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  1. #1
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Mind boggling......over $75. Bill the home owners after the fact.

    Could you imagine if there was some type of clerical error and the family did pay the fee but the fire department let the house burn down over erroneous info?

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    I smell a lawsuit!

    I don't know how the firefighters could stand there in good conscience did nothing.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Yep, it really is sad. It was all over the news last night. The town has it written into their township ordinance that the VFD is not to provide services to anyone outside of the city limits unless they pay the $75 fee. The local news said that the family had not paid the fee in two years and that the city law is written to "just be fair" to those that have paid the fee!

    It is very sad.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    If the fire department agrees to put out any fire regardless of payment, then there is no incentive for homeowners to pay the fee before hand. The house that burned is outside the response area of the fire department. The homeowner did not pay the modest fee for 2 years in a row. He was betting he would not have a fire and the fire department would help him even though he did not pay. He lost the bet.

    It costs money to maintain a fire department. Even with an all volunteer staff, costs are high just to purchase and maintain equipment. A single fire truck costs about 1/2 million. Helmet, boots, jacket, and pants for a single firefighter, about $500. All fire department equipment costs double or triple what a homeowner version costs because of certification. A standard ladder is not acceptable. Must be a fire department approved ladder for 3x the cost.

    Home owners insurance fees are based on ratings issued by the insurance companies to fire departments. The rating is based on a number of factors including # of paid staff, # of trained volunteers, size of response area, number of trucks, type of trucks, hydrant spacing, water flow, response times, equipment on trucks, response time of neighboring fire departments, training records, etc.

    Putting the wet stuff on the red stuff seems easy from an outsiders viewpoint. Continuous training for safety of the fire fighters is a big commitment of volunteers and paid alike. Are you willing to risk you life at any time of the day for anybody? Anytime, literally. Are you willing to train at least one weekend a month every month for no pay? Are you willing to enter a burning building that is likely to collapse on your head, fall through a floor, deal with hazardous materials for free at 2am every single day of your life?

    The city has to pay for the purchase and upkeep of trucks and equipment. You gotta pay to play. Paid fire department response has been the case since fire departments started in the 1800's. Home owners originally paid a fee directly to the fire department before taxes were regularly collected. Home owners secured plaques to the front of the house showing which fire department they paid the fee to. There were often multiple competing fire departments in town and you chose the department you wanted to protect your home.

    Sorry for the people who lost their home. I bet fees will be paid up by the neighbors very soon.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Thats all fine and dandy, but they did respond. That in my view set a precedent.
    Would the fire department have stand by if there was a person trapped in the house under the same circumstances?

    Secondly what would have happen if this was a row house and the owner did not pay the fee and the neighbouring house caught on fire?

    What about a grass fire on neighbouring property that spreads to house and the owner has not paid?

    Like I said its lawsuit time and I hope he takes the town to the cleaners.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Maybe he wanted the insurance money instead of having a half burned old house to fix up. I didn't watch. Was it rented, or owner occupied?

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Raymond.

    You listed the dots (the bulleted points) but you did not connect the dots:
    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Thats all fine and dandy, but they did respond.

    Would the fire department have stand by if there was a person trapped in the house under the same circumstances?

    Secondly what would have happen if this was a row house and the owner did not pay the fee and the neighbouring house caught on fire?

    What about a grass fire on neighbouring property that spreads to house and the owner has not paid?
    Connect the dots you listed and you will likely see that they responded *so they could be there in case* the things you listed happened.

    Like I said its lawsuit time and I hope he takes the town to the cleaners.
    I suspect there will be a lawsuit too, I suspect the owner who did not pay the fire fee will lose, just as they should.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    One thing to remember at least here is that it is illegal for a government agency to work on private property unless specifically authorized by statute. This property was outside the city and they could not respond unless authorized by the contract when the $75 fee was paid. Kind of like not making your insurance payment but making your payment after you have a wreck. It just does not work that way.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Secondly what would have happen if this was a row house and the owner did not pay the fee and the neighboring house caught on fire?

    What about a grass fire on neighboring property that spreads to house and the owner has not paid?

    Like I said its lawsuit time and I hope he takes the town to the cleaners.
    The story mentioned the fire department ONLY responded once the fire spread to the neighbors who HAD paid the fee.

    The house that burned it outside the city limits. The city offers fire protection to people who outside their response area for people who PAY IN ADVANCE for the fire protection service. Law has been on the books for 10 years. Same thing happened 2 years ago in '08. People do not listen or learn.

    Town is not responsible for fires outside of its service area unless you pay in ADVANCE. Sorry for the people whose home burned but they did not take adequate precautions. Open fire during one of the driest summers in a while. Probably not attended. Probably did not have a hose or other means to keep the fire in the burn barrels. Did not pay for fire service for 2 years. Oh well. Expensive lesson for them.

    Hope the slackers who do not pay the very modest fee of $75 a year hear about the loss and start paying their share of the cost of a fire department instead of whinning about no one helping them or move inside the city limits and pay higher taxes to pay for the services they want.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Why not just put the fee on the municipal tax bill of the property owners every year, then they would have been covered. Too simple and the town has not excercised a standard of care in the policy decision.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Why not just put the fee on the municipal tax bill of the property owners every year, then they would have been covered. Too simple and the town has not excercised a standard of care in the policy decision.
    I was thinking the same thing Raymond.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Why not just put the fee on the municipal tax bill of the property owners every year, then they would have been covered. Too simple and the town has not exercised a standard of care in the policy decision.
    The property in question is OUTSIDE THE CITY LIMITS. The city OFFERS protection to people NEAR the city limits if they pay. The city has no jurisdiction outside the city so cannot just tack it on the property bill.

    The area could request to be annexed into the city limits and pay taxes for the services.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    The fire department's decision to let the home burn was "incredibly irresponsible," said the president of an association representing firefighters.
    "Professional, career firefighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up," Harold Schatisberger, International Association of Fire Fighters president, said in a statement. "They get in their trucks and go."

    What happens if you need the FD for a rescue such as the property owner is trapped under a tractor and he hasn't paid the $75 fee?

    Up here we pay for fire services through property taxes its universal and we have excellent FD response for a volunteer service. In my area the FD is independently rated and we receive a reduction in our home insurance fwiw.

    If our local station is out on a call there is a mutual assist call put out and stations in neighbouring towns respond with pumpers, water tankers, rescue..


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Why not just put the fee on the municipal tax bill of the property owners every year, then they would have been covered. Too simple and the town has not excercised a standard of care in the policy decision.
    The folks whose doublewide burned down lived outside of the city/town limits. They do not pay any municipal tax if they live outside of the city limits, only a county tax.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
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  16. #16
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    If the fire department agrees to put out any fire regardless of payment, then there is no incentive for homeowners to pay the fee before hand. The house that burned is outside the response area of the fire department. The homeowner did not pay the modest fee for 2 years in a row. He was betting he would not have a fire and the fire department would help him even though he did not pay. He lost the bet.

    It costs money to maintain a fire department. Even with an all volunteer staff, costs are high just to purchase and maintain equipment. A single fire truck costs about 1/2 million. Helmet, boots, jacket, and pants for a single firefighter, about $500. All fire department equipment costs double or triple what a homeowner version costs because of certification. A standard ladder is not acceptable. Must be a fire department approved ladder for 3x the cost.

    Home owners insurance fees are based on ratings issued by the insurance companies to fire departments. The rating is based on a number of factors including # of paid staff, # of trained volunteers, size of response area, number of trucks, type of trucks, hydrant spacing, water flow, response times, equipment on trucks, response time of neighboring fire departments, training records, etc.

    Putting the wet stuff on the red stuff seems easy from an outsiders viewpoint. Continuous training for safety of the fire fighters is a big commitment of volunteers and paid alike. Are you willing to risk you life at any time of the day for anybody? Anytime, literally. Are you willing to train at least one weekend a month every month for no pay? Are you willing to enter a burning building that is likely to collapse on your head, fall through a floor, deal with hazardous materials for free at 2am every single day of your life?

    The city has to pay for the purchase and upkeep of trucks and equipment. You gotta pay to play. Paid fire department response has been the case since fire departments started in the 1800's. Home owners originally paid a fee directly to the fire department before taxes were regularly collected. Home owners secured plaques to the front of the house showing which fire department they paid the fee to. There were often multiple competing fire departments in town and you chose the department you wanted to protect your home.

    Sorry for the people who lost their home. I bet fees will be paid up by the neighbors very soon.
    If one does not want the job of a fire fighter then one should find another job.

    No offense to you Bruce but this every cop and every fireman and every military man etc is a hero ....well yeah when they become a hero. WHEN they become a hero.

    As far as risking your life money or no money should not be the factor.

    Hmmm. I am not going to get my 3% cost of living raise...I am just gonna watch the house burn.

    The police departments that continuously hired cope year after year after year thru the good times try to scare the hell out of the general public and say..."well I guess you folks are going to have to pay property taxes so we can keep our jobs. After all, what is a life worth?"

    When does it become the blurred line when one puts out a fire, saves a life, saves some property, save some neighbors property.

    Personally I think the guys are all asses for going to the fire and then standing there watching the place burn. For Gods sakes man. Put a lean on the property so when the insurance money comes or if the property gets sold the money goes to the stupid asses. What the hell were they doing. Trying to make a point over the cost of someones home.

    Freaking ridiculous.

    To make an argument about money for the poor firefighter......get another job.

    You don't want to risk your life carrying a gun as a cop or an army troop. Get another job.

    All these hundreds of traffic cops hired as of the past good time years need to go away no. The only reason they are there because they had to be hired or the budjet money would be decreased back . I know, lets hire some more traffic cops, year after year after year for a decade. Now it's time to weed them out and it is "well, how much is a life worth. No money, no cops. No money for teachers....work it out. No money for a new 500,000 fire truck....fix the old one.

    Stop with the "do you know how much it costs and the risk of life involved."

    No offense Bruce but that is the excuse for every public servant on the planet now adays.

    Do you know how many completely volunteer fire departments there are around the country. My goodness. Folks actully willining to put there life at risk every day.

    By the way. Most do not put there life at risk everyday.

    Sorry. just hear the same thing every single day. I have literally taken a break from the news for a while.

    All the public servants on the planet yelling "raise the taxes on everyone so I can keep my job". Lets march on city hall and demand a raise and vacations and sick days and vacvation days and a wonderful retirement. Those miserable so and so's. We'll show them."

