Thread: Grab bars

My Dad is having a hard time getting around.
He uses a cane to walk. Today the Dr told him to get a scooter.
Even with the cane he has fallen several times.
I'm worried that he may fall so I'm wanting to install some grab bars in the shower and at the toilet for safety, and maybe something at the back door.

I thought some of you may have already gone through this and may have some advice or ideas.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

My Dad is having a hard time getting around.
He uses a cane to walk. Today the Dr told him to get a scooter.
Even with the cane he has fallen several times.
I'm worried that he may fall so I'm wanting to install some grab bars in the shower and at the toilet for safety, and maybe something at the back door.

I thought some of you may have already gone through this and may have some advice or ideas.

My sister-in-law is having her shower completely redone for the same reason - installing a bench seat, a separate shower valve with a hand held shower at the seat, a shower valve and diverter valve at the shower head with another hand held on a vertical slide bar, and an "L" grab bar.

Of course, doing everything with the drywall wall off is much easier to install the necessary blocking for the grab bars and stuff.

In our house, I installed a 42" bar at a angle so I could mount it to the studs (no blocking behind the tile). While the official code way is for the bar to be horizontal, the angled bar is better than no bar.

Another way to address the blocking is, if you can get to the back side of the wall, remove a piece of drywall large enough to install blocking at the two locations and then patch the drywall.

I went through the back of a closet when I added a bar in the bathroom of our house in South Florida.

(Finished with edit on my desktop computer as my notebook started doing wild and crazy things just trying to finish typing the last sentence.)

For simpler, faster retro work, Wingits brand anchors install where there's no blocking. I've installed them and the can help put the bars where you want them to go.

Dom.

As Jerry mentioned; opening up the opposite side of the shower walls is the way to go (less expensive then replacing shower surround) for placement of grab bar backing. A patch is a patch, so don't scrimp on size. make it big enough to easily place your backing in desired location. Try to stay a couple inches away from inside corners (ceiling or walls), so you don't have to refinish other wall or ceiling planes. Make sure your backing material is FLAT and properly sized, don't knock it into place. Would not recommend using an impact driver (in tiled surround area). Recommend standard cordless (close then hand tighten fasteners for grab bars in surround area). In surround area, recommend applying silicone to back of flange before tightening. If your substrat is a natural product, make sure the silicone you use is of a type which is compatible with the stone used. Don't forget to caulk your grab bar escutcheons in the surround area. Check the tub/shower floor surface to confirm the anti skid texture is adequate. Add tape or mat if needed. Consider an emergency call pendant (I picked a guy up who had been wedged between his deck (3 rises) and hedge for 20 minutes). Landline phone user? Consider chasing a phone jack into the bathroom.

Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino

For simpler, faster retro work, Wingits brand anchors install where there's no blocking. I've installed them and the can help put the bars where you want them to go.

Dom.

Dom,

I know their advertising is good, and that those will 'last forever', but it is the material they are installed in that keeps me from trusting them ... we all know what eventually happens to drywall behind tile - and that drywall is what those things are in and what is holding those things ...

Not for me.

I noticed all the references they gave, but the code calls for backing and specifies the type and thickness of the backing (metal or wood) and those are not either.

Shower is in outside corner, so no access from other side.
Shower walls and floor are marble tile (12x12).

I gave him a "PERS" (Personal Emergency Response System) pendant, it " got lost".

I'm thinking grab bars and a folding seat in shower. Garb bar at toilet.
Ramp or landing with a smaller step up and hand rail at door.

Thanks for the comments

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Shower is in outside corner, so no access from other side.
Shower walls and floor are marble tile (12x12).

I gave him a "PERS" (Personal Emergency Response System) pendant, it " got lost".

I'm thinking grab bars and a folding seat in shower. Garb bar at toilet.
Ramp or landing with a smaller step up and hand rail at door.

Thanks for the comments

Install an "L" bar as it is stronger (because it wraps the corner) and one or two shorter bars (I think they are 14" or so) vertically next to the entry.

Because you don't have proper backing for the folding seat either, install one with legs as the legs will take most of the weight off the wall support. More likely than not, once the seat has been raised and lowered a few times, the seat will remain down anyway.

Jerry,

Sometimes people need options. Those WingIt devices work, especially in tile walls. If you have only one stud (for half of a grab bar) than you can use something else (like that device) to support the other end.

