Thread: Insurance

I have been doing H.I. for a while now. I carry a general liability policy for my S.C. applicators license to do my CL-100 inspections. Due to the expensive cost I did not add any coverage for the H.I. portion of my business.
I am doing an inspection for new construction next week and they called wanting a copy of my E&O insurance. I looked into the cost for a newbie and it is outrageous.
I am sending my general liability for my W.D.O. coverage but thats all they are going to get.
What types of coverage does everyone else have?

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That General Liability policy is not going to get you anywhere if they are wanting a E&O policy.

You definately don't want to do that inspection either trying to hide behind just a GL policy.

Yeah E&O is expensive, but losing your arse in a lawsuit is even more expensive. You gotta pay if you want to play in this business.

rick

Rick, Who do you recommend? Or should I search a local provider? What is the difference between E&o and general liability.

Simple explanation is:
E&O is like malpractice insurance for service providers that may cause financial loss.

GL covers damages you may cause to a home while performing your inspection.

Try these folks. I do not know if they are carriers in your state but I know they are reasonable. Give em a try

http://www.liberty-union.com/
http://www.liabilitypro.com/

If you never have had E&O Allen Ins. has a great program for your first year. Pay per inspection. I just went through the fun process of researching insurance as my renewal was coming up. I switched and went with First Indemnity. They beat every other quote i received and great coverage. I am in my third year so still considered a newbie, so newbies pay a little more. For info from first Indemnity contact John Remark @ jremark@firstindemnity.net Good luck. I could not imagine inspecting with out E&O

Insurance issue aside, I would be very careful dealing with someone that wanted a copy of my insurance before I did an inspection. I would pass on the inspection myself.

I have had E&O long before it was required by licensing. Like Rick said, the cost of insurance is nothing compared to trying to pay for losing a lawsuit.

This may sound harsh, but if you can't afford insurance, you probably shouldn't be in business.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

Insurance issue aside, I would be very careful dealing with someone that wanted a copy of my insurance before I did an inspection. I would pass on the inspection myself.

I have had E&O long before it was required by licensing. Like Rick said, the cost of insurance is nothing compared to trying to pay for losing a lawsuit.

This may sound harsh, but if you can't afford insurance, you probably shouldn't be in business.

Thanks Jack

I should have added that

When someone asks me for my E&O number I back away rather quickly. They are going to have to fight me on that one a little. Someone turn in a claim and you don't hear from anyone until your insurance company is already involved and they contact you.

I will have someone call for a home purchase looking for an inspection and they ask for your E&O insurance. I tell them they need to call someone else like Rick or Aaron or Jim to name a few. I know they would like to deal with those folks

I have been on the computer all day asking for quotes. Hopefully I will have something by Monday afternoon.
The average price for a GL and EO policy for minimum coverage is about $1500.00. I will up the coverage if the calls keep coming. My prices are already $75.00 higher than the competition. I have been educating the agents and they are willing to pay the difference after seeing one of my inspections compared to the 1 hour on site report they have been used to.
I am up from 2 inspections a week to averaging about 4 a week now. So it does not seem prudent to do the pay per inspection route. I love the HI business and it does seem like I need the EO per everyones recommendation.

Originally Posted by Brad Borden

I have been doing H.I. for a while now. I carry a general liability policy for my S.C. applicators license to do my CL-100 inspections. Due to the expensive cost I did not add any coverage for the H.I. portion of my business.
I am doing an inspection for new construction next week and they called wanting a copy of my E&O insurance. I looked into the cost for a newbie and it is outrageous.
I am sending my general liability for my W.D.O. coverage but thats all they are going to get.
What types of coverage does everyone else have?

BB: Who exactly is requiring this insurance? Your client? That would never be a client of mine. The only reason, AND I MEAN THE ONLY REASON, I carry E&O insurance is because it is required by my licensing agency. It is not beneficial to an HI under any circumstances. Period.

Anyone who tells you otherwise simply does not know what they are talking about.

Trey Kinder with Liberty-Union is great to work wiht. Good rates

Originally Posted by Brad Borden

... I am doing an inspection for new construction next week and they called wanting a copy of my E&O insurance. ...

Brad,

Just "who" is asking for the E&O certificate? The builder or your client who is buying the home being built?