    Right past all the homes where people live that pay those folks marching on the gov demanding jobs and pay.

    Sickening. No money. No job. It cannot keep going forever.

    Private companies lay off every single day. Private companies fire folks every single day.

    Gov....better not even think of firing me or laying me off. I will show them.

    As far as the red highlight above.....what a concept. Lean the property.

    Don't take it personal Bruce. It is just bad enough hearing of the non public servants that pay the public servants are hurting. I feel sorry for the public servants but hey. Not enough revenue to keep them all...sorry. By by Some one has to go.

    Someone did not pay their fire tax. So what. Take it out of the insurance money, No insurance money then take it out of the sale of the property. Do not and I repeat, do not just let someones home burn.

    Damn it. We will show him. Teach em all a lesson. Fire every single one of those firemen that responded and did nothing. Get some one willing to work that actually cares for someone.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    News flash!!

    OK, it was just on the news again here in Nashville........

    The fireman only arrived after neighbors called them to protect their homes from the fire as it was starting to spread. When they arrived the home was already burned down to the metal frame. The news said that they arrived at a neighbors house about 30 minutes after the fire started.

    Catch 22! If the firemen had fought the fire at the home that burned, they would have been breaking the law according to the mayor of the town!

    My guess is that we will see the state Fire Marshal and the insurance folks getting involved.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    I live in the county 15 miles from the city limits and I have a fire tax on my property tax bill. It's $75 and we have two very good VD in our area. I think the county may have a problem on their hands. I'm sure the folks paid cash at the tax office but the receipt was burnt up in the fire!


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Why not just put the fee on the municipal tax bill of the property owners every year, then they would have been covered. Too simple and the town has not excercised a standard of care in the policy decision.

    From what little facts are known at this time, I suspect the city DID exercise it standard of due care.

    The city CANNOT levy that fee on the tax bill without a vote of BOTH the residents of the city AND the residents of the 'fire district' which is being created.

    Sounds to me like a vote was held and that tax bill option was rejected by the majority of the voters, and the city said 'if you pay us anyway we will respond'.

    Those people did not chose to pay.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  20. #20

    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Unfortunately, I have to agree with just about everything Bruce has written.

    In a past life, I had similar situations occur twice. Areas outside of our service area voted as to whether they wanted fire coverage- some areas voted against.

    We got a fire call rung in, and had to stand down once we were ready to go, as we found out the house was just outside of our coverage area. We did ensure everyone was out of the house before standing down. I was pissed off originally, saying we could do some good. I had a sit down with a division chief afterwards, because he could tell I was agitated. He explained that they already voted us out, and that if we responded, we would not be available for people that paid for our service (another lawsuit waiting to happen). Plus, we wouldn't be saving much, if any, of the house anyways, because of the response time. Sometimes, it's better to let things burn.

    On another one, a house torched about 15 miles from the station (out of our area), but it had caught fire during the wildfire season. At least we were allowed to respond with a brush truck on that one, to ensure the fire didn't spread to surrounding areas.


  21. #21

    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    I've got an idea,

    Perhaps there should be some law enacted in areas such as this, that the FD will respond and put the fire out, but if the homeowners opted out of coverage, they would pay for all fire supression costs involved. Paying the 75 dollar fee would be a form of insurance.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    I live in Knox County, TN, just outside the Knoxville City limits. I pay County taxes, which are about half of Knoxville City taxes.
    I pay for Rural Metro fire dept (a lot more than $75)
    I pay for my own trash pick up.
    There are certain other services that are not available to me , such as curbside brush or leaves pick up, ambulance service, etc.

    Rural Metro makes it pretty clear that they are not required to put out a fire if we do not subscribe, or if they do, they will bill us at prevailing fees. This is not the first time that the rural fire dept. watched a house burn.

    They used to drive the fire truck into the neighborhoods and go door to door collecting the money, or handing out the info. Now the bill is usually mailed.

    Its not a secret that you have to pay the fire dept. on your own. These people chose NOT to pay. I look at it as the same as those people that chose to drive without insurance, and get in a wreck. They are on their own for getting their car fixed.

    If you need a tow, and don't belong to auto club, you have to pay for a tow truck.
    If you chose not to pay your phone bill, you don't get service. Same for electric, gas and water.

    Can't say I feel very sorry for the people that didn't pay.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    I don't feel sorry for them either. $75 for fire protection and they didn't pay it. Not too smart there. The County should have an option plan in place. Pay the $75 or if you don't and we come out for a fire you pay the real cost of the service. Seems rather fair.

    www.aic-chicago.com
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    I don't feel sorry for them either. $75 for fire protection and they didn't pay it. Not too smart there. The County should have an option plan in place. Pay the $75 or if you don't and we come out for a fire you pay the real cost of the service. Seems rather fair.
    The problem is the residents are not given that option, and that is where the problem lies.

    Regardless I don't know how the firemen could stand there regardless in good conscience over $75.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    I see many problems with the "Pay for service" plans.
    For example:
    Is it the same price no matter what?
    Single wide MH on a lot is $75
    8k with 4 car garage, pool. guest house, and horse barn on 20 acres.
    How about condos, is it per condo or for all.
    Are low income/ hardship vouchers available?

    With Government services it should be, if its available for one, then its available for all.

    The City and FD should not give service to anyone outside their service area. If the City and FD wants to make the service area larger, then good.

    Another problem with paid services is, (I hesitate to say this) corruption.
    There have been Fire Fighters known to start fires.
    You don't pay, well.. can you say CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

    Another problem is Services Ala Cart
    I'll take 1 of those, 2 of that and no I don;t want any of this.
    Who will keep up with who's on first.

    Last. What will happen when the FD does respond to someone that did not pay for service? Someone will be say, "He didn't pay why should I?", or " They went to his house because he's important or because he's Purple.". Then comes "They didn't help me because I'm Purple."

    I say NO to Paid for service

    The City was wrong to even offer the option to receive service.

    We (Taxpayers in general) have to care for, feed, house, educate, and otherwise provide for illegal immigrants, at no cost to them, but we the Taxpayers are now required to pay just to receive the same service, or else we don't receive the service at all.

    Sorry, I'm starting to sound like ......you know who.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Ted,

    Most FDs are volunteer outside of metro areas. Not all of the responders are heros. Most are hard working people who want to help out their community. They give amazing amounts of time to the department for usually no recognition. Often they have to spend money of their own pockets just to make things happen.

    I was a volunteer firefighter, EMT, and rescue squad member for about 12 years. On slow years I only spent 125 hrs a year training. One year I spent 340 hours training. And had a full time 8-5 day job, wife, and kids. That is not counting the time spent responding to calls, just training. Had to buy my own uniforms and personal gear. Pay for fuel to and from training and calls. Yeah, we responded in personal vehicles.

    I helped some people during my time as a volunteer. Not a hero, just part of giving back to my community. The news story said the responding department is a volunteer organization. Lets fire the free labor and hire paid staff who will also not put out the fire because the town management says they are not allowed. No difference in the outcome. You are mad at the wrong people.

    I doubt you travel out of town and give away free home inspections. That is what you are asking the fire department to do in this case.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    It's a cold, cruel world. The choice between fire protection and a carton of cigarettes is just too much for some people. Force them all to pay or don't offer protection at all.

    I like that old army truck. They burned a lot of fuel to get out there, and $75 is a cheap deal.
    I've lived outside the fire protection boundaries. There could be 3 fire trucks sitting in a hall 7 or 8 miles away, but they are not coming.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  28. #28
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    Ted,

    Most FDs are volunteer outside of metro areas. Not all of the responders are heros. Most are hard working people who want to help out their community. They give amazing amounts of time to the department for usually no recognition. Often they have to spend money of their own pockets just to make things happen.

    I was a volunteer firefighter, EMT, and rescue squad member for about 12 years. On slow years I only spent 125 hrs a year training. One year I spent 340 hours training. And had a full time 8-5 day job, wife, and kids. That is not counting the time spent responding to calls, just training. Had to buy my own uniforms and personal gear. Pay for fuel to and from training and calls. Yeah, we responded in personal vehicles.

    I helped some people during my time as a volunteer. Not a hero, just part of giving back to my community. The news story said the responding department is a volunteer organization. Lets fire the free labor and hire paid staff who will also not put out the fire because the town management says they are not allowed. No difference in the outcome. You are mad at the wrong people.

    I doubt you travel out of town and give away free home inspections. That is what you are asking the fire department to do in this case.
    No

    I agree and appreciate everything you are saying with the exception of the last sentence.

    The firemen are getting paid already. Someone or a couple folks had it right in the posts above. There should be no choice in paying. If you live in the county and not city then there should be a charge on your taxes that goes to the fire dept.

    I heard a story on the news a week back. It talked of ambulances that are the fire depts that are already paid for by the tax payer as well as the EMTs. If someone is in the local area and the ambulance is freed up the fire dept sends the ambulance and EMTs out to get you. Depending on the hospital they take you to and the severity of your injury it will cost you 2500 at the least up to 4500 dollars for the quick care and ride.....................................And the tax payer and all other tax payers already paid for the truck and EMTs

    Sorry.......I don't get it. I guess I am some thick fool but I just don't get it. It's paid for already. Someone calls the fire dept and the ambulance is sitting there with the EMTs. Send them out and be done with it. Even if the person in need has insurance......so what. Why charge the insurance company driving insurance costs up................It is already paid for.

    To let someones home burn to the ground and maybe just maybe someone inside that fell or was sleeping.................................They should all be fired. Waht if that person hit hard times. Gee, now I guess he would really be in hard times now, huh.

    No freaking home for him and his family to live in. Oh well. I guess the tax payers will just pay for that

    There is no good reason at all.

    The pay scale of fire fighters, police, teachers, county workers, city workers, state workers, gov workers have all climbed, which are all paid for by tax payers, has grown in such a rate since I was a kid compared to almost any private company wages and benefit packages for similar jobs it is insane and then all anyone ever hears is how poorly the PUBLIC servants are paid.....ONLY by the public servants. That safe city job. Sure they use to not make out as well as the private sector but they were safe with good benefits and when they retired they would be taken care of half way decently. They had their cost of living raises. Sometimes those cost of living raises used to be suspended in hard times......................I wonder why.

    I had a couple friends joined the police force when we were young. I used to think how crazy they were to slap a gun on their side for that 15 to 18,000 starting pay.......................................Boy how the pay scales and benefits have changed. How about the minimum of 3 to 4 times that now. Now everyone is running to be a cop or fireman and such. Shoot, we aint got nuttin to fret about. They will just raise taxes and we will be employed for ever and raise taxes and raise taxes and raise taxes and raise taxes.

    Your highlighted red above

    and they are looking for recognition?.....it was their choice to do so.......that is what they wanted to do. Gee, and the wages and bennies aren't bad either and look at that retirement. I get to do what I always wanted when I was a kid, get paid well in doing so and get taken care of for the rest of my breathing life. Life cannot be much better.

    Sorry Bruce....I just watched some early news before seeing your response


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Ted,

    Very interesting points but I do need to chime in a bit.

    As far as the ambulance/fire department billing for care and services. Your taxes pay for the public safety infrastructure. Your taxes pay for those services to be ready to respond 24/7. The billing occurs for the actual service rendered. It is no different that water, sewer and in many cases electricity. Your city taxes help pay for those infrasctructures but you still pay a monthly bill as well. Of course, every city/county and municipaliy is set up different so I can't speak for everyone.

    As far as the comments on the firefighters. Look, I bet they were none too happy about the situation but have to follow orders. Don't make them out to be the bad guys in this. You can direct that to the city and county for not having an agreement in place( many do) or the city leaders for the rules they set in place. Maybe, place some of the blame on the county residents who probably at one time or another voted down a tax have service provided to there county.

    I am a firefighter and paramedic(going on 20 years). As far as fires are concerned, we all love to fight fires at any chance we get and those guys were probably no different. The actually guys(and gals) on the engines are probably just as pissed as everyone else.

    The vast majority of fire departments are volunteer as Bruce stated. Some big city departments pay very well due to everything from cost of living to call volume. But you would actually be surprised at some of the pay scales. Outsides those big metro areas, firefighters are starting anywhere from the mid 20's to the low 40's per year. My wife is a teacher and actually gets paid more than me(she deserves every bit of it and teachers should be paid more!).

    I am not stating we should put firefighters on a pedestal or call them a hero. I am just saying put things in perspective when there is a guy or gal running into a burning building, getting blood all over them during a horrible call, having to tell a mother her baby is dead or going 24 hours on no sleep. froFrom my point of view, the volunteer firefighters are the true heros.


  30. #30
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Shapiro View Post
    Ted,

    Very interesting points but I do need to chime in a bit.

    As far as the ambulance/fire department billing for care and services. Your taxes pay for the public safety infrastructure. Your taxes pay for those services to be ready to respond 24/7. The billing occurs for the actual service rendered. It is no different that water, sewer and in many cases electricity. Your city taxes help pay for those infrasctructures but you still pay a monthly bill as well. Of course, every city/county and municipaliy is set up different so I can't speak for everyone.

    As far as the comments on the firefighters. Look, I bet they were none too happy about the situation but have to follow orders. Don't make them out to be the bad guys in this. You can direct that to the city and county for not having an agreement in place( many do) or the city leaders for the rules they set in place. Maybe, place some of the blame on the county residents who probably at one time or another voted down a tax have service provided to there county.

    I am a firefighter and paramedic(going on 20 years). As far as fires are concerned, we all love to fight fires at any chance we get and those guys were probably no different. The actually guys(and gals) on the engines are probably just as pissed as everyone else.

    The vast majority of fire departments are volunteer as Bruce stated. Some big city departments pay very well due to everything from cost of living to call volume. But you would actually be surprised at some of the pay scales. Outsides those big metro areas, firefighters are starting anywhere from the mid 20's to the low 40's per year. My wife is a teacher and actually gets paid more than me(she deserves every bit of it and teachers should be paid more!).

    I am not stating we should put firefighters on a pedestal or call them a hero. I am just saying put things in perspective when there is a guy or gal running into a burning building, getting blood all over them during a horrible call, having to tell a mother her baby is dead or going 24 hours on no sleep. froFrom my point of view, the volunteer firefighters are the true heros.
    I happen to know some firefighters and I am not bashing them or any other. I personally wood have lost my job if I was told after getting to the fire not to put it out. As far as starting pay...well low 20's and working ones way up over time there is nothing wrong with that. Again they are choosing to do this for a living. No one is forcing you or anyone.

    As far as your wife making more than you as a teacher and she should be getting paid more....in a perfect world that would be nice. I know what teachers make around here and that is nothing to cry about along with the bennies. Again, not knocking anyone but hey, the tax payers are footing the bill. They are being taxed on it. It is kind of tough to complain to a government about wanting more and more and more when it is the people that comprise the gov and they are footing the bill. I am just not in the minds eye of everyone has to start in the mid 40's and up for any job. I am inclined to think that as in every start up job work your way up. Not start above the general public and then work your way up.

    A friend of mine works as a teacher for the private sector.When he worked as a gov teacher he made far more and benefits were also far greater. Everyone wants to start out at 50 or above now adays for stepping out the college door into the work place. I say....for what. They have not worked for anything yet to prove themselves. 4 years in school.....oh well. Now lets see what you are worth and then we will discuss future money.

    Just like respect. It is earned. Just like recognition in your work. It is earned. As far as any public servant living fat and happy off of the general public and then wanting everything else on top of it......I say step out in to the non gov working world and see have far demands go.

    Again. This is in general and not directed at any particular individual and especially not you or your wife. Like the Presidents often say. The buck stops here. Well, when it comes to my pocket the bucks stops here not in the Presidents pocket. We are slowly heading in a direction that has all been to familiar from the past countries around the world where to many social programs and to much money and benefits for public servants will lead to a countries collapse. I am sure you noticed I said to many and to much. There has to be social programs and there has to be public servants but I believe we may have already stepped over the line in programs and pay to sustain for much longer. Pretty soon it will be the public servants only that will be taken care of in life. No one else will be able to afford it.

    And on a last note

    That firefighter that did not point a hose on that house.....there may have been someone in there. If not there...the next one. I think the firefighters would sleep a lot better knowing they found out than standing there with there arms crossed.

    I also think the volunteer firefighters are the true heroes.

    That Firehouse Ambulance was in California in a overpriced big city where everything was already paid for. That was a joke. 2500 to 4000 after they are already paid for.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    I look at this to be just about the same as not paying for your insurance.


  32. #32
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    we have Volunters here in Kansas with a fee paid to the County of $250.00 no one here pays it.

    Yet, any fire wether is be House or grass fire the respond and put out the fire. Its there job, just like City police, County Sherriff, or State Police is to serve and Protect.

    Fire department was called to the fire and refused to respond until the Neighbor called. Once responding they should have controled the burn no matter how far gone.

    Our volunters also rely on there neighbors help in time of need, I see this going to the Supreme Court.

    Would be when is due deligents of the Fire Dept. is exercised in responding to the Fire Call and why is there no other depts. available.

    Yes our Volunters take all the necessary training on there Vacation time to be up to date.

    The State Fire Marshall here would investigate why they did not respond at all. Including dismembering the Fire Dept. and Start a new one, and fining the City on there tacks of fear.


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    There are so many problems with the policy of limited responce based on who paid.

    If a neighbors house (who did pay the fee) was on fire, the FD would respond. What if the fire then spread to someones house that did not pay the fee, will the FD just watch?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  34. #34
    Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    We the citizens do not pay the required fee here, yet they still respond and put out the fire.

    It is the right thing to do.

    Just like everytime a firefighter or policeman are killed in the line of duty, we must here it over and over again.

    They chose that profession to be in by their own choice, it is not our responsibility to take care of the family left behind. The insurance pays out of the benefits, and we add to it. come on!

    The City and the Fire Deptment failed in the protect and serve, forget the fee. Charge it to the Insurance Company, or the Mortgage company, who gives a **** about some dumb ass fee.


  35. #35
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    I don't feel sorry for them either. $75 for fire protection and they didn't pay it. Not too smart there. The County should have an option plan in place. Pay the $75 or if you don't and we come out for a fire you pay the real cost of the service. Seems rather fair.
    Just last week here, cost to put out a burning woodshed, the resident had been burning trash without a permit - $5200.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  36. #36
    Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Burn Permit &1.00 per year


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    The firemen are getting paid already.
    No, the fire fighters are not getting paid already. They are VOLUNTEER. They are not getting paid. The people whose home burned did NOT pay taxes. They live OUTSIDE the tax base of the fire department. They did not pay taxes and they did not pay the $75 fee for fire insurance.

    If you think fire departments cost too much and PAID firefighters earn too much money that is fine and I have no problem with that. You are mudding the waters with your opinions not pertinent to the question at hand.

    The UNPAID VOLUNTEER firefighters did what the boss told them to do. Notice that Scott P said the the firefighters did not respond until 1/2 hour after fire stated. 911 dispatch gets the call and makes the decision to send out the firefighters. The fire fighters did not even know there was a fire for 1/2 hour. Not until they were dispatched to the protect the adjoining property did they even know there was a fire.

    A mobile home that has been burning for 1/2 hr, there is nothing left to save. Notice Scott P mentioned when the FD arrived the trailer had burned to the metal supports.

    If you think ambulance rides cost too much, that is also fine. It is a complaint against the entire medical cost system. In my area an ambulance ride costs $250 and $400. You might have too many zeros on your data from your friend. $250 for Basic life support (EMT) and $400 for Advanced life support (paramedic). Paramedics have additional training and are allowed to perform additional medical procedures that EMTs are not allowed. Primarily push drugs.

    Most fire fighters drool at the chance to get in the shiny truck with flashing lights and race to the scene. They want to don their turnout gear, pull on the SCBA, and staring pumping water. Boss man said stand down. They did what the boss said. As a self-employed person, you have gotten used to making your own decisions. People who are not self-employed are trained to listen to the boss or they no longer get to work there. Particularly if they are volunteers. Follow the rules are go home.

    Watch the video again. Look at the faces of the fire fighters. Do they look happy that they are standing around and not being allowed to fight the fire? Be mad at the town management for the way they run their town.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  38. #38
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    No, the fire fighters are not getting paid already. They are VOLUNTEER. They are not getting paid. The people whose home burned did NOT pay taxes. They live OUTSIDE the tax base of the fire department. They did not pay taxes and they did not pay the $75 fee for fire insurance.

    If you think fire departments cost too much and PAID firefighters earn too much money that is fine and I have no problem with that. You are mudding the waters with your opinions not pertinent to the question at hand.

    The UNPAID VOLUNTEER firefighters did what the boss told them to do. Notice that Scott P said the the firefighters did not respond until 1/2 hour after fire stated. 911 dispatch gets the call and makes the decision to send out the firefighters. The fire fighters did not even know there was a fire for 1/2 hour. Not until they were dispatched to the protect the adjoining property did they even know there was a fire.

