Results 1 to 8 of 8
  1. #1
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Top 10 States People Are Fleeing

    Mostly from a combo of expensive living, weather, jobs but has been the trend for a while

    Top 10 States People Are Fleeing - Yahoo! Real Estate

    New York being one of the most expensive places to live and I believe the highest taxes in the country.

    Everyone want service folks to service them but unless their wages skyrocket (making it more expensive to live) they simply cannot afford the high home prices and high rents. Another fine example of the separation of the I make and the no make income side of things. People in the corporate, Gov and high tech jobs do not want to pay higher service wages and want to keep more of what they make but are driving out those service folks because they believe that their lack of higher education makes them not worth more money. What a sad state of affairs. Someone goes to college and gets a better paying job because they "worked so hard in college and they deserve the better life" but the folks in the service industry that literally kill themselves in their hard jobs all their life are not worth anything.

    Those thoughts above were gleaned from many other articles and books and not just from my posted thread. Again what a sad state of mind the general public has moved into.

    That has been my complaint forever. No matter how much education I have or what education the rest of you have please set that aside and think about this.

    We go and get education and feel we are worth so much more because we work hard getting that education. The service folks just never made it to higher formal education and bust their asses all there life but for some reason are not worth (monetarily) as much as someone that worked hard going to college????????????

    I am not for the everyone should make the same thing but the separations are far to great and the mind set that because someone goes to college is worth more than someone that does not when that someone damn near kills themselves servicing those others and gets paid so much less.

    What does all this have to do with home inspections you might ask? Home sales for one. Foreclosures for another. The first folks to lose their homes in a recession is the folks more toward the service sector. They are the first to lose their jobs because in a recession the extra services are cut back because the rest of the folks are trying to save because they are s little nervous.

    Put the thinking in a greater perspective. The service folks should make more to make up for all the ups and downs in the economy because they need to be able to put away more for those down times. The folks in the clean shirts and offices or other "professional" can really afford to make less because their employment stays steadier than the service folks.

    Some day things will equal out a bit. Until then we will go thru this heavy recession where and as things progress the way they are these recessions will hit in greater intervals and hit a lot harder than the past.

    What got me off on this rant. The books I read and the news I hear and read and then there was this guy in a ditch with a shovel that was in that same ditch (just a lot further along) when I went by earlier in the day. For us to think we are worth so much more because we worked so hard in furthering our education..............most have no idea what hard work is. They believe reading and retaining what they read is so hard. Kinda makes me want to cry sometimes.

    And now I am off to Church. I have not been in a while and I think it has been long enough. I need to be with other folks saying a few good words for that man in the ditch.

    Think about it.

    Similar Threads:
    Inspection Referral

  2. #2
    John Armstrong's Avatar
    John Armstrong Guest

    Default Re: Top 10 States People Are Fleeing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Mostly from a combo of expensive living, weather, jobs but has been the trend for a while

    Top 10 States People Are Fleeing - Yahoo! Real Estate

    New York being one of the most expensive places to live and I believe the highest taxes in the country.

    Everyone want service folks to service them but unless their wages skyrocket (making it more expensive to live) they simply cannot afford the high home prices and high rents.
    But that was the only example of this in the list. Illinois, Ohio, Florida, North Dakota, Nebraska and Kansas hardly qualify for 'expensive living'. I think the picture is more complex then this and more indicative of a general breakdown in this segment of the economy as a whole. Sure, expensive areas (New York, California etc) highlight the problem but its pretty universal these days.

    Another fine example of the separation of the I make and the no make income side of things. People in the corporate, Gov and high tech jobs do not want to pay higher service wages and want to keep more of what they make but are driving out those service folks because they believe that their lack of higher education makes them not worth more money. What a sad state of affairs. Someone goes to college and gets a better paying job because they "worked so hard in college and they deserve the better life" but the folks in the service industry that literally kill themselves in their hard jobs all their life are not worth anything.
    I don't think its so much 'deserve the better life', I think its more how the USA society as a whole has shifted to knowledge workers. This board is a GREAT example of that. HI's are, more or less, knowledge workers. They don't build, they don't create, they don't generate. They evaluate. They judge. They critique. In a way, the HI trade is firmly in the majority of this shift to knowledge work. I think thats an interesting lens to view this through.


