Thread: repair or replace as necessary

So you've written up the problem by identifying where and what it is, why its a problem and then.......time for the recommendation.


I typically end with the following;


Have a qualified contractor (insert specifics if you will IE plumber, electrician HVAC tech etc) repair or replace as necessary.


Anyone care to criticize or support the final line?

So as not to cause unnecessary discussion, I don't use this when suggesting that bushes be trimmed or grading needs correcting etc. Its obviously for those problems that would need either repair or replacement.

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I say pretty much the same thing except "repair or replace as recommended by the contractor", just in case it's not "necessary" according to the contractor.

I agree with you John and use similar verbiage......."have entire HVAC system serviced by an HVAC professional and all repairs/replacements made as needed"

The only time I write repair or replace is if I already wrote my opinion that it needs replacing. Or, If there is a chance that it may not need replacing (but I think there is a good chance that it does) I will write that is needs a deeper review to see if replacement is necessary. You can replace about every component to an item and not actually have to replace it. When ever I say review or deeper evaluation it is due to the fact that I already found a lot wrong with the particular system and wrote it up and a deeper eval is for the strong fact that there is a lot more going on that I am not going to spend an hour on figuring out.

I know the further evaluation is frowned upon as we already did that but that being said there is always the possibility that there is more wrong. That further eval is to find them.

Example

A leaking roof. You may see or think you see exactly what is going on. Give your opinion of what is obvious in the needs of repair and while they are there pricing it up for repair they need to get deeper into it, which they will. If it leaks afterward and you wrote specifically what was happening and there was more to it but all they fix is exactly what you said???? I think you are the liable one as they did exactly what you said.

I use further eval/review a lot. We are there for a limited time. I inspected a home yesterday with a retaining wall on the right side of the property abutting the right nehbor. That retaining wall had seriously thick ground cover growing down over it and into the neighbors yard. I could only see pieces of it but it did needed to be removed and replaced and that is what I stated with a ....period in the end of that statement. They need a contractor to come in for pricing for "removal and replacement of that retaining wall." I have absolutely no problems telling folks if it is obvious to replace. Yeah yeah. Realtors love me. Diplomacy can take a back seat.

Now after that rant

It depends on the situation as to what or how I write it.

I use 'repair or replace as desired' quite a bit. Obviously if the furnace is dead or something like that, it turns into 'replace'.
However on a lot of stuff whether to repair or replace is fairly subjective. Its not my place to dictate how people live or what is ok or not for them.
Let's say its a 15 year old patio door with some rot along the bottom and sides from age and snow. Do you repair or replace? It isn't my job to make that decision. I don't know how much money or what type of standards the client has. Replacement would probably be better given condition and age. However, the homeowner could go the HD buy some bondo and paint and fix it. If he/she does a good job they'll get a few more years out of the door and nobody will know the difference.

Repair or replace is used in my reports, I also try and put a time line as to when the item should be corrected along with implications if I can.

I typically have a sentence in every report that states A licensed general contractor should be used to repair all items reported in the summary section needing repair unless otherwise noted. Depending on the section of the report each section may have an additional statement similar to the following: Air Conditioning System - A licensed Mechanical contractor should perform any HVAC or ventilation repair, replacement, evaluation or consultation for all items reported in this section needing attention unless otherwise noted.
After I describe the issue, explain why it is an issue and explain what may happen (all required in NC) I then usually end with "corrective action is needed". This allows the "expert" to decide what needs to be done. Also I do explain the reality as part of my verbal debriefing..

I think most of us are in close agreement here. I tend to use , have a qualified (fill in the blank) evaluate, repair and replace as necessary.

As we all know sometimes is cheaper to replace something than try to repair it but that is up to the contractor and owner.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson

I say pretty much the same thing except "repair or replace as recommended by the contractor", just in case it's not "necessary" according to the contractor.

I read "repair or replace as necessary" as giving the contractor the decision already. The "as necessary" part is implying that they will do their evaluation and make the decision.

That brings me to my second point and Ted touched on this too. Some inspectors say we shouldn't recommend further evaluation. They say that we as inspectors are paid to do the evaluation so why are we recommending further. There may be a few inspectors who always know what exactly should be done but not many.

That's why I like "repair or replace as necessary" I got the idea from a well respected member of this forum anyway.

Occaisionally I'll use, "have a qualified (insert title) evaluate the condition to determine and provide for proper repair".