Since not everyone can rip out a shower to install blocking, the choices are fairly limited. The ones I have used are nearly 10 years old and still holding up well. The 3M peel & stick is very durable. The weirdest part was drilling a 1.25 inch hole in a tile wall. But I understand your point.

Dom.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

... I gave him a "PERS" (Personal Emergency Response System) pendant, it " got lost"...

There are now devices such as the "Tile" that you can attach to items that make it easy to find commonly misplaced items at home (keys, PERS, cell phone, etc.) The "Tile" casts a signal across a 100 foot radius that you can find from your phone. The battery in each tile lasts about a year and is not (currently) replaceable. Each tile costs about $17.50

If you are like me and occasionally misplace important items, give them a try.
www.thetileapp.com
There is at least one similar competing product.

My Dad could still pull himself up, legs were weak, so we put a bar on the ceiling and a chain that dropped down with a handle. He could pull himself up from the toilet or sit down, and could hang on to step over the side of the tub. The bar was a couple feet long so he could slide the handle a bit. He got the idea from the hospital bed he was in, like the one below. He had a "S" hook on the handle so he could move it up or down on the chain. I think we used two shower curtains to close around the bar as it was under the curtain rod. It also helped that the toilet was across from the tub, you faced it as you sat down.

Code may specify that grab bars are to be installed horizontally or vertically but I installed mine on an angle adjacent to the toilet to catch studs in the existing wall. I didn't plan on it but it's actually easier to grab since you can grab it at a height that works for the individual.

Originally Posted by Marshall Brown

Code may specify that grab bars are to be installed horizontally or vertically but I installed mine on an angle adjacent to the toilet to catch studs in the existing wall. I didn't plan on it but it's actually easier to grab since you can grab it at a height that works for the individual.

Unfortunately, grabbing a grab bar which is at an angle also allows the grabber (the person) to slide down the grabbee (the bar) and, while it may break your fall, it will not provide the necessary stationary horizontal object to try keep on from falling ... but, yes, many people install grab bars at an angle because it is easier (the can find the studs) and, yes, it does help.

Also good to go online and check the latest code on the Americans with Disabilities to get the most recent guidelines on length, height, placement, etc. and at least try to get close to those requirements. Obviously quite a few home bathrooms don't match the dimensions specified.

Rick,

I do ADA inspections and my partner got certified to modify homes for senior to stay in place. In addition to grab bars, look for trip hazards in the home. Rugs that will move, step-ups, corners of furniture. In many homes we will enhance the lighting and add motion lights for hallways, utility rooms and stairwells. Large numbers of seniors will fall each year and have significant bone breaks. This starts a downward health trend that causes them to go into assisted living.

If they are living alone they will need the pendant. As a firefighter I have been to numerous calls where a senior has taken a fall and cannot reach a phone. By the time we get to them they have been laying on the floor for many hours. Many are hypothermic and dehydrated when we get there. When it gets to that point the families have to place them in assisted living. If they don't want to wear the pendant or lose it, take on a tour of the worst assisted living center in the area. I am sure that they will find it....

//Rick

Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino

Jerry,

Sometimes people need options. Those WingIt devices work, especially in tile walls. If you have only one stud (for half of a grab bar) than you can use something else (like that device) to support the other end.

Since not everyone can rip out a shower to install blocking, the choices are fairly limited. The ones I have used are nearly 10 years old and still holding up well. The 3M peel & stick is very durable. The weirdest part was drilling a 1.25 inch hole in a tile wall. But I understand your point.

Dom.

Lowe's sells a grab bar that can be attached to a smooth shower wall with suction cups. There is no need to drilling, and it holds just fine.

Notice that your are in GA. may want to check this resource for both construction and finiacial assistance; Georgia Home Access Program

Wish the best for your Dads' health and spirit getting along in the years ahead.

Originally Posted by Bob Hucker

Lowe's sells a grab bar that can be attached to a smooth shower wall with suction cups. There is no need to drilling, and it holds just fine.

Lowe's and Home Depot also sell corrugated, flexible, tailpieces for sinks and they work just fine ... as long as you think that not doing it to meet the code is "just fine".

*You* would trust *your* *life* to suctions cups? Really? Well, that would be "just fine" ...

Shop MHI 17-in White Suction Cup Grab Bar at Lowes.com

That does not meet any of the requirements for grab bars.

