Thread: A Recovery Plan that would Work

The Birk Economic Recovery Plan

This idea sounds just crazy enough to possibly work, so naturally it won't be given serious consideration. How great is our bureaucracy!!

Hi Pals,

I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG.

Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a We Deserve It Dividend.

To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up..

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billion that equals $425,000.00.

My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a We Deserve It Dividend.

Of course, it would NOT be tax free.

So let's assume a tax rate of 30%.

Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes.

That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam.

But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket.

A husband and wife has $595,000.00.

What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?

Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.

Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads

Put away money for college - it'll be there

Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.

Buy a new car - create jobs

Invest in the market - capital drives growth

Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves

Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else

Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( 'vote buy' ) economic incentive that is being proposed by one of our candidates for President.

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+!

As for AIG - liquidate it.

Sell off its parts.

Let American General go back to being American General.

Sell off the real estate.

Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.

Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't.

Sure it's a crazy idea that can 'never work.'

But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party!

How do you spell Economic Boom?

I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion

We Deserve It Dividend more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC

And remember, The Birk plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam.

Ahhh...I feel so much better getting that off my chest.

Kindest personal regards,

Birk

T. J. Birkenmeier, A Creative Guy & Citizen of the Republic

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[quote=Jerry McCarthy;57910]The Birk Economic Recovery Plan

My friend sent me this as well.

So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billion that equals $425,000.00.

My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a We Deserve It Dividend.

It's $425, not $425,000. That would be $85 trillion. Don't get me wrong, I'm not thrilled about the bailout either.. The entire $700 billion package was something like $3,700 per person, which is a tremendous amount in my book. I do think that the CEOs and upper management of companies receiving government assistance ought to be docked at least their last two years worth of pay and benefits for fleecing the American people. That might be almost a billion right there, depending on how many people are involved.

I sent Nancy Pelosi an e-mail suggesting that if Bush wants to give "Golden Parachutes" to his buddies and cronies, that should be matched as follows for the American People:

For every dollar value of golden parachute given, one home mortgage needs to be written off as "Paid In Full", with each home mortgage selected by a random drawing from all home mortgages in the country.

If Bush wants his buddies and cronies to get $100 million in golden parachute value, then 100 million mortgages will be written off as "Paid In Full".

I have not heard back from her, wonder why?

Given that the US population is now just over 300 million, and the average family has 2 kids, that makes around 50% of 300 million are adults, or 150 million adults, most mortgages are for couples (as compared to singles), that makes around 50% of 150 million are mortgages, or about 75 million mortgages. You could run the numbers for single and that would bump that number up, then run the number for renters, which would bump the number down, so the number of mortgages nationwide are probably around 50 million or so.

Guess that means that after the first $50 million in golden parachute value, Bush's buddies and cronies get a free pass, while the rest of us get our mortgages paid off. I can live with that.

Math is Hard

$425...$425,000. What's the big deal about a few zeroes and a comma?

I guess we can all be thankful that math-challenged, Mr T. J. Birkenmeier, isn't in charge of the money!

I say we vote Jerry McCarthy in for President

Do I hear all yes vtes for Jerrys plan and Jerry as President?????????

I like the idea

[quote=Jim Robinson;57912]

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

It's $425,

The entire $700 billion package was something like $3,700 per person,

.
I'd rather have $425 bucks ( where do they think the Monies come from ) put Back into My Pocket.

Than Pay $3,700 ( yeah like they will hold the losses to that ) to Bail Out a Bank / Investor that did not know Mortgage Backed Securities ( they bought AGI Insurance to cover losses) was not FDIC Protected .

If they didn't understand What They Were Buying was Risky then Why Were They Buying Loss Insurance ?

I got to pay $3,700 plus so they may continue to live a " Life Style Accustomed To. "

Well math may be hard but if you have 300 million recipients (every one is entitled) then its only 283.00. That's good for a few movies and some pop corn.

Originally Posted by John Ghent

Well math may be hard but if you have 300 million recipients (every one is entitled) then its only 283.00. That's good for a few movies and some pop corn.

Not done as I proposed.

And, yes, I realize I was only talking about the "Golden Parachutes" to be give out to those who helped cause and create this problem, that I'm not referring to "the bailout" dollars themselves.

My equation is not base on $ value = $ value, my equation is based on each $1 value = 1 mortgage "Paid in Full". Whether or not that mortgage is a $50,000 mortgage or a $500,000 mortgage.

Regarding the bailout dollars, all the funny math in the world is not going to help, it was funny math which created it in the first place.

$700 Billion / 300 Million residents in the US = $2,333.33 each

Jerry,

What about the people who have lived responsibly scrimped and saved and managed to pay off their mortgage.