I will suggest exactly should be done if I know for sure what it is. I do that probably 70% of the time.

I use that phrase quite a lot and always make sure I include "professionally" so the repair is likely to be done properly.

When it is serious enough, I say to have (it) evaluated by a professional prior to closing.

As with the others I say repair/replace in my reports a lot. Even if you have a solid fact based opinion of what should be done there's always someone who wants to argue. When you state both you keep your phone from ringing.

As for the not using "further evaluate", I largely disagree that it shouldn't be used.... sometimes I may prefer to use "further investigate". For instance, there is damaged flooring around the toilet, the extent of which cannot be known without removing some materials. Further invesitgation by a qualifed contractor is recommended to determine the extent of the problems and to perform the necessary repairs. Realistically, if you identify a problem and give a reasonbly clear recommendation the client doesn't have much recourse, however you choose to say it.

"Further evaluate" does still have its place, however. Unless you profess to be the end all source of knowledge and authority on HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical, every structural aspect and anything else that can come up in a house built within the last couple hundred years or so. Of course, there are a few on this board that try to meet that criteria but I'm the first to tell you I'm not that guy.

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

As with the others I say repair/replace in my reports a lot. Even if you have a solid fact based opinion of what should be done there's always someone who wants to argue. When you state both you keep your phone from ringing.

As for the not using "further evaluate", I largely disagree that it shouldn't be used.... sometimes I may prefer to use "further investigate". For instance, there is damaged flooring around the toilet, the extent of which cannot be known without removing some materials. Further invesitgation by a qualifed contractor is recommended to determine the extent of the problems and to perform the necessary repairs. Realistically, if you identify a problem and give a reasonbly clear recommendation the client doesn't have much recourse, however you choose to say it.

"Further evaluate" does still have its place, however. Unless you profess to be the end all source of knowledge and authority on HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical, every structural aspect and anything else that can come up in a house built within the last couple hundred years or so. Of course, there are a few on this board that try to meet that criteria but I'm the first to tell you I'm not that guy.

What Matt says........

I agree with Matt. From my experience, some sellers who are likely PO'd from all the things that end up in the report will give the buyer a hard time if your report verbiage only calls for repairs but doesn't mention replacement and a professional says the roof needs to be replaced. Calling for repairs/replacement as needed serves two purposes: it covers your client and it covers your own butt.

In my KEY to terms used in the report I defined ATTENTION as: Specific notation is made that issues were found that need to be addresses by competent repair personnel (in most cases a licensed contractor) after a full system evaluation as soon as possible.

Then when I find an issues where I see a problem, I call it out and use ATTENTION.

I don't have a problem with using the "as necessary" comment, but I don't really care for it, and don't use it myself. In a recent meeting with an attorney, my client and another expert, we were reviewing the contract used by the builder my client is suing. He used "as necessary" just about everywhere in his scope of work. This is likely going to come back and bite him on the rear when we get to court. If I was using "as necessary" before the meeting, I wouldn't be now, just from listening to how the attorney and other expert were honing in on it. Food for thought.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

In my KEY to terms used in the report I defined ATTENTION as: Specific notation is made that issues were found that need to be addresses by competent repair personnel (in most cases a licensed contractor) after a full system evaluation as soon as possible.

Then when I find an issues where I see a problem, I call it out and use ATTENTION.

I don't have a problem with using the "as necessary" comment, but I don't really care for it, and don't use it myself. In a recent meeting with an attorney, my client and another expert, we were reviewing the contract used by the builder my client is suing. He used "as necessary" just about everywhere in his scope of work. This is likely going to come back and bite him on the rear when we get to court. If I was using "as necessary" before the meeting, I wouldn't be now, just from listening to how the attorney and other expert were honing in on it. Food for thought.

There is no "as necessary". Either it needs repair or it needs replacement at the earliest possible date.

The idea whether or not it is my place to tell folks something needs replacing? Well, it is my place. Whether the seller or the buyer actually replaces it or just replaces 45% of it or does not do anything at all it certainly not my place to decide whether they do or not. As in whether they can afford, want to pass it by, shrug it off is not my place.

Repairs are needed. Replacement is needed. Touch up is needed. I will say by a licensed HVAC company, licensed electrician, licensed plumber etc etc etc. Now whether they hire Joe Dirt and he is a complete screw up there is no getting around the fact that they need to find a qualified (if that is even possible) contractor to repair, replace, touch up, adjust etc. I use the term "if that is even possible". They do their due diligent, and I hate that term, to find someone that truly knows what they are doing to the best of their investigative nature to find that person. They may find the bum that has not a clue but talked a good game.

