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  1. #1
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    Default Health Care Reform

    Some interesting points on the new "health Care" bill. I would love to hear any comments. YouTube - Congressman Mike Rogers' opening statement on Health Care reform in Washington D.C.

    A.D please don't post if you have nothing to back your claims. Another words, I mean keep a civil tongue unless you have anything but your own thoughts!!!!!

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    Some interesting points on the new "health Care" bill. I would love to hear any comments. YouTube - Congressman Mike Rogers' opening statement on Health Care reform in Washington D.C.

    A.D please don't post if you have nothing to back your claims. Another words, I mean keep a civil tongue unless you have anything but your own thoughts!!!!!
    Its funny that the folks that are already getting insurance from their employers are actually getting it paid for by the rest of the americans through the amount charged for their goods and services with the health insurance cost factored in.

    Does anyone find it comical that all those folks already getting their medical insurance paid for by the rest of the US citizens and other folks around the world does not want anything to do with paying for anyone elses medical coverage for any reason what so ever. The terminology is always "these folks work so hard for their employers that they get rewarded by their employers by paying for their medical coverage".

    Not. Everyone that buys the goods or services is paying for it. Like you and me.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Not my writting, but there are some very interesting points.

    With all the hullaballoo about Socialism these days — and the suggestion that if the government nationalizes a bank, we have leapt out onto the slippery slope of Socialism and it’s ultimate destination Communism — I can’t help but bring up a little nuance in the argument. Namely, that Banks are Socialism…
    That’s right; banks are inherently socialist operations by nature. So are Insurance companies. By definition, Socialism is NOT communism; it is not a system where everything is owned by the state or communal. It is simply a system that recognizes that the greater good cannot be served purely through the selfishness of the free market and individualism. It accepts that certain aspects of life and business in a civilization, i.e. a group of people trying to live together, are better handled communally, serving the interests of the whole, while others are best left to the individual.
    So how are banks and insurance companies socialist? Both industries pool the resources of the many to reduce the risk or cost to the individual. That is Socialism — pooling the resources of the whole to average out the risk of the individual. And ultimately, when the losses becomes too large for either of these industries, it is always the government who has to ultimately back them, or bail them out, as in a major disaster or market crash. So why even bother to have these industries private? Why not nationalize them, since it’s the government that always seems to have to cut the last check? Why pay an insurance company 20-30% in profit for doing NOTHING but pooling our money and then figuring out ways to deny us coverage to increase their profit? Why pay banks huge profits to pool OUR money, then literally create and loan 9 times more of OUR money than they have in assets back to us with interest? These industries are really just Socialism bundled up in a free market wrapper, a wrapper that cost 20-30% more on average.
    So what really do we lose in socializing these industries? The Republican mantra that the government can do nothing efficiently, always seems to be then supported by examples of services the government provides that do NOT do fit the socialist model. Postal services, road repair, etc…, etc…, much of what Government does for us really is better suited for the private sector, and competition. But our military runs like a well oiled machine. Why? Because no expense is spared as it is not subject to free-market profit pressures. Insurance on the other hand, is a perfect fit for nationalization, for it provides no real value outside of the pooling of wealth, something the government does best because it has the most money, and in the worst case, can create it. A perfect example is Medicare. Medicare costs 8% to operate. That includes everything. Most insurance companies have similar if not higher expenses and then charge 20+% profits on top. And they provide no real value, except to pool OUR money or risk.
    I recently read a quote that said, “Insurance companies suggest that a Government health plan operated at cost would make it “impossible for Insurance companies to compete” Haven’t we been told by all the free-market fundamentalists that competition brings costs down? SO now we have the Insurance industry claiming they can’t compete with a non-profit Government program.. And they are right, but the reason they differ from many other types of industries is they PROVIDE NO VALUE FOR THEIR PROFIT.. Profit incentive CAN make companies more competitive, when there is the opportunity for invention, innovation, or technological discovery. But the only thing insurance companies can do to increase their profits is raise prices or deny coverage.. Thus this industry should NOT be for-profit. Especially not when it’s deemed a necessity like health, fire or auto insurance. The Government should implement national not-for-profit insurance companies and banks and let the for-profit guys try to compete. If they can’t, than they don’t deserve to exist. That’s the Free-Market Mantra or am I missing something.
    And in the case of the banks, there is another serious problem that is eliminated with nationalization. Industries inherently grow by nature, consuming smaller businesses along their path until they become so large, they become To Big To Fail.. They become so vital a part of the machinery of commerce they cannot be allowed to fail, no matter how badly they perform, and this protection from failure all but insures they will NOT perform in the end. Failure is a vital part of a functioning free market, for it culls the herd. The market does not work, if ALL participants are not allowed to fail when no longer competitive. The same TBTF argument holds true for all industries absolutely critical to a healthy economy, such as utilities and regulatory agencies. Stability is more important than cost, when it comes to these critical path services. Why regulate them to death to keep them stable? Nationalize them and remove the profit aspect completely. Force them to provide services to the public at cost. They can still be run like any other non-profit company. They don’t have to be repositories for mediocrity like so many government services. That is a result of poor structure, not an inherent function of non-profits or nationalized business. Non-profit Hospitals are traditionally much better hospitals than their for-profit competitors, proof that profit isn’t necessary for a quality company.. And profit inherently places the companies focus on the investors, not on the welfare of the employees or even the customer in many cases.
    If we have learned anything from the recent crash, it is that stability is more important than cost when it comes to critical services. We also need to recognize that we can no longer put the interests of the investor above those that do the work, for it creates a destructive economic caste system..
    One last note… Another thing Socialism, (or maybe a better name would be Socialistic Capitalism) brings is the ability to prepare for the future. It is painfully clear that the Socialist governments of Europe have demonstrated far greater vision in their infrastructure development. Their levies are overdesigned. They have significant portions of their power supplied by renewable sources, even when it is more expensive. They have the power to prepare for the future, even when it is not profitable this quarter, something that is almost counterintuitive to free-market, quarterly report driven for-profit business.
    With the plethora of challenges we face in the coming decades, we need the kind of vision that comes from looking out for the whole, through Socialistic Capitalism, and not just the ruthless individualism of the Friedman-esc free market. -Eric Harrington.