What do they get while your plan is paying off others mortgages gratis?

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Jerry,

What about the people who have lived responsibly scrimped and saved and managed to pay off their mortgage.

What do they get while your plan is paying off others mortgages gratis?

Like with all plans, some people just do not get to partake of them.

EVERY PLAN FOR EVERYTHING done in this country has limitations on who is covered/included/can participate, for a wide variety of reasons.

However, *being as this is a mortgage debt crisis*, those mortgage debts will be what is cleared.

When the government (us) buys those companies, the government (us) are buying those old loans. So, to simplify matters, instead of paying ungodly amounts of money *to the holders of those loans* so they can recover their money ... the pay off money should go the people who owe that money, which is then paid to the lenders being bailed out, and, viola, you have accomplished two things with the single stroke of the pen.

Not only have you given those lenders the money they want, but you gave them that money via the debtors, who are now no longer debtors, their mortgages are "Paid in Full", resulting in ... what mortgage crisis? The lenders have their money, the people have their homes, and now everyone had *A LOT* of cash monthly to *BUY OTHER THINGS*, which will stimulate the economy.

Let's just take a typical $200,000, 30 year, 6% fixed rate, loan, the P&I will be right at $1,200 per month, each and every month for that 30 years.

Those people now have $1,200 per month to put into the economy that they did not have previously. Let's go back to my 50 million mortgage number I pulled out of the air with a very WAG calculation based on 300 million people. You now have 50 million people (either couples or singles, counting both as 1) with $1,200 PER MONTH spending cash.

That amounts to $60 Trillion EACH AND EVERY MONTH. In just 12 months (1 year) that $700 would have been recovered back into the economy, and the next year, and each year after, the economy gains by that same $700 Trillion - which certainly looks a lot better coming in than it does going out.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Like with all plans, some people just do not get to partake of them.

EVERY PLAN FOR EVERYTHING done in this country has limitations on who is covered/included/can participate, for a wide variety of reasons.

However, *being as this is a mortgage debt crisis*, those mortgage debts will be what is cleared.

When the government (us) buys those companies, the government (us) are buying those old loans. So, to simplify matters, instead of paying ungodly amounts of money *to the holders of those loans* so they can recover their money ... the pay off money should go the people who owe that money, which is then paid to the lenders being bailed out, and, viola, you have accomplished two things with the single stroke of the pen.

Not only have you given those lenders the money they want, but you gave them that money via the debtors, who are now no longer debtors, their mortgages are "Paid in Full", resulting in ... what mortgage crisis? The lenders have their money, the people have their homes, and now everyone had *A LOT* of cash monthly to *BUY OTHER THINGS*, which will stimulate the economy.

Let's just take a typical $200,000, 30 year, 6% fixed rate, loan, the P&I will be right at $1,200 per month, each and every month for that 30 years.

Those people now have $1,200 per month to put into the economy that they did not have previously. Let's go back to my 50 million mortgage number I pulled out of the air with a very WAG calculation based on 300 million people. You now have 50 million people (either couples or singles, counting both as 1) with $1,200 PER MONTH spending cash.

That amounts to $60 Trillion EACH AND EVERY MONTH. In just 12 months (1 year) that $700 would have been recovered back into the economy, and the next year, and each year after, the economy gains by that same $700 Trillion - which certainly looks a lot better coming in than it does going out.

Ok

I am getting confused with all this bail out pay off thing.

The way my substandard brain cells understands it.

We are not going to pay any ones mortgage off. If in fact the gov winds up with a bunch of homes they will eventually be sold.

If we already own them it is not like we have to be paying a mortgage to anyone. They will eventually be sold, some with a loss. The amount of that loss is what we will actually be in debt for. But other mortgages that we own will continue to be paid and hence netting an eventual profit canceling out part of that debt.

I know things look bad and will take a while to sort out but it will be sorted out.

What has to be done is some enforced regs be slacked off a bit. It was not the folks with no money down that created this it. It was giving those mortgages out to folks that could not afford to pay the mortgages then received the bigger slap in the face giving them a mortgage they could not afford but then went up many % on those mortgages that could not be afforded anyway.

If they truly want to solve the mortgage/economic crisis they are going to have to have folks buying homes. No homes bought, economy deteriorates and we will be in the same boat.

At that point there is no more saving the world. If anyone thinks we are doing this just to save ourselves they are wrong. We are doing this because if we do not the entire world economy will collapse and the stone age comes back for about 10 to 20 years. !0's of thousands of bankruptcies. No one working. Should I go on??????????????