Now as far as further evaluation or a slew of other words. Well you know and I know that no qualified individual is just going to walk in with exact components in hand and do exactly as you say. I do put it on the contractor to further evaluate for the "complete" repair of that particular system. I do not expect them or want them to just take my word for it. I want them to dig deeper and find every associated item wrong with that system. We are there for a limited time and do not spend a couple hours on every system in the home.

I hate the term generalist but in fact we are unless we are going to spend that couple hours on every item. We find enough and then some to warrant further evaluation and repair/replacement. The rest is on that contractor and my folks are made fully aware of that.

Oh yeah. Good morning.

An insurance company asked the client "When was the roof last replaced?". Client asked me to report. It is a mobile home. I said the roof has been re-coated, probably several times with a variety of products and it is not leaking. The insurance agent said sorry, the roof needs to be "replaced".

I have had the opportunity to perform inspections on homes that I previously inspected at times years earlier. I often find that conditions I recommended R/R in a prior report are still in the same condition, or minimal repairs were done. I agree with an earlier statement that different people have different needs, expectations and standards. I see my job as an inspector is to give advise, that make my clients aware of conditions that are concerning in "general" and it is up to them to decide there actions. I use "Repair / Replace as found necessary" in my reports. I feel that providing any specific repair instructions is an increase to my liability. I think that my R/R statement covers it well enough. It is still a free country (for now). If someone wants ignore my recommendation and live with rotted siding or a leaking roof that's there choice to make. It's like the old saying goes: You can lead a horse but you can't make it drink.

Originally Posted by Bob R

I have had the opportunity to perform inspections on homes that I previously inspected at times years earlier. I often find that conditions I recommended R/R in a prior report are still in the same condition, or minimal repairs were done. I agree with an earlier statement that different people have different needs, expectations and standards. I see my job as an inspector is to give advise, that make my clients aware of conditions that are concerning in "general" and it is up to them to decide there actions. I use "Repair / Replace as found necessary" in my reports. I feel that providing any specific repair instructions is an increase to my liability. I think that my R/R statement covers it well enough. It is still a free country (for now). If someone wants ignore my recommendation and live with rotted siding or a leaking roof that's there choice to make. It's like the old saying goes: You can lead a horse but you can't make it drink.

I hate to say this.....liability......who cares. That is the absolute last thing I think about at an Inspection. The only think I ever think about at the inspection is the inspection and the degree to report.

Ted,

You say there is no "as necessary". It either needs one or the other, correct?

So, in the statement, "repair or replace as necessary", what are you interpreting the "as necessary" meaning?

My point is that "as necessary" is not meant to suggest that there may or may not be a problem. It's meant to leave the final decision as to what should be done to correct the problem up to the qualified person doing the work.

For instance; "Have a contractor further evaluate to repair or replace as necessary" is redundant. Would you agree?

Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr

Ted,

You say there is no "as necessary". It either needs one or the other, correct?

So, in the statement, "repair or replace as necessary", what are you interpreting the "as necessary" meaning?

My point is that "as necessary" is not meant to suggest that there may or may not be a problem. It's meant to leave the final decision as to what should be done to correct the problem up to the qualified person doing the work.

For instance; "Have a contractor further evaluate to repair or replace as necessary" is redundant. Would you agree?

I do no think it was me saying as necessary unless I made a misstatement. If it needs repair it is necessary. If it needs replacement it is necessary. I do believe or at the very least tried to convey that. I guess I will have to go back over previous posts.

I am the one that said I know that no contractor is going to come in and just do as you say without their own evaluation. I push towards that so no one thinks I found every single little component to the system that is wrong with it. If it needs replacing then have it replaced. They don't want to....Oh well. As "necessary"? I look at that as saying I really don't have a clue, no offense and none intended toward others, so what ever is necessary, do it. One would never have no clue at all. One always knows they basics, plus,plus, of it at the least but may not have chased down every single circuit etc.

If you have a 20 year old AC condenser and it is about falling apart and barely doing anything there is absolutely nothing I would write but it needs replacing do to age and extent of repairs. That is not taking their options away. They can still do what ever they wish. Melted circuit board or what ever. Replacement is needed.

