Thread: Virginia Quashed Bill Allowing Handguns on Campuses

One of the sure-fire ways to get 33 people killed on a college campus is to force all the law abiding citizens to give up any means of self defense, could there be anything more stupid? Guess who was the only person on campus with a gun, you got it a whacked foreigner with no respect for our people or our laws, go figure.

Gun laws guarantee that law abiding citizens will stand defenseless while criminals are well armed at the very worse time, I would rather be judged by twelve then carried by six.



Virginia quashed bill allowing handguns on campuses
Tech spokesman celebrated 2006 defeat because it would help make campus safe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: April 16, 2007
3:15 p.m. Eastern

By Art Moore
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
Virginia state capitol

More than one year before today's unprecedented shooting rampage at Virginia Tech, the state's General Assembly quashed a bill that would have given qualified college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus.

At the time, Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker said he was happy to hear of the bill's defeat, according to the Roanoke Times.

"I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus," the Virginia Tech spokesman said.

At least 32 people were killed today at Virginia Tech in the worst campus shooting in U.S. history.

The proposal, House Bill 1572, was initiated by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League.

But the bill didn't pass its first stage, the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety.


Todd Gilbert

Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus.

Backers of the bill wanted to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The bill's sponsor, Gilbert, told WND that with today's tragedy still unfolding, he is uncomfortable commenting and cannot assert the university's policy in any way contributed to the shooting. But he said, nevertheless, it's clear it couldn't have stopped the attack.

"The one thing that this tragic event does illustrate is that there is not a single gun law, rule or regulation that will stop someone with this kind of evil intent from going about their business and taking life at will, if they are committed to doing that," Gilbert said.

While advocates of gun control often believe they are improving safety, they are depriving law-abiding citizens from defending themselves in dangerous situations, he contended.

"Had I been on campus today, and otherwise been entitled to carry firearms for protection and been deprived of that, I don't think words can describe how I would have felt, knowing I could have stopped something like this," Gilbert said.

People who are willing to jump through all the legal hoops necessary to get a weapons permit usually are not people society needs to worry about, he argued.

The suspect in today's shootings might have been a legal weapons holder, Gilbert said, but the law didn't prevent him from doing what he did.

In the spring of 2005, a Virginia Tech student who had a concealed handgun permit was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, the Roanoke paper reported.

Second Amendment groups questioned the university's authority, but the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police argued against guns on campus.

In June 2006, Virginia Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy that reaffirmed the school's ban.

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Joe,

Are you trying to say that this *WOULD NOT* have happened if everyone was allowed to walk around carrying a gun?

Your logic is flawed, my friend.

No one knows for sure how things would have unfolded if law abiding citizens weren't disarmed on college campuses, someone might have been able to stop this SOB, but since our killer was the only one armed we will never know.

That is the exact reason why screw ups like this don't pull this kind of crap in any WalMart in Florida 1/2 the customers at any one time are packing enough heat to take out a small division let alone one a-hole with a gun.

Guns should be outlawed on every school campus, the only folks that should be able to have them legally on a school campus should be the campus police.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Guns should be outlawed on every school campus, the only folks that should be able to have them legally on a school campus should be the campus police.

That kind of thinking gets you 33 students killed, atta boy. When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.

McCain Backs Gun Rights After Shootings

Apr 16 08:42 PM US/Eastern
By ELIZABETH WHITE
Associated Press Writer

LAREDO, Texas (AP) - Sen. John McCain says the shooting rampage at Virginia Tech does not change his view that the Constitution guarantees everyone the right to carry a weapon.

"We have to look at what happened here, but it doesn't change my views on the Second Amendment, except to make sure that these kinds of weapons don't fall into the hands of bad people," McCain said Monday in response to a question.

The Arizona Republican, who was campaigning in this Texas-Mexico border city, said he didn't know the details of the attacks at Virginia Tech.

"I do believe in the constitutional right that everyone has, in the Second Amendment to the Constitution, to carry a weapon," he said. "Obviously we have to keep guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens."

McCain and other presidential hopefuls issued statements expressing shock and grief over the attacks.

"As a parent, I am filled with sorrow for the mothers and fathers and loved ones struggling with the sudden, unbearable news of a lost son or daughter, friend or family member," read a statement by Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y.

Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, a Republican, called it a "day of national tragedy, when we lost some of our finest to a senseless act."

Democratic candidate John Edwards said in a statement: "We are simply heartbroken by the deaths and injuries suffered at Virginia Tech. We know what an unspeakable, life-changing moment this is for these families and how, in this moment, it is hard to feel anything but overwhelming grief, much less the love and support around you. But the love and support is there."

Republican candidate Mitt Romney said: "The entire nation grieves for the victims of this terrible tragedy that took place today on the campus of Virginia Tech. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims, their families and the entire Virginia Tech community. Our full support is behind the law enforcement officials who are involved with stabilizing the situation and conducting an investigation."

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., said the nation is mourning the dead and praying for their families and for the wounded.

"Today, we are a grieving and shocked nation. Violence has once again taken too many young people from this world."

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

That kind of thinking gets you 33 students killed, atta boy & home inspectors should be licensed. When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.

Oh, I believe in the right to bear arms. Just not at any College, University, High School, etc.

I even have an NRA card signed by Charleston Heston!

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Oh, I believe in the right to bear arms. Just not at any College, University, High School, etc.

I even have an NRA card signed by Charleston Heston!

Here you go Scott, someone you might resonate well with, hopefully you won't need her help in a firefight.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Monday, April 16, 2007

Statement of Senator Dianne Feinstein On the Mass Shooting at Virginia Tech



“My heart nearly stopped when I heard that more than 30 people had been killed at Virginia Tech today.

In an instant, the hopes and dreams of students were destroyed by a cowardly and terrible act of insane violence. My deepest condolences go to all those touched by this violence.

This mass shooting will be seared into our memories, alongside Columbine, 101 California, the University of Texas Clock Tower, and the shooting at a McDonald’s in San Ysidro, California.

It is my deep belief that shootings like these are enabled by the unparalleled ease with which people procure weapons in this country. And I believe this will reignite the dormant effort to pass common-sense gun regulations in this nation.”

Senator Feinstein is the author of the 1994 federal Assault Weapons Ban, which prohibited the manufacture and importation of 19-types of military-style assault weapons and dozens of others by physical characteristic.

The ban lapsed on September 13, 2004, despite the fact that a clear majority in the Senate voted for extension of the ban in February 2004.

Too bad for Feinstein the 33 weren't killed with an assault weapon, just a couple of run-of-the-mill handguns.

Criminals will always have weapons.

The only thing that matters right now is that 33 kids are dead and 33 families will never be the same again. There is no guarantee that an allowed handgun law for students on campus would have prevented this.

While a permit to carry is obviously better than no permit in tragic circumstances like this, that permit does not include extensive training on how to deal with deranged individuals loaded up with a cache of weapons and no fear of death.

