Thread: Rehab or Renovation Standards

Guy,s
I'm looking for some advise. The Realtor Board in my area has asked me to help in putting together a committee to establish some level of standards for renovation and rehabilitation of older homes, since we have such an overstock of older neglected homes. Their contention is buyers are avoiding these because any improvements or repairs they would make would be subject to a code inspection by the AHJ which scares the hell out of people and puts the cost out of reach. The municipal inspectors power kick atatudes make it just not worth the effort and pose an even bigger risk.
The idea is to come up with some criteria where we could avoid having to bring the repairs or improvements up to today's codes, but also protect buyers and homeowners trying to improve their home for sale from Homer or Bubba jobs and still be safe and not adversely affecting other functions of the structure or systems.
I've heard talk here of some states already implementing something of this nature, but could not find the thread it was on.
My interest in this is not business related. I'm not trying to brown nose a bunch of realtors. This simply falls into the reasons I entered this business in the first place, to help people less fortunate than me, with the knowledge I've aquired, not make mistakes that will cost them dearly either monitarily or safetywise with their homes.
If anyone has some experience in this area, and would like to share it I'd appreciate it. Maybe you know some hurdles we will run into and how to avoid them, or maybe even have a laid down set of standards already.
Thank You All for your attention

Jim Weyenberg
HouseMaster Inc.
Senior Inspector
2006 HouseMaster Inspector of the Year
jimweyenberg@new.rr.com
920-309-3410

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Originally Posted by Jim Weyenberg

Guy,s
I'm looking for some advise. The Realtor Board in my area has asked me to help in putting together a committee to establish some level of standards for renovation and rehabilitation of older homes, since we have such an overstock of older neglected homes. Their contention is buyers are avoiding these because any improvements or repairs they would make would be subject to a code inspection by the AHJ which scares the hell out of people and puts the cost out of reach. The municipal inspectors power kick atatudes make it just not worth the effort and pose an even bigger risk.
The idea is to come up with some criteria where we could avoid having to bring the repairs or improvements up to today's codes, but also protect buyers and homeowners trying to improve their home for sale from Homer or Bubba jobs and still be safe and not adversely affecting other functions of the structure or systems.
I've heard talk here of some states already implementing something of this nature, but could not find the thread it was on.
My interest in this is not business related. I'm not trying to brown nose a bunch of realtors. This simply falls into the reasons I entered this business in the first place, to help people less fortunate than me, with the knowledge I've aquired, not make mistakes that will cost them dearly either monitarily or safetywise with their homes.
If anyone has some experience in this area, and would like to share it I'd appreciate it. Maybe you know some hurdles we will run into and how to avoid them, or maybe even have a laid down set of standards already.
Thank You All for your attention

Jim Weyenberg
HouseMaster Inc.
Senior Inspector
2006 HouseMaster Inspector of the Year
jimweyenberg@new.rr.com
920-309-3410

First off what is your location? This might help others to help you. Just update your profile so it shows when you post.

If you are going to design any standard you will need to base it on what would be required for your area. I would start with the IRC as the basic standard. I would not be crafting new standards, this could end up being a major liability issue. Keep in mind the the IRC codes are the minimal standard. Many items/systems in a home might just require a permit and inspections for them to be repaired or replaced.

Why would you want to encourage people to make changes to homes without meeting building code? Granted older homes only have to meet the codes for when they were built...unless their is a major renovation and then the system be renovated must be brought up to current code.

I agree that anything you publish that indicates it is ok not to meet code, will put you on the liability hook. The reason codes have changed is to make homes safer. By ignoring code, you are building in unsafe features.

Buyers want a safe house. If they are comparing two houses, House A "rehabbed with an occasional nod towards code, or House B "rehabbed and brought up to meet current code". Which house do you think they are more likely to buy? Which house will they pay a premium for?

Originally Posted by Jim Weyenberg

The Realtor Board in my area has asked me to help in putting together a committee to establish some level of standards for renovation and rehabilitation of older homes, since we have such an overstock of older neglected homes.

That would be excellent, then, too, the properties would be worth more, sell better, and bring in higher commissions, so while that is all and good, it is not for the good of all.

Their contention is buyers are avoiding these because any improvements or repairs they would make would be subject to a code inspection

As that work should be.

by the AHJ which scares the hell out of people ... The municipal inspectors power kick atatudes make it just not worth the effort and pose an even bigger risk.