  4. #4
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Well.,. as "discussion" of this issue makes clear, around 30% of the voters belong in sheltered care facilities for their own protection:


    "Until Thursday evening, nothing in Bob Collier’s 62 years had stirred
    in him the slightest desire to take a stand — about anything — in
    public (however) Bob Collier, 62, drove more than an hour to attend a
    health care forum in Albany, Ga.... to his wife’s astonishment, as the
    session drew into its third hour, Mr. Collier rose to take the
    microphone and firmly, but courteously, urged Mr. Bishop to oppose the
    health care legislation being written in Washington..."....“I think
    you’re going to have all the efficiency of the post office with the
    compassion of the I.R.S.” ...

    ... When Ms. Collier’s breast cancer was diagnosed three years ago,
    Mr. Collier’s employer-provided insurance paid for her office visits, a
    biopsy and three surgeries. But the insurer covered only a small
    fraction of her radiation treatments, which it considered experimental,
    leaving the Colliers with a $63,000 bill. To their great relief, the
    charge was later written off by Emory Healthcare, whose doctors had
    recommended the regimen.

    Mr. Collier’s employer, Buccaneer Inc., which is based in Atlanta,
    pays 100 percent of his health premiums but requires $509 a month to
    cover his wife. That cost has been escalating by at least 15 percent a
    year, and the couple’s deductibles have quadrupled.

    Furthermore, Mr. Collier recognizes that were he to lose the job he
    has held for 39 years, his wife’s pre-existing condition might well
    make her uninsurable...

    “We’ve got to do something about those people who can’t get
    insurance,” he said. “There has to be a safety net there. But I don’t
    want that safety net to catch too many people".

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/he...t=Search&scp=2

    Michael Thomas
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Tort reform would solve many problems. Someone please refresh my memory: why is it that so many in DC are against tort reform?

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Tort reform would solve many problems. Someone please refresh my memory: why is it that so many in DC are against tort reform?


    Hmmm

    Ahhh

    Hmmm

    Could it be...well...maybe..could it be that many are lawyers and or get paid off from lawyers....I don't know, that might not be it.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    Some interesting points on the new "health Care" bill. I would love to hear any comments. YouTube - Congressman Mike Rogers' opening statement on Health Care reform in Washington D.C.

    A.D please don't post if you have nothing to back your claims. Another words, I mean keep a civil tongue unless you have anything but your own thoughts!!!!!
    MS: As of exactly what time today did you become the arbiter of what I should say and where I should say it? WTF are you thinking?


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Tort reform would solve many problems. Someone please refresh my memory: why is it that so many in DC are against tort reform?
    SP: Because most of them are attorneys?


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    VH:
    Many people consider the things which government does for them to be social progress, but they consider the things government does for others as socialism.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    As of exactly what time today did you become the arbiter of what I should say and where I should say it?
    I believe it was around 3:35 when I made the post.

    WTF are you thinking?
    I was thinking how can I yank A.D's chain............

    I find it amusing how you comment on certain subjects

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Richardson or Sachse?


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Ah... here we go again - rhetoric vs. reality.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Take a seat.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Some Question I have. It take about 3 weeks for me to see my Doc... now

    So if we ad some 40 Million more people to the Doc's over book
    schedule Hows this going to work?


    Then what Do I need to do 2 or 3 extra inspection a month to pay for some else to see the Doc that I can not get in to see now?

    How will this work?

    Best

    Ron


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Ron

    If you really think you need adequate medical care move to France.

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Preexisting condition they will not let me in Dang it to ^*^*&^* JIM...

    And I can't get a passport... NO BODY LOVE ME


    Best

    Ron


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    I find it amusing how you comment on certain subjects
    Simple pleasures for simple minds.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Richardson or Sachse?
    Neither.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    For the short-sighted (both literal and figurative) among us, regarding the proposed health care plan, you may wish to read a little national history on the subject.

    The Social Security program, which is now revered by most of the people (especially those who are nearing the time when they can draw funds from it), was originally derided as "socialistic" and "communistic" by the morons of FDR's time.

    There will always be morons whose only claim to fame is to be detractors of progress.

    Whatever you hear in the media regarding the plan is just that, media BS. Whatever you hear in the media about how programs in other countries work, it is also just that, more media BS. I have friends in Germany, Italy, Spain, the Czech Republic and Bulgaria. All of these countries have what here would be referred to as "socialized medicine". The health care they receive is far superior to what I have access to and the doctors there are still quite busy and continue to make high salaries.

    Change is always going to be difficult for those who either fear thinking or are no longer capable of it. But change is inevitable, the conservative point of view notwithstanding.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    It seems this discussion breaks along the traditional party lines with the liberal crowd espousing universal health care and the conservative and independents pretty well in the other camp trying to limit government.
    One question comes to mind from the issue though is WHY do fiercely independent people who rail against supposed government violations of free speech, free thought, free expression, war, etc. suddenly drop all resistance to government intervention in their lives to worship at the altar of the almighty government when it is providing "free" health care? What happened to the "question authority" mentality of the sixties on the subject of socialistic programs?
    Just remember, once these programs are in effect, there will be no going back and there is an election every so often, the other party will be in power with MORE power that the current party gave them.