Bills like the one referenced are quashed for the common good. Meaning, college students do not need guns on campus. There is enough alcohol and testosterone flying around college campuses as it is. Guns and bullets do not mix well those ingredients. It is unreasonable to assert that the state of Virginia should have had the foresight to see that such a broad swath of violence would occur and that allowing students to arm themselves would be the solution.

It is easy to second guess. The real task is figuring out how to prevent things like this from ever happening in the first place. Gun control is not the answer as it only affects law-abiding citizens who are responsible gun owners. Like Scott said, the criminals will always have weapons. Even if legislation were passed, it wouldn't make the guns that are out there disappear and the criminals most certainly are not going to turn their guns in.

Nick,

You can't have it both ways, either the school guarantees the safety of their students or the school allows the students to defend themselves there is no third choice.

Do you think this won't happen again, everyone knows that they can be a big man on campus when they are the only one armed and dangerous.

The killer here was a foreign student and had no business owning a gun in the united states you can't believe you can stop this can you?

People need to be allowed to protect themselves from crap life daily dishes out, take off your rose colored glasses and smell the coffee.

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

. . . I would rather be judged by twelve then carried by six.

So you are assuming you will die after being judged by the twelve? (First be judged. THEN be carried.)

Perhaps you meant to say, ". . . I would rather be judged by twelve THAN carried by six."

then - next in order of time

than - in comparison with

Amazing how one little letter completely changes the meaning of a word and a sentence.

Joe, I never said this could be stopped.

If you think you need to carry a gun to feel safe, then you are either paranoid or living in and frequenting the wrong areas. I hunt and am pro-gun but the last thing I want to do is carry a gun with me every day. When I feel I need to carry a gun to feel safe is when I need to make some changes in my life.

You may be fine with living amongst other gun carrying civilians who most likely lack the proper training for safe handling and use of guns. But most people are not. Would allowing guns on campus have prevented this? Most likely no. And that is because they are college students who are not on a 24/7 lookout for armed gunmen. When bullets flew during the first attack, I'm sure the last thing on any of those kids' minds was how they could take out the gunman.

I do agree with Joe on this one.

I am very pro gun/carry. I do believe that a person should have the right to protect themselves wherever they are.

With that being said"

I'm sure the last thing on any of those kids' minds was how they could take out the gunman.

In my opinion, I don't think anyone is looking to be the next Rambo when the shooting starts. I think it is more of a question of the shooting starts, everyone craps their pants and and after diving for cover and cowering down under a desk or whatever, the person now has the ability to retrieve his/her weapon and at least be able to defend themselves from the assailant and not let the SOB just calmly walk up to them and execute them without any chance of survival.

That's my point of view.

I know it is not shared with a lot of others, being a victim of a violent crime is a terrible tragedy. Being totally helpless and at the complete and total mercy of a madman killing innocent people is a bigger tragedy.

Florida has some of the best gun laws on the books for it's citizens, but it too does not allow caring of weapons/guns into colleges/universities.

I think that the aftermath of this tragedy will force a lot of states to rethink their position on this.

OK, I'm done for now. You all can beat me up, I'm unarmed

IMHO

The gun carry issue reminds me of a field trip I went on with my daughter.

We went to a government facility where all of the vehicles had to be searched. While we were standing in line to get I.D. badges an officer came in carefully holding a yellowish green fluorescent transparent orange tipped cap gun. He was holding by the handle like it was a nickle plated snub nose 38.
The owner of the $1.97 cap gun asked him to just dispose of it.

When I got back into my truck I thought of all the weapons I had that would be far worse; a tire iron, a 4d cell mag lite, a box cutter etc........

The point is, we seem to go nuts over anything that even looks like a gun.
I suppose we could make some sort of holster for a tire iron, but it would make more since to carry a concealed hand gun(not in a heavily guarded gov. facility) that no one knows that you have.

From what I understand, in our state you can take a course to become certified to carry a concealed weapon. The law is very strict, it must be concealed at all times. If you draw your weapon it had darn sure be with good reason or you'll not likely own a gun ever again. This is definitely for law abiding citizens. Criminals are going to carry without such certification and strict guidelines.

If I'm sitting beside a law abiding citizen that may or may not have a concealed gun, who really cares, I'm not thinking about that. But if some nut locks us all in a room and starts to shoot I hope to God that some law abiding citizen whips out a gun and takes him down.
As disturbing as it may be to some, this is the only logical way to save lives in this situation. In our day to day lives the last thing you would expect is for some nut to open fire. Without any fore warning there is no possible way for law enforcement to respond in time.

Sorry to say but if I have to carry a gun to feel safe, I would be looking for another area to live and work in.

The pretend gun can be used to fool people into thinking it was a real gun, possibly even giving up their real gun in a hostage situation. That's the difference between a toy gun and a tire iron, box cutter, pool stick, etc.

Second Ammendment: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

It refers to an oranized militia at the state level. I think it has been twisted by the gun manufacturer lobbyists and the NRA. That's my opinion. The countries with stronger gun control laws and less guns have much lower murder and violent crime rates. It's tragic that it takes a bunch of dead white college kids for anyone to talk about it, but their deaths won't make a dent in the national statistics at the end of the year. It's become an accepted part of our culture that something like this will happen once a year. Makes for riveting news for an evening or two, and then on to the next big thing.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Sorry to say but if I have to carry a gun to feel safe, I would be looking for another area to live and work in.

Safety is an illusion, just because a place looks safe like a college campus for instance has no bearing on reality. The simple fact is the safer you feel the more venerable you are. I take an active role in my protection and pack everyday and everywhere it is legal and will continue to do so for the rest of my life. I would suggest that each and everyone follow my example and take responsibility for your own safety so that others do not have to risk their lives to protect and defend you or your family in a time of grave crisis from some armed wing-nut.

I would like to see each & every teacher in America being armed & trained in light weapon tactical protection, had that been the case I am sure there would not have been 33 dead at VT.

No doubt the students & faculty of VT felt very safe seconds prior to the first shot, then feeling save was replaced by fear & dread knowing you were unarmed and unable to protect yourself. Is there really any good reason to allow our children and teachers to be sitting ducks? Does anyone really believe it is possible to keep firearms out of the hands of the insane?

Va. gunman ID’d as student
Student’s writings raised red flags; 33 killed, 12 stable in hospitals
MSNBC and NBC News
Updated: 1:45 p.m. ET April 17, 2007

BLACKSBURG, Va. - A 23-year-old senior from South Korea whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school’s counseling service was behind the massacre of 30 people locked inside a university classroom building in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history, the university said Tuesday.

Ballistics tests also found that one of the guns used in that attack was also used in a shooting two hours earlier at a dormitory that left two people dead at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Virginia State Police said.

Police identified the shooter as Cho Seung-Hui (pronounced Choh Suhng-whee), of Centreville, Va., who was a senior in the English Department at Virginia Tech. Cho, a resident alien who immigrated to the United States from South Korea in 1992, lived on campus in Harper Residence Hall.

The bloodbath ended with Cho’s suicide, bringing the death toll from two separate shootings — first at the dormitory, then in a classroom building — to 33 and stamping the campus in the picturesque Blue Ridge Mountains with unspeakable tragedy.