    We go and get education and feel we are worth so much more because we work hard getting that education. The service folks just never made it to higher formal education and bust their asses all there life but for some reason are not worth (monetarily) as much as someone that worked hard going to college????????????

    I am not for the everyone should make the same thing but the separations are far to great and the mind set that because someone goes to college is worth more than someone that does not when that someone damn near kills themselves servicing those others and gets paid so much less.
    The real question is : Should an individual get compensated based on the output of their labor OR should they be compensated based on their net contribution to GDP. If I build a 'knowledge product' that employees 20 people and creates $10m/year in revenue with associated taxes, payroll, health care etc should I be paid the same as the guy digging a ditch? He works DAMN harder then I do but my individual contribution to economic society is dramatically more.

    Sure, the incentives are way out of whack, but you have to look at the whole picture.


    Put the thinking in a greater perspective. The service folks should make more to make up for all the ups and downs in the economy because they need to be able to put away more for those down times. The folks in the clean shirts and offices or other "professional" can really afford to make less because their employment stays steadier than the service folks.
    Why is it societies responsibility to provide for the 'ups and downs'. Shoot, I was a tech consultant for years and whenever the economy tanked I got hurt, BIG TIME. Should society step in and pay me more since things fell apart or do only people who sweat and did not go to college get this assistance?

    In general I agree, service people are underpaid. I tip like a mad-man when I think someone is under-charging for their services. This weekend we had a chip in our tub repaired and this poor bastard had to sit in our bathroom and deal with the fumes and terribleness. I gave him a 50% tip, he deserved more for what he dealt with.

    However, ignoring the impact of highly trained professionals on the larger economy is probably not accurate or appropriate. Yes, things are dramatically out of whack right now but this is not Soviet Russia, we do not 'get according to our needs'. In a Capitalist society you generally (theoretically at least), get according to your overall, cohesive, value.

    In theory, I leave it up to all of the political debate folks to decide if that last statement is, is not, should or should not, be true.

    John-


  3. #3
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Top 10 States People Are Fleeing

    Well I thank you for the come back and to be honest with you I would have been shocked if you or anyone else would have stated it any different than you.

    Things will never change and that is more or less what I was talking about. It is a shame that the educated feel they deserve more because they contribute more.

    That was another one of my points and probably the major point. The have nots create far greater wealth in this country than anyone does. Every piece of real estate, highway, high rise, boat, car, airplane chair, table, floor, window, ski boat, skis, etc etc etc etc. Sign, trench, ditch, flag, food, candy, toy, computer, toy radio, tire etc etc etc etc. No one will ever admit it that has an education and a clean cushy job. They will always believe that their contribution to society is much great and more greatly needed. Take all those service folks away and you have nothing. Take all the cushy educated jobs away and the service folks will continue to create, build, survive. The educated folks will be living under a bridge because they can contribute nothing to society other than trying to create another cushy job for themselves. The cushy live on the backs that are broken.

    No, this is not the soviet union and should not be and will never be. But the realization will come to fruition when the economy really crashes. Not a little recession like we are in but a reral crash. When the populous prices themselves out of existence. That pricing out of existence started some time ago and continues today.

    The have nots work 2 to 3 jobs. The haves work one unless they want a better toy and then fill in as...........a home inspector Now isn't that the truth ? thus....this thread having to do with home inspection


  4. #4
    John Armstrong's Avatar
    John Armstrong Guest

    Default Re: Top 10 States People Are Fleeing

    I actually think you miss my greater point (or I did not express it well).