That's where to start your help. Explain the situation to the AHJ and state that you and the real estate community IS TRYING TO GET THIS DONE BY CODE, but that you need their help in changing the working attitudes of the inspector who are employees of the people they are inspecting for, and, do this in conjunction with the local commissioners for a second meeting if the AHJ is closed to changing their attitudes.

Or, maybe, just maybe, the AHJ attitudes are created by all the people trying to do the work without permits ... like you are suggesting?

and puts the cost out of reach.

Yes, repairs on older homes are not cheap, and doing those repairs *without a permit* even less cheap - because of all the risk and liability being taken on, and *I* for one would not want to be part of a planned and concerted effort to subvert the codes - and *all the liability THAT would bring on to you*.

The idea is to come up with some criteria where we could avoid having to bring the repairs or improvements up to today's codes,

Okie dokie, this is where you stump me ... trying to subvert the codes ... ????

but also protect buyers and homeowners trying to improve their home for sale from Homer or Bubba jobs and still be safe and not adversely affecting other functions of the structure or systems.

Ummmmmm ... that's what codes are for.

... to help people less fortunate than me, ... not make mistakes that will cost them dearly either monitarily or safetywise with their homes.

Which is just the opposite of what you are proposing to do by not pulling permits and not having inspections.

Originally Posted by Jim Weyenberg

Jim Weyenberg
HouseMaster Inc.
Senior Inspector
2006 HouseMaster Inspector of the Year
jimweyenberg@new.rr.com
920-309-3410

Did anyone notice in the signature .... "2006 HouseMaster Inspector of the Year"?

I hope the above inquiry *is not* representative of the thinking of Housemaster Senior Inspectors, much less any other HouseMaster Inspector of the Year inspectors.

Holy cow! (If it is.)

Jim, I think I understand what you are trying to do, but you may be overstating your intentions by using the words chosen (or maybe not, you decide)

to establish some level of standards for renovation and rehabilitation of older homes

This would imply that you are going to reinvent the wheel by coming up with you own code and standards that people could meet and avoid the local AHJ.
I think the real purpose (correct me if I am wrong) would be to summarize the laws (codes) that are in place and where the line would be drawn on having to get city inspections and be out bunches of money for repairs.
For example, paint, floor covering and new light fixtures would not trigger the need for a permit and inspections. Moving walls, rewiring, etc. would cross the line in most areas.
If a summary of the rules is what you have in mind, I would still be disclaiming out the wazoo lest someone come after the author(s) of the summary when the summary turns out to be wrong.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

Jim For example, paint, floor covering and new light fixtures would not trigger the need for a permit and inspections.

In some places, even re-painting is required to have a permit.

Scott & Bruce
Thank you for the replies. I'm in NE WI. just south of Green Bay. I don't think the intent here is to circumvent the codes but to be realistic in applying them. An old house is just that and old house. If a guy wants to do some upgrades to his older house and is somewhat handy, can we supply him with the guidance to do the majority of it himself as long as it is not involving major plumbing or structural changes that would require a professional. To often these first time home buyers or couples just stepping up from their first home have all kinds of enthusiasm to improve the home though lack the money or the necessary knowledge to do it all themselves but want to learn by doing. Can we draw a line somewhere and say yes it's your house you can do what you want but if it goes to this point and involves this or that consult and professional. I don't see it as writing a new standard or code but more like guidelines to say go this far, get a plumber, go here get an electrician and so on. Can you see where I'm trying to go here. The codes and standards are what we as HI's live by, but in older homes can we cut people some slack as long as what they do is safe and poses no detrimental long term effects and at least abides by the standards of the era the house was built in. We are just setting this group up, we have a couple developers, municipal inspectors, trade professionals and the representatives of 2 of the areas Builders associations and of coarse a couple realtors. The first formal meeting will be next week. I'll try to keep the forum posted.
Thank You
Jim Weyenberg