Note listed gunman’s grievances
Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university’s English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department’s director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as “troubled.”

“There was some concern about him,” Rude told The Associated Press. “Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it’s creative or if they’re describing things, if they’re imagining things or just how real it might be. But we’re all alert to not ignore things ike this.”

She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when or what the outcome was. Rude refused to release any of his writings or his grades, citing privacy laws.

NBC News’ Pete Williams reported that police had found a note in which Cho listed “random grievances,” but few other details were immediately available. That seemed in keeping for a young man who apparently left little impression in the Virginia Tech community.

Cho’s fellow residents of Harper Hall said few people knew the gunman, who kept to himself.

“He can’t have been an outgoing kind of person,” Meredith Daly, 19, of Danville, Va., told MSNBC.com’s Bill Dedman.

Stephen Scott, a freshman engineering student from Marlton, N.J., said police and FBI agents went through the dorm Monday night showing a picture of Cho and trying to find anybody who recognized or knew him. He did not know whether they were successful.

‘Very quiet, always by himself’
In Centreville, a suburb of Washington where Cho’s family lived in an off-white, two-story townhouse, people who knew Cho concurred that he kept to himself.

“He was very quiet, always by himself,” said Abdul Shash, a neighbor. Shash said Cho spent a lot of his free time playing basketball and would not respond if someone greeted him. He described the family as quiet.

Rod Wells, a postal worker, said that characterization of Cho did not fit the man’s parents, who, he described as “always polite, always kind to me, very quiet, always smiling. Just sweet, sweet people.”

“I talk to particularly everybody here,” Wells told NBC News. “So I guess nobody had any intimation that he was like that. I don’t think the parents did, because they were quite the opposite.”

Cho graduated in 2003 from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., said Jack Dale, superintendent of the Fairfax County schools.

“I want to express the devastation that we in Fairfax County Public Schools all feel about the news from Blacksburg,” Dale said in a statement. “... This is a time for families and friends to grieve.”

Dale said the school system had called in psychologists and social workers to work with students and employees who may have been affected by “these terrible events.”

South Korea’s Foreign Ministry expressed its condolences, saying that there was no known motive for the shootings and that South Korea hoped the tragedy would not “stir up racial prejudice or confrontation.”

Ballistics evidence points to student
Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police, said it was reasonable to assume that Cho was the shooter in both attacks but that the link was not yet definitive.

“There’s no evidence of any accomplice at either event, but we’re exploring the possibility,” he said.

Two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been officially announced, said Cho’s fingerprints were found on the two guns used in the shootings. The serial numbers had been filed off, the officials said.

Law enforcement officials told NBC News that Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for the purchase of a Glock 9mm pistol in March. As a permanent legal resident, Cho was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of any felony criminal charges.

Cho renewed his green card in late 2003 and would have undergone a background check at that time, immigration officials told NBC affiliate WSLS-TV of Roanoke. If a criminal record had shown up then, officials would have denied the renewal, they said.

At least 26 people were taken to hospitals after the second attack, some of them seriously injured. Twelve students remained in hospitals in stable condition Tuesday, and most were expected to be released soon, NBC News’ Michelle Kosinski reported from Montgomery Regional Medical Center.

After the shootings, all campus entrances were closed, and classes were canceled for the rest of the week. The university set up a spot for families to reunite with their children.

President Bush planned to attend a memorial service Tuesday afternoon at the university’s football stadium, the White House said, and Gov. Timothy Kaine was flying back to Virginia from Tokyo for the 2 p.m. convocation.

‘He didn’t say a single word’
Wielding two handguns and carrying multiple clips of ammunition, Cho opened fire about 7:15 a.m. on the fourth floor of West Ambler Johnston, a high-rise coeducational dorm, then stormed Norris Hall, a classroom building a half-mile away on the other side of the 2,600-acre campus. Some of the doors at Norris Hall were found chained from the inside, apparently by the gunman.

Two people died in a dorm room, and 31 others were killed in Norris Hall, including Cho, who put a bullet in his head.

Students jumped from windows in panic.

Trey Perkins, who was sitting in a German class in Norris Hall, told MSNBC-TV on Monday that the gunman barged into the room about 9:50 a.m. and opened fire for about a minute and a half, squeezing off 20 to 30 shots.

The gunman first shot the professor in the head and then fired on the students, Perkins said, who added: “He didn’t say a single word the whole time.”

“He didn’t say, ‘Get down.’ He didn’t say anything. He just started shooting,” said Perkins, 20, of Yorktown, Va., a sophomore studying mechanical engineering. “I got on the ground, and I was just thinking, like, there’s no way I’m going to survive this. All I could keep thinking of was my mom.”

Students angry at university’s response
Students said there were no public-address announcements after the first shots. Many said they learned of the first shooting in an e-mail message that arrived shortly before the gunman struck again.

University President Charles Steger defended the university’s conduct, saying authorities believed that the shooting at the dorm was a domestic dispute and mistakenly thought the gunman had fled the campus.

Steger emphasized that the university closed off the dorm after the first attack and decided to rely on e-mail and other electronic means to spread the word, but he said that with 11,000 people driving onto campus first thing in the morning, it was difficult to get the word out.

He said that before the e-mail went out, the university began telephoning resident advisers in the dorms and sent people to knock on doors. Students were warned to stay inside and away from the windows.

“We can only make decisions based on the information you had at the time. You don’t have hours to reflect on it,” Steger said.

Previous rampages
Until Monday, the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard drove his pickup truck into a Luby’s Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.

The massacre Monday took place four days before the eighth anniversary of the Columbine High School bloodbath near Littleton, Colo. On April 20, 1999, two teenagers killed 12 fellow students and a teacher before taking their own lives.

Previously, the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history was a rampage in 1966 at the University of Texas at Austin, where Charles Whitman climbed the clock tower and opened fire. He killed 16 people before police shot him to death.

Police said that there had been bomb threats on campus over the past two weeks but that they had not determined a link to the shootings.

It was second time in less than a year that the campus was closed because of a shooting.

In August, the opening day of classes was canceled when an escaped jail inmate allegedly killed a hospital guard off campus and fled to the Tech area. A sheriff’s deputy was killed just off campus. The accused gunman, William Morva, faces capital murder charges.

At a hastily arranged service Monday night at Blacksburg Presbyterian Church, the Rev. Susan Verbrugge gazed out at about 150 bowed heads.

“Death has come trundling into our life, a sudden and savage entity laying waste to our hearts and making desolate our minds,” Verbrugge said during a prayer. “We need now the consolation only you can give.”

© 2007 MSNBC InteractivePete Williams and Michelle Kosinski of NBC News, Bill Dedman and Alex Johnson of MSNBC.com, Chris Jansing of MSNBC-TV and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

URL: Va. gunman ID’d as student - Massacre at Virginia Tech - MSNBC.com

Scott,

Sorry to say but if I have to carry a gun to feel safe, I would be looking for another area to live and work in.

The problem is that violence like this can break out anywhere in our country without warning. I live in a nice quite neighborhood and we have a very low crime area but that does not mean some kook will not shoot up the shoppers in our local Publix grocery store.

