Thread: There may still be hope and change in the future

Boy there are sure a lot of cranky, opinionated posters here lately. Maybe its the time of month or a seasonal affliction, end of summer, end of bar-b-que season, kids back to school, economy. Hmmmm....

Who The #%&*@#! you calling CRANKY

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Michael,

I do understand it, AND IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE ... including you, Ron, Ralph, and others.

It is clear from your use of it that you don't.

Try studying the bible instead of using it as a club.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Who The #%&*@#! you calling CRANKY

That 11 year old girls speach sure got a lot of old farts fired up.

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

It is clear from your use of it that you don't.

Michael,

As usual, and as always, you are wrong again.

Try studying the bible instead of using it as a club.

I did for many years. My father is a retired minister (went into that after having been an electrical contractor for a long time), have been around religion all my life, have seen so many of the "So-Called Christians" show up on Sunday only to screw everyone the rest of the week that it only makes one puke at the thought of it.

I see the same senses, talking, writing, actions, and bravado here on this board from the "So-Called" christians.

One of the few on this board I respect for that is Scott P., he believes and understands that he does not need to try to bring it all the time to affront others here.

Others here make it a point to bring it up whenever they can, and for those, there is no respect in that department.

Others here make it a point to bring it up whenever they can, and for those, there is no respect in that department.

JP: None from this quarter either.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I did for many years. My father is a retired minister (went into that after having been an electrical contractor for a long time), have been around religion all my life, have seen so many of the "So-Called Christians" show up on Sunday only to screw everyone the rest of the week that it only makes one puke at the thought of it.

Then either you were a lousy student or he was a lousy teacher.

The passage you quoted is not hard to understand when taken in context of what is going on what lesson is actually being taught.

Hint: It is about one particular type of individual and his judging.

The whole history of these books (i.e. the Gospels) is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. - Letter of Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, January 24, 1814.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. - Letter of Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787.

The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God, like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs. -Thomas Jefferson, Works, Vol. IV, p. 360.

Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man - Thomas Jefferson.

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.- John Adams, from Rufus K Noyes, Views of Religion

Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it. - John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.- John Adams, "this awful blasphemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion

I can go on like this until the Hann runs completely out of bandwidth.

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Then either you were a lousy student or he was a lousy teacher.

Seems to me that the only lousy student here is you and the only lousy teacher(s) was whoever you learned from.

Possibly related to the people I knew who professed to be very religious and very christian and that if you did not believe in their religion (yes, THEIR religion) and if you did not attend their church (yes, that one and only church) in which THEIR religion was taught, you were a sinner would would be condemned to hell.

Which, when you think about it, is only the same thing all christians believe, only on a more confined scale, making all christians and believers in only their one god as being the one god just a slightly different variation of those people.

There are some religions who believe in their god and accept your belief in your different god, but christians seem to think that they, and only they, know the only one real god.

That's like little kids believing that the entire world is what consists of 'on their block' because 'that is what they know'.

Kind of sad, really, once you understand the overall religious scope of the world.

As, I believe it was Ted, put it once a while back: If you only believe in your one god, you are 99.99% atheist because there are 1000 gods or more for the 1000 or more religions out there (I know, I worded it differently, but the same meaning is there).

If you only believe in your one god, you are 99.99% atheist because there are 1000 gods or more for the 1000 or more religions out there

JP: I can certainly say that ML is 99.99% superfluous.

Thought I had better throw in a few more, in case ML did not recognize the founding fathers . . .

Creationists make it sound like a ‘theory’ is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night — Isaac Asimov

I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life. — Andrew Carnegie

All thinking men are atheists. — Ernest Hemingway

Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. — George Bernard Shaw

Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile. — Kurt Vonnegut

I believe in God, only I spell it Nature. — Frank Lloyd Wright

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. — Denis Diderot

A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows. — Samuel Clemens

The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life. — Sigmund Freud

The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. — Ferdinand Magellan

Not only is there no god, but try getting a plumber on weekends. — Woody Allen

It’s an incredible con job when you think about it, to believe something now in exchange for something after death. Even corporations with their reward systems don’t try to make it posthumous. — Gloria Steinem

Founding Fathers on Religion

Jerry you and Bagdad Bob are fun I must say... I do get a kick out of you 2...

Jesus said if you believe in your heart that he is GOD You will be saved. Not in your head but in your heart.

You and Bagdad Bob have your belief's set in your heads and in your hearts...

No man has a free well. for the will of a man is directed by his thinking not his will. So a mans will is lock up and healed captive by his thinking. Any man can be deceived at any point in his life. We are all subject to deception.

Every man thinks in his head he is a good person and deceives him self in his own pride. What is true is that Every man on the face of the earth is a lair, a thief, an adulterer in there heart and a blasphemer. But men can not look
in God's mirror and admit these facts So he deceives him self one more time day after day... I'm not so bad. I'm a good person

If a man can look at himself in God's mirror and see he is blind naked and dead in his sin... And cry out to GOD at that point A man can find grace form GOD and forgiveness. as Jesus said your shall known the truth and the truth shall set you free. In another place he said my sheep hear my voice and fallow after me.

Believe these facts or not they still stands. If you have ever told a lie. Your a Lire.
If you have ever stoled anything. Even a paper clip your a thief.

By our own words we are what we are...

God understands us better then we think he does. Thats why Jesus died for us. Because we could not save our selfs.

Best

Ron

Originally Posted by Ron Bibler

Thats why Jesus died for us.

As did his brothers Juan, Julio, Jorge.

By the way, Jesus is pronounced Hay-Zeus or Hey-Zeus.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

As did his brothers Juan, Julio, Jorge.

By the way, Jesus is pronounced Hay-Zeus or Hey-Zeus.

Its all in your head Jerry...

Best

Ron

Originally Posted by Ron Bibler

Its all in your head Jerry...

Ron,

You are a good example of what is being talked about, and why this stuff keeps coming up.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Ron,

You are a good example of what is being talked about, and why this stuff keeps coming up.

No Jerry I just pointed out these facts...

No man has a free well. for the will of a man is directed by his thinking not his will. So a mans will is lock up and healed captive by his thinking. Any man can be deceived at any point in his life. We are all subject to deception.

Every man thinks in his head he is a good person and deceives him self in his own pride. What is true is that Every man on the face of the earth is a lair, a thief, an adulterer in there heart and a blasphemer. But men can not look
in God's mirror and admit these facts So he deceives him self one more time day after day... I'm not so bad. I'm a good person...

These are facts...

Best

Ron

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
The signers of the Declaration of Independence were a profoundly intelligent, religious and ethically-minded group. Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers, and many more were the sons of clergymen. Other professions held by signers include lawyers, merchants, doctors and educators. These individuals, too, were for the most part active churchgoers and many contributed significantly to their churches both with contributions as well as their service as lay leaders. The signers were members of religious denominations at a rate that was significantly higher than average for the American Colonies during the late 1700s.

" I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men."
Benjamin Franklin
The religion of Benjamin Franklin, founding father

You can rail against "religion" all you like and I will join you but you're still a lousy interpreter.

That verse is not that tough if you pay attention.

But I seriously doubt you have the courage to give your preconceived notions a second thought.

Most people read the bible to reinforce their opinions rather than make an attempt to understand what the Author/author actually meant.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

The religion of Benjamin Franklin, founding father

That is your link.

Your forgot to read the first line. Like many "christians" you use selective reading to ignore the truth.

"Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult. "

"
Deism - Deism has no church and no official organization, hence, it is not considered a religion. It is more a reason-based view of religion in general. Deism is sometimes referred to as a religious philosophy or a religious outlook. In general, Deism did not see Christ as the Son of God, did not believe in the Trinity, had no strong belief in miracles, and had no belief in atonement or resurrection. The Bible was not considered “sacred text” among most Deists, although most Deists were (like Franklin) Christian-friendly.
"

Religion and the Founding Fathers
Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Ron,

You are a good example of what is being talked about, and why this stuff keeps coming up.

Ron,

Don't feel alone, Michael L. is right there with you as a good example of what is being talked about and why this stuff keeps coming up and continuing.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Ron, Don't feel alone, Michael L. is right there with you as a good example of what is being talked about and why this stuff keeps coming up and continuing.

Its good to see that you are in the mix with us Jerry... We are all men under the bondage of Sin.

The only thing that has Michael and I set apart is we have found a place of grace on our knees before GOD Acknowledging our Sin-full state.

Finding that the blood of Christ has atonement for us.

Best

Ron

"Your forgot to read the first line. Like many "christians" you use selective reading to ignore the truth."

No Jerry, I copied of one of thousands (?) of his sayings, just as Aaron did.
I was only showing that a few cut and pastes do not reveal all of a persons thoughts. Please note also that I did include the link back to the source.

As for " selective reading".
Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
" who did believe in one god"

But I must say, this is far better that insults and name calling.

To All Concerned:

Please do not make me post an exhaustive compendium on this subject. I certainly can, but this is not the forum for it.

Because I was reared in an extended family of flaming conservative fundamentalists I have made a life-long and in-depth study of the subject. My college degree is in philosophy. Should any of you have a sincere desire, coupled with the actual knowledge, to continue this discussion with me in earnest, feel free to contact me via email.

If your intent is to attempt to support fundamentalist religious "thought" be prepared for an education - free of charge.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

To All Concerned:

Please do not make me post an exhaustive compendium on this subject. I certainly can, but this is not the forum for it.