    A mobile home that has been burning for 1/2 hr, there is nothing left to save. Notice Scott P mentioned when the FD arrived the trailer had burned to the metal supports.

    If you think ambulance rides cost too much, that is also fine. It is a complaint against the entire medical cost system. In my area an ambulance ride costs $250 and $400. You might have too many zeros on your data from your friend. $250 for Basic life support (EMT) and $400 for Advanced life support (paramedic). Paramedics have additional training and are allowed to perform additional medical procedures that EMTs are not allowed. Primarily push drugs.

    Most fire fighters drool at the chance to get in the shiny truck with flashing lights and race to the scene. They want to don their turnout gear, pull on the SCBA, and staring pumping water. Boss man said stand down. They did what the boss said. As a self-employed person, you have gotten used to making your own decisions. People who are not self-employed are trained to listen to the boss or they no longer get to work there. Particularly if they are volunteers. Follow the rules are go home.

    Watch the video again. Look at the faces of the fire fighters. Do they look happy that they are standing around and not being allowed to fight the fire? Be mad at the town management for the way they run their town.
    Bruce, relax. I saw the ambulance ride cost over a couple of days on the news. It was in California. Yes the costs were mid 2,000s to mid 4,000s and not a private Ambulance. It was the departments ambulance and EMT that, yes, they were already paid for.

    As far as the fire or anyone remotely like it anywhere.

    If they were all volunteer then I salute them. The equip was already paid for as well as the gas and maintenance for it. That makes it even worse. The *volunteer* fire fighters take a ride on a call for a fire. The equipment is paid for and they are already there.

    There boss tells them to do nothing

    The story only gets worse.

    I did look at the faces. The boss should be replaced.

    As far as not paying taxes or the fee.....maybe they couldn't. It is hard times right now and has been for a couple of years in any country of the world and there is a lot of that going around. 10% unemployment does not count the self employed folks out of work.Now the are really up ***** creek.

    I am not muddying waters about anything. Just stating real life. And in most of the country. Outside the cities and metro areas a very large part of the country is volunteer fire fighters.


  39. #39
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    OK, now lets look at it this way.
    What if the fire chief said "go ahead guys and put it out". Then a firefighter was killed while putting out the house fire.
    A fire that the city ordinance said he was not supposed to be fighting.
    Now look at what all would happen.


  40. #40
    Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Apparently you Inspectors have nothing better to do than gossip like a bunch of old hens over the back fence.

    I do not have any more time to spend on the speculative gossip, unless you where one of the firemen or personally involved with the City.

    This is the last of a non working inspectors, I do 4 to 5 inspections daily, goodbye.


  41. #41
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Don't read the thread, no one forced you but yourself.
    And as for doing 4-5 inspections per day, if that were the case you wouldn't have time to read let alone post.

    Save the bull for others who are gullible!


  42. #42
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    My two cents:

    I remember back in 2001 when Tropical Storm Allison hit Houston. I had bought my house a couple of years before that had a 25 year track record of no flooding. During TS Allison, my house got a few inches of water in it. Like a dumb _ss, I didnt think insurance was needed because the house didnt have a history of flooding. End result, I paid ~15K out of pocket to remodel my house. In hindsight, should have bought the insurance. It would have been cheap.

    I see these peoples case as no different. They knew the requirement, they should have paid. No insurance???

    Tough luck. I dont have any sympathy for them. If you have ever been through a tragedy (flooding/hurricanes/etc.), its every man for themselves. Look out for number one and take the necessary precautions. They failed to do so.

    Guess what, you dont have insurance, you probably aint going to get the same care as someone with cash or good insurance. I ride a motorcycle, and I have coverage for air evacuation should I get in a really bad accident in the boonies. If I didnt, Im at the mercy of the local vet, or anyone else that cares to help me.


  43. #43
    Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Dear Raymond,

    it is 9:05 am here and I have done 1 inspection, sorry I carry tons of Electronis devices.

    Yes I do 4 to 5 Inspections a day, I do custom home building inspections to meet specifications.

    I do HUD inspections on foreclosures, while doing presale inspections for banks and home owners.

    Energy Audits for homeowners using the a loan program from the Department of Energy run by the state.

    So, I guess the canuks do not think to become versitale in this economy.


  44. #44
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    I can't help myself. I just have to wade into this one.
    Although Jerry Peck, along with many others, and I will typically disagree on many political issues, and I certainly have great respect for his depth of knowledge regarding systems, we agree on the responsibility and actions taken by the "town" fire department regarding a home burning outside the district's responsibilities.

    #1 Where is it written that all inhabitants of this great land of ours are "entitled" to fire department protection or, dare I say it, police protection? Although politicians enjoy making such claims they are nearly always incorrect when doing so. Several court cases have established that a police officer has no "legal obligation" to protect the life or property of a citizen during the commission of an action by a third party even though it is very clear to anyone present that the "citizen" is in grave danger if the police officer fails to act on their behalf. There have been many cases that have cemented this firmly into law as a precedent. I can think of one here in Winston-Salem about 25 years ago but I won't go into the details unless asked to do so. The perpetrator went to an insane asylum while they buried many of his victims that were killed at a road intersection over a period of hours while the County deputies looked on from a position of relative safety.
    That being said...one has to understand that no one is entitled to public safety activity on their behalf EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE PAYING TAXES WITHIN THAT GOVERNMENTAL DISTRICT for that purpose.

    #2 As Jerry and so many have stated, the home owners resided outside the governmental boundaries of the town and its regulations. They chose to live there and, apparently, they chose NOT to be included in funding the local municipal fire department. THEY HAD A RIGHT TO MAKE THAT CHOICE. THEY ALSO MUST LIVE, OR DIE, WITH THEIR CHOICE. That is their freedom to do so as a result of where they live. No governmental body regulates their district, ergo, they can save money on fire protection. Insurance companies, when they agree to provide coverage, adjust their policy rates based on the availability of FIRE PROTECTION. The residents of the county don't support a fire department for that service with a fee or taxes but they pay higher property fire insurance premiums. It evens out, so to speak.

    #3 When the colonials first noticed, perhaps in Philadelphia where the concept of a "fire brigade" may have first begun, that a body of men and equipment were needed to put out a fire some enterprising people offered their services to the local inhabitants as a "for profit" enterprise. Yes, there were buildings and homes that were not served by the private enterprise simply because they had not paid the fee for service. It's simple, some owners wanted protection and others were willing to "roll the dice", so to speak. Where buildings were in such close proximity that it made logical sense that "all" of the structures within a certain area should be protected by such a service the local governmental body either formed volunteer groups or funded a department within the town and charged them with the grave responsibility for life and property.

    Before anyone makes claims of entitlement to services they should check with the statutes governing such service responsibilities.
    This "baby-boomer" generation, and even worse for the ones that follow, have become so expecting of services that they have grown accustomed to others assuming responsibilities on their behalf for services which they may purchase but, according to legal precedents, are certainly not entitled.

    Sad as it is, the fire department had no choice but to perform exactly as they did. It must have been difficult for each one of them to watch the anguish of the family, except when they were cussing them, and witness such a loss. Their hands were tied, not only by the department but by the inaction of the negligent homeowner.

    It seems that many readers of this sad event would chastise the town and its employees for not taking on responsibilities for fighting the fire. Those who hold the firefighters or the town officials in contempt are using only their heart and not their heads. Thankfully, at least for the moment, we remain a country governed by "law rather than men". If not so, each of us could be held responsible for events regardless of our involvement or contractual responsibilities by the governor on a whim.
    Our magnificent country retired that enslavement when we defeated King George and Great Britain, with the help of the French, of course. They haven't been much help since, however.


  45. #45
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Sorry to be heartless but those of you that said they should have put out the fire and charged him the $75 are not thinking this through.

    The only way to put a fair price on this would be to take the total amount (budget that includes the amortized value of the equipment, firetruck, firehouse, 911 system...etc) that it takes to operate the FD for one year, and then divide that by the average # fires the have to put out per year and then bill him for that amount. He may need to pay several thousands of dollars.
    Run the #s. (this is probably pretty close) Say A house has a 1:500 chance of burning/year, that means that you pay the $75x500 =$37,500...this is what he should pay--IMO

    How many of you would feel that your E&O insurance company should pay a $10,000 claim for your cheap, uninsured competitor...as long as he will pay the $1,500 annual fee... after the fact?


  46. #46
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Morrison View Post
    Sorry to be heartless but those of you that said they should have put out the fire and charged him the $75 are not thinking this through.

    How many of you would feel that your E&O insurance company should pay a $10,000 claim for your cheap, uninsured competitor...as long as he will pay the $1,500 annual fee... after the fact?
    Excellent analogy!
    You really bring it home with that one.

    And, yes, folks, it is a good parallel for comparison.


  47. #47
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    I've got an idea,

    Perhaps there should be some law enacted in areas such as this, that the FD will respond and put the fire out, but if the homeowners opted out of coverage, they would pay for all fire supression costs involved. Paying the 75 dollar fee would be a form of insurance.
    Paying the $75 is their insurance policy. As other said, you can't get insurance after you total your car.

    The city would be opening itself up for law suites if they had responded and put the fire out. You put the fire out for this address and they hadn't paid, but you didn't put it out for this address. As long as they are consistent in how they implement the policy, there is no legal issue. Break their own policies and legal constraints just once and they are open for all kinds of ambulance chasing lawyers.


  48. #48
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    Post Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Study the history of fire protection and fire companies in the United States, and you will discover some very interesting things, such as fire insurance companies who maintained their own fire departments, and responded only to protect the property of insureds. How many fire departments supported by taxes would survive if the taxes were never paid? How long could you continue to pay your bills if your clients never paid you?

    Randall Aldering GHI BAOM MSM
    Housesmithe Inspection
    www.housesmithe.com

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    I am a retired professional firefighter. Ted's comment that the responding firefighters should be fired for not suppressing the fire is ridiculous. They were simply following orders from superior officers (their bosses) who were following orders from the mayor, or city council (their bosses). Not following the orders of superiors is insubordination and grounds for dismissal where I come from, and can also get you killed on a fire scene. No firefighter I have ever known (and I have known a lot) would ever stand by and watch the loss of life or property unless ordered to do so or where conditions made it to risky to attempt it. As for the large salaries of firefighters and police officers, although I made a comfortable living I was never in the upper tax bracket and I always worked a part time job. These people risk their lives on a daily basis to keep you and you families safe, not to get rich but for the satisfaction of being able to make a difference. Sadly this county likes to make the people who entertain us (actors, atheletes, etc.) our heros and pay them insane salaries. Bottom line is this homeowner chose to gamble and lost, luckily it was only material things and not a loss of life. I bet they pay that $75.00 fee on the new house they build, provided they had payed their insurance permiums.