I do have a license to carry in Fl as well as about 30 other states that share Florida's reciprocity laws, however, I do not carry a gun every where I go every day nor do I feel threatened in the places I do go. There are times that I will carry if I have to go somewhere I don't like.

The hospital I work at at night is in the "inner city" which has all the crime and problems of any other "inner city". I do not carry a gun with me at work. No need to. But I do keep one in my vehicle because I am forced to drive through some bad areas of town at 11:00 PM at night.

I just prefer the ability to choose when and where I may want to carry if I feel the need.

There is no easy solution and both sides have valid points. But putting guns in young hands is not the answer. In fact it may contribute to many more deaths. When I was young I was very short tempered.

I am sure you have seen the video's of students ripping apart everything in site after a sports event. Could you imagine if they had guns.

And where should it end. Should we arm our high school students also. Shootings happen there too.

I think that heavily camera surveillance should be installed. It's not a cure all but it could of been nipped in the bud after the first two shootings. They could of tracked the wacko before the next building.

As a Canadian, I am always interested in listening in on a debate about gun control. We have accepted gun control here and I think most Canadians like it that way.

We have had some terrible shooting incidents in our schools, so gun control certainly doesn't do much to stop them.

I understand why a responsible, mature person might want to carry a handgun. However, I would not want to send my children to school with a gun or to a school where other children are carrying guns.

Out of curiosity, are there any documented cases of an armed citizen stopping an incident like this?

Check this out for some real data rather than just opinion.
Interview with John Lott, author of More Guns, Less Crime

Jim

Hot off the presses... Nagasaki city mayor is shot dead!

The mayor of the Japanese city of Nagasaki has died several hours after being shot, police said.

Itcho Ito, 61, was shot at least twice in the back in the center of the city just before 2000 (1100 GMT) on Tuesday, and died in hospital on Wednesday.

Police said they had arrested a man, who was allegedly a member of one of Japan's leading organized crime groups.

Japanese media said the murder appeared to be linked to an alleged controversy over public works contracts.

Mr Ito was campaigning for re-election to a fourth term as mayor of Nagasaki, 980km (610 miles) south-west of Tokyo on the island of Kyushu.

Police identified the suspect as Tetsuya Shiroo, who was arrested on the spot.

Television pictures showed police struggling with Mr Shiroo and pushing him into a police car.

Paramedics treated Mr Ito on the ground outside a train station in the center of Nagasaki before he was taken to hospital in an ambulance.

Doctors worked for several hours to keep him alive but he died at 0228 (1728 GMT on Tuesday).

One of the bullets had reached his heart, hospital officials said.


Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Nagasaki city mayor is shot dead

What is the big friggin' deal you say... Well, Japan has some of the strictest gun laws in the world, I 'm not even sure if their cops carry guns. Just goes to show you that gun control like the war on terror, and the war on some drugs & home inspector licensing is mostly a failure and a waste of time & effort. Personal responsibility & integrity is the answer to most problems not government intervention.

A few years ago, eight Wisconsin hunters were shot by a trespasser on their property on the opening day of deer season. Six of them died. The hunters were armed and unfortunately, their guns did them no good.

You can't stop a lunatic. They possess a totally different mindset from the average person. They shoot without remorse and have already made up their minds that you are going to die before you even realize your life is in danger.

Originally Posted by David Wood

Out of curiosity, are there any documented cases of an armed citizen stopping an incident like this?

Recently a crazed gunman shot and killed several shoppers at Salt Lake City's Trolly Square was engaged and pinned down by an armed off-duty policeman until police arrived. This armed citizen's actions unquestionably saved lives.

Talovic motive elusive

Isolating reason for actions is tricky, chief says

Sulejman Talovic may have simply snapped.

"That's what it looks like at this point," Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank says. "Something in his makeup, his experience, everything else, caused him to think that this was a way to deal with his problems or emotions."

In an interview with the Deseret Morning News, Burbank acknowledged that the motive for Talovic's homicidal rampage at the Trolley Square mall may be something that the killer took to his grave.

"I think at the end of the day, we will have an idea of contacts and influences in his life," Burbank said Friday. "My fear is we're not going to be able to point to any one thing and say, 'This is what caused him to do what he did."'

Detectives have been able to eliminate a number of potential motives. Police have questioned schoolmates, co-workers, family and friends of the 18-year-old to gain insight into his life.

"I think it will be a collective of all of these influences that may have led him down this road," Burbank said. "But what makes an individual choose that, such a violent act and such an apparently random act?"

Profile of a loner

Homicide detectives and FBI agents have been building a profile of Talovic. A picture is emerging of a quiet "loner guy" who didn't interact with a lot of people. One of the biggest influences in Talovic's life appears to be his childhood in war-scarred Bosnia, the chief said.

"Some of the things he experienced and may have seen and been involved in. I think coming to a new country, being a refugee, trying to fit into schools, (the) language barrier," Burbank said. "All of these things go into that. You never know how that affects an individual."

Police said it appears Talovic had very little access to a computer. There was no video-game system in his home. Authorities don't believe he had any links to gangs or was trying to join one.

Burbank said they also do not believe there are any links to terrorism. To be sure, the chief said the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force ran Talovic's name through national security databases to determine if there were any possible ties.

"We're not seeing any of that," he said.

Numerous interviews have not produced any evidence that anyone even knew what Talovic was plotting. Salt Lake City police said the shooting appears to be completely random. Talovic had no connection to his victims or even the mall itself.

"It could have been something he decided that day or something he decided a year ago," Burbank said.

The only one who apparently had some kind of clue is a 17-year-old Bosnian refugee living in Amarillo, Texas. Monika (who asked the Deseret Morning News not to use her last name) had an over-the-phone relationship with Talovic. The night before the Trolley Square massacre, she spoke with him. Talovic told Monika she was going to be mad at him the next day.

"And I was like, 'So what does it involve?' He goes, 'It involves everything but you,"' she recalled.

Killing spree

On Feb. 12, Talovic worked his regular shift from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. at Aramark Uniform Services, an industrial laundry facility. He rolled up recently cleaned floor mats. Talovic had been on the job since December, working as a production-line general laborer.

"He pretty much stayed to himself," Aramark general manager Trent Thorn said in a February interview.

After work, Talovic went home.

His father, Suljo Talovic, told the Deseret Morning News in an earlier interview that he came home from his construction job and encountered his son. They both went to shower.

"I go in bathroom, he go other bathroom," he said in broken English.

Sulejman then went into his bedroom while his father watched TV in the living room. When the news broke about the Trolley Square shootings, Suljo Talovic said he looked outside and noticed his son's car was gone.

Sulejman Talovic parked his green Mazda 626 in the Trolley Square parking terrace. Wearing a brown overcoat, a bandolier of shotgun shells around his waist and a backpack full of ammunition, the young man stepped out of his car and encountered Jeffrey Walker, 52, and his 16-year-old son Alan "AJ" Walker.

Armed with a 12-gauge shotgun and a .38-caliber handgun, Talovic raised the shotgun toward the Walkers.