I just installed three grab bars, against the expectation that we might need to bring my mother-in-law into our home. Being a safety- and code-wonk, I researched them.
First question: where do we need them, locations, heights, etc.?
Second question: what specs do the bars themselves, and their mountings, have to meet?

1. ADA Design Standards have some specs, ICC A117.1 has more.

Here are the tedious details of what I did: I installed one alongside the downstairs toilet, with an unfinished utility room wall on the back side, at one end using a 2x backer on top of a 1x8 that was behind the drywall; a the other double-sistering lengths of 2x4 alongside a stud.
Next came the downstairs shower: ceramic tile over 1/2" cement board over studs--with brick on the other side.
I installed the second 33" up along the control wall, horizontally, into a 2x4 backer between studs at one end and into a 3x4 sistered onto a stud on the other end. This was in a closet, with goodly chunks of drywall removed and later restored.
The third went along the long wall of the shower, perpendicular to the control wall. I guessed where the studs were, used an 1/8" masonry bit through the grout, and missed them. I then took a 14AWG bare wire with a bend, stuck it in, and fished around till I hit them. I confirmed the location by drilling more holes in the grout. "The bloody beasts were 31 " on center.) I confirmed locations by using a plumb bob to locate the line, so I could drill the grout 12" away in the next space. Yep.
I installed a 32" bar along that wall at a modest angle so it ran from 33" up at the low end, near the control wall, to not quite 36" at the high end--within the ADA recommendations--by using the more-inside of the top and bottom mounting holes in each flange.

Suction cups would have been much simpler; and I wouldn't dare. Epoxy would have been slower but also far simpler, and more reliable than putting my faith in vacuum; ditto. Toggles, perhaps patent toggles, might have worked, bearing against most of an inch of cement board, thinset, and ceramic tile. But I trust going to structure. These are safety equipment, not just decoration. I cammed out of two of the stainless screws supplied, and I substituted star-drive coated deck screws. I trust those to hold.

2. However, the only U.S. product safety spec that includes testing is ASTM F446.

To the best of my knowledge, no NRTL lists and labels products as complying with ASTM F446. However, there are several manufacturers that claim ("self-certify") their products do comply.

IBC-Building
- 1110.2.3.3 Grab bars.
- - Grab bars shall comply with ICC A117.1, Section 609 and shall be provided iin accordance with Sections 1110.2.3.3.1 and 1110.2.3.3.2. In standard roll-in-type shower compartments, grab bars shall be provided on three walls. Where multiple grab bars are used, required horizontal grab bras shall be installed at the same height above the floor. Grab bars can be separate bars or one continuous bar.

From here ICC A117.1: (as best as I could type, it was a lot to type)
https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/ic...P4_Ch06_Sec609

- 609.1 General.
- - Grab bars in toilet facilities or bathing facilities shall comply with 609.


- 609.2 Cross section.
- - Grab bars shall have a cross section complying with 609.2.1 or 609.2.2.


(image - for image, see link above)
FIGURE 609.2.2 SIZE OF GRAB BARS


- 609.2.1 Circular cross section.
- - Grab bars with circular cross sections shall have an outside diameter of 1 1/4 inches (32 mm) minimum and 2 inches (51 mm) maximum.


- 609.2.2 Noncircular cross section.
- - Grab bars with noncircular cross sections shall have a cross section dimension of 2 inches (51 mm) maximum and a perimeter dimension of 4 inches (100 mm) minimum and 4.8 inches (120 mm) maximum.


- 609.3 Spacing.
- - The space between the wall and the grab bar shall be 1 1/2 inches (38 mm). The space between the grab bar and projecting objects below and at the ends shall be 1 1/2 inches (38 mm) minimum. The space between the grab bar and projecting objects above shall be 12 inches (305 mm) minimum.
- - - Exceptions:
- - - - 1. The space between the grab bars and shower controls, shower fittings, and other grab bars above shall be permitted to be 1 1/2 inches (38 mm) minimum.
- - - - 2. Recessed dispensers projecting from the wall 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) maximium measured from the face of the dispenser and complying with Section 604.7 shall be premitted within the 12-inch (305 mm) space above and the 1 1/2-inch (38 mm) spaces below and and the ends of the grab bar.