    Galen L. Beasley
    Inspections Supervisor
    Housing Authority of Kansas City MO

  50. #50
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Lets clear things up. For any of you that have known what i write on here over the years at the very least half is said to get thoughts going and to pull things out of folks that would normally never get involved in discussion.

    To make it perfectly clear of what I think on the subject matter. The first thing that comes to mind is heroes. I have very few and I think what most think of heroes and how they are defined is diminishing the real heroes in life.

    Do I think that a responder to a fire is a hero, not unless he becomes one. Not at all. Do I think anyone that serves this country as a cop, firefighter, serviceman etc is automatically a hero, not at all. They chose a lifes work to pursue and to call everyone of them a hero diminishes from the true heroes that went into that fire knowing someone was in there or as he was told, thought someone was in there....absolutely.

    Do I think a service man that enlists and puts himself in harms way is a hero, no. Do I think the guy that risked getting shot, blown up, captured etc to save another is a hero, absolutely. I guess I am one of those but do not consider myself one.

    Do I think that the firefighters boss, maybe not on that fire because of the type of home and how long it was burning, but on other homes where firefighters have responded and the boss said, nope you are doing nothing, not knowing the individuals circumstances on not paying the lousy fee I think the boss or his bosses or what ever it takes should be reprimanded at the least. This poor schmuck could have fallen on very hard times. You know the type. The kind of person that means well and had a bout of circumstances hit that kept him from paying. He may have wanted to but was barely keeping his family afloat. Oh wait. I know some of them. The kind that did everything they could but it just was not enough to pull what ever off they were trying (hired with the wrong company) (interest rates on his debt thru the roof because that is what the card companies did to so many)


    Lets cut this short because I am pissing myself off. There are folks out there and one could be you brother or neighbor. His house starts on fire. Because of the hard times that hit and he just has not been able to pull himself back out from under yet and did not pay the fee because he could not. The fire folks show up at his door at the end of the drive. They look at some ignorant list that tells nothing other than not paying a stinking fee. They let the home roar to a full blaze and then watch it burn itself out from its intensity and now stands just a chimney and all because he was not on the payer list. Now he is not just on hard times but everything in the world that the family owns along with precious the cat is gone....not even a roof over their head...the worse part....they watched the fireman watch the fire burn their roof over their head to the grown.

    WHO WOULD THAT TEACH A LESSON TO YOU BUNCH OR ARROGANT UNFEELING SELFISH PEOPLE. (whoo hoo, did I just say that) ALl YOU CAN THINK ABOUT IS WELL HE SHOULD HAVE PAID. OH, YOU HAVE TO THINK OF THE POOR FIREMAN HEROES. GIVE IT UP. THEY WERE THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PULL THE HOSES OUT AND START BLASTING. COME ON. I KNOW YOU GUYS GET IT. DO THEY DRIVE DOWN THE ROAD IN THEIR FIRE TRUCK AND SEE A HOME WITH FIRE BLAZING OUT A WINDOW AND CALL IN THE OFFICE FIRST TO SEE IF IT IS OK TO PUT IT OUT OR DO THEY WIP THE TRUCK OVER, PULL THE HOSES OUT AND START BLASTING. The only reason the station house should be called is to tell them they are responding to a home with flames blowing out the window and they may need back up.

    THEY ARE THERE ALREADY

    Is anyone wrong in that scenario. I personally think so. The list could have been wrong. Maybe the check past in the way of the bill coming.....YOU JUST DO NOT KNOW. YOU ARE THERE....PUT THE DAMN FIRE OUT. If there was no responce to begin with...well that is another story. But they were there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  51. #51
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Regarding Ted's explanation of a hero - RIGHT ON! A "hero", with regard to this thread, IMHO, is someone who goes above & beyond the job description when others would not, and with full knowledge of additional personal risk of injury, death or some other catastrophic consequence to himself, chooses to assist another person despite the perceived additional risk, with no expectation of additional personal enrichment. Average firefighter, policeman or soldier, not a hero, but possibly a person with genuine desire to help others for pay. Following this logic, there is no profession that is, by definition, "heroic". The "potential to be a hero" is different than "being a hero" and some professions, by their nature, have a higher "hero potential" than others and sometimes the compensation is based more on the "potental" than the "actual". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but those professions are not even on the top 10 list of dangerous professions.

    I submit that a firefighter who made a career-ending decision and fought the fire against orders, would have been "hero" to the homeowners even though they clearly should have paid the bill (or requested assistance to pay it). They were not entitled to free service.

    No offense to Captain Sullenberger; he is a highly skilled pilot, not a hero, for landing the plane in the Hudson River. I have great respect for his competence and ability to perform under stress, but I suspect he would have attempted to land that plane safely even if he were the only person on board.

    Enuf rambling for now; gotta get ready to watch Chris Wallace - should be an interesting one today.

    "the relentless pursuit of perfection"

  52. #52
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Ted, you have my vote if you decide to run for "common sense Czar".

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  53. #53
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    This thread is a good example of the different ways people process information and, using critical thinking, or not, come to different conclusions.

    Some posters clearly believe there was and remains an "inherent" obligation on the part of the firefighters from the nearby town to meet the home owner's immediate need to save as much of the property as possible, regardless of the lack of a contract. Their justification for their view arises from an inherent "social contract" between persons "with needs" and persons or institutions "with means". This "unwritten and unspoken" social contract obviously creates a "moral obligation" for "charity" towards others in need regardless of any other mitigating factors. In doing so, the poster places far less responsibility on the persons "with needs" than those "with means" and suggests that the home owner's lack of responsibility to meet their own needs results from a lack of "means". I freely admit that there are examples wherein persons with needs are unable to meet their obligations simply due to the lack of resources to do so. In this example, however, no such claim can be valid simply because the object in question is "real property" occupied by a family which owns personal property as well. If you can buy personal clothing you can pay a $75.00 annual fee to protect yourself against catastrophic loss by fire. To state otherwise is simply ludicrous.

    This opinion rooted in a "social contract" or "moral obligation" places no value on outstanding agreements with "other parties" - those persons who paid for the extended service to protect their property. Furthermore,this point of view fails to take into account how the contractual relationship with "other parties" may be negatively affected by extending services to persons "with needs" without a duly offered and accepted contract prior to need.

    As many others have stated here, there is no mandate upon an entity "offering a service" to accept a contract for service during an immediate need for the same service.
    Who among us would expect an insurance carrier to accept a contract for "replacement costs" on real or personal property during or after the loss has occurred? Yet, some posters have stated that this was an obligation placed on the fire department as a result of (a) they were called to the scene with the means to respond, (b) they were protecting the property adjacent to the home in question and (c) the fire department was offered payment of fee upon specific compliance by fighting the fire. The posters also claim that there would have been no further expense or liability to the department if they had engaged in fighting the fire and, therefore, should have done so. Without further knowledge of the legal issues involved no one can assume that the department would have not assumed greater liability or expense to engage in the fire. It is clear, and an inherent liability, that doing so would have weakened any contractual obligations for other subscribers to the same service to pay their fees in a timely manner. Anyone who fails to see this fails to see the logic of actions versus consequences.

    Obviously, it is heartbreaking to read of another's loss under such circumstances. To read that the fire station personnel responded to a threat of fire spreading to the adjacent property and made no attempt to extinguish the fire creates an emotional conflict with one's heart and mind.

    Each of us wish that the property were saved and the loss were minimized for the benefit of the occupants. The "emotional" side of our mind wishes that the home owner would have met his obligations to protect himself. The fee set for the "offered" extended service can, in no way, be regarded as exorbitant.

    Many of us have to make choices daily as to what is a need and what is not. Whether it is menu choices at the grocery or choosing to pay a health care premium, adults must take responsibility for their choices. There are many "obligations" placed upon a homeowner, a vehicle owner, etc. and a claim of "destitution" due to "hard times" is unacceptable if you are employed or have personal property that could be sold to meet a real "need". $75.00 is not a King's ransom and not having the money is a B.S. claim for any home owner with other personal property. In any event, a lack of funds was not the claim by the home owner within the report as they were on record offering to pay the fee immediately upon the need.

    So why are there differing opinions on this article? I believe some viewpoints are rooted in the poster's belief in a "social justice" to meet the needs of "everyman" equally. Such expectations may arise out of a "sense of fairness" that most of us developed as we learned to interact with other children from kindergarten through high school. By the time most children enter middle school they have a fairly well developed sense of fairness within society. Even bullies understand what is fair. They simply have determined that "fairness" doesn't apply to them, for whatever reason they determine.

    Even school children see the "unfairness" in allowing someone to "break line". In school, it is often overlooked, albeit with some prejudice towards the persons doing so, simply because seeking justice for the offense is far too laborious and, far too often, those persons who have authority, a teacher, have little interest in resolving such claims. In the adult world, the responsible members of society hold the home owner responsible for not performing his "due diligence" as a home owner/husband/father, as the case may be. If the "father" in this case began a road trip with his family without "ensuring" that the fuel tank was adequately filled who among us would find pity for him to the extent we would place a moral obligation on any passersby to meet his "need". I would hope, none. Charity yes. Moral obligation, none!

    One of the many skills that is missing in society is the ability to apply "critical thinking" to any problem or situation. This can be defined as "exercising or involving careful judgment or judicious evaluation". Over the years, I have met many people who either are unable or refrain from exercising judgment over the actions of others. Whether it is society in general or the public school system many people feel very uncomfortable making a "judgment" of others actions. Especially, when the actions of the persons in question have caused them to suffer loss when the means to avoid loss were readily available. Sometimes it is comical to read of "unwise" decisions. In this case, it clearly is not comical but tragical.

    Some believe the tragedy is in the fire department's failure to provide the "means" as a readily available solution to another's "needs". Others, myself included, find the tragedy in the home owner's failure to take timely advantage in the offered fire service in a rural area where no other fire service is available. If the home owner declined the service offered from where did he expect to receive the service "in the event of need"?