"My dad said, 'Oh my gosh,"' AJ recalled in an interview with the Deseret Morning News last week. "He did it so quickly."

AJ was shot in the head and ankle. His father was shot in the back, shoulder and head. Jeffrey Walker was killed.

Talovic moved closer to the mall, wounding Shawn Munns, 34. Inside the mall, he killed Vanessa Quinn, 29, outside the Bath and Body Works store. Moving into the Cabin Fever card and novelty shop, he killed Teresa Ellis, 29; Brad Frantz, 24; and Kirsten Hinckley, 15. Hinckley's mother, Carolyn Tuft, 44, was wounded. So was Stacy Hanson, 53, who remains hospitalized.

Burbank said Talovic may not have been very experienced with the guns.

"From the distance that you are, you don't have to be pretty good," he said.

The police chief confirmed to the Deseret Morning News that Talovic did indeed shoot — and hit people — with the .38-caliber handgun. He would not be more specific, saying it was out of respect for the victims.

Within three minutes, police said Talovic had killed five people and wounded four others. It was then that he encountered off-duty Ogden police officer Ken Hammond, who was having dinner with his wife at Trolley Square. He got into a shootout with Talovic until Salt Lake City police officers arrived.

"We put ourselves at risk. We place officers in harm's way in order to protect the public," Burbank said. "That's what happened. As the gunfire happened, he (Sgt. Andy Oblad) walked towards the gunfire."

Talovic was cornered inside the Pottery Barn Kids store, where he shot at the officers.

"He shot no one after the officers arrived," the chief said.

Talovic swore at the officers just before he was killed.

Looking back on the shooting, Burbank said that if the police hadn't responded so quickly, the death toll would have been much higher.

"Had he gotten into one of the restaurants or movie theater ..., there's no question given what he did in the first three minutes of it that he would have continued," the chief said. "It's one of those things that he gave no indication that he would have stopped. As he encountered people, he shot them or shot at them."

The weapons

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has been investigating where Talovic got the guns used in his killing spree. The 12-gauge shotgun was purchased legally about five weeks after his 18th birthday. The .38-caliber weapon was originally purchased out of state and then stolen. It changed hands several times, and then Talovic acquired it last summer, when he was 17.

Three people are being investigated in connection with the handgun. While police believe they did not know that the gun was going to be used in the mall massacre, Burbank said criminal charges are likely.

"We want to hold these people accountable for their part of it," he said.

The U.S. Attorney's Office in Utah would not comment on whether it planned to seek a federal grand jury indictment. The ATF is expected to present a case to federal prosecutors soon.

Even after leads are exhausted, police will still investigate any new leads that come in the future. Burbank wants a report prepared by homicide detectives and released to help give some closure to the victims and the public at large. He gave no timeline for when that report would be released.

However, the most glaring omission will likely be why Talovic committed mass murder.

"Ultimately," Burbank said, "his motive may have died with him."

Totally different situation. He may have been a civilian at the time but he was a cop with the training and skills to handle that type of situation. Everyday people do not possess the skills to disarm or take out a deranged gunman.

Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski

Totally different situation. He may have been a civilian at the time but he was a cop with the training and skills to handle that type of situation. Everyday people do not possess the skills to disarm or take out a deranged gunman.

It is not a totally different situation. And who said anything about disarming the guy or taking him out? This off-duty cop "engaged" the gunman until cops arrived.

It was then that he encountered off-duty Ogden police officer Ken Hammond, who was having dinner with his wife at Trolley Square. He got into a shootout with Talovic until Salt Lake City police officers arrived.

I would rather have a gunman "engaged" than continuing his killing spree.

"Everyday people do not possess the skills to disarm or take out a deranged gunman."

I do not carry a gun myself, but what skills should you possess if you are locked in a room with 30 or so other people and some one is shooting at you?

Shooting back should come natural.

I have never used a fire extinguisher but if I'm in a room thats on fire I'm not going to wait for the fire department to show up because they are properly trained and I'm not

There is no way in this situation for law enforcment to respond . There is just not enough time.

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

That kind of thinking gets you 33 students killed, atta boy.

So, YOU ARE SAYING that those 33 people would not have been killed if everyone was allowed to carry guns.

You miss the logic that misguided souls go out and shoot people and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with who is allowed to, or not allowed to, carry guns.

Let me follow your logic though a bit here ...

If everyone was allowed to drive a car, cars would not be used to kill people ... no, wait ... that's not true, people are allowed to drive cars and people still kill people with cars.

Okay, if everyone was allowed to carry knives, knives would not be used to kill people ... no, wait ... that's not true, people are allowed to carry knives and people still kill people with knives.

I'll try this, if people were allowed to drink, they would not drink and kill people ... no, wait ... that's not true, people are allowed to drink and people still kill people when they drink.

Maybe this ... Joe, your logic is not logic, just a terrorist with a gun.

That's a good analogy, Kevin. You don't have to be a fireman to use a fire extinguisher to try to contain a fire and maybe keep it from spreading into a full-blown conflagration.

Me's think Joe needs anger management classes. His post on lic. and this is going to make him go postal one day. `

Good reason why some should not carry guns!

"I do not carry a gun myself, but what skills should you possess if you are locked in a room with 30 or so other people and some one is shooting at you?"

Thinking clearly, reacting without putting others in more danger, thinking about the path of your shots and whether or not you may accidentally hit somebody else.

"Shooting back should come natural."

Maybe for some but by and large, most people will crap their pants, hide anywhere, and hope they get to see their loved ones again. I personally have never had live rounds wizz by me but I'm fairly confident it would take some time for me to get myself together before I could think about exchanging fire. The shooter has already made up his mind that you are dead before you even know you need to think about defending yourself and others. Any body in this situation is immediately playing against a very stacked deck.

"I have never used a fire extinguisher but if I'm in a room thats on fire I'm not going to wait for the fire department to show up because they are properly trained and I'm not."

A fire is not a bullet wizzing by you. I think anybody's reaction would be to put out a fire if the can. Most people are not looking to engage a gunman as they are too busy taking cover.

Guys, I'm not saying people should not get involved and try to take charge when chances for help in a timely manner don't exist. If somebody wants to carry a gun legally, I'm fine with it. If that person can use that gun to put a bullet in the head of a madman intent on killing innocent people, I'm all for it. I love it when I see video of a store clerk pulling a gun or bat on a robber in his store and refusing to be a victim. But arming all civilians is not the cure all that some think it to be.

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Me's think Joe needs anger management classes. His post on lic. and this is going to make him go postal one day. `

Good reason why some should not carry guns!

Sorry to burst your tiny bubble, it ain't the vocal ones who go postal, it's the quiet lurkers & loners with nothing to live for that will snuff out your miserable life.

Yeah too bad that you and the small-bus logic crew you ride with don't get to make the rules. Here in Florida if you are not a criminal you can't be denied a CCW permit, maybe that is why us Floridians are so polite... you never know who is packing what.

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

Here in Florida if you are not a criminal you can't be denied a CCW permit, maybe that is why us Floridians are so polite... you never know who is packing what.

I've never heard Floridians called "polite", I thought we ranked (pun intended) right there next to Neu Yoorrkers ('cause that's where most of us are from).

Ah, I understand now! Everyone from New York that wanted to carry a gun all their life move to Florida.

No, Scott,
New York has an age limit. When people reach a certain age New York forces them to move to Florida. There are so many New Yorkers in Florida now, most of Florida is considered a Borough of NYC. Miami, however, remains a suburb of Cuba.

I hate to seem so negative about Florida, but it's their fault. They hogged all the good Gulf Coast beaches. As a Texas Gulf Coaster, it's my duty to hate them until they give us some of that sand back. Whar's mah gun?

"I'm fairly confident it would take some time for me to get myself together before I could think about exchanging fire."

I've a situation like this a lot of thought because I have been shot.
I had a 9mm go right through the gut, it missed all of the important stuff.
Thats as far as I care to go into that story.
One thing I did gain from that is, don't get shot again.

I didn't really like it. I've always thought since then that if in a situation where I'm being fired upon I would do anything I could to avoid being shot.
Now, I cant say I would fire with a steady hand or not.

Originally Posted by Kevin VanderWarf

"Now, I cant say I would fire with a steady hand or not."

That my friends is the true meaning of gun control... Simply hit what you are aiming at.

For me, in times of crisis everything seems to slow down and become crystal clear, it is very doubtful that I would miss my target. I get shakey after the crisis has passed and the what-if realization hits home. BTW sorry for your ordeal, glad you pulled through.

For me, in times of crisis everything seems to slow down and become crystal clear

So Joe your saying you have been shot at ?
Did you fire back?

If you haven't been shot at then that phrase don't mean squat.

Ive been shot at and I have been stabbed. Nothing to brag about.
It usually happens so fast you don't even have time to react.
(everything seems to slow down) yeah when your laying there with a cap in your arse

All that heroic crap flies out the window when the crap hits the fan.

Scott, looks like you might be moving again.

Tennessee moves to allow guns in public buildings
By News Sentinel staff
April 18, 2007


NASHVILLE — In a surprise move, a House panel voted today to repeal a state law that forbids the carrying of handguns on property and buildings owned by state, county and city governments — including parks and playgrounds.

"I think the recent Virginia disaster — or catastrophe or nightmare or whatever you want to call it — has woken up a lot of people to the need for having guns available to law-abiding citizens," said Rep. Frank Niceley, R-Strawberry Plains. "I hope that is what this vote reflects."

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

Scott, looks like you might be moving again.

It surprised everyone! This Knee jerk reaction was done by a House panel or committee. It is very doubtful that it will pass.

I live in Spring Hill, TN (Williamson County, TN) about thirty miles South of Nashville. Nashville proper has some problems, just like any large city.

Spring Hill is fairly safe township with a population of around 24,000 (in 1997 the population was 5,800). Last murder happened in 2004 and that was when a husband walked in on his wife while she was entertaining a friend! We did have a Drive Off from a Shell gas station last week and some kids broke into a local schools and spray painted some lockers.

History confirms that 2nd amendment advocates are very politically active and vote the issues, the same can't be said for so-called gun control proponents.

There will always be a great divide between those of us who seek smaller government and those who believe that every aspect of our lives should be controlled, socialized and under close government scrutiny.

Maybe these freethinking legislators in Tennessee would be interested in hearing how home inspector licensing has failed to raise the bar or protect consumers and is just a burden on both inspectors and working class citizens (read voters).

Should this country enter another economic recession I believe that it will be possible to to get some of these useless protectionist bills off our books and will be seeking strategies with like-minded inspectors who are dismayed with governments socialization of our profession.

You all know where I can be found.

Maybe these freethinking legislators in Tennessee would be interested in hearing how home inspector licensing has failed to raise the bar or protect consumers and is just a burden on both inspectors and working class citizens (read voters).

Have them ask me, I'd love to share NY's lack of requirements so that they could then base their model on ours which is only a method to generate revenue for the state government to squander.

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

Maybe these freethinking legislators in Tennessee would be interested in hearing how home inspector licensing has failed to raise the bar or protect consumers and is just a burden on both inspectors and working class citizens (read voters).

You all know where I can be found.

And just how do you know this as fact? Last time I looked you did not live or work in a state that has a home inspection license law on books, yet.

I'm sure when your state(FL) has a law it will be a watered down law and then your statement might be true for Florida.

it's all posturing at this point. Nothing anyone could have done, period.

gun control wouldn't have prevented. Profiling wouldn't have prevented.

it's very sad, but for the news "If it bleeds, it leads." There is no solution. It's all posturing to make the general public feel better. If I decided to snap today, I have a lot of ammo and several guns. I know how to keep moving and how to take advantage of the confusion of large groups. I could easily top this kid's death count without a problem. The only difference is that I'm not an overly dramatic piece of **** ready to take everyone else's life apart because mine isn't working out. Gun control isn't the issue. Prevention isn't the issue. It's a matter of dealing with the aftermath of a tragedy. Nothing influenced this kid to do this other than the fact that he didn't care about the consequences. Along the line he decided to commit suicide and take several others with him. Sure it's sad, but it's the circle of life, Simba. Only the strong survive.

However, the government's favorite reaction is overreaction, so expect the worst fallout possible from one anus's actions.

Statistically, if you look at our population, one kid snapping and killing 33 people is not that bad. In fact, 33 people isn't that bad of a number. Sure their kids, but so are most of the soldiers that are fighting in Iraq. So are the gang members in L.A. You don't hear how that's a "Monumental Tragedy."

Just my opinion

You can't make this stuff up.

25 years murder-free in 'Gun Town USA'
Crime rate plummeted after law required firearms for residents

Posted: April 19, 2007
1:52 p.m. Eastern

WorldNetDaily.com

Kennesaw, Ga., City Hall

As the nation debates whether more guns or fewer can prevent tragedies like the Virginia Tech Massacre, a notable anniversary passed last month in a Georgia town that witnessed a dramatic plunge in crime and violence after mandating residents to own firearms.

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of "Wild West" showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender.

The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

This was not what some predicted.

In a column titled "Gun Town USA," Art Buchwald suggested Kennesaw would soon become a place where routine disagreements between neighbors would be settled in shootouts. The Washington Post mocked Kennesaw as "the brave little city … soon to be pistol-packing capital of the world." Phil Donahue invited the mayor on his show.

Reuters, the European news service, today revisited the Kennesaw controversy following the Virginia Tech Massacre.

Police Lt. Craig Graydon said: "When the Kennesaw law was passed in 1982 there was a substantial drop in crime … and we have maintained a really low crime rate since then. We are sure it is one of the lowest (crime) towns in the metro area." Kennesaw is just north of Atlanta.

The Reuters story went on to report: "Since the Virginia Tech shootings, some conservative U.S. talk show hosts have rejected attempts to link the massacre to the availability of guns, arguing that had students been allowed to carry weapons on campus someone might have been able to shoot the killer."