Your statement "Have a contractor further evaluate to repair or replace as necessary". I would never do that. I would tell them what I found and by the time a contractor does his deeper eval so to speak before he gives a price for repair I am certain he will find a bit more in most cases so I do not go light on my end in the slightest.


An example

The left side of the home has several cracks in the mortar and or bricks in a few areas on that side of the home. The soil is flat on that side of the home and does need to be built up. There are no gutters and that is why all that soil washed away and there are pockets that hold water and swell the soil. The movement was not that great over time but there were never any controls joints in that 76 foot run of brick wall and that is why the brick did crack in as many places as it did.

Basically I tell them right out that they need full gutters on the home with down spouts extending away from the home etc etc. They need soil added to have proper slope away from the home and cap this off with sod so it does not wash away again. They need to have the mortar cracks re-pointed. They need to have control joints cut into the wall so future movement does not crack the brick in the future. Even with minor movement there will be cracks in the future if all or this does not take place.

Or something along all those lines. But I do not hesitate to tell them what they need straight out. Yes I knew all that had to be done but I also had a foundation man that I called about another home that was in the neighborhood and he came over and took a quick eval.

It's interesting to see how reporting has changed in the past 10-12 years.
When I got started computer generated reports were just starting to get used. At that time the training I had via school and CE courses it was pretty much,
Bad Roof. --You climb the ladder and see roof defects,
-Check the Box stating somethings wrong with the roof, have a roofer evaluate and correct,
" end of the roof inspection" on to the next item, same thing.

I was taught to believe , it's not our job to explain or figure out why something was wrong. We did our job as long as you referred it to someone else.
If we did that we covered our butts by referring to a professional, any liability goes to that person.

Now that the checks lists are outdated, the customers expections are, tell me whats wrong, why is it wrong, why should it be corrected, what happens if it's not corrected, then who should correct it.

Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr

My point is that "as necessary" is not meant to suggest that there may or may not be a problem. It's meant to leave the final decision as to what should be done to correct the problem up to the qualified person doing the work.

For instance; "Have a contractor further evaluate to repair or replace as necessary" is redundant. Would you agree?

I agree, I use "repair or replace as needed", but only where there is doubt, can it actually be repaired or will they just replace it?

I never use the "further evaluate" statements that come with the programs. I think you will agree, John, that we should try not to talk down to people. I use "have it serviced and inspected" if I can't inspect it myself, a furnace for example.

I might use "obtain an expert opinion from a structural engineer" in an extreme case.

I think "have a contractor repair or replace the gizmo" is clear enough.

My main point of the thread was the "as necessary" part. I use it (only when needed) as implying that the contractor will make the decision. To that end, the contractor will need to do their own evaluation of the condition that I identified at the inspection. Their evaluation will determine the "as necessary" part of the action.

It's a kill two birds with one stone kind of a thing.

I don't use repair or replace "as necessary" because as this post shows, it leaves unanswered questions.

Depending on the defect or issue, I use any one (but not limited to ) of the following:

1. Repair or replace as required to restore function.
2. Repair or replace in accordance with latest industry standards.
3. Repair or replace per manufacturers recommendations.
4. Repair or replace to restore safety.

Originally Posted by Ken Amelin

I don't use repair or replace "as necessary" because as this post shows, it leaves unanswered questions.

Depending on the defect or issue, I use any one (but not limited to ) of the following:

1. Repair or replace as required to restore function.
2. Repair or replace in accordance with latest industry standards.
3. Repair or replace per manufacturers recommendations.
4. Repair or replace to restore safety.

Repair or replace or die you fool

"repair or replace as proves cost effective".
I use this when I believe a repair would restore functionality, but the cost of same may be a significant % of an upgrade that could yield benefits over the long haul. An example would be an old window with broken glass and/or other issues.

In order for the contractor to repair / replace something, they will first have to do their own evaluation, regardless of how we report it. At that point, their repair may be a replacement. There are many times when I will recommend replacement over repair, especially when something is old and non efficient. I think 'repair as needed or as determined by the proper contractor" pretty much should cover it.

Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr

So you've written up the problem by identifying where and what it is, why its a problem and then.......time for the recommendation.


I typically end with the following;


Have a qualified contractor (insert specifics if you will IE plumber, electrician HVAC tech etc) repair or replace as necessary.


Anyone care to criticize or support the final line?

So as not to cause unnecessary discussion, I don't use this when suggesting that bushes be trimmed or grading needs correcting etc. Its obviously for those problems that would need either repair or replacement.

My opinion further investigation recommended by professtional
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