    To suggest that the firefighters had a moral obligation in this example also suggests that any other service provider with "means" would be equally obligated to provide said service "after the need for service is established". Once again, try requesting to purchase car insurance to cover damage from an accident prior to coverage. There is no difference. To ask to purchase insurance "after the need" and expect coverage can be considered criminal and comical simultaneously.

    If the home owner had a mortgage on the property he also would have been required, under contract, to maintain adequate replacement coverage in continuity, without any loss of coverage, ever. His insurance carrier, if he had one, would be fully aware of the lack or availability of emergency fire services. As such, the carrier may have required that the home owner maintain a relationship as a subscriber with said services, or not. All of this is driven either by a contractual obligation or a desire for said services, when available. In the end it is his choice to subscribe if there was no contractual requirement to do so. We don't know it all.

    Albeit less so than 50 years ago, we remain a "free society" empowered as individuals to choose for ourselves our own course of "pursuit of happiness". For many of us the choices made can, and have, resulted in negative consequences. The same is true here. I much prefer the freedom to choose my own destiny than have no choice. Freedom of choice comes with great responsibility for one's choices. The home owner in this case made "his choice" to purchase or built a home in a rural area with no emergency services provided or resulting from the tax base. To their benefit, the adjoining town offered to residents within a certain distance from city limits an emergency fire service upon payment of a relatively small fee of $75.00. Sadly, the home owner chose "unwisely". Any military man knows that Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance. The lack of action, or planning, is still a choice!

    Although many among us long for a Utopia on earth wherein "all earthly needs are met" most of us know that "it ain't gonna' happen" here. Even if some politicians confiscate all income and property and dole out what they think we need (called sharing the wealth) there will never be a Utopia on earth. There are many reasons it hasn't and will not work.

    That said, let's just be thankful that, for now, we live in the greatest country in the world where even our poor have food available to them for free. Where even the impoverished have a roof, electrical power, relatively safe water and, more often than not, can afford a color TV and a vehicle. What a country! No wonder there are millions sneaking to enter and none wishing escape. And, another freedom available, those who have no obligation to society as a result of felonious acts may leave at anytime. Bon Voyage!


  54. #54
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Well said TE.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  55. #55
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Tom......................Tom...................... .........Tom


    I believe, if you really read the posts that IF they were already there or IF they were driving by etc etc etc....not IF he paid the fee or not or IF he could not afford to pay the fee or any other ifs.

    Whether what you wrote is worthy of note it is still a bunch of blah blah blah. As a matter of fact who said anyone owes anyone else anything. I do not owe you anything. You do not oh me anything. I certainly do not owe Obama anything or the past Pres George Bush anything.

    You repeated 20 times.....If he just paid the fee. If he just paid the fee. If he just paid the fee.

    Not you me or the fireman standing there new why the fee was not paid. Did you hear what I said.

    THE FIREMEN STANDING THERE. As in....they were already there and the same time was spent there even if they were putting out the fire. Stop with all the obligation! Everyone thinks they are owed something! Moral, social contract. It is nothing but words and the reason why this country is getting so screwed up. iIt is nothing but words. Words that do this no justice.

    Let me ask you Tom. You and the family are on a Sunday drive. On that Sunday drive some moron runs you off the road. The car rolls. No one is badly injured but you are all trapped in the vehicle, the roof has come down. I see you. I just barely see you because of the growth around the vehicle but the sun bouncing off a window caught my eye. I have a pressing engagement for a rare Sunday afternoon home inspection. I have not worked in weeks. My family is waiting at home for me to bring some food home so little Johny doesn't starve to death. If I do not get to the inspection quick they will call it off and have someone else do it tomorrow.......................................... Do I stop and save you and the family or do I just keep driving, saying to myself "they are not paying my wages for today. I cannot afford to help them out right now. I have a financial obligation to someone else." or Because I am there and a sweetheart of a guy, pull over. Get a crow bar out of my vehicle and a fire extinguisher to put the gas fire that has started around your car and save your sorry ass.

    If a police officer is driving down a road where the road is in one city and just off the curb to the left is another city and someone is standing there with 10 people lined up shooting them one by one Does the police officer just drive by and say "Oh well. They don't pay taxes for my services." And the police officer keeps driving down the road eating his donuts until he gets to his hiding spot to shoot passers by with his handy dandy radar gun so he can get his quota of income for the city?!?!?!

    Does a fireman driving a fire truck with 4 other fireman in it coming back from a false alarm and see a home with flames blowing out a window on the right end of the home just keep on driving because that group of houses is out of their area and it belongs to some other city.

    Yes Tom. Just a me spouting a bunch of words but meaningful, thoughtful, righteous words. Words that put the meaning back into love thigh neighbor. Words that are not just a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo that this society can do with out.

    Critical thinking. Judicious evaluation, social contract, Destitution claim is unacceptable, if you have a home or car then sell it to meet your obligations.
    And who the heck are you that a possible claim of not having 75.00 is BS.

    Lets see

    The car so he can get to work if he finds some

    A house to have a roof over the kids head (unless you want to pay for it for him like in a hud home)

    Electricity so he can have heat for his family

    Groceries so he can feed his family

    Who the hell are you to say when and how and how much is to much before hardship strikes.

    The Firemen were there Tom. They spent as much time there as if the put the fire out. Again, I do not care if this particular individuals was some idiot with a pile of money. The next family may not be.

    Drive down the road in the firetruck. See a fire. Put the damn thing out. If in fact it is a loser with a pile of money lying around then charge him full fee for doing so. If it is a family that has hit hard times (and whether your warped mind thinks that those folks do not exist it is time to woke up) then put the fire out and the family gives you a hug and the nice fireman wipes the little girls tears away and hands her the Teddy bear he rescued, a glow comes on over the fireman's head, the town and neighbors are praising the fireman, the camera draws back and lifts up over head to capture the entire scene, the folks at home get teary eyed and soft music drifts away, the scene fades out and everyone goes to bed with a smile on their face instead of some damn legal mumbo jumbo playing over and over and over in their head that there dad that fell on hard times that is behind on the car and house and insurance is a freaking loser dead beet fool.

    This has nothing to do with liberal, democrat, conservative, republican or even the libertarian party or that guy in New York that heads up "The rent is to damn high party" or share the well bullshit session. I am against sharing the wealth but I know and understand that we do need services. I also know that if 50% of everyone's income was taken then the country would have collapsed long before it got to 50%

    This has to do with

    THEY WE THERE

    Or in some cases. THEY WERE DRIVING BY.

    Do the humane thing and do not sit on the side walk like you Tom thinking up all that moral obligation, fairness, judicial eval, social right etc etc etc etc and then when you are done thinking what an absolute ass the guy is feel real good about yourself and go home and tell the family about the ignorant ass that did not pay the stinking $75.00 fee.Because that is all you can possibly think about.

    Where were you raised Tom.

    Sorry but sometimes I just cannot control myself. Maybe you could lend me some money for my meds Tom. Then I could walk around like a Zombie thinking like you do that hardship could never hit you or that even if it did you are man enough to over come it..................**** happens Tom. Some folks are barley in their home, their car, cannot afford medical insurance etc etc etc etc I know home inspectors that have been around for 15 years and are now down sizing to make ends meet. What is their next step Tom. They become losers because they could not pull money out of the but because the market slowed so bad and there wife is ill and had to stop working, they don't pay the fee because they just did not have that extra 75.00. The illness ate all their savings. Get a grip.


  56. #56
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post

    I believe, if you really read the posts that IF they were already there or IF they were driving by etc etc etc....not IF he paid the fee or not or IF he could not afford to pay the fee or any other ifs.

    Whether what you wrote is worthy of note it is still a bunch of blah blah blah. As a matter of fact who said anyone owes anyone else anything. I do not owe you anything. You do not oh me anything. I certainly do not owe Obama anything or the past Pres George Bush anything.

    You repeated 20 times.....If he just paid the fee. If he just paid the fee. If he just paid the fee.


    The Firemen were there Tom. They spent as much time there as if the put the fire out. Again, I do not care if this particular individuals was some idiot with a pile of money. The next family may not be.

    This has to do with

    THEY WE THERE

    Do the humane thing and do not sit on the side walk like you Tom thinking up all that moral obligation, fairness, judicial eval, social right etc etc etc etc and then when you are done thinking what an absolute ass the guy is feel real good about yourself and go home and tell the family about the ignorant ass that did not pay the stinking $75.00 fee.Because that is all you can possibly think about.

    Where were you raised Tom.

    Sorry but sometimes I just cannot control myself. Maybe you could lend me some money for my meds Tom. Then I could walk around like a Zombie thinking like you do that hardship could never hit you or that even if it did you are man enough to over come it..................**** happens Tom. Some folks are barley in their home, their car, cannot afford medical insurance etc etc etc etc I know home inspectors that have been around for 15 years and are now down sizing to make ends meet. What is their next step Tom. They become losers because they could not pull money out of the but because the market slowed so bad and there wife is ill and had to stop working, they don't pay the fee because they just did not have that extra 75.00. The illness ate all their savings. Get a grip.
    Ted, I abhor trading emails with you simply because you are extremely caustic with personal epithets. One can always tell when someone has emptied their arsenal of "acceptable factoids" as they begin attacking an opponent personally.

    Your editorial critique of my missive wreaks of someone with "control" issues.

    My viewpoint was to clarify whether the fire department had any "legal" obligation to service the complaining home owner of the recent article. Had there been a threat to human life within the dwelling I might have taken a different viewpoint, but there was none.

    As to my speculation that the home owner might "afford" the $75.00, that is without question as he offered the fire chief an amount equal to that sum in an attempt to obtain services on the afternoon of the fire. So we know he had the fee in pocket.
    It's also true that so many of our populace have taken an attitude of "entitlement" and deeply believe that their "needs" are the responsibility of others. That belief goes against the "self-reliant" attitude that made this country strong in spirit and once able to defeat military foes on two or more fronts across the seas. If I fail to meet my obligations I hold no one else responsible even though I am fully aware of how politicians pushed mortgage lenders into the position we now find ourselves. No one forced me to sign any mortgage documents. It was my own choice.

    Choosing not to service a pleading home owner is a hard decisions in such a crisis as presented here. I, for one, do not desire to have to make such choices. We've all heard that "The world is not fair." It's so true.

    I read with some interest the "straw man" scenarios you have presented. This is a tactic used by both the illiterate and scholarly to achieve a claim of validity where validity would not otherwise be awarded. I prefer to use analogies that more closely parallel the incident model under discussion.