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Like with all plans, some people just do not get to partake of them.
..................................

EVERY PLAN FOR EVERYTHING done in this country has limitations on who is covered/included/can participate, for a wide variety of reasons.

Those people now have $1,200 per month to put into the economy that they did not have previously. Let's go back to my 50 million mortgage number I pulled out of the air with a very WAG calculation based on 300 million people. You now have 50 million people (either couples or singles, counting both as 1) with $1,200 PER MONTH spending cash.

That amounts to $60 Trillion EACH AND EVERY MONTH. In just 12 months (1 year) that $700 would have been recovered back into the economy, and the next year, and each year after, the economy gains by that same $700 Trillion - which certainly looks a lot better coming in than it does going out.

Once again we have a math problem.

Your WAG is very wild. There are not 50 million underpreforming mortgages.

If there where your numbers would only come out to $60 Billion EACH AND EVERY MONTH

95% of mortgages are just fine and being paid in a timely manner.

Somewhere around $11 Trillion is mortgage debt exists presently.

It disturbs me that you are OK with screwing those that live responsibly by having them pay for the malcontents and deadbeats.

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Once again we have a math problem.

Your WAG is very wild. There are not 50 million underpreforming mortgages.

If there where your numbers would only come out to $60 Billion EACH AND EVERY MONTH

95% of mortgages are just fine and being paid in a timely manner.

Somewhere around $11 Trillion is mortgage debt exists presently.

It disturbs me that you are OK with screwing those that live responsibly by having them pay for the malcontents and deadbeats.

If you fell on very hard times for the next several months and lost your home and had to file bankruptcy would that mean you were a malcontent or deadbeat.

Why is it every one has to have a label. Why is it that because these folks tried to grab a piece of the American dream when they thought they could not have it becomes dead beats.

You are a foolish man. They did not give themselves the loan. They did not break the banking and borrowing rules. The vast majority are not malcontents and deadbeats.

You have a pretty crappy outlook on life and appear to not like about anyone but yourself and your own delusional thoughts about the rest of the human race.

You are more guilty than anyone on here. You read and hear things that agree with your own delusional thoughts and then inflict them on everyone else.

I would have kept my mouth shut if it were not for your malcontent and deadbeat statement.

I cannot stomach talk like that about other humans that are just trying to achieve what so many others have.

Get it straight. They did not lend themselves the money. The boys with the big homes and properties and portfolios lent them "other" peoples money.

Originally Posted by fritzkelly

Unfortunately, the burden is on the people actually paying taxes (100 million at the most), not every man, woman and child.

Fritz

Paying taxes or not has absolutely nothing to do with who is going to suffer with this dilema. Everyone will, from the lawn mower man to the VP at the bank, taxes or not will all suffer from this mess.

Do you really think they are counting on taxes paid to pay this off. If they were they would not be doing it because there would be no chance of tax payer money paying all this deabt of and still functioning as a country. They are counting on the housing market righting itself and possibly even making a profit. They are counting on the lawn mowing guy and the VP to go out and buy a big screen TV and a new car and a new or existing home.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

If you fell on very hard times for the next several months and lost your home and had to file bankruptcy would that mean you were a malcontent or deadbeat.

That's a fair question and perhaps my characterizations were a bit harsh. I am only trying to understand why some are willing for the government to take tax money from one taxpayer and give it to another without conditions.
Jerry's "plan" is a handout not a handup and it asks those who have been responsible to pay for those who have not.
I am big believer in helping people to help themselves. There will always be some that need our help because they are not able to help themselves.

Why is it every one has to have a label. Why is it that because these folks tried to grab a piece of the American dream when they thought they could not have it becomes dead beats.

The lables just make it a bit easier to describe and understand where someone is coming from. Grabbing for the American Dream is great and should be encouraged but when did it ever make sense to give someone a mortgage that didn't have the means to pay it back or give mortgages based on "stated income" (liar lones)?
It would be hard to deny that people took out mortgages and later sucked the equity out of the home to live on or buy toys.

You are a foolish man. They did not give themselves the loan. They did not break the banking and borrowing rules. The vast majority are not malcontents and deadbeats.

If I am foolish I will wear that lable proudly. Lenders acted recklessly but where encouraged to lend to those they shouldn't have by political pressure and to avoid the charge of "redlining". Many people bought more house than they could afford with the expectation that it would appreciate in value quickly. they alos used ARMs to buy even more house with a lower payment. Then when the reality of the eventual rate adjustment happened, they where unable to pay up. It worked for along time but ended up being a giant pnozi scheme.

You have a pretty crappy outlook on life and appear to not like about anyone but yourself and your own delusional thoughts about the rest of the human race.