    Its an interdependent society. Some people dig ditches, some people finance the digging of those ditches. Its a market economy. The rules of the game are that those who can pay for the most people to work tend to gather a larger proportion of the wealth due to the ability to pull together the resources, financing, legal and political capital to accomplish those tasks.

    So, just like there are no roads etc etc etc with the laborer there are no laborers without the financiers etc etc etc.

    I guess what would be interesting would be your take on the solution rather then just highlighting the problem. My proposal would be something along the lines of (guessing now, I have not given this more thought and this is not really my opinion, just an example of the argument):

    1) Normalize the citizen/non-citizen labor markets so that a fair exchange can be had
    2) Create incentives for individuals to pursue the trades
    3) Re-vitalize the labor movement (unions) so that tradesmen have political clout that can be leveraged against the monied elite.
    4) Develop a more redistributive tax structure so that wealth can not accumulate at its current out of whack levels.

    That would be a pretty liberal agenda in 2010 America (although other countries would see it as par for the course and assumed rights potentially).

    What do you propose?
    John-


  5. #5
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Top 10 States People Are Fleeing

    Quote Originally Posted by John Armstrong View Post
    I actually think you miss my greater point (or I did not express it well).

    Its an interdependent society. Some people dig ditches, some people finance the digging of those ditches. Its a market economy. The rules of the game are that those who can pay for the most people to work tend to gather a larger proportion of the wealth due to the ability to pull together the resources, financing, legal and political capital to accomplish those tasks.

    So, just like there are no roads etc etc etc with the laborer there are no laborers without the financiers etc etc etc.

    I guess what would be interesting would be your take on the solution rather then just highlighting the problem. My proposal would be something along the lines of (guessing now, I have not given this more thought and this is not really my opinion, just an example of the argument):

    1) Normalize the citizen/non-citizen labor markets so that a fair exchange can be had
    2) Create incentives for individuals to pursue the trades
    3) Re-vitalize the labor movement (unions) so that tradesmen have political clout that can be leveraged against the monied elite.
    4) Develop a more redistributive tax structure so that wealth can not accumulate at its current out of whack levels.

    That would be a pretty liberal agenda in 2010 America (although other countries would see it as par for the course and assumed rights potentially).

    What do you propose?
    John-
    Change the way of thinking of the masses.

    Unions (which I despise) are not the answer. Unions only make the matter worse as you can see by the Auto union. It will eventually kill the auto industry because no one will be able to afford a car someday.They will collapse again and probably pretty soon. The Post Workers Union....that does not work. A friend of mine just retired and has an unbelievable retirement and benefits for life. He ended up with over 60,000.00 a year to deliver mail and serious benefits and his overtime brought him into the 80s.

    Redistribute wealth. Not the answer at all that just pits once class against another.

    Forget 3 and 4 on your list. They only make the ones already making more demand even more because those pesky have nots are getting to close and they are not worth it.

    I just deleted a book on the matter I am sure I will not re-post it.

    The thoughts of this post were intended for thought for a Sunday morning not debate. Although it is a wonderful conversation, that more folks should have more often, I am not sure mister Brian would want it to continue for long.

    It is the mind set about how much more one is worth if they obtain a higher education. They truly are not worth as much as is being drilled into everyone's mind. High school....college (4 years) then 4 years, then a masters, then a PhD. Incrementally all should be worth a little more then the one lower than but not these vast amounts we have now.

    Mind set is the change that is needed and it better happen real quick...real quick.

    Another day


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    1,078

    Default Re: Top 10 States People Are Fleeing

    So those who invest in themselves by spending time and money learning new skills, more depth or breadth of knowledge should not be rewarded while those who have made no investment to differentiate themselves from others should be paid more? I think you need to revisit your logic.

    Unskilled labor and service worker tasks can be performed with no or little training. The workers can be replaced by another unskilled labor in under a week. And you think society should reward their interchangeability?