Regardless ... clarify that question as it "may" be that the person asking the question does not know what they are asking. They may not know the difference between GL and E&O.

I would NEVER give my E&O information to any client. That is for my business and that is the end of that conversation.

As for GL ... that is a different matter. When doing some new home final or even phase inspections for a buyer the builder of the property may require a copy of an assignment of your GL insurance. That is a common practice in the construction world and is not a big deal. It amounts to relieving the builder of any accidents or potential damage that may occur during your time of inspection. This will vary depending upon the builder and their corporate requirements. When I was inspecting the Houston market many years ago I was one of a very few HIs who carried GL and was allowed on the builder's sites to inspect for clients.

GL coverage (all things considered) is inexpensive. On the other hand E&O is bloody expensive ... depending upon your length of time inspecting, etc., etc..

My GL and E&O are not by the same carrier. They could be, but I have a great GL policy that I've had for many years and I'm grandfathered in on a plan that they no longer offer. In other words - I'm not going to mess with what is working on that one anyway.

That is what I was trying to explain to the agent. The builder only needs to know I have GL. That is all that is required is SC. Now the agent and my client (purchaser) is saying they want my EO insurance. Which according all the above post say I need.
I would think thats what GL would take care of seems like double coverage.

Originally Posted by Brad Borden

That is what I was trying to explain to the agent. The builder only needs to know I have GL. That is all that is required is SC. Now the agent and my client (purchaser) is saying they want my EO insurance. Which according all the above post say I need.
I would think thats what GL would take care of seems like double coverage.

Brad: Explain it to the client like this: Professional Liability (E&O) Insurance does not benefit you, the client, in the least. It is intended to provide me with an attorney free of charge should you decide to sue me. You, on the other hand, will still be required to provide you own attorney at your expense. My Professional Liability Insurance policy resides in the realm of my confidential business documentation, much like my tax return, which does not concern you, and I will not reveal it to you.

As for you, Brad, consider this: if you have E&O insurance you attract lawsuits. Period. Don't believe me? Ask any attorney. Additionally, once you are sued, and your insurance comes into play, you will either see a significant spike in your premiums or they will simply non-renew (cancel) your policy. In the event of the latter, you will become uninsurable at any price.

This then leaves you in a quandary. If you receive a demand letter, do you really want to roll those particular dice by turning in the claim? If not, then you are left to either settle with the prospective litigant or hire an attorney to cover your ass. So then, in effect you are paying to protect you E&O insurance policy.

And you are considering purchasing one of these policies by choice? What the hell are you thinking?

I have always thought of EO insurance is for Real Estate agents and appraisers. I agree with you a GL policy in its definition is there to cover me if I screw up.
So I agree double coverage.
Lets take a poll how many HI have EO insurance because it is required?
How many would not get if it was not required?

Originally Posted by Brad Borden

I have always thought of EO insurance is for Real Estate agents and appraisers. I agree with you a GL policy in its definition is there to cover me if I screw up.
So I agree double coverage.
Lets take a poll how many HI have EO insurance because it is required?
How many would not get if it was not required?

Brad: Take your poll. You still won't have much when the results are in. If you have an attorney, ask him/her. If you do not have an attorney, why not?

Brad, you'll get some detractors in regard to E&O insurance. The long and short of it is that it can save your butt if you screw up big time and have a settlement in the thousands of dollars levied against you. It's your decision to make. Here in Pennsylvania, we have to carry both E&O and GL it as a provision of our HI law so I don't have a choice. I don't like paying the premiums but the peace of mind it provides helps me sleep better at night.

If a client wants to see a copy of my policy, they won't be a client of mine. Builders can pretty much call the shots if they are going to let you in to inspect one of their houses. In some cases, I think the builders purposely place high levels of criteria on inspectors to make it difficult for them to come in and perform inspections. They may just be looking for fewer headaches so they can complete the house and the sale.

GL (general liability) only covers you if you physically damage or break something (ie - your ladder falls on somebody's car, you slip in the attic and go through somebody's ceiling, etc.). E&O (error and omissions) however covers you in the event you fail to report a condition that falls within the scope of the inspection (ie - a roof that needs replacement, a cracked and failing foundation wall, etc.).

Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski

Brad, you'll get some detractors in regard to E&O insurance. The long and short of it is that it can save your butt if you screw up big time and have a settlement in the thousands of dollars levied against you. It's your decision to make. Here in Pennsylvania, we have to carry both E&O and GL it as a provision of our HI law so I don't have a choice. I don't like paying the premiums but the peace of mind it provides helps me sleep better at night.

If a client wants to see a copy of my policy, they won't be a client of mine. Builders can pretty much call the shots if they are going to let you in to inspect one of their houses. In some cases, I think the builders purposely place high levels of criteria on inspectors to make it difficult for them to come in and perform inspections. They may just be looking for fewer headaches so they can complete the house and the sale.

GL (general liability) only covers you if you physically damage or break something (ie - your ladder falls on somebody's car, you slip in the attic and go through somebody's ceiling, etc.). E&O (error and omissions) however covers you in the event you fail to report a condition that falls within the scope of the inspection (ie - a roof that needs replacement, a cracked and failing foundation wall, etc.).

I assume that this is Nick, Esq. writing this?

Yep, that's about what I expected.

Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski

Yep, that's about what I expected.

Nick: My point is that, when it comes to something as important as legal protection, why recommend to someone to spend that rather large sum of money that an E&O policy represents without first consulting with their attorney?

Poll response: E&O not required in Ky. I do not carry it. Inspections since 1998 and no one has ever required it. Some have asked if I have it and I am honest to say "no".

Originally Posted by Brad Borden

I have always thought of EO insurance is for Real Estate agents and appraisers. I agree with you a GL policy in its definition is there to cover me if I screw up.
So I agree double coverage.
Lets take a poll how many HI have EO insurance because it is required?
How many would not get if it was not required?

Brad,

By your post above it does not seem to me that you understand the difference between E&O and GL. They are NOT the same thing. E&O has been well explained in this string.

GL is an "accident" policy if you fall through the roof, fall through the attic, break a client's Ming Vase, etc.. It is NOT double coverage if you happen to have E&O.

That is what the builder's typically want (if they speak up and ask for such). They want you to be responsible for breaking their garage door or kitchen cabinet or melt the oven when you forget to turn it off after testing ... (Oops .. only required to do that in Texas )

Now, if you all of a sudden have a RE Agent and client (buyer of home) asking you for your E&O policy confirmation, number, etc., etc., ... NOPE, NO WAY. You can professionaly tell them that you either "have" or "don't have" such coverage and that is the end of that. (I think I said that elsewhere in this string).

E&O is not limited to agents and appraisers and whatever. It can be utilized and/or required in many professional jobs.

There are many views/opinions one side or another on this particular topic and a poll on + or - of using E&O is a mute point. Some state's require it and some don't ... beyond that it is a personal business decision for each inspector or company.

E&O is not required for licensure here in NY, only GL.
E&O is a personal decision by the HI practitioner.
E&O does nothing to protect the consumer it protects the HI's ass(ets).
It is very expensive for newbies here in NY.

NEVER give out your E&O policy #s!
Pass on the inspection if asked.

I have used a GL policy for over 16 years in the Pest business. When there has ever been a claim either with a WDO inspection or one of pest Techs failed to find something on an annual renewal inspection and then next year some damages were found, our GL policy has always been there to either defend us when we were in the right or pay when we were wrong.

Part of the problem with understanding, what insurance covers what, is the terminology being used here.
In the insurance industry, to my knowledge there is no such term as E&O or Errors and Omissions insurance. It is referred to as Professional Liability.
It's function is to protect against the professionals errors and omissions, but that is not what the coverage is called, and understanding the difference is very important.

Oddly enough my dad (Rick Hurst) was using my laptop and it died on this page.

As an insurance agent, feel free to post any insurance related questions and hopefully I can clear the air and confusion. It's a tricky product to buy and even a trickier product to understand. Coincidently, one of the links above (Liberty Union) is a sub-agent (writes through) of our company.

E&O is classified as a type of Professional Liability liability insurance... it does the same thing as Malpractice for an attorney or a doctor or D&O for officers of a corporation or organization (TAREI would carry D&O).

Think of GL as covering your exposures as you practice your trade (during the inspection) and your E&O as covering your finished product or in insurance terms "completed operations." General Liability is a 3rd party coverage that covers damages only to others (your client) while any professional liability covers the 1st party (you).