    One more question, someone please explain how health care can be cheaper when paid for with taxes than when paid for with private funds? Will the government auditors, clerks, etc. work for free? It seems that I have heard that approximately 10-30% of federal tax revenue is consumed by the government overhead, pretty close if not above the profit of most well run corporations.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Plano, Texas

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    This is about a rather amazing Canadian Mayor, wish we had some like her!


    YouTube - Welcome to Mississauga great viewing, I'd vote for her. (6 minutes)

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    It seems this discussion breaks along the traditional party lines with the liberal crowd espousing universal health care and the conservative and independents pretty well in the other camp trying to limit government.
    JL: I have never branded myself as "liberal", "independent", "moderate", or "conservative".

    One question comes to mind from the issue though is WHY do fiercely independent people who rail against supposed government violations of free speech, free thought, free expression, war, etc. suddenly drop all resistance to government intervention in their lives to worship at the altar of the almighty government when it is providing "free" health care?
    JL: I do not "worship at the altar" of anyone or anything. And, it has never been my contention that health care in the country, as it is now, or as it has been recently proposed is in any way "free".

    What happened to the "question authority" mentality of the sixties on the subject of socialistic programs?
    JL: Which "socialistic programs" are you referring to? And, before you answer that one, tell us this: which of those programs are you presently benefiting from?

    Just remember, once these programs are in effect, there will be no going back and there is an election every so often, the other party will be in power with MORE power that the current party gave them.
    JL: More conservative hyperbolic blather. I can provide you with a very long list of government programs that have been abolished.

    One more question, someone please explain how health care can be cheaper when paid for with taxes than when paid for with private funds?
    JL: Who said it would be cheaper? The idea is to make it universally available.

    Will the government auditors, clerks, etc. work for free?
    JL: Why would you expect them to? Do you work for free? Stupid question.

    Take whatever position you want on this. It really does not matter. The change is afoot and no amount of conservative whining and harping will make it otherwise.


  23. #23
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JL: I have never branded myself as "liberal", "independent", "moderate", or "conservative".



    JL: I do not "worship at the altar" of anyone or anything. And, it has never been my contention that health care in the country, as it is now, or as it has been recently proposed is in any way "free".



    JL: Which "socialistic programs" are you referring to? And, before you answer that one, tell us this: which of those programs are you presently benefiting from?



    JL: More conservative hyperbolic blather. I can provide you with a very long list of government programs that have been abolished.



    JL: Who said it would be cheaper? *you are kidding right?????* The idea is to make it universally available.



    JL: Why would you expect them to? Do you work for free? Stupid question.

    Take whatever position you want on this. It really does not matter. The change is afoot and no amount of conservative whining and harping will make it otherwise.
    Two aspects of the entire program as put forth by the want to be founders of the program are

    1. "drive health care costs down because it is one of the biggest factors with the poor state of our economy and we must make health care available to all and affordable for all US citizens"

    2. "making it universaly available to all citizens"

    I think you will also want to have a reality check about why all the worlds rich come to this country for health care. Hmm. Why you might ask?????

    Because the US offers the best health care and doctors in the world (also the most expensive) (on that note....that is one of the biggies that the national health care sytem is suppose to be all about....driving cost down.)

    You are a very intelligent man (I think). In saying that you really have to go back and check things out again because you appear to not know in the slightest what you are talking about on this subject matter.

    I also have friends thoughout the world. I think you may want to ask some more in depth questions to your friends. I am not talking about going to the doctor to get a splinter out of their arses. The only reason they like their health care is because they never have to worry about it. They pay massive taxes to get that health care...Can we say upper 40s to mid 50s percent in taxes. Is that what you really want.

    I absolutely know for sure ypou are pulling everyones leg with all this crapolla.

    I for one want free health care, a retirement single family home and 50,000.00 a year in retirement, tax free until the day I die. Oh yeah. A couple hundred a week in free food from the grocery store of my choice. What I don't use I will give to some needy family. Almost forgot. I want a paid for vehicle with the insurance included and a free gas card and repairs as well. and....A two week all expences paid vacation once a year to the place of my choosing. Hm. I was going to ask for a boat as well but that might be going a bit far.

    I won't be greedy. I will stop there.



  25. #25
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JL: I have never branded myself as "liberal", "independent", "moderate", or "conservative".
    I don't believe I mentioned you by name even if you were in my thoughts when considering my writing. But please note though, if you support the things you have espoused here on this board, that you do align yourself with the liberal ideology whether you label yourself such or not.



    JL: I do not "worship at the altar" of anyone or anything. And, it has never been my contention that health care in the country, as it is now, or as it has been recently proposed is in any way "free".
    Others in the current administration seem to insinuate this, and health care provide by the government, employers, etc. with no payment from the individual is free to the person.



    JL: Which "socialistic programs" are you referring to? And, before you answer that one, tell us this: which of those programs are you presently benefiting from?
    In specific, nationalized health care, but the list could go on. Yes, I have benefited from Socialistic Programs, but benefiting does not mean I agree with or support. I received Social Security survivor benefits when my dad died and I am thankful at age 16 that it was there but to create a mandatory program that takes away over 12% of all wages and redistributes it with the SS administration skimming off the top may not have been the best use of the money.



