientific studies on human exposures, wherein the researchers (who should have known better) make the unsupported assumption. The net result was that the assumption, which was false, killed the validity of their studies.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG
    I thank you for that. But as you seem to have missed my point or the whole point I will state again.

    I did not use any technical names for any mold as not a professional I would not. As for all mold should be removed???? Well, YEAH. It does not matter what concentrates one is or is not sucking in. Its the damp mildewy, moldy, stinkin, dirty thing from the moisture that is the root of it and depending on the non technically named mold it is. Why screw around with it. Where ever there is mold in, under, on top of, or inside of your home it needs to go.


    In short. If there is mold it needs to go away. If the mold is the brown or white rot in some crawls or elsewhere it needs to go. If it is some black or green or white or pink, blue or purple mold of any sort in any home, anywhere in the home, it has to go.

    Can't get much more simple than that.

    MOLD = GO If excessive mold throughout the home = Rehab

    If the home is completely saturated with mold, in under, over and thru = demolish, start over.


  14. #79
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    [quote=Ted Menelly;67559] Its the damp mildewy, moldy, stinkin, dirty thing from the moisture that is the root of it quote]

    Pewwwww that stainks!


    Best

    Ron


  15. #80
    Scott Sauer's Avatar
    Scott Sauer Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Did anyone bother to read the disclaimers at the bottom of each of the scientists post?

    Are you kidding me? Those of you who are seriously considering using the narratives the scientists suggest, need to go back to inspection report writing 101. This subject is, so far, outside of your standard of practice which the scientist clearly does not understand. Statements such as "ordinary mold, did not indicate a problem, presence is insignificant and unremarkable" are well outside of your job scope. My guess is your insurance is not going to protect you when you get it wrong. You do not likely have protection for statements you make about environmental issues. Therefore, you will be reviewing your limits of liability statements hidden in the fine pint of your contracts in hopes that it will protect you from the statements you just made. My guess is it's about 50/50, as your job is to take on liability for a fee. This is not a place you want to be so stop the nonsense.

    Come on folks use some common sense. If an electrician said you were not competent to evaluate the electrical system with your limited knowledge would you not be up in arms? It's no different here. As a mold inspector it's not your job to be the scientific specialist. It's your job to do a visual assessment and make recommendations based on your findings. You send the job to an investigator, a remediation contractor or a scientist. Probably not the scientist because nobody in Real Estate wants to pay their outlandish fees.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm busy. I don't have time to sit around all day and answer posts on this thread. It appears as if the scientist doesn't have nearly as many billable hours as I do. Now pardon me, I have to get back to work.

    Respectfully submitted,

    Scott Sauer, CRMI, CMR, CIAQT, MIES, WRT
    Council-Certified Residential Mold Inspector – American Indoor Air Quality Council
    Council-Certified Microbial Remediator - American Indoor Air Quality Council
    Certified Indoor Air Quality Technician – Environmental Solutions Association
    Master Indoor Environmental Specialist - Environmental Solutions Association
    Water Restoration Technician – Institute of Inspection Cleaning and Restoration

    Advanced Structural Inspections, LLC


  16. #81
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    Default Re: Recommendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Sauer View Post
    Did anyone bother to read the disclaimers at the bottom of each of the scientists post?

    Are you kidding me? Those of you who are seriously considering using the narratives the scientists suggest, need to go back to inspection report writing 101. This subject is, so far, outside of your standard of practice which the scientist clearly does not understand. Statements such as "ordinary mold, did not indicate a problem, presence is insignificant and unremarkable" are well outside of your job scope. My guess is your insurance is not going to protect you when you get it wrong. You do not likely have protection for statements you make about environmental issues. Therefore, you will be reviewing your limits of liability statements hidden in the fine pint of your contracts in hopes that it will protect you from the statements you just made. My guess is it's about 50/50, as your job is to take on liability for a fee. This is not a place you want to be so stop the nonsense.

    Come on folks use some common sense. If an electrician said you were not competent to evaluate the electrical system with your limited knowledge would you not be up in arms? It's no different here. As a mold inspector it's not your job to be the scientific specialist. It's your job to do a visual assessment and make recommendations based on your findings. You send the job to an investigator, a remediation contractor or a scientist. Probably not the scientist because nobody in Real Estate wants to pay their outlandish fees.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm busy. I don't have time to sit around all day and answer posts on this thread. It appears as if the scientist doesn't have nearly as many billable hours as I do. Now pardon me, I have to get back to work.

    Respectfully submitted,

    Scott Sauer, CRMI, CMR, CIAQT, MIES, WRT
    Council-Certified Residential Mold Inspector – American Indoor Air Quality Council
    Council-Certified Microbial Remediator - American Indoor Air Quality Council
    Certified Indoor Air Quality Technician – Environmental Solutions Association
    Master Indoor Environmental Specialist - Environmental Solutions Association
    Water Restoration Technician – Institute of Inspection Cleaning and Restoration

    Advanced Structural Inspections, LLC
    .

    I believe your post confirmed what Caoimhín P. Connell stated about you. You certainly did nothing to dispel it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #82
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    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    This is the other Scott or Scott P!

    I'm still a firm believer in this little ditty:

    If you see mold, smell mold then you have mold! No need to test for it! Stop the moisture that is feeding it, read what the EPA has to say about it and if it needs further action do so and go on with life.

    Once the moisture is stopped and the cleaning is done then and only then would I even think about testing and then I'm still skeptical about it.

    This thread will not stop the folks (home inspectors) who are now testing for mold. What it might do is to enlighten those who have grandeur's of making a supplemental income from it. It might also help some homeowners to better understand that folks will take their money for a service that really does little for them.

    I rank mold testing by home inspectors right up with septic tank dye testing! And I would bet that many of those who are doing septic dye testing are also testing for mold! They both accomplish the same thing. They allow the inspector to charge for a service that is basically worthless to their client and provides useless information.

    Caoimhín, would be my choice for any environmental issue or question that I might have. He knows his stuff (even though we have different views on radon) and I would not hesitate to use him as an expert. Most important is that he has the important credentials to support his views and opinions.

    Charter DDMG member

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 01-08-2009 at 12:16 PM. Reason: Spellen
    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  18. #83
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    This is the other Scott or Scott P!

    I'm still a firm believer in this little ditty:

    If you see mold, smell mold then you have mold! No need to test for it! Stop the moisture that is feeding it, read what the EPA has to say about it and if it needs further action do so and go on with life.

    Once the moisture is stopped and the cleaning is done then and only then would I even think about testing and then I'm still skeptical about it.

    This thread will not stop the folks (home inspectors) who are now testing for mold. What it might do is to enlighten those who have grandeur's of making a supplemental income from it. It might also help some homeowners to better understand that folks will take their money for a service that really does little for them.

    I rank mold testing by home inspectors right up with septic tank dye testing! And I would bet that many of those who are doing septic dye testing are also testing for mold! The both accomplish the same thing. They allow the inspector to charge for a service that is basically worthless to their client and provides useless information.
    Now thats a little stinker

    Best

    Ron


  19. #84
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Recommendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    I'm still a firm believer in this little ditty:

    If you see mold, smell mold then you have mold! No need to test for it! Stop the moisture that is feeding it, read what the EPA has to say about it and if it needs further action do so and go on with life.
    Yep. Agree with that.

    I am also a DDMG Charter Member.

    I rank mold testing by home inspectors right up with septic tank dye testing! And I would bet that many of those who are doing septic dye testing are also testing for mold! The both accomplish the same thing. They allow the inspector to charge for a service that is basically worthless to their client and provides useless information.
    Precisely my thoughts too.

    Just one more useless test that they get to steal money from their clients by doing.

    Caoimhín, would be my choice for any environmental issue or question that I might have. He knows his stuff (even though we have different views on radon) and I would not hesitate to use him as an expert. Most important is that he has the important credentials to support his views and opinions.
    Dang, Scott, I'm agreeing with everything you say in that post, this too.

    For those who do not know, DDMG stands for "Don't Do Mold Group", informally formed many years ago on the ASHI board (that's how long ago it was formed, when *I* was participating in the ASHI board ).

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    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  20. #85
    Scott Sauer's Avatar
    Scott Sauer Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell View Post
    Scenario Number 2:
    Here's a little question for you Caoimhín. I saw this inside a crawlspace of a house I inspected this past fall. This is one of multiple ceiling joist bays in the crawlspace that looked like this. What would you tell the buyer and seller about this? What am I supposed to say in my report about this? Any help you can pass along would be appreciated. After all, I don't want my clients to view me as insane.

    Inspection report:
    During my visit, I observed common ordinary mould on the surfaces of the floor decking the crawlspace. The presence of the mould did not indicate a problem, its presence was insignificant and unremarkable. No further action needed.