We (our agency) have to buy E&O insurance (as do realtors) in case we make in error in writing or changing a policy/give bad advice or omit something completely out.

I'm not sure how flexible the programs are out there for Home Inspectors but look at the industry and more importantly look at your own loss history to figure out what's a good deductible to bear considering how often you will end up filling a claim. If you rarely have claims, set it high to get a lower premium. Also check that your limits comply with both the state and the scope of work you perform. Are you working on 100k houses daily or 1 million dollar houses daily? A million dollar loss because of your completed operation would wipe out your insurance for the entire year if you have a 1 million dollar occurance / 1 million dollar aggregate policy... unless you have an umbrella... but that's another story!

Sorry for the wordy post guys!

E & O Insurance required in the Great Comm. of Massachusetts since 5/1/01. No insurance---no license---no work.

Originally Posted by Leif Hurst

Oddly enough my dad (Rick Hurst) was using my laptop and it died on this page.

As an insurance agent, feel free to post any insurance related questions and hopefully I can clear the air and confusion. It's a tricky product to buy and even a trickier product to understand. Coincidently, one of the links above (Liberty Union) is a sub-agent (writes through) of our company.

E&O is classified as a type of Professional Liability liability insurance... it does the same thing as Malpractice for an attorney or a doctor or D&O for officers of a corporation or organization (TAREI would carry D&O).

Think of GL as covering your exposures as you practice your trade (during the inspection) and your E&O as covering your finished product or in insurance terms "completed operations." General Liability is a 3rd party coverage that covers damages only to others (your client) while any professional liability covers the 1st party (you).

We (our agency) have to buy E&O insurance (as do realtors) in case we make in error in writing or changing a policy/give bad advice or omit something completely out.

I'm not sure how flexible the programs are out there for Home Inspectors but look at the industry and more importantly look at your own loss history to figure out what's a good deductible to bear considering how often you will end up filling a claim. If you rarely have claims, set it high to get a lower premium. Also check that your limits comply with both the state and the scope of work you perform. Are you working on 100k houses daily or 1 million dollar houses daily? A million dollar loss because of your completed operation would wipe out your insurance for the entire year if you have a 1 million dollar occurance / 1 million dollar aggregate policy... unless you have an umbrella... but that's another story!

Sorry for the wordy post guys!

Not the famous Rick Hurst from Rockwall, TX

Yeah, thats my son.

rick

The other day one of those winterizer companies for foreclosures called and asked if I was interested. I went through the general chit-chat and then she asked how much E&O insurance I carry.

She said her company required $1 million. I said that I didn't have that much and unless they were willing to increase the amount they were to pay me per inspection, then forget it.

It just now dawned on me...I now wonder if she really meant GL. For the life of me, I couldn't figure why she wanted a $1 mil on E&O.

doh!

To have a million is one thing. To request that you have a million dollars.....yes......a million dollars in E&O is outrageous.

The water heater you may not call out perfectly or the fogged window or a couple outlets behind furniture that you could not get to should be worth a cool mil.......What a joke. Forgot about the 2 shingles on the roof that you could not get to due to the 12 12 cannot climb on it situation must be a half mil appeace

Rick

Does he look like Toni S as well.

Originally Posted by JB Thompson

The other day one of those winterizer companies for foreclosures called and asked if I was interested. I went through the general chit-chat and then she asked how much E&O insurance I carry.

She said her company required $1 million. I said that I didn't have that much and unless they were willing to increase the amount they were to pay me per inspection, then forget it.

It just now dawned on me...I now wonder if she really meant GL. For the life of me, I couldn't figure why she wanted a $1 mil on E&O.

doh!

JB: That was general liability they were requiring. As far as I know, no banks, mortgage companies, et al., carry insurance on forclosures. They want you to cover their ass while you are at the house turning the water and gas on and off. That is one of the reasons why I have never considered the winterizer business. The other, and most important, reason is that it just does not pay.

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

Yeah, thats my son.

rick

Rick: I, as you certainly have by now deduced, am not what one would usually consider the sympathetic type. Now however, being faced with the truth that your son grew up to be an insurance man, I do feel a bit of sympathy for you. I really hate to admit it, but there it is.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

To have a million is one thing. To request that you have a million dollars.....yes......a million dollars in E&O is outrageous.