    JL: More conservative hyperbolic blather. I can provide you with a very long list of government programs that have been abolished.
    So you think Social Security, Medicare, Medicare Drug Benefit could be abolished without the upheaval of society and the certain "third rail" suicide of the politicians involved?


    JL: Who said it would be cheaper? The idea is to make it universally available.
    President Obama and every Democratic town hall meeting I have seen on the news.



    JL: Why would you expect them to? Do you work for free? Stupid question.
    More of a Rhetorical question, but it goes back to the selling points of the program.

    Take whatever position you want on this. It really does not matter. The change is afoot and no amount of conservative whining and harping will make it otherwise.
    Change happens, but change for changes sake is childish and short-sighted. If change is needed, then make definitive changes to remedy specific problems without creating new problems. Let's don't reinvent the wheel just because there is a bump in the road.
    Let's call the health care plan what it is; social engineering. The left will not be happy until the government controls and provides for everything in our lives, cradle to grave.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform


    The post office is not functional. The Gov just keeps printing more money for it. It is a couple billion in debt.

    Oh yeah...I thought you did not like media dribble. Especially when it comes to a man who also has not a clue on what he is commenting on. Bill Maher...... The liberal of all liberals. Doesn't bother him. None of what he talks about is going to mhave any affect on him...Oh yeah...That is just like the Gov officials. You can garranty that none of this will have an affect on them. They will make sure they get paid back for any out of pocket money that they have to deal with.

    Well. He did get the part right about the insurance companies, for the most part.


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    I think you will also want to have a reality check about why all the worlds rich come to this country for health care. Hmm. Why you might ask?????


    TM: More top-grade BS from west of the Trinity. Even India and Thailand, just to mention two, provide better medical services for less than half the cost.

    Because the US offers the best health care and doctors in the world
    TM: See above.

    I also have friends thoughout the world.
    TM: They must all be in Mexico and the Philippines.

    Last edited by A.D. Miller; 08-26-2009 at 02:50 PM.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    I new A.D would say something with no backing.. .. Bill M. what a joke of a man. He would have you beheaded before you could blink an eye.

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    I normally choke on anything Bill Maher says, but I have to agree with him on one thing, I like the post office and think they do a fantastic job the vast majority of the time. But, the post office is not a tax supported entity is it?

    The USPS is often mistaken for a government-owned corporation (e.g., Amtrak), but as noted above is legally defined as an "independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States," (39 U.S.C. § 201) as it is wholly owned by the government and controlled by the Presidential appointees and the Postmaster General.
    The rest of Maher's opinions don't resonate so much, but then he is a comedian and wants to be controversial.
    Hmm, Aaron, are you really a comedian in hiding?

    Jim Luttrall
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    Plano, Texas

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Change happens, but change for changes sake is childish and short-sighted.
    JL: If you cannot see the need for a change in the way our health care system operates, then you are blind, not just short-sighted. Further, the idea that this change is being made just for the sake of making a change is beyond childish. It is inane.

    If change is needed, then make definitive changes to remedy specific problems without creating new problems.
    JL: In the white-bread conservative Republican bastion of Collin County it may be (theoretically) possible to make drastic changes and get every single aspect of the changes right from the beginning. That is not the case in the rest of the world.

    Let's don't reinvent the wheel just because there is a bump in the road.
    JL: Cute saying, it just does not apply. This wheel has been broken for decades.

    Let's call the health care plan what it is; social engineering.
    JL: What a crock statement that is. I guess the post office, military, banking system, et al. are also "social engineering". If Republican parents practiced some of the same, thinking individuals might not be constantly bombarded by conservatives' nearly complete lack of understanding of even the simplest subjects.

    In your mind I suppose that the concept of the free market policing itself is an integrous one. Wake up and look around. The "free market" has nearly gutted the middle class - to which you belong - in this country. It will soon be the haves and have-nots with nobody in between. Then, as you seem to be implying, it will indeed be a market that is free for the wealthy to exploit as they will.

    Last edited by A.D. Miller; 08-26-2009 at 02:51 PM.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    I normally choke on anything Bill Maher says, but I have to agree with him on one thing, I like the post office and think they do a fantastic job the vast majority of the time. But, the post office is not a tax supported entity is it?


    The rest of Maher's opinions don't resonate so much, but then he is a comedian and wants to be controversial.
    Hmm, Aaron, are you really a comedian in hiding?
    Actually the post office is tax supported. That is how they get bailed out every year because they are in debt every year. They are going to be so far in the hole due to retiring folks and money needed to pay them every year for God knows how long. The retiring folks keep getting larger and larger compared to employees and the employees keep getting that cost of living raise and vacation and health and sick days etc etc.

    Soon a private company will come in and take it over and their employees won't be retiring for 20 to 30 years or so and will be able to keep the cost down until then. Matter of fact they will be able to garranty lower cost for some time until all that takes place......Just a thought

    You pay for stamps and then you pay for the bail out. I would call that tax (payer) supported.


  32. #32
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform


  33. #33
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JL: If you cannot see the need for a change in the way our health care system operates, then you are blind, not just short-sighted. Further, the idea that this change is being made just for the sake of making a change is beyond childish. It is inane.



    JL: In the white-bread conservative Republican bastion of Collin County it may be (theoretically) possible to make drastic changes and get every single aspect of the change right from the beginning. That is not the case in the rest of the world.



    JL: Cute saying, it just does not apply. This wheel has been broken for decades.



    JL: What a crock statement that is. I guess the post office, military, banking system, et al. are also "social engineering". If Republican parents practiced some of the same, thinking individuals might not be constantly bombarded by conservatives' nearly complete lack of understanding of even the simplest subjects.

    In your mind I suppose that the concept of the free market policing itself is an integrous one. Wake up and look around. The "free market" has nearly gutted the middle class - to which you belong - in this country. It will soon be the haves and have-nots with nobody in between. Then, as you seem to be implying, it will indeed be a market that is free for the wealthy to exploit as they will.
    Red Highlight

    You are kidding...right???????? The free market made a massive and strong middle class. You are living pretty good....RIGHT???????? Jim is living pretty good ...RIGHT. Jerry, Rick and countless others are living pretty good ....RIGHT. Well, they are all of the middle class. I don't see their guts hanging on the floor. Where exactly do you live...Never mind I know. Pretty crappy neighborhood huh??????? You are living the middle class dream my friend. You need to start being a more well rounded news watcher or something. Either that or stop watching the news altogether.

    Blue highlight

    Your kidding....right. That is what happens to fully socialized countries or communist countries or dictator led countries


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    You are kidding...right????????
    TM: Hardly. But, with your obviously well-cultivated ignorance (which equates to stupidity) you will likely never realize it.


  35. #35
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  36. #36
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post

    TM: Hardly. But, with your obviously well-cultivated ignorance (which equates to stupidity) you will likely never realize it.
    Good morning Aaron

    How are you this fine day?


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Good morning Aaron

    How are you this fine day?
    TM:




  38. #38
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Jim Luttral,

    In response to how health care will be cheaper when administered by the government.
    My wife is an advanced nurse praticioner in a level 3 neonatal unit. Quite simply to reduce cost in her line of work premature babies who are outside of the statistical probability curve for survival will be issued a do not resusitate order. The fact that due to advances in medical research premies at 28 weeks have a fair chance of survival will be negated to save money for those within the statistical curve. So if you are Joe Average citizen and never get sick outside the normal boundries - your in like Flint. If you are out of the normal range better have a good burial plan or be in the house or senate since the rules don't apply to them.


  39. #39
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Loughran View Post
    Jim Luttral,

    In response to how health care will be cheaper when administered by the government.
    My wife is an advanced nurse praticioner in a level 3 neonatal unit. Quite simply to reduce cost in her line of work premature babies who are outside of the statistical probability curve for survival will be issued a do not resusitate order. The fact that due to advances in medical research premies at 28 weeks have a fair chance of survival will be negated to save money for those within the statistical curve. So if you are Joe Average citizen and never get sick outside the normal boundries - your in like Flint. If you are out of the normal range better have a good burial plan or be in the house or senate since the rules don't apply to them.
    EL: You paint a bleak picture for one with no sight of the subject being depicted. While the hypothetical scenario you so wildly conjecture, like any other nonsense, could (in another universe) be true, it will never happen that way. And you are devoid of any facts to illustrate where it will.


  40. #40
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    I normally choke on anything Bill Maher says
    JL: Could that be because he is diametrically opposed to you philosophically? And, because he is right?

    The rest of Maher's opinions don't resonate so much, but then he is a comedian and wants to be controversial.
    JL: The biggest threat of fundamentalist religion-backed conservatism is that, if it is not written in their mythological "holy book", it is somehow controversial. This leaves the door closed to discussion for the most part with those of opposing views. This near total lack of any significant dialog has led to the great divide between the 80% of the Americans who believe in talking snakes and a mere 6,000 years of history and those of us who inhabit the real world.

    Hmm, Aaron, are you really a comedian in hiding?
    JL: Without a sense of humor all is lost. And, I have never been in hiding. But, thanks for the compliment.

    Last edited by A.D. Miller; 08-26-2009 at 02:54 PM.

  41. #41
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    AD Miller.

    If my comments are off track - and don't pan out you will receive my apology. However this cost cutting scenario was not predicted during this presidents term, but during Clintons, when Hillary Care was thankfully not adopted. I personally think that if you look at the VA hospitals and how they are managed you will have some insight as to what awaits the public when our government administers things.


  42. #42
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Loughran View Post
    AD Miller.

    If my comments are off track - and don't pan out you will receive my apology. However this cost cutting scenario was not predicted during this presidents term, but during Clintons, when Hillary Care was thankfully not adopted. I personally think that if you look at the VA hospitals and how they are managed you will have some insight as to what awaits the public when our government administers things.
    And if you can not see where unrestrained free market health care has taken us, then you are sightless or gullible enough to follow the shepherd to be sheared again and again by the insurance, pharmaceutical and for profit hospitals.


  43. #43
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    You pay for stamps and then you pay for the bail out. I would call that tax (payer) supported.
    I would call that payment for a service rendered. Purely optional, want a letter delivered, buy the service the USPS is selling or deliver it your self.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Plano, Texas

  44. #44
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    If somebody is unable to understand THIS explanation, I have serious doubts about their ability to even function in society, much less run our country!

    As the late Adrian Rogers said, "you cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."



    Professor is a Genius




    An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before,
    but had once failed an entire class.

    --------------------------------------------

    That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.


    The professor then said, "OK,
    we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan".


    All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.


    After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
    The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.


    As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
    The second test average was a D!
    No one was happy.


    When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

    The scores never increased as bickering,
    blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.


    All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.


    Could not be any simpler than that.

    AD you said :Even India and Thailand, just to mention two, provide better medical services for half the cost

    And they make $15.00 bucks a week! so our $100.00 dollar treatment only cost them $50.00, Kinda the same is it not..........

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  45. #45
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Loughran View Post
    AD Miller.