    As I understand it, Ted, were you in charge of the fire truck on that day you would have risked both manpower and equipment to preserve the burning structure of a non-subscriber. That's your position. I got it.

    My position is, especially since there was no threat to human life, I agreed with the fire chief.

    As to whether you choose to be a "good Samaritan", that's your choice as it is mine. I certainly don't feel the need to justify my altruism in this forum. Just for the record, however, I have never abandoned anyone who truly needed my help and could not help themselves.

    Ted, I don't know anyone working closely with the real estate market that is not suffering as a result of this recession, soon to be depression. In my own household, my wife of 12 years has taken a position teaching electronic medical record application use to medical providers and staff within clinics owned by our local hospital. My wife is also an R. N. Were it not for her salary our fiscal condition would be quite different than it is. Like many, we are no longer lounging in a six figure income bracket but thankful for what we have. With mortgaged rental properties for which I am responsible as well I take great interest in the well-being of my tenants. I need their rent and on time.
    When they fail to pay it in a reasonable period of time I have to take unwanted steps towards recovering my property if not the rent. Life can be hard. We all have to try to do our best with everyone with which we come into contact.

    As for "getting a grip" I am way ahead of you. I have a firm grip and am attempting to tie a knot at my present elevation on life's proverbial rope.

    I'll close this note with the firm knowledge that there is at least one person, that's you, Ted, that would risk all that they have and hope to have for a home owner who, for whatever reason, failed to protect himself in the event of a home fire. I fee better just knowing that. Thank you.


  57. #57
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    We will make this simple. I have known folks like you all my life that loves to SOUND in their writing and fabulous accomplishments how above the rest they are.

    You care about you and that need not be said. You have proved who and what you are.

    I try to keep it simple so you can try to understand but then you come back with your ignorant glory of words once again trying to put yourself on top.

    I will quote you and end this. This will show you who and what you are Tom.

    "Ted, I abhor trading emails with you simply because you are extremely caustic with personal epithets. One can always tell when someone has emptied their arsenal of "acceptable factoids" as they begin attacking an opponent personally.

    Your editorial critique of my missive wreaks of someone with "control" issues."

    The only way you have of making yourself sound of what you are not.

    You have a nice night Tom. I do not want to do anymore "editorial critiques" of your "missive wreaks" or put you anywhere near my control issues.' Are you kidding me or what. Oh wait there is more. I also don't want to get into the position of telling you I "adhor trading emails" or that I think you are "extremely caustic" with your "personal epithets" Seriously man. Do you hear yourself.

    To be honest Tom I have tears rolling down my face with hysteria over how you try to position yourself on top by trying to make it seam that your are an extremely intelligent man. To much is just that Tom, to much. You should try to pull it back a bit. It can be an extreme bore. I can see you standing in the doorway of a tenant that is three days late with his rent. Absolutely hysterical. The landlord Tom. It's killing me.

    Again, have a nice night and thank you Tom for the wonderful exchange. I truly enjoyed it.




  58. #58
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    We will make this simple. I have known folks like you all my life that loves to SOUND in their writing and fabulous accomplishments how above the rest they are.

    You care about you and that need not be said. You have proved who and what you are.

    I try to keep it simple so you can try to understand but then you come back with your ignorant glory of words once again trying to put yourself on top.

    I will quote you and end this. This will show you who and what you are Tom.

    "Ted, I abhor trading emails with you simply because you are extremely caustic with personal epithets. One can always tell when someone has emptied their arsenal of "acceptable factoids" as they begin attacking an opponent personally.

    Your editorial critique of my missive wreaks of someone with "control" issues."

    The only way you have of making yourself sound of what you are not.

    You have a nice night Tom. I do not want to do anymore "editorial critiques" of your "missive wreaks" or put you anywhere near my control issues.' Are you kidding me or what. Oh wait there is more. I also don't want to get into the position of telling you I "adhor trading emails" or that I think you are "extremely caustic" with your "personal epithets" Seriously man. Do you hear yourself.

    To be honest Tom I have tears rolling down my face with hysteria over how you try to position yourself on top by trying to make it seam that your are an extremely intelligent man. To much is just that Tom, to much. You should try to pull it back a bit. It can be an extreme bore. I can see you standing in the doorway of a tenant that is three days late with his rent. Absolutely hysterical. The landlord Tom. It's killing me.

    Again, have a nice night and thank you Tom for the wonderful exchange. I truly enjoyed it.

    To what "fabulous accomplishments" are you referring?
    I really have no idea, without sounding like I have certification as a psychologist, of which I am not, why you must be so contentious. If my choice of words to relay my message is unsatisfactory to you, I apologize. You obviously believe I have adopted a "stilted" manner of writing simply to appear "elevated" in some manner "from the rest", as you say.

    I don't get it but then it is not for me to get it. It is only needful that you have stated your feelings. So be it.

    Words are chosen simply on the basis of conveying an accurate message rather than sounding obscure or indiscriminate in my meaning.
    Although I was born and raised, or reared, to be more accurate, in North Carolina I prefer to use an expanded vocabulary. Reading helps keep the mind sharper.

    You really do sound as though you have some self esteem issues you should deal with. Well, most of us have some kind of "issues" so why should you be any different. Lord knows I have my own and I would not be calling out yours to you if you weren't making them so glaringly evident.

    I hope you feel better soon. And Ted, my saying this does not give this note any air of superiority in any way. Just take it on "face value" that I have wished you well.

    It is my belief that subscribers to this forum should feel confident in submitting their own feelings or facts based on their own data without fearing a personal assault because of their views or their personal style of writing. If any reader feels that this is a forum for personal assaults please state your opinion so that I may understand that this forum is no place for me.

    I visit this forum to learn from other experts what I do not now know and to offer opinions when opinions are requested. If I engaged in personal assaults on others I would expect to have my membership discontinued justifiably.


  59. #59
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    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Tom

    I see there is no getting to you so I will not try anymore.

    You comment of self control issues and then spout off of self esteem issues and alI I said, no matter how much rant was....................

    If they are there already or driving by then do the right thing. Pull out there hose and blast the fire a bit

    You turned it into me having self control and or self esteem issues.

    Tom, if you are seeing a doctor for control and esteem issues I can understand. I know a few folks that do and there is nothing wrong with it. You make it sound like a catchy illness. I am sure those folks love those comments as well.

    Tom, you sound like just a wonderful fella so I will continue to be kind. Please do not put people that have hit hard times into a singular category such as bullshitters. For some reason you had a hard time with that as well. You seem to have many issues so I won't try to pull anymore out.

    You are more than welcome of course to post anything you wish and I am glad you and everyone does. I may not give my all to the little folks and I am not trying to demean anyone for falling on hard times but I have an issue with folks that do not even try to understand. There are those out there that believe everyone can overcome anything with a snap of a finger or running out and taking some more courses to better themselves. That is not the real world Tom by any means. There are millions of folks out there that just cannot put it all together. They try, stumble and bumble but just do not make it. It is not bull **** Tom. It is real life. Many of those folks are smarter than us and can guide many to success but just not put it together themselves.

    Lighten up Tom. See, now you know why I really came back at you. Like I say. I may not give my all to those folks but I have probaly given more than you have accumulated in your lifetime to try to make a difference even to the misfortune of myself a few times.

    Firetruck at property....Pull the damn hose out. It is really that simple. Figure out the rest after the fire is down, penalties, leans on the home, fines of some kind.....what ever. No one is asking to take anything away from you Tom. Is that what you are afraid of. Sorry if that is the case.

    Did not mean to get into this anymore, way, way back up this thread but opinions like yours just had to be addressed.


  60. #60
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    I agree with Bruce and Tom on this one.


  61. #61
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
    Dave Calkins Guest

    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Tom

    I see there is no getting to you so I will not try anymore.

    You comment of self control issues and then spout off of self esteem issues and alI I said, no matter how much rant was....................

    If they are there already or driving by then do the right thing. Pull out there hose and blast the fire a bit

    You turned it into me having self control and or self esteem issues.

    Tom, if you are seeing a doctor for control and esteem issues I can understand. I know a few folks that do and there is nothing wrong with it. You make it sound like a catchy illness. I am sure those folks love those comments as well.

    Tom, you sound like just a wonderful fella so I will continue to be kind. Please do not put people that have hit hard times into a singular category such as bullshitters. For some reason you had a hard time with that as well. You seem to have many issues so I won't try to pull anymore out.

    You are more than welcome of course to post anything you wish and I am glad you and everyone does. I may not give my all to the little folks and I am not trying to demean anyone for falling on hard times but I have an issue with folks that do not even try to understand. There are those out there that believe everyone can overcome anything with a snap of a finger or running out and taking some more courses to better themselves. That is not the real world Tom by any means. There are millions of folks out there that just cannot put it all together. They try, stumble and bumble but just do not make it. It is not bull **** Tom. It is real life. Many of those folks are smarter than us and can guide many to success but just not put it together themselves.

    Lighten up Tom. See, now you know why I really came back at you. Like I say. I may not give my all to those folks but I have probaly given more than you have accumulated in your lifetime to try to make a difference even to the misfortune of myself a few times.

    Firetruck at property....Pull the damn hose out. It is really that simple. Figure out the rest after the fire is down, penalties, leans on the home, fines of some kind.....what ever. No one is asking to take anything away from you Tom. Is that what you are afraid of. Sorry if that is the case.

    Did not mean to get into this anymore, way, way back up this thread but opinions like yours just had to be addressed.

    Ted, I have read everything that you have written and I have read everything that Tom has written, and to be honest I feel that your last few post were kind of out of line. Tom laid out a well reasoned and very tactfully presented argument for why the firefighters made the decision that they made. You then came back and attacked him personally without provocation it seems just because he does not agree with you. When you do that you kind of look like a hot head and you come off looking like a jerk. This does nothing to help your argument.

    Your car crash analogy or your police analogy I don't feel that they hold much water because we are talking about the difference between people's lives and people's property. The fire fighters in this instance made sure that no-one was in the building so that no lives were at risk. In your car crash scenario and your police analogy peoples lives would be at risk, so of course we in our society should make the effort to do something. But I feel that if you take people's lives out of the equation and if you remove the ecological conditions that may affect other folks in the community out of your scenario's and I feel that we might be making different choices. After people are rescued, cars are left at the bottom of the cliff or we let fires burn themselves out if it is not going to impact others or the environment.