    Workers with higher education have a different skill set. They are not interchangeable. Leaders are always paid more than followers. Leaders have to make decisions that determine the profitability of the company and its workers. For taking that risk and setting the course, they get paid a higher profit.

    As a home inspector, I am able to set myself apart by investing in my company. One of those investments is in training. The more knowledge I have, the better I am able to serve my clients. I can command a higher wage because I offer a different and better service. College degrees are not pertinent to our profession but ICC code certifications, test based licenses, and similar methods do change the worker and their product.

    I worked white collar jobs for over 2 decades. My specialized training and schooling allowed me to perform tasks that others without my training and education could not. I was paid more than service workers because I could do things they could not. When you pay the expert big $ to flip the switch. It is not the task of flipping the switch, it is knowing which switch to flip.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  7. #7
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Top 10 States People Are Fleeing

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    So those who invest in themselves by spending time and money learning new skills, more depth or breadth of knowledge should not be rewarded while those who have made no investment to differentiate themselves from others should be paid more? I think you need to revisit your logic.

    Wow

    Unskilled labor and service worker tasks can be performed with no or little training. The workers can be replaced by another unskilled labor in under a week. And you think society should reward their interchangeability?

    Wow

    Workers with higher education have a different skill set. They are not interchangeable. Leaders are always paid more than followers. Leaders have to make decisions that determine the profitability of the company and its workers. For taking that risk and setting the course, they get paid a higher profit.

    As a home inspector, I am able to set myself apart by investing in my company. One of those investments is in training. The more knowledge I have, the better I am able to serve my clients. I can command a higher wage because I offer a different and better service. College degrees are not pertinent to our profession but ICC code certifications, test based licenses, and similar methods do change the worker and their product.

    Sorry, and please do not get offended because I do when someone says this, A ditch digger could do what we do with a short apprenticeship. Show him what to look for and he learns as he goes just as we did picking more up along the way. Put him in a code class and and he can pass the test as you did.

    I worked white collar jobs for over 2 decades. My specialized training and schooling allowed me to perform tasks that others without my training and education could not. I was paid more than service workers because I could do things they could not. When you pay the expert big $ to flip the switch. It is not the task of flipping the switch, it is knowing which switch to flip.

    And the vast amount of white collar jobs can be learned by almost......anyone!
    Like I said...just a Sunday morning rant thinking of the have nots.

    Do I think you are worth more, sure. Don't be so amazed at the fact that with a little training a lot of these have nots can do anything anyone else does...without 4 years of college.

    Also lets not forget. You say investing in yourself. They do that every day. Also don't be so sure about anyone of them being able to be replaced so easy. With little training they can and do replace us every day. Some make it and some don't.

    I think you are going a bit far on the protectionism thing (of yourself). I said the gaps are to great. Every time the have nots get a little more the haves feel they are far so worthy that they must get more to keep that big gap in place.

    Please do not act like there is no investment in the non higher educated. There is a tremendous investment. The reason why even the skilled move on even though they may absolutely love there ass breaking job is because there is to big of a gap.

    I have been on the dirt bottom and climbed higher financially then many ever will. Now I am caught in the middle because this is what I wish to do because I love it and will ride out the slower periods.

    Again I think you are not putting a lot of thought in the investment and that is what I am talking about. There is field investment and there is formal education investment. You are obviously one of the countless that feel you are worth a serious amount more. In fact you can and may be replaced tomorrow from one of those folks you find not worthy (in a couple of months). Will they do as good a job, no, but in a while they will.

    Again this was not meant as a debate it was just a Sunday morning thought for the so many that are out there that are thought of as the unworthy. Personaly I know for a fact I could take countless many and train them in a short time to do a vast number of other jobs without them having to do the 4 years in college....but then again some have done their field college for years and decades and still are thought of as unworthy and easily replaced. I can also guarantee that there are vast amounts of folks that could not walk into their jobs and become proficient at it or even just become good at what they do even after years because it takes years to learn it all. Not so easy to replace all these folks as you think. Some of there skills are learned over years and decades. If you think not you should go on a sabbatical and try some of there jobs sometime. The amount of knowledge they need to move up the ladder is endless but even though they love what the do that ladder never has a top rung to get to because so many think they are not worthy and made no investment in themselves.