    If my comments are off track - and don't pan out you will receive my apology. However this cost cutting scenario was not predicted during this presidents term, but during Clintons, when Hillary Care was thankfully not adopted. I personally think that if you look at the VA hospitals and how they are managed you will have some insight as to what awaits the public when our government administers things.
    EL: I agree that the VA medical system is a mess. This is in no small part due to the disrespect with which the government is treating its armed services members. This was not always the case. You can't saddle Obama with this one though. Realistically speaking, he has a full plate and has simply not been in office long enough to even attempt to repair all of the damage done by his predecessors.


  46. #46
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    And if you can not see where unrestrained free market health care has taken us, then you are sightless or gullible enough to follow the shepherd to be sheared again and again by the insurance, pharmaceutical and for profit hospitals.
    You're kidding, right?

    Every state regulates insurers and have widely varying mandates that affect premium costs.

    Give me the ability to buy insurance across state lines and most of the problem goes away.


  47. #47
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    I would call that payment for a service rendered. Purely optional, want a letter delivered, buy the service the USPS is selling or deliver it your self.
    Just making a statement, that was all. The point was gov run business such as the post office. No matter how much more money they get every year it is absolutely never enough. The people in the post office work like dogs to get the mail out every day. The reason being is because of the tail end support they have to give everyone that once work for them with retirement, medical etc. They will never have enough money because as time goes on there will be more retiries collecting retirement and medical and the cost of the staff to get the mail delivered along with everything else.

    Yes the Post Office works but never on a budget.

    Can the Medical coverage work.....Think about it....All us older farts are beginning to retire in the near future with millions right behind them for decades collecting their medical and social security.

    There is absolutely nothing in the Medical Insurance bill that has anything to do with lowering costs. There will have to be more nurses and more doctors to handle all the folks with new found coverage who will now be going to the doctor with a wittle sniffew. Now throw all the old folks on top of that when they overrun the market with all their old fart woes.

    Plus being handled by the gov there will be a tremendous amount of folks on gov payroll to handle all this mess. which will retire someda that the gov has to pay retirement and medical to.

    It is not a winning battle at all. The only thing that would work is if the gov became the insurance company and all the multi million dollar pay checks to all the execs at all the insurance companies went away and the profit end went away. Just the gov taking over the insurance companies and getting rid of all the folks skimming off the top all the way down to middle management and their fat paychecks and get rid of all the folks that do nothing but review cases to see what they can reject for payment to save money to make a huge profit so they and the middle management and execs all get their fat paychecks before any medical treatment gets paid for.

    But really.....Do you ever think that would ever happen.....Not

    Just some thoughts

    It is either a free market society or it is not. A happy mix of both as we see now (even though it needs serious work) is how it can work. To go beyond a certain point of mixing socialist programs and free market programs turns things to a serious downward trend that can also not maintain.....as what is happening right now.

    Free up the free market.

    Tighten up lending and borrowing......print money so we can hand it out, so we can loosen up lending and borrowing practices so the economy can be repaired. Hoooooooly crapper....What a concept Stop spending money so the gov can print money and hand it out so then we will be able to spend money again to get the economy going so we can pay off the money the gov printed. I am getting freaking dizzy ........................................


  48. #48
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    You're kidding, right?

    Every state regulates insurers and have widely varying mandates that affect premium costs.

    Give me the ability to buy insurance across state lines and most of the problem goes away.
    ML: While that is most likely the case, would that not also entail either independent and unanimous agreement on the parts of the governments of all 50 states, or an official edict from the federal government? And, are you not among the group which is advocating less involvement of the government, be it state or national?


  49. #49
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    I want the TED KENNEDY Plan

    Best

    Ron


  50. #50
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    I want the TED KENNEDY Plan

    Best

    Ron
    RB: What will happen when that cottonmouth on the other thread bites you and it takes 3 weeks to get in to see your doctor?



  51. #51
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Personally I think Bill Maher is a genius and agree with most of Mr. Miller's opinions. The American people are totally confused by the reckless rhetoric from right wing zealots and have lost their will to boot. As I've said for years we should get rid of our government and appoint a benevolent king. Just think of the savings in money by closing down DC? The longer one lives the closer one moves towards becoming an anarchist. While I’m at it I wonder how many of our government health program protestors are on Medicare?

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  52. #52
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Personally I think Bill Maher is a genius
    JM: Agreed.

    The American people are totally confused by the reckless rhetoric from right wing zealots and have lost their will to boot.
    JM: Agreed.

    The longer one lives the closer one moves towards becoming an anarchist.
    JM: Yep.


    While I’m at it I wonder how many of our government health program protestors are on Medicare?
    JM: About 80%, I think.


  53. #53
    Mitchell Toelle's Avatar
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    Red face Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    This video could just as easily been titled "Stupid Democrats" or "Stupid Progressives" or "Stupid ???". So what's you're point A.D.? As if most could not guess....or perhaps there is only one window in the box you have placed yourself in.

    And please, if you don't have a smart, well thought out, or at the least, clever response to posters don't move yourself to the sub-level by name calling. THAT's just stupid, not funny!


  54. #54
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    You're kidding, right?

    Every state regulates insurers and have widely varying mandates that affect premium costs.

    Give me the ability to buy insurance across state lines and most of the problem goes away.
    "Across state lines" will help to create healthy competition... thus lowering premiums and increasing benefits. Of course measures would probably need to be put in place that would prohibit price fixing, but the consumer would certainly be able to shop more product.


  55. #55
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    AD Miller,

    I have not tried to saddle this on any political party. If anything the problem lies with the continuing public apathy of not getting involved in the political process. Right now, if I don't like my health care plan (but I do and it is affordable) I can change plans. Once the government gets in there is no turning back, and it is not going to be cheaper for the level of care I and my family receive.