(image - for image, see link above)
FIGURE 609.3 SPACING OF GRAB BARS


- 609.4.1 General..
- - Grab bars shall be installed in a horizontal position, 33 inches (840 mm) minimum and 36 inches (915 mm) maximum above the finish floor measured to the top of the gripping surface or shall be installed as required by items 1 through 3.
- - - 1. The lower grab bar on the back wall of a bathtub shall comply with 607.4.1.1 or 607.4.2.1.
- - - 2. Vertical grab bars shall comply with Sections 604.5.1.2, 607.4.1.2.2, 607.4.2.2, and 608.3.1.2
- - - 3. Grab bars at water closets primarily for children?s use complying with 609.4.2.


- 609.4.2 Position of children's grab bars.
- - (blah, blah, blah - too much to type and not applicable here)


- 609.5 Surface hazards.
- Grab bars and any wall or other surfaces adjacent to grab bars shall be free of sharp or abrasive elements. Edges shall be rounded.


- 609.6 Fittings.
- - Grab bars shall not rotate within their fittings.


- 609.7 Installation.
- - Grab bars shall be installed in any manner that provides a gripping surface at the locations specified in this standard and does not obstruct the clear floor. Horizontal and vertical grab bars shall be permitted to be separate bars, a single piece bar, or a combination thereof.


- 609.8 Structural strength.
- - Allowable stresses shall not be exceeded for materials used when a vertical or horizontal force of 250 pounds (1112 N) is applied at any point on the grab bar, fastener, mounting device, or supporting structure.

Exactly, Jerry. Lots of specs, but no tests. Yeah, it feels smooth. Yeah, it doesn't rotate, well, when I grab on, anyway. Yeah, no sharp edges. I can measure location, I can measure diameter, I can measure how far it stands off from the wall. But withstand? One-time or repeated? Multiple directions? I don't want to make this stuff up.

Originally Posted by david shapiro

Lots of specs, but no tests.

David, no different than handrails and top rails for guards, same for the infill of guards - specs they are required to meet, but no testing.

The "testing" comes in when something happens and one fails, then the attorneys, experts, etc, get paid for a contractor's or manufacturer's errors.

If handrails and top rails of guards, and guard infills had to be tested, listed, and labeled, that would make those things more expensive, but not necessarily better ... ever seen listed and labeled items fails? I know you have. So testing, listing, and labeling are not failsafe guarantees of something doing what it is supposed to do.

I can measure location, I can measure diameter, I can measure how far it stands off from the wall. But withstand? One-time or repeated? Multiple directions?

Same with handrails, tops of guard rails, and guard rail infills.

"But withstand" I needs to.

"One-time or repeated?" Everytime. The code does not say "for one-time", that codes says it shall ... blah, blah, blah. Ten years later? The same code applies as when it was installed "it shall ... blah, blah, balh".

Multiple directions? it says so, yes.

For grab bars: "when a vertical or horizontal force of 250 pound" and it also says " is applied at any point on the grab bar, fastener, mounting device, or supporting structure"

For handrails and top rails of guards and guard infills: (underlining and bold are mine)
- TABLE R301.5MINIMUM UNIFORMLY DISTRIBUTED AND CONCENTRATED LIVE LOADS - - Guards 200 pounds notes h, i
- - Guard in-fill components note f 50 pounds note h
- - Handrails note d 200 pounds note h
- - - d. A single concentrated load applied in any direction at any point along the top. For a guard not required to serve as a handrail, the load need not be applied to the top element of the guard in a direction parallel to such element.
- - - f. Guard in-fill components (all those except the handrail), balusters and panel fillers shall be designed to withstand a horizontally applied normal load of 50 pounds on an area equal to 1 square foot. This load need not be assumed to act concurrently with any other live load requirement.
- - - h.Glazing used in handrail assemblies and guards shall be designed with a load adjustment factor of 4. The load adjustment factor shall be applied to each of the concentrated loads applied to the top of the rail, and to the load on the in-fill components. These loads shall be determined independent of one another, and loads are assumed not to occur with any other live load.
- - - i. Where the top of a guard system is not required to serve as a handrail, the single concentrated load shall be applied at any point along the top, in the vertical downward direction and in the horizontal direction away from the walking surface. Where the top of a guard is also serving as the handrail, a single concentrated load shall be applied in any direction at any point along the top. Concentrated load shall not be applied concurrently.

I don't want to make this stuff up.

You aren't making it up, you are constructing and installing it according to code.

My friend, I don't think we disagree; I do think we're talking slightly at cross-purposes.

Of course we've seen failures of listed products, and what I'd call failures of listed products where the safety standards' tests don't quite map onto the (instructions- and code-compliant) field use.