Virginia Tech, like many of the nation's schools and college campuses, is a so-called "gun-free zone," which Second Amendment supporters say invites gun violence – especially from disturbed individuals seeking to kill as many victims as possible.

Cho Seung-Hui murdered 32 and wounded another 15 before turning his gun on himself.

And I'm SURE it has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH "the small town" ...

Let's see, the population "skyrocketed" from 5,000+ to 28,000+ over 25 years.

Let's define "skyrocketed" ...

1 - 5000
2 - 5500
3 - 6050
4 - 6721
5 - 7393
6 - 8132
7 - 8945
8 - 9840
9 -10824
10 -11906
11 -13097
12 -14407
13 -15848
14 -17433
15 -19176
16 -21094
17 -23203
18 -25523
19 -28075
20 -30883
21 -33972
22 -37269
23 -41096
24 -45206
25 -49727

And that's at approximately a 10% growth per year, and the population at 25 years is almost DOUBLE that "skyrocketed" population.

"Skyrocketed" ... yeah, right.

Maybe averaged 5% per year.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

And I'm SURE it has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH "the small town" ...

Let's see, the population "skyrocketed" from 5,000+ to 28,000+ over 25 years.

Let's define "skyrocketed" ....

There is no doubt in my mind that when you were specting houses, you were a nit-picky SOB.

Originally Posted by Joseph Burkeson

There is no doubt in my mind that when you were specting houses, you were a nit-picky SOB.

"nit picky"?

Nah, just told it like it was ...

I know that the concept is not understood by many and rejected by a few but I feel obligated to continue to show that bad gun laws contribute and exacerbate an event and turn it into a massacre.

Gun Laws Kill
by Michael Reagan (more by this author)
Posted 04/20/2007 ET




Thirty-two fine young men and women are dead and that is a huge tragedy. It is also, however, a tragedy that the death toll could have been substantially lower if it were not for an absurd law that kept the students and faculty from exercising their Constitutional right to protect themselves and others by bearing arms on campus.

Thanks to that law a madman was able to confront the men and women at Virginia Tech secure in the knowledge that he was armed while his victims were unarmed and defenseless.

One of those victims used the only weapon he had to protect his students. Liviu Librescu, a man who survived both the Nazi Holocaust and Communist tyranny in his native Romania, used his body as a defensive weapon against the madman’s assault, putting his shoulder to the door to keep the killer from getting into the classroom while his students fled though the windows.

Tragically, that frail body was no match for the rapid-firing Glock 19 in the hands of a crazed Cho Seung-Hui. He paid with his life for being the body-in-between, as the Secret Service puts their role in protecting the president.

“My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Joe Librescu told the Associated Press in a telephone interview from his home outside of Tel Aviv. “Students started opening windows and jumping out."

Those students who made it out of their classrooms owe their lives to the courageous Liviu Librescu, but they owe nothing but contempt for the Virginia legislature that decided in late January to deny to anyone on a Virginia campus the right to carry legally authorized concealed weapons on campus.

On January 31, 2007 The Roanoke Times wrote: "Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus." The proposed legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

And guess who the newspaper quoted as gushing his approval of the legislature’s lame-brained action to defeat the proposal: none other than Virginia Tech spokesman and Vice President Larry Hincker, who told the Times: "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

In the aftermath of the killings on his campus, I wonder if Mr. Hincker still believes his students and faculty who were so cruelly slain -- most had multiple wounds -- remain safe on campus thanks to the legislature’s ill-advised action that denied them the right of self-protection.

In Virginia, any adult who has a lawfully issued permit to carry concealed weapons anywhere in the state remains prohibited from protecting himself while on a state campus thanks to the defeat of the proposed law that would have allowed them the same rights they had off-campus while on-campus.

The very fact that the state considers a person capable of carrying a concealed handgun by their very act of granting a permit should demonstrate that the state believes that the permit holder can be trusted to use that handgun only for self-protection.

It is patently absurd to judge sane, normal people as being incompetent and untrustworthy to bear arms while blithely ignoring the obvious truth of the old saying that when good people are legally disarmed, only bad people will have guns.

Had just one student or faculty member on the Virginia Tech campus under assault by the killer been armed last Monday, the death toll would have been much lower.

As revealed in NewsMax.com, that was proven in Pearl, Miss., in 1997, when 16-year-old Luke Woodham used a hunting rifle to kill his ex-girlfriend and her close friend, and wound seven other students after having killed his own mother. His murder spree was stopped only when Assistant Principal Joel Myrick got his handgun from his car and halted Woodham¹s shooting spree. He kept Woodham at bay until the police arrived. While the shooting was widely reported, the fact that Myrick -- an armed citizen -- prevented a larger massacre with his gun was ignored by the media.

As revealed in NewsMax.com, that was proven in Pearl, Miss., in 1997, when 16-year-old Luke Woodham used a hunting rifle to kill his ex-girlfriend and her close friend, and wound seven other students after having killed his own mother. His murder spree was stopped only when Assistant Principal Joel Myrick got his handgun from his car and halted Woodham¹s shooting spree. He kept Woodham at bay until the police arrived. While the shooting was widely reported, the fact that Myrick -- an armed citizen -- prevented a larger massacre with his gun was ignored by the media.

I think that bears repeating.
I don't carry, but I think laws restricting the right to self-defense are just wrong. Grouping defenseless people into known target areas is just what mad men and terrorists are looking for.
Jim

33 students are dead, why can't we respect thier loss and keep our political agendas in our own arena. There will always be pro and con, for and against, up and down. Decisions should not be made that carry such profound changes during time of grief, mourning and emotion.
Please Joseph, give it a rest. For the rest of us.

I appreciate and practice my right to bare arms however in this case these kids would have been defenseless either way unless they were carrying in the classroom, which of course would not be allowed.

One thing criminals really hate is armed victims. Here is the case of the 1944 Miss America who used her pistol to stop a crime:

Former Miss America Fights Crime In KY

Apr 20, 2007

Lincoln/Pulaski County, KY (WVLT) She's a former Miss America, but now she may be more known for her gun than her tiara.

Venus Ramey won the pageant in 1944.

Now she owns a tree farm in Lincoln County, Kentucky.

WVLT Volunteer TV reporter Phil Pendleton has more on how the 82 year old queen dealt with some people who wanted to steal from her.

Venus Ramey knows it would be easy for someone to take advantage of her.

She's 82 and needs a walker to get around.

"I''m an old woman. They figure they can get away with a lot."

And last Friday, she says some people tried to get away with some of her scrap metal.

They were caught in the act, and police say Curtis Parish was the ringleader.

Ramey says, "he said if you get out of my way, we'll leave. And I said oh no you won't. And I shot 2 shots in one of their tires."

Only that wasn't enough for this former Miss America, who fired again.

"I shot one and it wouldn't go down. I thought it would go woosh and flatten but it didn't. They're not made that way, so I shot it again."

Police say stealing scrap metal is an epidemic and they arrested Curtis Parish and charged him with trespassing.

Police say he took the rap for the others involved.

Since winning the crown, Ramey spends her time selling trees and trying to protect her property from thieves.

"The first time I was robbed on the other side road about 6 or 7 years ago. I caught one man."

But now both police and Ramey say they don't think this man will try to steal from her again.

Authorities remind you to always try to call them, if there's time before you have to confront anyone.

But they say Mrs. Ramey had every right to fire the gun since they say she witnessed the men committing a crime on her property.

Jim,

I don't carry, but I think laws restricting the right to self-defense are just wrong. Grouping defenseless people into known target areas is just what mad men and terrorists are looking for.

This has just now extended to work place violence.

As everyone has heard by now the incident that occurred the other day at the Johnson Space Center in TX.

(Not 100% sure of all the facts here, but here is what I heard from CNN)

A 50-60 year old contract employee entered building 44 with the intent to kill a NASA Engineer/Employee that he had a grievance with. He shot/killed the guy, took a hostage and then killed himself.

He tied her (hostage) up and taped her mouth so that "she could not scream when he shot himself" According to the hostage, he did not want the police to break in and save him from dying as he did not want to go to jail (NASA spokesperson on CNN)

I have never been to Johnson Space Center in TX, however, I have been to Kennedy Space Center in Titusville, Fl a couple of times. As a tourist you can not even get a finger nail file into the area. As you enter you have to empty your pockets (similar to an airport) into a basket and then go through a metal detector. Once done, you take your basket over to a counter where a security person examines the contents. Anyone with a cell phone is told to turn it on and press one of the buttons to verify that it is a working phone. After that you are cleared to tour the facility.

Kennedy has a secured buss tour that takes you to the Observatory Platform, the Saturn Five Museum and the International Space Station Museum. Your are not allowed off the bus except for those locations.

Now as an employee, you are not subjected to those restrictions. It is *assumed* that as an employee you belong and are not a security threat. Problem is that no one can know when *you* as an employee can/will snap like this guy did.

This guy had a specific problem with one guy for which he took out his problems on. The fact that he let the hostage live shows that although he was a very disturbed individual, he was not on a killing spree like Ling Ding Sing (or whatever his name is) from the Virgina school. Ling Ding Sing was out to kill as many people as he could before he committed suicide.

Now the question comes in. Will employers allow employees to carry in the work place??? NO WAY!!! Never happen, mostly because they think they will be the first target from a disgruntled employee. And most likely so.

Citizens licensed to carry in a public (adult) schools??? Maybe in the future after the states react to a knee jerk reaction to rectify (more likely to show that they responded to the situation, right or wrong, they responded) the problem.

Of course where does the line get drawn??? Where do the States allow licensed citizens to carry??? Do you have everyone carrying around guns like the old west???

I for one think licensed citizens should have the option to carry *almost* anywhere. Of course the flip side to that coin is what happens when the person that flips out is a licensed citizen???

In Texas, years ago, there was a mass shooting at a cafeteria and everyone was shocked to their core. The Texas response was a more masculine response instead of emotions. They passed the concealed hand gun law and said it is the right of the people to bear arms and defend themselves.

Many warned of the blood bath and shootings that would follow... but none of those dire warning came true. Law abiding citizens carry guns all over Texas now. Thousands of crimes are STOPPED every year by those guns. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.... :-)

What happens when the person who flips out is licensed to carry? Hopefully, there is not a bunch of unarmed, defenseless people there to be his targets. There will always be nuts, even if you take every gun, then the nuts will use swords, knives, air planes or whatever else is at hand. The key in my mind is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms. The government cannot and will not guarantee your safety, that leaves but two options, be a victim or take care of yourself. I am just independent enough to want to ensure my own safety if all else fails.

Texas Governor showing some common sense leadership in wake of tragedy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perry: Allow concealed handguns anywhere in Texas
By JAY ROOT
jroot@star-telegram.com

AUSTIN — Gov. Rick Perry, mulling ways to stop the kind of murderous rampages that recently left 33 dead on a college campus in Virginia, said Monday there’s one sure-fire solution he likes: allow Texans to take their concealed handguns anywhere.

Period.

Perry said he opposes any concealed gun-toting restrictions at all — whether it’s in a hospital, a public school, a beer joint or even the local courthouse.

“The last time I checked, putting a sign up that says 'Don’t bring your weapons in here,' someone who has ill intent on their mind — they could care less," Perry told reporters. “I think it makes sense for Texans to be able to protect themselves from deranged individuals, whether they're in church or whether on a college campus or wherever."

As reporters began clicking off a list of places where concealed permit holders face restrictions, Perry cut off the questioning and made it clear that he meant anywhere at all.

Under current law, secured airport areas, hospitals, courthouses, bars, churches and schools are among the places where weapons are or can be banned, according to the Texas Department of Public Safety.

People entering federal courts in Texas are routinely required to leave even their cell phones behind.

“Let me cover it right here," Perry said. “I think a person ought to be able to carry their weapons with them anywhere in this state if they are licensed and they have gone through the training. The idea that you’re going to exempt them from a particular place is non-sense to me."

State Rep. Lon Burnam, D-Fort Worth, called Perry’s proposal “a terrible idea."

“Anybody has a right to tell somebody that they can’t bring their handgun into their place of business," Burnam said. “I think the governor is just overreaching in a counterproductive way and it's kind of typical (of the) governor — shoot from the hip, literally and figuratively."

Perry made the remarks at a news conference after meeting with Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt to discuss ways to prevent mass shootings and enhance school safety. The discussion stems from President Bush’s drive to find solutions to such tragedies in the wake of the carnage at Virginia Tech University.

About 260,000 Texans, who have undergone mandatory background check and training, are licensed to carry a concealed weapon, records show. In the last fiscal year, 180 licenses were revoked and 493 were suspended for unknown reasons, records show.

Jay Root, (512) 476-4294

Sounds good to me.

I hope Florida amends its carry laws and allows the "any where" policy too.

I have read up on some of the other states that have reciprocity with Florida. Some states like Georgia restrict carrying in a public place such as a restaurant or shopping mall???

Not much good if you can't carry in a place where something can occur.

Just my opinion, other will argue the point.

I for one would rather depend on myself for my safety as Jim stated.

Law enforcement will be there to notify your next of kin. They may even spell your name correctly in their re_port.

I do think that there are three places that the government will never allow citizens to carry:

1. Bars: Guns and alcohol don't mix.

2. Court Houses: Judges don't like folks carrying in there court room.

3. Federal Buildings: The Feds/Cops won't allow non-feds (IE. citizens not cops) to carry on their turf.

Just a simple request, take your gun control issue to another forum, this is a home inspector forum.
Brian, can't we monitor this stuff and cancel this thread?

Originally Posted by Michael Greenwalt

Just a simple request, take your gun control issue to another forum, this is a home inspector forum.
Brian, can't we monitor this stuff and cancel this thread?

We more then most are in the protection business, to your dismay & consternation many home inspectors have conceal carry permits and regularly exercise their 2nd amendment rights. A tragic event like this only emphasizes our position in public life and brings home the notion that we are our brothers keeper.

Monitoring or removing this thread would not be in keeping with the ideals represented by the members of this board or our country.