  56. #56
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    I Say lets cut the country in half. All the left go to one side and All Right go to the other side. Then the Left winger can have all there programs and save the earth and hug trees and TAXES up the Wang yang and continue to buy oil for the East. and so on...we can then see just how long it works out.

    Same with the Right. We can all get to Drilling for oil. and Gas Putting up Nuke-power plants. And cut out taxes. Rip down the trees and plant new ones. Have our guns and keep the peace. Each person can get to work on providing for them self. The Church can take over feeding the poor and providing for there needs. Then can be Instructed in the golden rules from the bible. And if any man Murders he can be put to death in due time. and so on...we can then see just how long it works out.

    Best

    Ron


  57. #57
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Personally I think Bill Maher is a genius and agree with most of Mr. Miller's opinions. The American people are totally confused by the reckless rhetoric from right wing zealots and have lost their will to boot. As I've said for years we should get rid of our government and appoint a benevolent king. Just think of the savings in money by closing down DC? The longer one lives the closer one moves towards becoming an anarchist. While I’m at it I wonder how many of our government health program protesters are on Medicare?
    If the reckless rhetoric is from the right wing zealots, what are the words of wisdom from the left wing zealots? Is there ANYONE farther left than Bill Maher and the present administration?
    I would submit that most of the folks involved in the current "tea party" and health care debates at the town hall meetings are actually mainstream middle of the road folks. We can point people further right... is there anyone further left?? Well, I'll give you Rosie McDonald, but anyone who is not totally insane?

    Jim Luttrall
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    Plano, Texas

  58. #58
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    ML: While that is most likely the case, would that not also entail either independent and unanimous agreement on the parts of the governments of all 50 states, or an official edict from the federal government? And, are you not among the group which is advocating less involvement of the government, be it state or national?
    I support federal legislation to permit me to buy health insurance across state lines.

    Do you?


  59. #59
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Loughran View Post
    AD Miller,

    I have not tried to saddle this on any political party. If anything the problem lies with the continuing public apathy of not getting involved in the political process. Right now, if I don't like my health care plan (but I do and it is affordable) I can change plans. Once the government gets in there is no turning back, and it is not going to be cheaper for the level of care I and my family receive.
    EL: While I agree that public apathy in this country is at an all time high and this is certainly a contributing factor to our current condition, it is not the only malady from which we suffer; nor is it the most life-threatening.

    As for the limitation of your options, I feel that it will be similar to your retirement plan now. You have the option to take your Social Security payments or not. You can also opt for any number of alternative retirement plans from stuffing your mattress to stocks, bonds, et al.

    Regarding "cheaper": the very idea that during the same time a service is vastly improved it must necessarily become significantly less expensive is a mere pipe dream in a capitalistic society.


  60. #60
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Aaron can we help every person in the world? If not how about just half ?
    If not how about 1/4 ? At what point do you stop and say I can't take the food from my keds and give it to a bum on the streets that will not work?

    Best

    Ron


  61. #61
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Ron I believe allot of people are on your wavelength.

    Where does it stop. I believe in workfare not welfare, I believe in barter not lets take care of the world.

    I believe in Helping somone that helps themselves not looking for a free ride!

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  62. #62
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Tort reform and the ability to buy insurance across state lines would go a long way at improving medical cost and care in the US. We have two very good friends who are doctors, one is an OB GYN and the other is an Oncologist. The OB GYN malpractice (E&O in our world) runs her right at $180,000 a year; she said that if she stops delivering babies it will go down by $70,000! The Oncologist pays $130,000 a year for his malpractice insurance; he said that in 1989 when he started he was paying $11,000 a year!

    Again, Tort Reform is a major key to this problem.

    I would like to hear from some of our Canadian brothers and sisters, Y'all have health coverage for everyone in the country. How is it working? How is it funded? How much tax do you pay for it? Let's hear it first hand from folks that live in Canada!

    My wife and I have several friends in Canada, a couple of them are from the States; they married Canadians and moved North. For the most they actually like the health care in Canada, they say if you are sick you get the care you need including the meds.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 08-27-2009 at 06:55 AM.
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  63. #63
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    Aaron can we help every person in the world? If not how about just half ?
    If not how about 1/4 ? At what point do you stop and say I can't take the food from my keds and give it to a bum on the streets that will not work?

    Best

    Ron
    We already pay for the health care of the un-insured, and shame on us if we ever stop. How will we portray Sadam in our history books if we do? The un-insured use the emergency rooms for office visits and runny nose as they can not be refused treatment. I have close knowledge, not the friend of a friend urban myth, which had colon cancer. No insurance and the total cost for treatment to her was $500, only half of what most deductibles are. Who do you think paid for that?

    With a government health care option even the kid flipping burgers will help with the cost. It is unlikely the government will give multi-million dollar bonuses to its employees for doing there job. It will not be necessary to work the system and flood emergency rooms, and minor treatable conditions will not be left to turn into major medical expenses.

    Not all un-insured are bum’s. There is such a thing as luck and not all of it is good!
    No one is suggesting we give away wide screen TV’s or buy steak for the unemployed (which we already do!), just provide affordable health care for every citizen.

    Who is this industry you so fervently defend? What is there “product” what innovative thing do they do year after year to justify there existence let alone exorbitant salaries and bonuses? If they can not compete with a government health care program then they can sell motorcycle insurance. No one has to have motorcycle insurance, and when they drop your coverage you will not lose your home and life savings.


  64. #64
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    I posted this in post # 14. and no one replyed.

    Vern can you help?