However, even where I install a product that to appearance is compliant with the standard, I look to product safety standards that incorporate testing specs to say whether samples of this switch should be put through 100 operations at 100% rated load or 5000 operations at 200% rated load. That does give me some assurance beyond my own ad hoc field testing. With a grab bar, the same is true. Ultimately, questions of compliance may come down to lawsuits, but that's after something bad happens, and something bad whose evidence doesn't get quashed as part of a settlement agreement.

Originally Posted by david shapiro

My friend, I don't think we disagree;

David, I completely agree with that part.

I do think we're talking slightly at cross-purposes.

I disagree with the above latter part. I don't think we are at cross-purposes, I think you are trying to testing, listing, and labeling to a 'finished item' (think entire NM cable wiring installation) versus the NM cable itself.

The grab bar and its installation is specified, like the comparisons I made using installations for handrails and guards are specified, as the installation requirements for NM cable are specified.

If a grab bar bends, then it would not meet the installation requirements.

Testing a grab bar mounting to a wood stud is going to be quite difficult as the wood stud itself varies in size, strength, grade, and the anchorages vary whether in the center of the stud or closer to the edge of the stud, and the grain of that particular stud.

I do see a way out of this conundrum to some extent (tongue firmly planted in cheek here): require that the backing for a grab bar be 1x lumber the length of the grab bar area plus one additional span and support beyond each end of the grab bar. Of course then there would be the issue of someone installing a grab bar which exceeded the minimum required length ... which would indicate that the backing go wall-to-wall, and because of the height range and the allowance for multiple grab bars, the backing would need to go from floor to ceiling ... just in case.

Obviously, that was an attempt at humor as there is no way such would be practical to do.

While one can test a manufactured switch or receptacle, testing a mounting to a Mother Nature grown wood stud would not result is repeatable results.

Or, one could require the installation of metal backing plates of specified gauge and steel as they would come with known anchoring strengths based on the anchor size and thread, which could then be specified ... similar to what is done in structures where fire ratings are concerned and the studs are metal studs. Thus the fastening of the metal backing plates to the metal studs will also be a known or calculable factor (not that installer actually pay attention to those things anyway).

The top line and bottom line is, to me, that you are comparing grapes to blueberries, and ending up with fruit salad.

I do respect your desires to wish for finite responsibilities and results, however, I guess I'm looking at it from a real world installation and use view.

Jerry, I think--think--this is the last message I'll post to this thread.

I quite agree that product tests in vitro, so to speak, are a different kettle of fruit salad than what an installer can do, and will give different results. Yes, the testing should map onto the results one can expect in the field, but you have made a cogent case demonstrating the variability in field installations, which should be greater than can be achieved in a lab with integrity, given the variety of field installers and settings, and the DOL expectation that at least NRTL personnel have specific competence in testing to standards.

This is why I far prefer to install a safety product that has been lab-tested and certified to an ANSI standard.

This said, I have loaded suspect MCCBs to ~135% labeled ampacity and recorded their time to tripping. This was not in a controlled environment matching UL489 specs, but I was glad to see the results. I did not test them for all the manifold other characteristics required in the standard, but this basic, basic question was especially important to me.

The same was true with the grab bars I installed. I pushed myself up in the air on them, with all my weight bearing on my doubled hands, and noticed no give, no distortion, as i held myself up. Okay, I'm a (non-kosher) shrimp. I had a woman who weighs almost twice what I do, but doesn't have the strength to suspend herself on them, push as much of her weight as she could on them at the same time, albeit not at the same point. Still no give. This suggested that both the bars and their means of support could serve. In one way, testing a product in vivo has the advantage.

Originally Posted by david shapiro

This suggested that both the bars and their means of support could serve. In one way, testing a product in vivo has the advantage.

David, given the installation requirements and conditions of use, you did essentially as I have for such tests: full (or as much as is safe or practical) body weight test and look for evidence of it either holding tight or not holding tight.

That, my friend, is about the most one can reasonably due.

Can I properly test a handrail in place (in vivo or in situ - I'm not sure eeither is actually correct) safely? Unlikely, at least not practically, under typical inspection sequences. Can I test a failed handrail in place after it failed? Unlikely as it's failure means it is no longer "in place", something about it failed and gave way.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

in place (in vivo or in situ - I'm not sure either is actually correct)

I do find in situ more apt, but then it would have to be contrasted with in laboratorium