Originally Posted by Jim Weyenberg

Scott & Bruce
Thank you for the replies. I'm in NE WI. just south of Green Bay. I don't think the intent here is to circumvent the codes but to be realistic in applying them. An old house is just that and old house. If a guy wants to do some upgrades to his older house and is somewhat handy, can we supply him with the guidance to do the majority of it himself as long as it is not involving major plumbing or structural changes that would require a professional. To often these first time home buyers or couples just stepping up from their first home have all kinds of enthusiasm to improve the home though lack the money or the necessary knowledge to do it all themselves but want to learn by doing. Can we draw a line somewhere and say yes it's your house you can do what you want but if it goes to this point and involves this or that consult and professional. I don't see it as writing a new standard or code but more like guidelines to say go this far, get a plumber, go here get an electrician and so on. Can you see where I'm trying to go here. The codes and standards are what we as HI's live by, but in older homes can we cut people some slack as long as what they do is safe and poses no detrimental long term effects and at least abides by the standards of the era the house was built in. We are just setting this group up, we have a couple developers, municipal inspectors, trade professionals and the representatives of 2 of the areas Builders associations and of coarse a couple realtors. The first formal meeting will be next week. I'll try to keep the forum posted.
Thank You
Jim Weyenberg

I just don't see how it can be done. I inspect many 100+ year old homes every year and they are all different. I would say that the most common issues would be Electrical and Plumbing, both of those would require a professional and in many cases permits. Getting around a permit will depend totally on the area you are working in.

Last, I would run all of this through legal council.

What I have seen is that the AHJ will often allow a certain percentage of the structure to be rehabbed before having to meet current codes. Say 40% or more of the existing structure would need to be gutted out before current code would have to be met.
Other areas I have seen use a dollar amount, usually also ties in with appraised value of the structure before and after the rehab. I've also seen the AHJ question the intent of the rehab. If the rehabber intends to occupy the structure for a certain time period they go pretty lenient on enforcing new standards. If this is a house flipping project the developer must meet current code at about 20% or so of the appraisal before the project. I've also seen Historic District type organizations have a big say in what can be done & how. The one I've dealt with won't allow anything less than current code and go above code on a ton of stuff. Needless to say this instance ain't cheap.

Originally Posted by Jim Weyenberg

I don't think the intent here is to circumvent the codes but to be realistic in applying them. An old house is just that and old house.

Only if left as an 'old house'.

Once new work gets done *IT IS REQUIRED* to be done to code, with permits.

Trying to do otherwise *IS* trying to subvert the codes. You may try to call it something else, but that *IS* what it is.

If a guy wants to do some upgrades to his older house and is somewhat handy,

Jim, you are not getting the point. This is not about 'how handy someone is', it is about 'all new work must be done in accordance with the applicable building codes, and that includes permits and inspections.

Can we draw a line somewhere and say yes it's your house you can do what you want but

but ... but ... but it must STILL be done in accordance withe codes, which, as I've said before, includes permits and inspections. Which is what you seem to be trying to avoid.

The codes and standards are what we as HI's live by, but in older homes can we cut people some slack as long as what they do is safe and poses no detrimental long term effects and at least abides by the standards of the era the house was built in.

No, Jim, the new work in the old house MUST meet codes. All EXISTING 'old stuff' can be left, which does not mean it is 'safe', but it can be left as it was permitted and constructed, assuming it was permitted when constructed.

Originally Posted by Alton Darty

What I have seen is that the AHJ will often allow a certain percentage of the structure to be rehabbed before having to meet current codes. Say 40% or more of the existing structure would need to be gutted out before current code would have to be met.
Other areas I have seen use a dollar amount, usually also ties in with appraised value of the structure before and after the rehab.

Alton,

What you are referring to is having, or not having, to bring the entire structure up to current code.

Regardless, though, *all new work* must be permitted, done according to code, and inspected as required by code.

Again thank you all for your input, and your right, kind of a poor choice of words there. I think more like guidelines is the idea here. I don't think I was very clear on the extent of the idea. Being there are municipal inspectors in the group as well as trade professionals the codes will be protected and the public protected, I think some of you are taking this a little father than the intention. But that's mostly my fault for not being more clear on the intent at the start.
I think it's as Jerry said getting to the AHJ's would be step one. Just getting them to listen to somebody else is huge, I am totally amazed that two of them are signed on to this exploratory committee. Getting them or most of them to be just a little less domineering and godlike would be the biggest step. I don't see the intent here to rewrite the code or circumvent it in any way at all but to be reasonable on older homes. Jim I think you put it best, I think what we would be looking for is a Summary of the the laws, rules and codes, maybe with an explanation of the intent of them and maybe just maybe help or direction from the AHJ's instead of snoby abusive remarks and threats. Pretty tall task but with the diversity of interest already signed on, AHJs, Realtor Association, Builders Associations, Tradesmen and a lowly HI, obviously there is wide concern in this area. Who knows maybe it won't go anywhere maybe it's just baby steps and this is the first one. We'll see. Thank You Again for your input.

Jim W.,

I think it's pretty simple... if it requires a repair, that usually does not trigger a permit requirement and a subsequent code compliant inspection.

However, if you REMOVE/REPLACE a structural component or system (plumbing, electrical, hvac, etc...), that *SHOULD* be a dead give-away that the structural component or system should be permitted and inspected by a code official in-order to protect the homeowner and the general public from; a) a potential hazardous condition or b) a potential safety concern and c) just what you have described, the "bubba-job".

Now, before this is taken as gospel. I urge you to not convey this to the good folks in cheese country or anywhere else until you have had a chance to get the AHJ's recommendations and prevailaing thoughts on the subject.

Code is minimum. When in doubt, do it the safe way and run it through the AHJ...

Richard (never been inspector-of-the-year) Rushing

Scott,
I'm with you on that, I don't know how it could be done either, but I want in. There obviously is concern in this area from some pretty high sources or it would not have come even this far. Like I said this an exploratory committee and it may not go anywhere, but if it does I want to be there if for anything to make sure the realtors aren't taking advantage of someone. And I don't see anything involving the legalities here but will take your advice if it get's to that point.

Alton, It sounds like you have something already worked out addressing this in your area. And some accommodating AHJ's. The percentage and the dollar amount things are go points. Thank You. As far as historical goes we're talking well under that range. In my area your only subject to the (histarical) society if the property is on the historical register. But good point. Thanks

Jerry, As usual you are right, but taking it beyond the intent as explained to me but I guess I did not convey that very well to you all. First we would be talking about 100K to maybe 150K homes here. With maybe S-traps at the sink drains, or maybe the sink or tub was moved and the vent cut off and those soft rubber hoses with clamps put on the drain piping, or the back door opening out because the halls to small for it to open in, or the heat to the upper level is a hole in the first floor ceiling. Yes point these things out but let's not force the folks to change it or we'll condemn it. If it's a flip, no dice, do it right or not at all. I am totally with you on that.
Again Thank You for the interest Got to Go! Work tomorrow for some of us.
Jim Weyenberg

Originally Posted by Richard Rushing

I think it's pretty simple... if it requires a repair, that usually does not trigger a permit requirement and a subsequent code compliant inspection.

Unfortunately, you are correct to a point "that usually does not trigger a permit", however, the (bold and italics are mine) "requirement and a subsequent code compliant inspection" are still there.

From the 2006 IRC (and it is this way in most codes). (bold and underlining are mine)

- R105.1 Required.

Any owner or authorized agent who intends to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish or change he occupancy of a building or structure, or to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation of which is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be done, shall first make application to the building official and obtain the required permit.

- R105.2 Work exempt from permit.

Permits shall not be required for the following. Exemption from permit requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction.
(then it goes on to list a lot of SMALL things.)

Jim,

That section right there sets out and defines what you are seeking, and R105.2 specifically states what is 'exempt' from permits.

It really does not take a group to decide that, it is stated right there.

BUT ...

... getting cooperation from the building department 'to assist' owner/builders (that is what they are called) is a reasonable manner - THAT is what would solve the problems I see you talking about.

AVOIDING 'having to get permits' *IS NOT* the way.

Originally Posted by Jim Weyenberg

First we would be talking about 100K to maybe 150K homes here. With maybe S-traps at the sink drains,

VERY EASY fix with an AAV.

The following is from the 'exempt from permit' items: (bold is mine)

"The stopping of leaks in drains, water, soil, waste or vent pipe; provided, however, that if any concealed trap, drainpipe, water, soil, waste or vent pipe becomes defective and it becomes necessary to remove and replace the same with new material, such work shall be considered as new work and a permit shall be obtained and inspection made as provided in this code.

The clearing of stoppages or the repairing of leaks in pipes, valves or fixtures, and the removal and reinstallation of water closets, provided such repairs do not involve or require the replacement or rearrangement of valves, pipes or fixtures."

or maybe the sink or tub was moved and the vent cut off and those soft rubber hoses with clamps put on the drain piping, or the back door opening out because the halls to small for it to open in, or the heat to the upper level is a hole in the first floor ceiling.

I'm not following you here ... you want to continue to allow things which are known to be wrong and unsafe, potentially unsanitary or whatever???

That's what you are saying with:

Yes point these things out but let's not force the folks to change it or we'll condemn it

Jim, those things NEED TO BE CHANGED.

The far better direction to go would be to create a fund from which those borrowers and home owners could borrow from at little or not interest, or even possibly (better idea) create a fund to which those people to apply for small grants for those repairs, and, one condition of those loans or grants *would be permits and inspections* to verify that the public money was being used *wisely*, and, yes, *wisely* is to use some public money for that use. Heck, with sufficient general support a bond issue referendum could be offered to the voters in that area for that specific purpose.

But to try to circumvent the codes and potentially do those people who can least afford it harm? No way.

If you are really interested in helping them (and it sounds like you are), then don't hurt them in the long run by *making them live in substandard housing*, create a way to make those small repairs possible for them.

(create a way to make those small repairs possible for them.)
Very well put. Jerry that's it. First don't let the AHJs scare the heck out of people, then point out the concerns with explanations of why it's a concern and then add suggestions on repair/replacement and maybe give a reasonable time frame to complete and if a low interest loan or a grant is available hook'em up. That is a good direction to go. I'll get a better idea Tuesday on what these guys are looking for. Thanks Jerry
Jim Weyenberg

Grants?
What you would need to do is start with applicaton process. Then, as part of the inspection you would provide a public body estimate PBE, then decide if all needed repairs would fit under your grant cap before even touch the house. No permit will need to be pulled until the grant is approved and work is scheduled to begin.
Your inspection would then be draw, code and safety combined.
Yet, listed in your PBE, there should be your own guidelines that say the builder is responsible for arranging all city/ code inspections

You might look at the 'Code Check' series of books. It's probably the most concise conduit to the code in the least amount of pages.

The ICC has devolped a code for existing buildings. You might want to start there.

2006 International Existing Building Code® (soft cover)

Lori

Jim,

In my area there is a nonprofit organization that helps low income people to repair and maintain their homes. Generally, this translates to elderly couples or singles that are trying to remain in their homes despite getting older and having restricted mobility, but occasionally there are younger couples that need some help with repairs. The organization is "Rebuilding Together" Rebuilding Together, but there may be other organizations as well. The process with the local RT chapter is that low income homeowners will apply for help and the board of directors reviews the applications and makes decisions. Then, on a single day in April, a large group of volunteers descends on the selected homes to do the repairs. When a professional is needed (heating, electrical, whatever), then they either pay or try to get the time donated.

I became involved with a local RT chapter and have done a few inspections for them. There are a few other local inspectors that have also donated inspections. The reports gives the organization a better idea of what kind of repairs are necessary and allows them to organize the workers and materials much more effectively.

Hope this helps.

This is what I subscribe too:

The primary intent of building regulations is to provide reasonable controls for the construction, use of occupancy of buildings, and all of their various components. Thus such codes are minimum in nature, and under the provisions of the “police power” cannot legally be made to require construction of a quality excessive of that which is necessary to furnish a reasonable degree of safety. Attempts to impose construction requirements that might exceed those minimums in all probability would not be upheld in a court of law.. (the word minimum should not be misconstrued as inferior or shoddy work.)

Codes must be based on what is generally accepted as good standards of construction. Only those provisions which a reasonable, practical, or necessary can be legally enforced. Codes containing requirements or specifications which, through analysis, can be proved to be excessive of minimum requirements are of questionable legal validity in our contemporary society.

Properly written codes contain provisions requiring that buildings and structures be erected, utilized and maintained in a manner which reduces the risk of human life and safety to an acceptable minimum. The codes should also make provisions for the disposition of dilapidated or dangerous buildings.

From “Building Department Administration” by Robert E. O’Bannon - 1989

Originally Posted by Jim Weyenberg

(create a way to make those small repairs possible for them.)
Very well put. Jerry that's it. First don't let the AHJs scare the heck out of people, then point out the concerns with explanations of why it's a concern and then add suggestions on repair/replacement and maybe give a reasonable time frame to complete and if a low interest loan or a grant is available hook'em up. That is a good direction to go. I'll get a better idea Tuesday on what these guys are looking for. Thanks Jerry
Jim Weyenberg

Jim,

Here is a way to jump start the process:

From every person who can potentially profit from this obtain a $50 "donation" which can be written off their taxes.

In the coverage area where the program will be provided:
EVERY real estate sales agent.
EVERY home inspector.
EVERY contractor.
EVERY building supply store, which includes local hardware stores.
EVERY everything which relates to this, the people who will actually 'get money' from the program.

That probably covers at least 1,000 people in even a small area of coverage, at $50 each that is a starting nest egg for the fund of $50,00. While that will not build a house, it will do a lot of "small" repairs of the type you were talking about.

I say EVERY home inspector knowing that, if I was still in business and not retired, *I* would not actually 'get money' from this as my market was high end, I probably would have done a few inspections for free, but, nonetheless, I would gladly have kicked in my $50, heck, even $100 to get something like that started.

I think your biggest challenge, though, will be to get the AHJ on your side by trying to be cooperative with a helpful attitude, and I think the BEST WAY to do that is to insure, INSIST, that all repairs covered by the program WILL BE PERMITTED. One of the biggest problems AHJ come up against at un-permitted work, and this will just delight them and 'make their day', so to speak.

Think of this in the same concept as 'micro lending' and what it has done in poor countries and areas.

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

Jim,

In my area there is a nonprofit organization that helps low income people to repair and maintain their homes. Generally, this translates to elderly couples or singles that are trying to remain in their homes despite getting older and having restricted mobility, but occasionally there are younger couples that need some help with repairs. The organization is "Rebuilding Together" Rebuilding Together, but there may be other organizations as well. The process with the local RT chapter is that low income homeowners will apply for help and the board of directors reviews the applications and makes decisions. Then, on a single day in April, a large group of volunteers descends on the selected homes to do the repairs. When a professional is needed (heating, electrical, whatever), then they either pay or try to get the time donated.

I became involved with a local RT chapter and have done a few inspections for them. There are a few other local inspectors that have also donated inspections. The reports gives the organization a better idea of what kind of repairs are necessary and allows them to organize the workers and materials much more effectively.

Hope this helps.

Gunnar,
Yes it helps immensly, this is just what I think is the intention here. Couple this with Jerry's idea and we may have a direction to move in and the ammunition to fight with.
Thanks to all for the assistance here, your ideas and direction have me motivated to get this thing off the ground.
Sincere Thanks
Jim Weyenberg

And Gunnar NO! my youngest daughter is vegetarian and does not eat animal crackers, possible animal based shortning.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Jim,

Here is a way to jump start the process:

From every person who can potentially profit from this obtain a $50 "donation" which can be written off their taxes.

In the coverage area where the program will be provided:
EVERY real estate sales agent.
EVERY home inspector.
EVERY contractor.
EVERY building supply store, which includes local hardware stores.
EVERY everything which relates to this, the people who will actually 'get money' from the program.

That probably covers at least 1,000 people in even a small area of coverage, at $50 each that is a starting nest egg for the fund of $50,00. While that will not build a house, it will do a lot of "small" repairs of the type you were talking about.

I say EVERY home inspector knowing that, if I was still in business and not retired, *I* would not actually 'get money' from this as my market was high end, I probably would have done a few inspections for free, but, nonetheless, I would gladly have kicked in my $50, heck, even $100 to get something like that started.

I think your biggest challenge, though, will be to get the AHJ on your side by trying to be cooperative with a helpful attitude, and I think the BEST WAY to do that is to insure, INSIST, that all repairs covered by the program WILL BE PERMITTED. One of the biggest problems AHJ come up against at un-permitted work, and this will just delight them and 'make their day', so to speak.

Think of this in the same concept as 'micro lending' and what it has done in poor countries and areas.

Jerry,
This is a great idea, would you mind if stole it and brought it up as a direction or possibly a proposal with the committee? (micro lending)

As far as the AHJs go their willingness to contribute to this committee tells me there is hope. But there is only 2 signed up right now and they are the better of the bunch around here. We'll feel'em out on Tuesday.
Thank You Your help and experiance are priceless.
Jim Weyenberg

Originally Posted by Jim Weyenberg

Jerry,
This is a great idea, would you mind if stole it and brought it up as a direction or possibly a proposal with the committee? (micro lending)

Take anything I throw out there and use it as best you can.