    Some Question I have. It take about 3 weeks for me to see my Doc... now

    So if we ad some 40 Million more people to the Doc's over book
    schedule Hows this going to work?


    Then what Do I need to do 2 or 3 extra inspection a month to pay for some else to see the Doc that I can not get in to see now?

    How will this work?

    Best

    Ron



  65. #65
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    Default Re: Health Care Reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    We already pay for the health care of the un-insured, and shame on us if we ever stop. How will we portray Sadam in our history books if we do? The un-insured use the emergency rooms for office visits and runny nose as they can not be refused treatment. I have close knowledge, not the friend of a friend urban myth, which had colon cancer. No insurance and the total cost for treatment to her was $500, only half of what most deductibles are. Who do you think paid for that?

    With a government health care option even the kid flipping burgers will help with the cost. It is unlikely the government will give multi-million dollar bonuses to its employees for doing there job. It will not be necessary to work the system and flood emergency rooms, and minor treatable conditions will not be left to turn into major medical expenses.

    Not all un-insured are bum’s. There is such a thing as luck and not all of it is good!
    No one is suggesting we give away wide screen TV’s or buy steak for the unemployed (which we already do!), just provide affordable health care for every citizen.

    Who is this industry you so fervently defend? What is there “product” what innovative thing do they do year after year to justify there existence let alone exorbitant salaries and bonuses? If they can not compete with a government health care program then they can sell motorcycle insurance. No one has to have motorcycle insurance, and when they drop your coverage you will not lose your home and life savings.

    You make it sound all so simple. I know and have known hoards of people with no health care coverage.....They never go to the Doctors or emergency rooms. Give them all affordable (and what do you call affordable if they cannot afford it now????) health insurance and then they will be like everyone else flooding the doctors offices for a little sniffle.

    There are quite simply not enough Doctors and Nurses to go around for everyone to use the system like all those already do with their health care.

    I do believe, that you believe, the folks speaking out against all this are trouble making ignorant idiots that don't know what they are talking about.

    Do you want to pay in the vicinity if 50% tax on every dollar you make. I am talking out of your paycheck. These other countries everyone is so fondly alluding to pay tax rates in that ballpark.

    Look. I know I sound like I am totaly against health care for everyone, but I am not, it has to be thought of a whole lot harder than it has already.

    If you think everyone without health care is already using the system I suggest you think again. It is just a tiny portion that do not have medical coverage that are flocking to the Hospital emergency rooms.

    I do not have medical coverage. At this moment I pay as I go. Do you know how hard it is to go to the doctors office and tell them you don't have medical coverage and you are paying in cash. They look at you like you are the village idiot and still want you to fill out all the forms even if you don't have medical coverage to list and then they do not know how to catergorize you. Medical coverage for me for a half way decent plan is about 500 a month. God forbid about pre existing or past medical concerns.

    Nothing in the plans for this coverage have anything to do with lowering costs. The one biggest item with this health coverage for all is to lower costs so it is affordable for all. Bull crap. Again, what do you call affordable for all. And who are you to say if someone else can afford it. There is nothing in there that is going to do that at the moment.

    I will end with this. Both sides have a start to a good argument for why or why not.

    I am for something to do with some kind of plan but from what I see there is no plan at the moment with the exception of just throw it at everyone and worry about it later.

    As I stated earlier. I want free medical, 50,000.00 tax free retirement money, 150 in free food from the grocery store of my choice, a car for my retirement, a gas card to pay for my gas, insurance for my car and retirement home etc etc etc etc. Some how I just do not think everyone else will go along with that.

    Enact a medical plan for everyone now and then wait and see what happens when all the old farts start retiring or just plain ole getting older. SS, medical coverage just for them is (I am one of them by the way) going to be the back breaker for this country. I think that is what we should be extremely concerned with that right now.

    Ok. I said I was done. Wrong !! Why in the hell are we(the gov...Demss) trying to push all these freaking programs thru in one of the biggest money losing times there has been in decades. Job loss is still massive. Not enough money coming in in every state to pay for programs in those states ot the gov for that matter and the dems want to push these programs thru riding on Obamas popularity.

    It is freaking criminal.........................................

    Everyone wants to bitch about the guy that gambled on being able to afford a home. Every city in every state enacted all kinds of programs and hired people all based on what the economy was doing at the time. Many cities and counties and states and gov are raising taxes on those still working, in a multitude of various ways to make up for the city, state and gov poor planning for the future. Because they all based it on how the economy was and what they could afford at the moment.

    Oh yeah....Multi million dollar bonuses to gov employees. You are right they won't do that. But they will hire a multitude of people and open a multitude of offices and accountants and and and and and anmd which will just about add up to the multi million dollar bonuses. The freaky fact is that all those folks hired will be gov empoloyees that will all retire someday that we will also be paying for in the future which will also break this country.

    The expense for all this is so far reaching it is insane.

    I vote for stopping everything in its tracts. Everyone take a breath. Let the gov get back to work on matters that need attending and take a serious amount of time to put a proper plan together that not only satisfies folks now but also will take care of itself in the future and not completely fold this great country of ours.

    I also vote that if the senators and congressmen can work for 4 to 6 years and then get retirement and medical for life (what a freaking lame plan that is. Why have we never voted on a bill to kill that ignorant plan) that all military that are in for 4 years and get shot at everyday get retirement and free medical for life. Man won't that stir a stink with the gov. People that actually do something like risking their lives instaed of talking bullshit all day for 4 to 6 years and get a retirement and free medical for the rest of their lives.

    Well, time to go to work so I can pay for my next (if ever) doctors office visit.


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