The water heater you may not call out perfectly or the fogged window or a couple outlets behind furniture that you could not get to should be worth a cool mil.......What a joke. Forgot about the 2 shingles on the roof that you could not get to due to the 12 12 cannot climb on it situation must be a half mil appeace

Rick

Does he look like Toni S as well.

True, but the stuck T&P valve on a water heater you missed that rockets the tank through the roof and kills 2 people... a million doesn't begin to cover it.

The pendulum swings both ways. My example maybe extreme but is very plausible. I live in a world of really bad claims and we see some of the craziest stuff happen all the time (we're on most of the cranes that collpase in the US).

Some would say, "that will never happen to me" but that's the point of insurance, you're buying something you hope you never have to use (trust me, I hope you don't have to use it either) but it's there in case the crap really hits the fan.

The small stuff is what occurs the most... the shingles you missed, or the stove you said was running but really forgot to check it. That's what you set your deductibles for. Anything below the deductible, you pay out of pocket (and hopefully learn along the way) and then use insurance for the catastrophic of things that will bankrupt you. On a long enough time line, everyone will have to fill a claim.

No one chooses to be in insurance... we all got duped into it somehow. I'm definitely not the "slick willy" golf playing agent. LOL I'm on the management team so I deal mostly with staff and IT issues but I do sell about 20-30% of the time and have a small group of select clients to help buy diapers for the kiddo.

Fortunately, I took after my mom.

Some would say, "that will never happen to me" but that's the point of insurance, you're buying something you hope you never have to use (trust me, I hope you don't have to use it either) but it's there in case the crap really hits the fan.

Lief: And some psycholgist would support the argument that buying insurance you hope you will never use leads to the subconscious desire to use it in order to get value for the money spent, and the subsequent actions which realize those desires.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

Lief: And some psycholgist would support the argument that buying insurance you hope you will never use leads to the subconscious desire to use it in order to get value for the money spent, and the subsequent actions which realize those desires.

People, like electricity, will always resort to the path of least resistance.

We always joke that we sell a product you don't want to buy from a company that doesn't want to sell it hoping you'll never have to use it.

There are some real scum bags out there that have turned us into lawyers but to be honest, there is nothing more warming then saving someone's business or bringing someone a huge claim check that allows them to get back to the way things were.

There are some real scum bags out there that have turned us into lawyers but to be honest

Lief: That sounds quite a bit like the businees I am in.

Originally Posted by Leif Hurst

We always joke that we sell a product you don't want to buy from a company that doesn't want to sell it hoping you'll never have to use it.

Like "Life Insurance" should be called "Death Payment" - everyone KNOWS they will die, thus you are not "insuring" your "life", you are only setting the "payment" to be made upon your "death".

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Like "Life Insurance" should be called "Death Payment" - everyone KNOWS they will die, thus you are not "insuring" your "life", you are only setting the "payment" to be made upon your "death".

JP: Agreed

Originally Posted by Leif Hurst

True, but the stuck T&P valve on a water heater you missed that rockets the tank through the roof and kills 2 people... a million doesn't begin to cover it.

The pendulum swings both ways. My example maybe extreme but is very plausible. I live in a world of really bad claims and we see some of the craziest stuff happen all the time (we're on most of the cranes that collapse in the US).

Some would say, "that will never happen to me" but that's the point of insurance, you're buying something you hope you never have to use (trust me, I hope you don't have to use it either) but it's there in case the crap really hits the fan.

The small stuff is what occurs the most... the shingles you missed, or the stove you said was running but really forgot to check it. That's what you set your deductibles for. Anything below the deductible, you pay out of pocket (and hopefully learn along the way) and then use insurance for the catastrophic of things that will bankrupt you. On a long enough time line, everyone will have to fill a claim.

No one chooses to be in insurance... we all got duped into it somehow. I'm definitely not the "slick willy" golf playing agent. LOL I'm on the management team so I deal mostly with staff and IT issues but I do sell about 20-30% of the time and have a small group of select clients to help buy diapers for the kiddo.

Fortunately, I took after my mom.

37 years of working (self employed business owner) week after week after month after year and I have never filed a claim or been sued or have had a claim against me. I have had idiots threaten me with idiotic things over the years but nothing real.