    Point being, I am not just talking of the ditch digger. There are countless trades out there that take a decade or more to become that unworthy top dog because the other half feel they are not worthy because they do not invest in themselves. Many of those trades I call professions because they are professionals at what they do (they are freaking amazing) that you could never hold a candle to or me or many out there no matter how hard they tried or effort they put into it.

    They are very proud people and get insulated just as easy as you when some one says that they never invested in themselves. They have all their life. They just don't get paid for it.

    No insulting intended. Just simple, real simple, facts

    One more quick fact. Many just do not have the proper wiring to do the college thing but can still go out there and be taught hands on to do what just about anything anyone out there can do. College is certainly not all that at all.

    I know a man that can do things with wood that wood scare you even thinking of how he did that. His skill is only worth so much because folks cannot see the worth in it.

    I also have a friend that thinks he is an artist. It is the most dreadful work that there is out there (and most think so) but he found a small niche that will pay him for this garbage (small niche) He makes more than we do.

    Please never say that these folks do not invest in themselves. Many absolutely love what they do and it takes years and decades to become good at it and few can exceed the upper level because it takes years to master what they do and a handful only make it to the top as in any trade or profession.

    As far as that ditch digger. He should make more than all of us. He works physically harder in a month than most do in a year....and he is worth.....less. I would never say worthless when referring to him, or unworthy.

    Different skill sets....anyone can be trained to do about anything. It does not mean anyone would be good or great at it but some may.

    Oh yeah. Please don't get mad. Seriously, this is a funny but a little serious.

    A chimp can be taught to flip the right switch and to even know what is going to happen when he flips the right or wrong switch.

    Sorry if I offended anyone. It was food for thought for this season that is upon us. You should all thank Whomever you look up at (or down at for that matter) for those unworthy and start thinking of them as extremely worthy and worth a lot more ( in most cases) than what they get now.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    1,078

    Default Re: Top 10 States People Are Fleeing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Like I said...just a Sunday morning rant thinking of the have nots.

    Different skill sets....anyone can be trained to do about anything. It does not mean anyone would be good or great at it but some may.

    A chimp can be taught to flip the right switch and to even know what is going to happen when he flips the right or wrong switch.
    My point exactly. Most people with an IQ over 90 can be taught to perform most tasks. It is an education thing. Spend enough time preparing to perform a job by training.

    Many white collar jobs are not about performing a repetitive task. It is about free thinking and drawing conclusions from a data. The ability to free think and develop solutions to problems without knowing the answer takes practice and a base of knowledge. College is not a trade school. It teaches basic knowledge about a topic but it does not teach students how to do a specific job. Trade schools teach a good foundation knowledge in a topic and specific skills to perform a job. In both cases, the worker went to school to get additional training.

    Currently society pays more for those who work with their minds rather than with their hands. The exceptions are the artists. The ones who elevate the basic physical skill beyond the every day practice.

    A ditch digger could be trained to replace a home inspector if provided training. Right. He has to invest in himself by getting additional education. Doesn't have to be college, but has to be more training.

    Can anyone be taught to be a home inspector? Sure they can sit through the classroom training about how homes are assembled. They can learn the names of all the building parts. They can learn what they have to report according to the SOP. They can learn the codes. They can be shown what clues to look for when in the field. They can be taught to write. They can be coached on communication skills when dealing with other people. They can be taught to overcome their fear of heights and confined spaces. They can be taught to drive a vehicle and raise a ladder safely. But they have to change by learning new stuff. They have to take the first step in changing their lives.

    I did not become a home inspector because someone gave me a company name, logo, and business cards. I became a home inspector because I invested time and money in education, field work, and starting a company.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •