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  1. #1
    David Banks's Avatar
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    Default Mormon Sect Raid

    Sect's Small Kids to Be Split From Moms - AOL News

    Does anyone else have a problem with what is going on here? All this over a phone call that no one can find the alleged victim. Now they are talking about taking children away from their mothers and putting them in foster homes.
    Do we really want the government doing such things just because we do not agree with some peoples life style? If laws are broken thats one thing but I do not get what is going on here. If you make enough laws we are all bound to break some. I saw on cable news and the talking heads were all saying like it was a forgone conclusion that the kids would be taken from their mothers. Is this morally correct even if some letter of the law has been broken. Even if polygamy is practiced on this ranch do you still take children away from their mothers? How come the press is not questioning some of this.
    Can someone enlighten me here?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    I think this might help answer your question Dave. From the article......................
    "The child welfare agency has said that the sect encourages adolescent girls to marry older men and have children, and that boys are groomed to become future perpetrators. Sect members deny the allegations.

    The April 3 raid on the Yearning For Zion Ranch was prompted by a call made to a family violence shelter, purportedly by a 16-year-old girl who said her 50-year-old husband beat and raped her. That girl has never been identified."


    Whether you agree with poligamy or not, the allegation that a 16 year old girl has a 50 year old husband is creepy and disgusting. I'm sure more stories/allegations will come out of this.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    I heard in one of the news stories that the FBI has had an informant inside for several years. I think this is much more than just the result of one random phone call.

    I agree that it's unfortunate for all the kids. There's really not a good solution.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    I think it was long overdue. 14 -16 year brides with a couple of their own children fathered by a bigamist father by they time they are of legal age is just wrong.

    I guess if you have children of your own this is easier to understand.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Another money making scheme cloaked in "we are doing God's work." Don't think God intended 15-16 year old girls to become baby machines. Sort of like those puppy factories and the way the women where all dressed alike! Looks like a real mass-mind control deal to me and I just hope they don't end up serving Koolaid.

    Jerry McCarthy
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  6. #6
    Steve Lowery's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    All that said, I'm pissed that the phoney call may cause any/all "evidence to be tossed due to 'fruit of the poison tree" principal. I've always thought that Texas was the stronghold of our republic, that small government is prevalient, that capitolism's strengths as well as it's weaknesses are more obvious there than, perhaps anywhere on earth.
    Could somebody explain what this judge is going to do next? Are the Hyperfemmes driving this?


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    David;
    I think it is prudent to always be concerned when government steps in to this degree. And this situation should be closely monitored and the progress be kept very public.

    However, there simply was no choice by Texas law. When a complaint is filed, anonymous or not, CPS has a limited amount of time to respond and to determine if the situation requires no action, directed action with the children remaining in the home, or immediate action where the chilren are in imminant danger of abuse or neglect. This is the key criteria for removal. No other reasons are sufficient. The mandatory response time runs from a visit within 24 hours to "no visit warranted." All calls are filtered through an 800# in Austin. The investigator then files a report and a supervisor determines if removal will happen.

    Next, a Judge (the type varies by County in Texas) hears both sides. The County attorney for CPS and the Parents or Guardians for the children. The Judge can and does send the children back home if CPS cannot present what is considered to be adequate cause for removal.

    After temporay emergency removal, a CPS service plan is presented to the guardians and to the Judge for review. The Judge can agree with the plan, modify the plan, or reject the plan. The service plan says what actions must be taken by the guardians to regain custody. Visitation rights, if any, are determined.

    Total time from removal to final disposition of guardianship is to be no more than 18 months, with one six month extension permitted. This is so that the child doesn't linger in the Foster care system forever. If at the end of the period the guardians have been unable to complete the plan or other factors surface to consider them a danger to the children, parental rights are revoked, CPS retains Permanent Managing Conservatorship; and the children are eligable for adoption.

    All the lawyers you saw on TV are paid minimum salaries by the counties involved and are appointed by the judge as Attorneys ad litem for the children. Their sole job is to tell the judge what the child wants. As you might suspect, the child will always express that they want to go home, no matter how bad a situation is. As you also might suspect, many Attorneys ad litem are less than compitent.

    It is likely that many of these childen will be greatly traumatized by this experience. I hope that the Judge involved is educated and actively involves CASAs as guardians ad litem for the children. The Guardian ad litem is charged to act in the best interest of the child. Those persons, the CASAs, will investigate on their own the parents, schools, Doctors, CPS personnel involved, and anyone else who influences the child's life and will form a relationship with the child. Based on all his/her findings the CASA makes a recommendation to the Judge. In my experience, the Judge weighs very heavily on the information provided by the CASA.

    September 1 of this year a major recruitment campaign will be launched across Texas to attempt to double the number of trained CASAs in one short year. Currently, in Texas and nationally, enough trained CASA's are on hand to handle roughly 30% of the children in need.

    CASA (Court Appointed SPecial Advocates) is a Nationwide effort. Your State will have an organization. Make a difference. Become a CASA. You can make a difference.

    And, yes, you do have time.

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  8. #8

    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    There is no easy answer to what the judge can do. But when most of the kids questioned didn't know what their birthday was and could not answer the question about who is related to who - when girls under 16 are wed to men in their 50's - whatever the judge does will be far better in the long run. If the mothers of these kids are so very concerned then they can start giving the court the answers to the questions they are now refusing to answer. Not an easy problem.


  9. #9
    David Banks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Thanks Thom Walker for taking the time and explain the Texas law.
    It still seems something is not right here. Your quote hits my concern.
    "I think it is prudent to always be concerned when government steps in to this degree. And this situation should be closely monitored and the progress be kept very public."
    Who are these CPS people. Do they have their own prejudice. Are they Baptist, Catholics, etc with their own agenda? Just because most people do not agree with this groups ways does not mean you can take their kids from the mothers even if they do not know who the father is. Besides none of the allegations are proven. So the State gets to take your kids for up to a year?
    This is one phone call about one instance of child abuse. How did every family's kid get taken away. How would all of you feel if CPS came to your door because of one phone call and took your kids for a year. As Scott said "I guess if you have children of your own this is easier to understand"
    How come during the Catholic priest sex scandal they did not raid all the Catholic schools and remove the kids? I think it is a slippery slope and we should all be vigilant. It is probably to late anyway. Country's gone kooky already. The government scares us into thinking we need more and more protection from drugs, criminals,terrorist, etc before you know it we have this huge police force and prosecutes whom have to justify their existence. We now have more people in jail than any other industrialized nation.
    There is a reservoir in my neighborhood, great place for a walk. One of my neighbors got arrested for walking in the trails. 911 thing I assume.
    Give me a break. We are all safe in sound but can not take a walk!


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by David Banks View Post
    This is one phone call about one instance of child abuse. Give me a break.
    It's more than that. The government has had an informant on the inside for several years.

    I agree with you to some extent but there must be a line in the sand drawn somewhere. We, as a society, have decided it's not okay for 14 year old girls to be forced to marry and have kids with 50 year old men.

    It's good to have a healthy sceptisism of the government and to watch what they're doing. From everything the media is reporting, this is just too far over the top and government had to step in.

    You can form religious groups or any other kind of groups you like but you're still bound by the laws that we've all agreed upon.


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  12. #12
    David Banks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Matt. I appreciate your input to this thread but why do you feel the need to take my statement and put it out of context? Your post.
    Originally Posted by David Banks
    This is one phone call about one instance of child abuse. Give me a break.

    Here is what I said.
    This is one phone call about one instance of child abuse. How did every family's kid get taken away. How would all of you feel if CPS came to your door because of one phone call and took your kids for a year. As Scott said "I guess if you have children of your own this is easier to understand"

    There is a reservoir in my neighborhood, great place for a walk. One of my neighbors got arrested for walking in the trails. 911 thing I assume.
    Give me a break. We are all safe in sound but can not take a walk!

    I expect dishonesty from the government but here also?


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    I really wasn't trying to change what you said. When I quoted the comment part of what I meant to erase was left. I really just meant to quote the sentence about the phone call. Sorry for the mix-up.

    The point I was trying to make is that while the phone call was the catalist for the situation there was already lots of attention on it.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    This is one phone call about one instance of child abuse. How did every family's kid get taken away. How would all of you feel if CPS came to your door because of one phone call and took your kids for a year. As Scott said "I guess if you have children of your own this is easier to understand"

    I'll take a stab at this Dave. Assuming that there was a goverment informer on the inside of this sect/cult/alternate lifestyle community, they likely had a case that was being built..........quietly. Now, a call goes out about an allegation of rape of a 50 year old man on a 16 year old girl. Once something is made public, even though it is an allegation, it probably forced the governments' hand to act. Now they may very well have taken all the kids from their parents eventually if they had enough info. And if they do have enough info, they may be able to call it child endangerment if the parents were willfully making their kids grow up and live in an environment where it is common and expected for 14 year old girls to be made into brides and mothers.

    There has to be more to this than has been made public for the kids to be separated from their parents.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    I think this thread needs to be renamed the "Black Helicopter" thread!

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Introduction: Crisis in Texas Foster Care

    "Some foster children have been moved among 30, 40 or even more all-too-temporary “homes.” Some have been sexually, physically and emotionally abused while in the system; some have run away and joined the ranks of the missing. A few have even died at the hands of those entrusted with their care."

    Now they are saying the phone call may be a from a girl in Colorado and there may have been no grounds for the raid. Now the prosecutur will say as long as we believed the call to be true we can still move forward.
    Come on where are all you Anti Big Government, Christian,The family is everything people now.
    I will let it drop, but something is not right here. If there is criminal behavior arrest and charge the people and give the rest of the kids back to their mothers.


  17. #17
    David Banks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    I think this thread needs to be renamed the "Black Helicopter" thread!
    Sorry Scott for being concerned about 400 children being ripped from their mothers.
    I guess we should all be sheep and never question anything.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Does anyone remember Jim Jones and Jonestown?
    From Wikipedia:
    Warren Steed Jeffs (born December 3, 1955, in San Francisco, California) was the leader of a controversial Mormon fundamentalist polygamist sect known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS Church) from 2002 to 2007.[3] Jeffs' position in this organization was reportedly that of absolute ruler.
    Jeffs gained international notoriety in May 2006 when he was placed on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted List for unlawful flight to avoid prosecution on Utah state charges related to his alleged arrangement of extralegal marriages between his adult male followers and underage girls. He was arrested in August 2006 in Nevada, and agreed to be taken to Utah for trial. In May and July of 2007 the State of Arizona charged him with eight additional counts—including sexual conduct with minors and incest—in two separate cases.[4] His trial, which began early in September of 2007 in St. George, Utah, lasted less than a month, and on September 25 the verdict was read declaring him guilty of two counts of rape as an accomplice.[5] On November 20, 2007 he was sentenced to imprisonment for 10 years to life and has begun serving his sentence at the Utah State Prison.[6]
    The this is not an isolated incident based on a single phone call as some might believe. There is a history of rape and incest by the leader. When the entire sect seems to be founded on principles of promoting this type of behavior, then yes, the entire organization has to be investigated.
    People can be nuts all they want until they cross the line and harm others, especially those under the age of consent.

    Jim Luttrall
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  19. #19
    Richard Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    What Jim said...

    Maybe the excuse for the actual raid was a little flimsy but it seems very obvious it was based on other knowledge of this group and, I for one am glad they had that excuse. We are fortunate to live in a country where organizations like the CPS truly care about children and where we have a legal system to decide the facts. Maybe the children will eventually be reunited with their mothers, but only after it has been established they will come to no further harm at their hands, according to this country's standards of acceptable behaviour.

    This was on the AP wire only yesterday...
    The Associated Press: Boy flees Islamic school that makes beggars of African kids

    It's very sad. Read it and decide whether you would prefer a child protection service that might err on the side of safety for the children, or one that seems incapabe of doing anything.

    One paragraph in particular really bugs me...
    "In 2005, Senegal made it a crime punishable by five years in prison to force a child to beg. But the same law makes an exception for children begging for religious reasons. Few dare to cross marabouts for fear of supernatural retaliation." (my bold)

    This is not about polygamy as such. It is about the children and an indoctrinated "cult" crossing a line that we, as a nation, have rightfully drawn in the sand.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    I had read that in the Temple at this sect compound there was bed which investigators had reason to believe was being used as a ceremonial-type place where newly married girls were required/expected to consumate the marriage with their new husband.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    State sanctioned child abuse!


  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Banks View Post
    Sorry Scott for being concerned about 400 children being ripped from their mothers.
    I guess we should all be sheep and never question anything.
    The phone call came from a woman in Colorado who has made other anonymous calls about wrong doing at various Jeffers ranches and churches in Colorado, Arizona, and Texas. Police forces using anonymous calls to justify warrants could lead to many problems regarding police power.

    Take the Catholic Priests, why when there were accusations of sexual assaults against children by some of those Priests, didn't Police forces in various cities where the accusations were made, obtain warrants and search Catholic churches and impound all their records?

    As far as marriage to girls of 12 to 14, it may have changed by now but, back in the 70's at least a 12 year old girl could be married to an adult man of any age with the girls parents permission in many southern States, I'm not sure about Texas.

    The shotgun approach to punishing everyone at the Texas Ranch is wrong, many of those families lived in separate single family houses on the ranch and did not practice polygamy. Those who didn't break the law and did not abuse their children should not have them taken away, this isn't the first time this has happened to Mormons either.

    Children die every year because they are not allowed by their parents religion to obtain necessary medical treatment, there was one in the news just prior to this ranch thing, authorities most often know of the danger to these children but almost always fail to act until after a child has died. Why?

    It's a tricky situation in Texas, but each case, each child and family should be investigated and handled individually, not in mass.


  23. #23
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    Why not send in the state for other religions as a whole - such as maybe groups who don't believe in doctors for their kids or immunizations? How about just sending them in for parents who don't parent 'correctly' according to the state. How about people just have the children, the government will take them and raise them and then you can check back when they are adults to 'see how it went'. Oh that's right that is communism/socialism where the government chooses. The warrant was executed on a fake call. There are apparently pedophiles in the compound and that is ILLEGAL. PROSECUTE THEM. Baptist, 7th Day Adventist, Catholic - WHO IS NEXT.
    My heart's breaking for those kids. How in the world can they do that? How can the state do that? How in the world can they steal children away from their mothers? Each case, each child and family should be investigated individually, not in mass.

    Last edited by Zibby Swieca; 04-26-2008 at 05:59 AM.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Wouldn't surprise me to know that there are more abused underage unwed mothers in the City of (put in the name of any large city) Housing Projects than that compound.

    Erby Crofutt, Georgetown, KY - Read my Blog here: Erby the Central Kentucky Home Inspector B4 U Close Home Inspections www.b4uclose.com www.kentuckyradon.com
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  25. #25
    David Banks's Avatar
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  26. #26
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    Uh, 'scuse me, Mr. Lewis Ca-paul....now, I'm uh sitisen uf Mis'sip'i, a Suthurn state if ever there was one, I'm 55 yars uf age, 'n ah dun lived up in here all mah lif, 'n I don no uf no law what was ever on thuh books what wood let me hitch up with a 12 yar old girl. I sho wood 'preshate it if you cud en-lighten me 'n thuh rest uf thuh reedership on jes' which statute, current or de-leted, allowed such a thang to take place. I sorta b'lieve you musta got holt uf sum bad Iderhoe 'taters, or sumthin' uf such nature!

    Now, for a little history lesson from the old teacher: This is the condensed version, but rest assured the elements are true.

    Originally, the Mormons were founded by the venerable Mr. Joseph Smith, an erstwhile treasure hunter who "discovered" the Book of Moroni chiseled on stone tablets in King James English while digging for gold in the Adirondack Mountains in upper New York State back around 1840 or so. These tablets explained to Mr. Smith that the great civilizations of Central and South America (Aztecs, Maya, and Inca) were actually the 10 lost tribes of Israel, who had miraculously migrated across the Atlantic many moons ago, and who had turned into Native Americans! The Book of Moroni today is an important part of the Mormon Bible.

    In the beginning, to coin a phrase, the followers of Mr. Smith operated on sort of, shall we say, an "Old Testament" approach to the subject of marriage, and it was accepted and even stressed that a man could or should have as many wives and children as he could produce and support. Never mind that the wives and children themselves represented almost exclusively the labor pool for said support. Largely because of these practices, the Mormons were despised (in their view persecuted) by many, and were literally kicked out everywhere they went under threat of death. In fact, Prophet Smith himself did die, and the movement was taken over by Sub-Prophet Brigham Young, a free-soiler if ever there was one, who proceeded to take the movement West, where they could be free from "persecution." So they wound up in Utah, where they proceeded to make the desert bloom, practice polygamy, and produce many, many children, who, at least in the 20th century, were carefully indoctrinated and taught to ride bikes and go out and evangelize the world.

    When Utah, run by the Mormons, eventually applied for Statehood, that old problem of Polygamy reared up its ugly head once again, and it was stipulated that the territory must include in its proposed constitution a ban on such practices, which, of course, was accomplished forthwith, at least on paper.

    Today, the mainstream Mormon Church, whether you agree with their theology or not, is probably the most family-centered of all Christian sects, and the Mormon work ethic is beyond question; but the problem remains that sticky one surrounding the issue of polygamy. There are still pockets of Mormon polygamy, and the Prophet Jeffers movement is the most visible and adamant. The fact is, they DO indoctrinate young girls into the idea of becoming the wives of old men, often their cousins, and they ARE NOT given a choice in the matter. In fact, most people in the sect, other than those assigned the title of Prophet, don't have to make any choices at all. Needless to say, but I will anyway, the job of Prophet is not an elective office.

    So, to summarize, the Jeffers movement is an ultra-conservative off-shoot of Mormonism, who live and practice the pure "beliefs" of the original Prophet, Joseph Smith, who I doubt ever laid eyes on a member of the Ten Lost Tribes, and who, I must doubt, ever really found those stone tablets about Central American societies in upper New York State miraculously written in King James English. Whether this group is being "persecuted" by the State of Texas, the Feds, or just plain folks, the reason for such "persecution" is simple. This is a cult which practices mind control and raises young girls from birth as objects of sick lust. Period.

    This goes far beyond the principle of religious freedom. If your religion called for you violate the laws of your society, then you'd be in deep doo-doo, 1st Amendment or no 1st Amendment. If you believe the current unfortunate situation is an example of government stomping on the 1st Amendment, you need some good medicine....real bad, and real quick, and probably some close monitoring as well.


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Does anyone think this was done as a result of one phone call. Maybe use should let this play out and find out all the evidence before you start second guessing. Do you think that the officals would take that step if it was about one call. Some always have to point the finger at gov. And then there are the ones who want to believe it's the Catholics and Baptists are behind everything. Conspiracy nuts.

    By the way the "Fruit of the forbidden tree" can't be the phone call that referrs to something done and evidence collected improply by the police. Using your logic no tip could be taken into consideraction in any crime. See how easy it is for someone to just say something and have it believed by the uninformed. Sound like our political process.


  28. #28
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    Wow where to start. To begin with what happened to due process. Whether they have had someone in on the inside or not, I don't believe our government officials have the power that they are invoking. They say it is to protect these children. Well if the men are the problem because they are the "abusers" in this situation, why did they not arrest the men?

    My second issue with this is they say the women are victims because they are married to a man with more than one wife. Well they may or may not be "victims". If they were of age and chose to live in this lifestyle then why should they be called victims. Now if they were children at the time and forced to marry, then I suppose you could label them "victims". If the women are victims, then why take their children away from them? This is the real tragedy here is that the victims are being further victimized by our government.

    My final point would be to say if there is someone who broke the law, why punish everybody. If someone in my neighborhood committed a crime such as we are talking about, does that give CPS the right to come into my home and take my kids as well? What about the fact that a neighbor down the road from me has a daughter, 16 years old, who just had a kid? Well we should take everyones children until we get to the bottom of this...

    Due process under the law is guaranteed in our constitution for a reason.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Bill, "poisoned tree", not forbidden friut (I did write poison w/out the "ed" suffix. My mistake.) If one "poisons" the case by failing to properly execute the warrant then, supposedly any evidence that comes out of their efforts is, too, poisoned. What was the basis for the intrusion?Was there a warrant. If not see above.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    31 out of 53 girls age 14 to 17 that were removed are pregnant or already have kids. Wow, sounds like a great organization they have going on there.

    So, of you guys who are crying foul on the government, I assume you'd let your teenage daughters go stay with a friend there for a week, right?


  31. #31
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    Fine, Matt, but who is going to police the police. Surely not you. The wealth and might of the state are arrayed against any one finding himself in the defendant's chair. Is it to much to ask that they (who by the way seem to be writing all the rules) to follow the freaking rules.

    My daughters wouldn't go there for an hour, knowing what we all think we know now, and your asking that is an irrational question-an emotional red herring.


  32. #32
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    So, we should just all be allowed to live as we want with no police or governing body?

    If our system is so bad, what alternative do you propose?


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Again, some of you are directing your anger/ outrage/ fear at the wrong agency. Once a call is received, it must be acted upon. All calls are anonymous, so CPS would have had no way of knowing who the call came from. If you don't like what's going on, diss your legislature, not CPS.

    The investigator on site makes the call for temporary removal. It is customary if adults are uncooperative to questions, evasive, etc. to remove the child until the hearing. This is likely in this case because the parents would have been concerned about unrelated charges of polygamy. If parents cannot provide proof of parentage, children can be removed until it is established. That is or should be common sense.

    On an earlier question from David, CPS people are State employees of the Texas Department of Family Services. CPS is an old acronym still used. Unfortunately, the name was changed as the Agency had to begin taking care of the elderly who are more and more commonly abused by those who are charged with their care. They come from all religious backgrounds, as well as those involving no religion. They implement Texas law. Personal opinion has no bearing.

    Some of you act as though there is a group of Government employees somewhere rubbing their hands and asking "where can we go next to break up an innocent family?" My experience with these folks finds decent compassionate people, unimaginably overworked and under paid. Yes they make errors, but to a person, they act in the best interest of the child.

    And yes, Nick there will be more to this than has come to light. You can bet that the meat heads in the Media will tell nothing about this that doesn't sell beer or cars or whatever. As soon as this story loses its sizzle, it will go away. To whoever said it, it better damn sight be you who polices the police. There is no longer a free press to do it.

    To those of you who are upset; turn off your computer and go get active in solving the problem. Become a child advocate, volunteer your services to the parents, give money to a defense fund, write editorials, protest in the street, go visit the compound and form your own opinion, adopt an abandoned child. DO SOMETHING that means something.

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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    I think this might help answer your questions.

    Some had been beaten so badly they had suffered broken bones. Girls, some as young as 12 and 13, had been expected to have sex with much older men.
    I still struggle with my past. I know I was brainwashed, but I struggle to free myself from the doctrines I was taught.
    Forced to marry a 50-year-old with six wives when just 18 ... One woman's harrowing tale of escaping the Texas polygamist sect -- Signs of the Times News


  35. #35
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    Mar 2007
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    That sect was a physical, mental, and emotional hazard to the young girls who had the minsfortune of being raised there. I don't know how that can be argued based upon the details which are now filtering out.


  36. #36
    David Banks's Avatar
    David Banks Guest

    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Looks like my instincts may be correct after all.
    Court: Texas wrongly seized sect children - FLDS hearings - MSNBC.com


  37. #37
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    Mar 2007
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    No David. It doesn't look at all that way to me. It looks to me like three judges on a panel decided to interpret family law differently than most juvenile judges would have.

    Texas law and DFPS (CPS) are fully aware that removal of children must be based on the perception of immanent danger. In the opinions of the investigators, it does exist. In the opinions of a three judge panel with no history of family law or known juvenile experience, it didn't exist for all children.

    As a specific part of their ruling, no immediate danger was present for those girls who had not yet reached puberty. No immediate danger was present for the boys since they were being trained to be perps. They ruled that even though the "adults" have not cooperated with identifying parents for specific children and have not fully cooperated with DNA testing to identify parents, that the members of the cult should get the kids back anyway.

    This isn't an exercise in some Draconian defense of parental rights. Children's welfare is at stake.

    No, David. It doesn't look like your instincts were correct. It looks like, once again, America has upheld its long held practice of Children as chattel.

    The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
    - Paul Fix

  38. #38
    David Banks's Avatar
    David Banks Guest

    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Walker View Post
    No David. It doesn't look at all that way to me. It looks to me like three judges on a panel decided to interpret family law differently than most juvenile judges would have.

    So a three Judge panel whom has had 5 weeks to weigh the evidence does not know what they are talking about? Lets blame the Judges for the States lack of evidence.
    Thom with all due respect because you seem to be involved with CPS and probably do some good work I really do not want the State getting in the practice of taking kids from parents en mass. Is it true 10,000 kids were taken in Texas last year?

    Texas law and DFPS (CPS) are fully aware that removal of children must be based on the perception of immanent danger. In the opinions of the investigators, it does exist. In the opinions of a three judge panel with no history of family law or known juvenile experience, it didn't exist for all children.

    Again where is the investigators evidence that they should round up and take from parents over 400 kids? If it ends up being 5, prosecute the 5 and leave the place alone. Many of them live in separate houses on the ranch.
    You can get more than 5 underage pregnancies in any area of America.

    As a specific part of their ruling, no immediate danger was present for those girls who had not yet reached puberty. No immediate danger was present for the boys since they were being trained to be perps. They ruled that even though the "adults" have not cooperated with identifying parents for specific children and have not fully cooperated with DNA testing to identify parents, that the members of the cult should get the kids back anyway.

    I heard that all the adults with children have cooperated with DNA testing.

    This isn't an exercise in some Draconian defense of parental rights. Children's welfare is at stake.

    So you say. Where is your evidence? The State is not coming up with much.

    No, David. It doesn't look like your instincts were correct. It looks like, once again, America has upheld its long held practice of Children as chattel.
    Slaves to the State or your parents?


    Number of underage mothers claimed by Texas continues to dwindle
    By Brooke Adams
    The Salt Lake Tribune
    Article Last Updated: 05/23/2008 09:48:05 AM MDT

    The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services acknowledged that Tina Louise and three other "disputed minors" are actually adult women - admissions that came as the Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled it never had sufficient evidence to remove any children from a polygamous sect.
    At least three more women were to be declared adults Thursday afternoon or Friday, but those hearings were canceled after word of the decision reached the Tom Green County Courthouse.
    And more are on the docket next week.
    The admissions by the state left a rapidly diminishing count of women in a disputed age category that is central to its claim of underage mothers found at the YFZ Ranch.
    The state alleged that 31 women ages 14 to 17 were pregnant, mothers or both, a count that included 26 mothers whose ages were disputed.
    [/B]As of noon Thursday, just eight mothers remained in the disputed category.

    [Here is a good example where we Americans just tend to believe what the police/prosecutor/newspaper says. There are comments on this thread how there were 31 out of 50 kids either pregnant or have children when that was not the case at all. The press today just wants to sell newspapers and will sensationalize anything to meet that end even if it means hurting children and our freedom. Someone else mentioned there was a bed in the church for underage sex. Turns out that was hogwash. It was for people who pray ling ours to rest. Don't we love dirty laundry.Sure there might be some wrong doing here in a few cases to our standards but as a whole I bet those people have more morality than our society in general. Just look at all the smut on TV/Internet etc.


    The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the state offered "legally and factually insufficient" grounds for the "extreme" measure of removing all children from the ranch, from babies to teenagers.

    The state never provided evidence that the children were in any immediate danger, the only grounds in Texas law for taking children from their parents without court approval, the appeals court said.

    It also failed to show evidence that more than five of the teenage girls were being sexually abused, and never alleged any sexual or physical abuse against the other children, the court said.

    It was not immediately clear whether the children scattered across foster facilities statewide might soon be reunited with parents. The ruling gave Texas District Judge Barbara Walther 10 days to vacate her custody order, and the state could appeal.


    'They're very thrilled'
    FLDS spokesman Rod Parker said sect members feel vindicated, having argued from the beginning that they were being persecuted for their beliefs.

    "They're very thrilled. They're looking forward to seeing the children returned," he said.

    Julie Balovich of Texas RioGrande Legal Aid said she expected attorneys for all of the parents to seek to join the ruling.

    "It's a great day for Texas justice. This was the right decision," said Balovich, who represented 38 families. Balovich was joined by several smiling mothers who declined to comment at a news conference outside the courthouse.


    Although every child at the ranch was seized, only a few dozen of the roughly 440 children were teenage girls, and half were under 5.

    The appeals court said the state was wrong to consider the entire ranch as an individual household and that the state could not take all the children from a community on the notion that some parents in the community might be abusers.

    "The existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the department's witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger," the court said in its ruling.

    BThe court said that although five girls had become pregnant at age 15 or 16, the state gave no evidence about the circumstances of the pregnancies. It noted that minors as young as 16 can wed in Texas with parental consent, and even younger children can marry if a court approves it.B

    Balovich said the appeals court "has stood up for the legal rights of these families and given these mothers hope that their families will be brought back together."

    Chaotic case
    Even before Thursday's ruling, the state's allegations of teenage girls being pushed into sex appeared to be deflating.

    Of the 31 sect members CPS once said were underage mothers, 15 have been reclassified as adults — one was 27 years old — and an attorney for a 14-year-old girl said in court that she had no children and was not pregnant, as officials previously asserted.

    The custody case has been chaotic from the beginning.

    CPS has struggled with even the identities of the children for weeks and scattered them across foster facilities all over the sprawling state, with some siblings separated by as much as 600 miles.

    The sect children were removed en masse during a raid that began April 3 after someone called a domestic abuse hot line claiming to be a pregnant abused teenage wife. The girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the calls were a hoax.

    The FLDS, which teaches that polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway of the Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago. Members contend they are being persecuted by state officials for their religious beliefs.

    Last edited by David Banks; 05-23-2008 at 02:26 PM.

  39. #39
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    I wonder if the tune would be different if, for instance....your 12 year old daughter from a previous marriage was living in this compound? Or maybe your grown daughter has taken your grand-daughter to live there?

    I used to work with a man whose mother signed over everything she owned and followed Jim Jones - and died there. I remember him talking about his frustration, and how he couldn't get anyone to listen to him, or do anything about what was going on.

    I think he would have liked an over-reaction, instead of NO-action.


  40. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Dallas, Texas
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    Default Re: Mormon Sect Raid

    Seems to me that this is a good example of the court system actually working. Nothing is hidden behind closed doors, the proceedings are in open court for the whole world to examine, praise or criticize. Both sides are having their proverbial "day in court".
    This is not a political game to garner votes, nor a witch hunt, good people are stepping in where it is believed that laws were broken in order to protect the defenseless. It is not a perfect system, but hopefully everything will be sorted out in the end. It is too early to declare a "winner" at this point.
    And by the way, the most recent ruling by the appeals court did not strike down everything that had been done and send all the kids back to the compound, it was a point of law that is only part of the process.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Dallas, Texas

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