I truly believe that 90% of law suits come from folks presenting themselves in a particular manner. I believe the relationship that you have with clients on actions they might think of takjing is based on how one approaches the relationship with there clients to begin with.

Come off wrong, hide behind silly useless contracts, hind behind stupid disclaimers like I cannot inspect the plumbing behind walls or under concrete floors. Keep hiding behind and touting that they are protected by untold amounts of insurance and they believe that they are not coming after you but that insurance paycheck when there was nothing to come after you for to begin with.

I am not knocking insurance agents in the slightest, everyone needs a job to slither around on just kidding. Seriously, it is the mind set one puts off to the client. Every single client I meet I explain the stupid things people try to come after me for (why not, it is better than them paying for it) and further explain to them that this inspection ends the moment I lock that front door up behind me as I leave. I am there to REDUCE their risks, not totaly eliminate them. When I leave they are assured that I have looked at every item in their home and this is how it was when I looked at it, period. They can never say I did not inspect something in their new home or if it were or were not working or if it were or were not in need of repair or service etc etc.

Anyways, glad you took after your mom

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

37 years of working (self employed business owner) week after week after month after year and I have never filed a claim or been sued or have had a claim against me. I have had idiots threaten me with idiotic things over the years but nothing real.

I truly believe that 90% of law suits come from folks presenting themselves in a particular manner. I believe the relationship that you have with clients on actions they might think of takjing is based on how one approaches the relationship with there clients to begin with.

Come off wrong, hide behind silly useless contracts, hind behind stupid disclaimers like I cannot inspect the plumbing behind walls or under concrete floors. Keep hiding behind and touting that they are protected by untold amounts of insurance and they believe that they are not coming after you but that insurance paycheck when there was nothing to come after you for to begin with.

I am not knocking insurance agents in the slightest, everyone needs a job to slither around on just kidding. Seriously, it is the mind set one puts off to the client. Every single client I meet I explain the stupid things people try to come after me for (why not, it is better than them paying for it) and further explain to them that this inspection ends the moment I lock that front door up behind me as I leave. I am there to REDUCE their risks, not totaly eliminate them. When I leave they are assured that I have looked at every item in their home and this is how it was when I looked at it, period. They can never say I did not inspect something in their new home or if it were or were not working or if it were or were not in need of repair or service etc etc.

Anyways, glad you took after your mom

Great post and I agree a 100%.

All of this points back to a faulted legal system where you can sue anyone for anything and they're responsible to prove their innocense (on their dime albeit). I've seen lawsuits for someone looking at someone wrong... I'm not kidding. In a world where Hot Coffee needs a warning label that reads "Hot Coffee" to keep from getting sued, we're all liable and open to lawsuit. People see you own a business and they see an endless supply of money so they're "going to get theres."

Originally Posted by Leif Hurst

Great post and I agree a 100%.

All of this points back to a faulted legal system where you can sue anyone for anything and they're responsible to prove their innocense (on their dime albeit). I've seen lawsuits for someone looking at someone wrong... I'm not kidding. In a world where Hot Coffee needs a warning label that reads "Hot Coffee" to keep from getting sued, we're all liable and open to lawsuit. People see you own a business and they see an endless supply of money so they're "going to get theres."

Lief: Here's a real life example that is still in play. I received my general liability renewal bill today for my termite inspections. It was about $800 for a 200/300 that satisfies the TDA SPCS requirements. The renewal quote was $1200. I call them and they explained that the TDA now requires termite inspection E&O for TDA licensees. I called TDA and they, of course, said that this was BS, no such requirement. I called the agent back and they said they had to write it this way, even though it is not required. I called several other companies and got multiple different stories and quotes.

Do you folks have to graduate from meteorological school, or is it the other way around?

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

Lief: Here's a real life example that is still in play. I received my general liability renewal bill today for my termite inspections. It was about $800 for a 200/300 that satisfies the TDA SPCS requirements. The renewal quote was $1200. I call them and they explained that the TDA now requires termite inspection E&O for TDA licensees. I called TDA and they, of course, said that this was BS, no such requirement. I called the agent back and they said they had to write it this way, even though it is not required. I called several other companies and got multiple different stories and quotes.

Do you folks have to graduate from meteorological school, or is it the other way around?

Unfortunately some people just push papers and don't actually think things through.