Because I was reared in an extended family of flaming conservative fundamentalists I have made a life-long and in-depth study of the subject. My college degree is in philosophy. Should any of you have a sincere desire, coupled with the actual knowledge, to continue this discussion with me in earnest, feel free to contact me via email.

If your intent is to attempt to support fundamentalist religious "thought" be prepared for an education - free of charge.

I very truly, seriously, absolutely, undeniably understand quite clearly everything I was already leaning toward.

As in ....Your Opinion. If you think of where we live or should I say the universe we live in and how it, or should I say anything, actually appeared from nothing from nowhere one can only come to the conclusion that some way, some how, everything is possible.

Something, somewhere, somehow created something from nothing and then of course the question is............how did that something get created.

Not everything is as cut and dry as you want to believe. There is not always an answer to everything.

Close your eyes and try to imagine nothing. You cannot. Matter, a void, a solid, a liquid etc If you see black, it is something. If you see red from like coming through your eye lids it is interfering with your thought of nothing.

The human mind cannot think of nothing. It is totally impossible.

Something, somewhere, somehow created all of this and that something had to have always been here because you cannot create something from nothing.

All of that is to great for the human mind to contemplate and come up with any kind of answer so their answer will be................God. Whether they wish to believe it or not or have been talked into fearing any other answer for whatever reason or just needed something solid in life to believe in so they could escape what was happening in their life......They chose to and do believe in God....The supreme being......The beginning of all of this.....the always and everlasting.

No there is no scientific answer to how any of this came into being. The big bang??? It could have been part of it but how did the big bang come about from nothing and if it wasn't nothing then what was it and where did it come from.

There is no answer. God gives humans the answer. Why would anyone want to take that away from them.

No Aaron. You cannot give anyone an answer or education about creation. No one has or will ever have the answer to that or can educate anyone on the answer to that. Life long study??? Life long study of what??? Do you know how all this started??? I think not.

Was there a Jesus??? I do believe so. Was he the son of the creator of all this???? That my friend is an absolute yes. We all are in a round about way even if it took millions or billions or trillions of years to come about we are all an off spring of what initially created all of this. . Was he actually created directly by God or the creator of all this for a divine reason. That my friend is only for the believers to answer. Not me or you. That is what they choose to believe. The truth of the matter is that you or the believers do not know the physical answer to that.

Can someone heal the blind by putting their hands on ones face?????

I don't know the answer to that but again where did all of this come from ???????????????????????????????????????????????? Maybe someone can heal blindness from placing their hands on ones eyes !!!!!!!!!!


Life long study......of what????????????????????????

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

I was only showing that a few cut and pastes do not reveal all of a persons thoughts.

Got it.

I thought you had tipped to the dark side.

TM:
"...I would like to beg you dear Sir, as well as I can, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer." -Rainer Maria Rilke, 1903 in Letters to a Young Poet

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

TM:
"...I would like to beg you dear Sir, as well as I can, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer." -Rainer Maria Rilke, 1903 in Letters to a Young Poet

Now that is pretty funny. Ted has actually read that

Careful with all that reading stuff. You may go into overload.

Careful with all that reading stuff. You may go into overload.

TM: That happened about 40 years ago . . .

Quote:

Careful with all that reading stuff. You may go into overload.

"TM: That happened about 40 years ago . . .

Pass that doob this way, please . . ."
That explains a few things.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Quote:

Careful with all that reading stuff. You may go into overload.

"TM: That happened about 40 years ago . . .

Pass that doob this way, please . . ."
That explains a few things.

RC: Perhaps, but what will you do with the information?

Originally Posted by BAGDAD BOB

TM:
"...I would like to beg you dear Sir, as well as I can, to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer." -Rainer Maria Rilke, 1903 in Letters to a Young Poet

I must say Bagdad Bob That is off the wall...

No point and no return...

Best

Ron

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

If your intent is to attempt to support fundamentalist religious "thought" be prepared for an education - free of charge.

I wonder if you could define what "fundamentalist religious "thought"" is.

I'm am certain someone as arrogant as your self really does believe that he has it all figured out.

I for one have no doubt that one day your will be forced to face reality.

I suspect you will be quite surprised.

Good luck with your present course.

I wonder if you could define what "fundamentalist religious "thought"" is.

I'm am certain someone as arrogant as your self really does believe that he has it all figured out.

I for one have no doubt that one day your will be forced to face reality.

I suspect you will be quite surprised.

Good luck with your present course.

ML: An initiate may mistake arrogance for experience. As I said before, I welcome all intelligent discourse on this subject, just not here. This is not the place.

So then, for my last post on this thread:

1. I certainly do not have "it" all figured out. Life is one big question mark consisting of many questions. It is the journey through the questions that makes it interesting - not the answers.

2. Reality is whatever you believe it to be. Yours is significantly different than mine.

3. I like surprises.

4. There is no such thing as luck, unless you mean the kind one makes for himself.