    Tom in your arguments it seems that you are totally ignoring the legal ramifications for the community if the fire fighters indiscriminately choose to help one family who is out of district "because they are already in the neighborhood" and then later when they choose not to come out for another family even if it was in the same non-juristiction neighborhood. If that where ever to happen, you would immediately see multi-million dollar law suites being slung all over the place. The entire community would end up having to pay for all kinds of legal challenges all because the fire department had willingly ignored the cities policies. While it is sad that we in our litigious society have to think about such things, they are a reality that has to be factored into the decision making process.

    Trust me, I understand your argument about folks not being able to pay even such minor fees due to economics and hard times. With the economy where I live, I was unable to find a job for over 10 months all while being a single parent. Talk about scary when you don't get unemployment because you are self employed. I had to make some very real and very hard choices. But even at that, my hardship is not my neighbor's responsibility and this family having "Chosen" not to pay the fee to insure that they would have fire coverage is not ultimately their neighbor's responsibility.


    Ted, you have made the statement several times that "THE FIRE FIGHTERS WHERE ALREADY THERE" (your emphasis) so why not let them just put out the fire. This opinion seems to obligate the firefighters to fighting any and all fires even when they are outside of their jurisdiction if they happen to show up. The argument that "they are there already, what could it hurt to squirt a little water around" ignores the fact that it could indeed hurt the community at large and it could force the community to say sorry we will no longer service anyone out side of our tax base / service area. That indeed would hurt all of the folks in the outlying area who are willing to pay the $75. It seems to me that the city managers / firefighters policies were established in order to fulfill the best good for the entire community, it lets the families take the responsibility for there own choices. By doing this, the firefighter's made the hard choice that would keep everyone in their community from being exposed to multiple law suites and yet will help those that choose to participate. Can't you envision a scenario where all someone who hasn't paid the fee needs to do is somehow get the fire fighters out there. What is to prevent an unethical or desperate person doing what-ever-it-takes to get the fire department out to the site. Once there, they have to put the fire out if we follow the policies you are espousing. Once there the fire department is obligated to fight the fire.

    I believe that the fire fighters have to and did made the hard choice. Was it an easy, fun choice? No. Was it the right choice. I believe it was. If pressed in this manor, I believe that the city could easily end up saying, if we are being forced to fight fires in areas where we have no legal or taxable jurisdiction, we will step back and not fight any fires outside of our taxable mandate. Then no-one in that area will have fire coverage. You say apply fines and leans afterwards, but I think both of of us know that families who have little are not going to be paying.


    Ted, just because you don't agree with the decision making process or the outcome of the communities choices, please don't attack in personal ways someone else who feels differently than you do. In your rebuttal, you state that Tom has control issues, self esteem issues, etc. As an outsider reading both sides, it seems to me that Tom has exercised far more self control in his responses and behavior than you have.

    In reading through this highly charged and tragic thread it seems that you are thinking with more with your heart and less with your head. I believe the heart and head both need to temper each other in order to come up with the most expeditious and compassionate position possible. The needs of the entire community are just as valid as the needs of the individual who didn't pay for the service that they hoped they would never need.


  62. #62
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Your right Dave. I am and was thinking with my heart. Control issues or self esteem issues are no9t an issue over here.

    Once upon a time neighbors would have came from far and wide throwing water, sand or anything they could to put the fire out. No one paid fo fire insurance of any kind back then. What happened to America where the first thoughts are "if some one paid" or "if we put this fire out we could be sued" Iwas not just referring to this particular individual and was quite clear about that.

    I am sorry to here you are a single father and somehow survived for 10 months with absolutely no income what so ever. either you had a tremendous amount of folks behind you helping out or you had funds enough to survive. Either way you were not apparently that hard off. it is nice to have backing from friends and loved ones or a nice nest egg to feed off of. Most do not have either. Somehow you pulled it off. Most folks are dead in a couple months of no pay. The vast majority of individuals are almost pay check to pay check and as some may think it is not because they are losers. It cost a serious amount of money to live today. With a family I have no idea how you lasted that long and I guess it is non of my business.

    For those that found my posts out of hand or if I offended anyone then I apologize but those were my opinions. It's funny how one complains of anothers opinion but wish to express their own and put it forth as though it is law and everyone should think their way. As which...happened here. For ones opinion to be combated then one becomes a combatant. Getting personal? It did not get personal until it got personal. Sometimes personal to one is not the same as personal to another. As far as anyone thinking they can put a limit or dollar figure on anyone elses life as to what they can or cannot afford and I was not just talking of this particular individual then they just may have unresolved issues they need to learn to deal with.

    You are the perfect case Dave. How much longer would it have been after those ten months before everything was gone to the point where 75 dollars was no longer affordable or the friends and family just had no more to give. Or the nest egg in the bank or the last credit card was spent to the limit before that last 75 dollars stood between paying it towards the roof over your head, food on the table and maybe another tank or 2 of gas so you could look in that one more spot for work.

    Everyone responsible for their own....sure....why not. Then when it comes time for the kids to be divided up between families or collecting welfare to squeeze a little more time off.

    I have been divided all my life about the folks that fall on hard times and capitalism at its best. Conservatism and liberalism. Democrat and republican.

    I am a passionate man that has tremendous feelings for all mankind and the other me is a tremendous greedy bastard that wants it all and the hell with everyone else. Let them fend for themselves. There has to be that magic or invisible line whether we like it or not where there is a balance of greed versus passion. As I say I have both lived well and been on the bottom. I also have lived well to the point where I have given away what most make in their lifetime to the point of self implosion....because I care. At present our Gov is heading into give everything you have to everyone else so we can all live the same no matter who works for what. That is way way to far to the extreme liberal and it cannot be sustained. But there also has to be passion and love your fellow man. By the sounds of it both you and Tom are under the belief that it is screw everyone, they can take care of themselves camp. That is way way to far in the other direction.

    I will leave this thread alone. As said. It is an extremely tagic thread


  63. #63
    John Armstrong's Avatar
    John Armstrong Guest

    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Tom V Ted, hearing and seeing it is interesting.

    Enjoy

    Tom v Ted Redux


  64. #64
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by John Armstrong View Post
    Tom V Ted, hearing and seeing it is interesting.

    Enjoy

    Tom v Ted Redux

    Loved it. Absolutely Hysterical. Certainly nothing wrong with a good exchange. A difference of opinion makes life a wonderful thing. If everyone were the same or of the same frame of mind life would be so damn boring.

    Now one thing....the red dress and the hair....not my style. I like the more manly jeans and polo look. Next time turn it into the relaxed professional look with a man instead of a woman. We Italian/Indian/Irish folks get a little touchy sometimes.


  65. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    High Point, NC
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    97

    Default Re: Fire Dept Lets House Burn-Because Local Fire Fee Not Paid

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Tom

    I see there is no getting to you so I will not try anymore.

    You comment of self control issues and then spout off of self esteem issues and alI I said, no matter how much rant was....................

    If they are there already or driving by then do the right thing. Pull out there hose and blast the fire a bit

    You turned it into me having self control and or self esteem issues.

    Tom, if you are seeing a doctor for control and esteem issues I can understand. I know a few folks that do and there is nothing wrong with it. You make it sound like a catchy illness. I am sure those folks love those comments as well.

    Tom, you sound like just a wonderful fella so I will continue to be kind. Please do not put people that have hit hard times into a singular category such as bullshitters. For some reason you had a hard time with that as well. You seem to have many issues so I won't try to pull anymore out.

    You are more than welcome of course to post anything you wish and I am glad you and everyone does. I may not give my all to the little folks and I am not trying to demean anyone for falling on hard times but I have an issue with folks that do not even try to understand. There are those out there that believe everyone can overcome anything with a snap of a finger or running out and taking some more courses to better themselves. That is not the real world Tom by any means. There are millions of folks out there that just cannot put it all together. They try, stumble and bumble but just do not make it. It is not bull **** Tom. It is real life. Many of those folks are smarter than us and can guide many to success but just not put it together themselves.

    Lighten up Tom. See, now you know why I really came back at you. Like I say. I may not give my all to those folks but I have probaly given more than you have accumulated in your lifetime to try to make a difference even to the misfortune of myself a few times.

    Firetruck at property....Pull the damn hose out. It is really that simple. Figure out the rest after the fire is down, penalties, leans on the home, fines of some kind.....what ever. No one is asking to take anything away from you Tom. Is that what you are afraid of. Sorry if that is the case.

    Did not mean to get into this anymore, way, way back up this thread but opinions like yours just had to be addressed.

    "but opinions like yours just had to be addressed" - Ted

    And why is that, Ted? Am I not allowed an opinion that differs from your own?
    Are you the "Opinion Police" on this forum?

    Before I go further I wish to thank Bruce and Paul for their support and agreement with my views regarding the recent incident under discussion.

    Ted, I've noticed that you fail to address the issue under discussion squarely. You spend a lot of time attempting to demean anyone who has a differing opinion than your own. It's a trait that I've seen in many other threads on this forum where you've contributed, and you've contributed a great deal.

    I think any reader of this forum will agree that civil discourse begins with an assumed respect for others engaged in the discussion. Personal assaults, questions regarding someone's character or assumptions regarding the intentions of other contributors is completely out of place here.

    As for "hard times" and personal experiences I think I've seen my share. I will confess that, for the most part, lean times could be directly attributable to my own decisions, or lack of preparation. In short, if I had been more prepared, lean times would not have been quite so lean.

    Yes, the economy plays a part but I might have prepared myself better for this lean time. I think that many of us could see it coming. We just didn't know how bad it might be or how politicians would prolong the experience.

    I was doing some research online yesterday on Prof. John Forbes Nash, Princeton Univ./Nobel Prize Winner. My wife and I were watching the movie "A Beautiful Mind" for the 2nd or 3rd time, and I decided to see what Wikipedia had to say about the genius mathematician. One of the biography contributors posted that "he (Nash) has criticized interest groups that promote quasi-doctrines based on Keynesian economics that permit manipulative short-term inflation and debt tactics that ultimately undermine currencies". (my bold lettering)

    I found this entry very interesting in that Keynesian economics is what is practiced by this administration as well as liberal/progressives from either party in Congress. In modern times, it is well-documented how FDR delayed recovery from the depression by this means from 1933-1942 when this countries factories went back to work building armaments for Great Britain. In short, the math genius stated that our administration's current monetary policies "undermine currencies". I found that interesting. Don't you?

    But I digress......Ted, you are correct in saying that there are many folks who find themselves on hard times, especially now. No doubt about it.


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