    Nick -
    It really is that easy.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG




    To write this item up as Caoimhín has suggested, would violate some state laws. I imagine it's well outside of the American Society of Home Inspectors Standard of Practice, which many you rely on to protect you. Using this written narrative will likely fall under the realm of environmental consulting, which you are not likely to be covered for with your basic home inspector insurance coverage. The mere fact that Caoimhín would offer such advice with total disregard to state laws or your SOPs is unprofessional at best and puts you on notice.


    You had better be careful when taking advice from a self-proclaimed expert on a thread meant for home inspectors. Be sure you take time and read his disclaimers at the bottom of his post.


    By the way - I don't remember making any remarks as to when you should or should not be testing, so stop making assumptions about how I conduct my business. You certainly are not in a position to know what my professional opinion is on this subject.

    Nevada State Law:

    NAC 645D.470 Prohibited acts. A certified inspector shall not, while making an inspection:

    8. Determine the presence or absence of any suspected adverse environmental condition or hazardous substance, including, but not limited to, toxins, molds and other fungi, carcinogens, radon, noise or contaminants, unless he is licensed or certified to make such inspections and determinations.


    Respectfully submitted,

    Scott Sauer


  21. #86
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    Default Re: Recommendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Sauer View Post
    I imagine it's well outside of the American Society of Home Inspectors Standard of Practice, which many you rely on to protect you.
    The SoP is used to establish a MINIMUM level of what is to be done, NOT a "good", "better", or "best" level to work at.

    The SoP is similar to a code, it simply establishes THE MINIMUM one MUST DO.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #87
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    Default Re: Recommendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Sauer View Post
    Nevada State Law:

    NAC 645D.470 Prohibited acts. A certified inspector shall not, while making an inspection:

    8. Determine the presence or absence of any suspected adverse environmental condition or hazardous substance, including, but not limited to, toxins, molds and other fungi, carcinogens, radon, noise or contaminants, unless he is licensed or certified to make such inspections and determinations.
    "unless he is licensed or certified to make such inspections and determinations"

    "Certified" or "licensed" by whom? Does the state law state the "by whom" that "certification" or "licensing" is by?

    If not, anyone can "certify" themselves (why one would want to is beyond me, but that would be within the law, unless there is another state law covering that) and thus, once they certify themselves as being certified to do so, they may now, legally with the State of Nevada behind them, do so.

    Isn't that about as silly as obtaining some meaningless 3-hour, 8-hour, 1-day, 3-day, 1-week, etc., course? Of course it is, and it is about as meaningless too.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  23. #88

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Good morning, Gents!

    Mark - I did receive your private message- Thanks!

    Moulds versus Invasive Fungi
    When the common moulds we encounter in indoor environments is growing on a wall or timbers, etc, the filaments of growth are spreading out over the surface of the material in a superficial manner. But the invasion is really just a surface bloom – and the mould cannot reasonably compromise the structural integrity of the timber.

    When a truly invasive fungi, such as Serpula lacrymans (a brown rot) or Phanerochaete chrysosporium (a white rot) invades the wood, the degradation is deep and can quickly compromise the structural integrity of the wooden member.

    Spores in the Air versus Surface Blooms
    It has long been known that there is no correlation between airborne spore counts and the actual amount of growth of mould in a building. This is a myth propagated by “certified mould inspectors” as justification for finding hidden mould (i.e. increase their fees at the expense of the frightened homeowner).

    To begin with, the concentration of spores in the air is very dynamic under virtually all circumstance any way. And since the spore counts are wildly rising and falling inside an house all the time, it is difficult to make any kind of correlation with much of anything (including outdoor spores counts – another myth propagated by guys like Mr. Sauer who follow the IESO guidelines, wherein bogus indoor outdoor comparisons are the norm.)

    Even for houses that are “draft proof” as Mark called it, the normal passive indoor/outdoor infiltration/exfiltration rate is between 3 and 5 air changes per hour. Some of my normal IAQ studies is to calculate what that rate is, and then use it to determine what’s going on in the building regarding other contaminants.

    Some of the largest indoor blooms I have observed are also from houses with quite normal airborne spore counts – This is because as the organism is growing, it is in a mad dash to use its resources to colonize more surface area – thus increase the resources available to it – it is actively combating other organisms for the same turf. As such, it doesn’t want to waste its resources in reproductive activities, and so the mould is not actively producing spores. Since the organisms are not producing those spores, there are no undue sources for spores and the airborne spore counts remain normal in the presence of an ever increasing visible vegetative mass.

    As conditions change, and the fungus is threatened or stressed, then it can change gears and start producing mould spores.

    Similarly, it has to be noted that high counts of airborne mould spores does not necessarily mean there are “hidden sources” of moulds. In one case, a “mould inspector” contacted me for help. He had been hired to do a mould assessment at a small airport – so naturally being a certified mould inspector, he did what only untrained mould inspectors do – he started to collect a lot of samples. His air samples were very high, and included unusually large concentrations of Stachybotrys atra (the boogey-man for the CMI/CMR and other poorly trained inspectors). I don’t recal the actual numbers, but the indoor counts were on the order of 10,000 s/m3 and the Stachy in the profile was on the order of 700 to 1,000 s/m3. But he was in a tizzy cuz he couldn’t find the mould!

    So I showed up on site, and within three seconds of entering the building, I found the mould. Stacked in the main hallway were standard sheets of drywall. I asked our mould inspector if the sheets of drywall had been loaded into the building or otherwise handled on the day he had performed his sampling – “Yes” he tells me. Mystery solved.

    The surface of normal regular every day drywall is LOADED with mould spores, especially Stachybotrys atra. If people are handling drywall, the airborne spore concentrations can be through the roof!

    Finally, on this subject, Mark’s question is really valid:

    Or is it that there is no way of positively testing the spore count. And then we don't know if there is a increase in spore count numbers or not.

    You are correct – there is NO WAY of positively testing the spore count, and NONE of the CRMI/CMI/CMR/CIAQ (alphabet whatevers) guys running around willy-nilly “testing” the air actually know what the spore count is. It is for this reason that samples should only be collected pursuant to a priori data quality objectives, and the results interpreted exclusively within the context of those DQOs.

    So if we start to remove the Sheetrock then do we need to protection like a dust mask? other the just for dust but not for mould spores. At what point will we need to suit up and do the has-mat thing for mould removal?

    Answer: See my post above (post #41). However, consider this, there are scores and scores of jobs out there that incur massively higher levels of human exposures to moulds than mould remediation, and yet, none of those employees or employers give a second thought about respiratory protection. Perfect example, yesterday I was assessing two different properties for methamphetamine contamination. In one of those properties, when I arrived, there was a furnace inspector down in the crawlspace. The crawler was littered with old newspapers which over the last 40 years had gone through various wet and dry cycles. I couldn’t help but consider his normal microflora exposures would be on the order of MILLIONS of spores per cubic meter. Naturally, and appropriately, his primary health concerns involved confined spaces, bumping his head and CO.

    Other occupations and preoccupations wherein one can expect extremely high airborne spore exposures, probably higher than mould remediation employees) but would never consider using respirators include: Lifeguards at the beach, farmers, ranchers, sailors, gardeners, greenhouse employees, virtually all occupations and humans at latitudes between 30°N and 30°S, and the list goes on.

    Removing All Mould
    Of course not. For a start, it’s impossible. Removal of any mould should be commensurate with the circumstances of its presence. Anybody who tells a client they should always remove visible mould is doing their client a disservice.

    Another story: I was involved in a construction defect case involving 76 newly constructed houses. Each of the houses had mould (Duh!). And the mould inspector scared the willies out of the new owners by what … by collecting samples and spinning yarns about “toxic moulds” … especially in the crawlspaces.

    He advised the homeowners to remediate the mould in their crawlspaces. Only one homeowner took his stupid advise and spent $36,000 “remediating” the mould in her crawler. She brought in the moon suits with HEPA filters, and decon showers, and critical barriers and the whole nine yards. It was hysterically funny, I was down there while these guys were sanding the floor joists. At the end of the project, the genius mould inspector collected more air samples – guess what? The counts were higher than before. So he collected more samples; higher again. So he collected even more samples, even higher still. Since the mould inspector, like other certified mould inspectors, didn’t actually know much about mould he was at a loss to explain the situation to a, now very angry, homeowner.

    Of course in the end, she had the cleanest crawler in the state, but it still contained billions of mould spores like every other crawlspace in the state. NOTHING was achaived by "remediating" the mould in her crawler. So, I respectfully disagree with Ted, with the notion that presence of mould automatically means you have to try and remove it. Instead, any removal should be for a specific articulable reason, (such as the four categories I mentioned above).

    Finally – Mr. Sauer, I visited your web site where I see the following:

    The bronchial tubes lead directly into the lungs where they divide into many smaller tubes that connect to tiny sacs called alveoli. Alveoli are the most sensitive part of the lung. The average adult’s lungs contain about 600 million of these spongy, air-filled sacs that are surrounded by capillaries. Mold spores can be small enough to enter these sacs. They are recognized as a foreign material and are attacked. As the spores are destroyed, the mycotoxins contained within them are then released causing an allergic response.

    Very funny – and very wrong.

    Mr. Sauer also presents one of his reports on his site which contains a section on mould that is rife with bad information. For example, it states that mildews are “benign” (something that will come as a shocking surprise to millions of farmers and plant pathologists). Mr. Sauer also makes it clear in his report that he is NOT an expert in mould related issues! Huh?

    Mr. Sauer’s statements indicate that he doesn't know much about mould, mycotoxins, or physiology. I suppose this is some of the bogus misinformation he received as part of his training. Also, his discussions are full of contradictions in that on the one hand he dislikes the involvement of Industrial Hygienists (because we expose him for what he is), and yet he references the US EPA and the CDC which advises the American Public to consult with Industrial Hygienists (not WRT/CMRI/CMI/ACB/DRTs/NMO/PQR/XYZz).

    Folks, as Professional Home Inspectors, you are not only adequately qualified to consult on indoor mould related issues without the CMI/CRM whatever designations, you are in fact BETTER QULIFIED than these guys, because you haven’t been spoon-fed a lot of misinformation, bad information, and technically incorrect information like they have.

    Anyone of you who have read and understood my many posts on mould related issues have received more and better training in indoor moulds than CMI/CRMIs or whatever. Accordingly, if any one of you wants to contact me, I will happily hand out for FREE, certifications certifying you as “Certified Mould Inspectors” and then you too, can compete on equal footing with misinformed mould inspectors like Scott Sauer.

    Scott is just upset, since he apparently spent a lot of money on certificates that are not only useless and meaningless, but actually represent that he has received poor training that includes misinformation. His own posts here and his own website demonstrate that nicely.

    If anyone has a mould report by a CMI/CRMI or whatever that actually is technically competent, send it to me, and I will happily review it.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell, NBI
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG


  24. #89
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Caoimhín. that was the best L.O.L. I a ling time...

    Yes please may i have one of your “Certified Mould Inspectors” Certs.

    Please post it in your reply to this board.

    Please put my correct name on it ( Daffy Duck )

    Thanks

    Best

    Ron


  25. #90

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Here you go, Brother!

    Here is your official “Certified Mould Inspector” certificate, Ron!

    http://forensic-applications.com/mou...ecognition.pdf

    It is sad to say, but this certificate actually legally allows you to call yourself as such, and promote yourself as such in all but two State (to my knowledge).

    You now have exactly what other certified mould inspectors have – a certificate. Sort of like what the Wizard did to The Lion and Tinman in Oz.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG


  26. #91
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell View Post
    Here you go, Brother!

    Here is your official “Certified Mould Inspector” certificate, Ron!

    http://forensic-applications.com/mou...ecognition.pdf

    It is sad to say, but this certificate actually legally allows you to call yourself as such, and promote yourself as such in all but two State (to my knowledge).

    You now have exactly what other certified mould inspectors have – a certificate. Sort of like what the Wizard did to The Lion and Tin man in Oz.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG
    That is so Cool... L.O.L. My wife will be home soon and I'm going to show her certificate. That will should be good for a nice dinner...

    Thanks

    L.O.L

    Ron


  27. #92
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    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    The mold & bug business is going to the dogs! This just popped up and is right down the road from me. Mold & Bed Bugs Control Tennessee

    Enjoy!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  28. #93
    Ed Reynolds's Avatar
    Ed Reynolds Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Thanks for a very eye-opening discussion on one of the least understood or most misunderstood topics plaguing homeowners today.

    Mr. Connell knows his stuff very well!

    And then to hear that the world is going to the dogs, literally, at least in Tennessee!

    Just when you thought you heard of everything...mold (mould)-sniffing dogs?

    Good grief Charlie Brown!

    Reminds of an an old saying by P.T. Barnum...There's a sucker bron every minute. How true. How sad.

    Thanks for the lively discussion!


  29. #94
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    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Hi Ed,

    Unfortunately its not only mould that is hyped, its also abestos, IR scans, Radon, Energy audits,.... you name it you can be sure you know who will package it as the latest health issue, market it as need, certify the inspectors with a simple online course, and promote the information and dissemination of information to suite the marketing plan.

    Cheers,


  30. #95

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Was it one of her dogs that passed the Nachi test?


  31. #96
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Recomendation for Mold, Radon

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    The mold & bug business is going to the dogs! This just popped up and is right down the road from me. Mold & Bed Bugs Control Tennessee

    Enjoy!
    Do you think they can find Flees
    Best

    Ron


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