Not at all. I do get tired of those that want to excuse reckless behavior and even reward it and ask the more respnsible among us to pay for it.

You are more guilty than anyone on here. You read and hear things that agree with your own delusional thoughts and then inflict them on everyone else.

Anyone? wow! I had no idea. I share my point of view and you are entitled to yours.
It's still a free country.
BTW-I read and view a lot from both sides but my core principals on which I base my views have remained unchanged.

I would have kept my mouth shut if it were not for your malcontent and deadbeat statement.

Again, my apologies as it was not intended to offend.
It was overstated for effect. Looks like it worked.

I cannot stomach talk like that about other humans that are just trying to achieve what so many others have.

Get it straight. They did not lend themselves the money. The boys with the big homes and properties and portfolios lent them "other" peoples money.

You simply cannot blame only the lenders.

Mortgage holders received money and they signed papers with a promise to pay it back. Much of this mess was created by very loose lending practices encouraged by our political leaders but that does not absolve the borrowers from responsibility.

Thanks for the opportunity to explain myself further.

P.S. The concept of "preditory lending" is ludicrouse. No one put a gun to their back to borrow the money.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

We are not going to pay any ones mortgage off. If in fact the gov winds up with a bunch of homes they will eventually be sold.

Ted,

That's my point, as offered, the money is to be given out to offset the "bad paper" and the mortgage companies (so to speak) "get the money and the government gets the bad paper".

With my version, the same money ends up in the same place, however, the money also transverses through the mortgagee's hands, then to the mortgagor, who receives the money as "Payment in Full" for the paper, which is now worth something, it is worth the price the government paid for it - the price of the mortgage.

The only thing that changes is that instead of protecting Wall Street only, it protects Main Street too.

No more money, just no more debt either. The money actually "buys" something.

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Once again we have a math problem.

Your WAG is very wild. There are not 50 million underpreforming mortgages.

Here is where we get into a READING problem again.

*I* said "50 million mortgages".

*YOU* *restated it* as "50 million underperforming mortgages".

See the difference?

If there where your numbers would only come out to $60 Billion EACH AND EVERY MONTH

Okay, my math was off there - got lost in all those 0s, we will use your correct $60,000,000,000 ($60 Billion) EACH AND EVERY MONTH.

$60 Billion X 12 = $720 Billion each year. I was off by 3 zeros on the right end. Okay, using YOUR correct number, that is $60 BILLION going back into the economy EACH AND EVERY MONTH. $720 BILLION each year. That means it would take 10 years to to pay off that debt.

10 years ... versus how long are they saying (has anyone even dared say)?

Let me guess ... 10 years versus our children's grandchildren paying it off.

And you think that is a BAD THING?

95% of mortgages are just fine and being paid in a timely manner.

And your point is? Remember, *I* INCLUDED* *ALL* mortgages. *YOU* changed it.

Somewhere around $11 Trillion is mortgage debt exists presently.

Okay, let's see how far off my WAG was (by the way, where did you get that number, I told you I pulled mine out of the air and what I used to pull it out of the air with) ... so ... you got that number ... where?

I said 50 million mortgages, average $200,000: how far off was I?

50,000,000 X $200,000 = 50,000,000,000 X 200 = 5,000,000,000,000 X 2 = $10 Trillion.

Did I do that right?

I WAG at: $10,000,000,000,000
You said: $11,000,000,000,000

Dang! I was only $1 Trillion off, that's only 10%! For a WAG based on some WAG assumptions!

It disturbs me that you are OK with screwing those that live responsibly by having them pay for the malcontents and deadbeats.

And it disturbs me that you think as you do, and that you read as poorly as you do. I did not say having them pay for malcontents and deadbeats, I said having them pay all. But, unless you can read, you will not get that part. You are to intent on trying to put your spin on it that you did not stop to read what I wrote, you read what you wanted to read, so you could try to spin it the way you wanted it.

Got to give you one thing though, if you are correct about that $11 Trillion, DANG! YOU MADE ME LOOK GOOD! Thank you.

Guess that makes us even.

Correct me if I did my math wrong again.

(Why did I bother to say that, *I KNOW* you will. That's why this board works. )

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Get it straight. They did not lend themselves the money. The boys with the big homes and properties and portfolios lent them "other" peoples money.

Actually the problem is that the blamed government got involved in the economy and look where it's gotten us. This didn't start with Bush. It started with Jimmy Carter. The government pretty much strong-armed the banking sector into giving loans to people who didn't qualify in order to promulgate some utopian societal ideals. Sound financial principles went out the window because of government engineering.

Big government never accomplished anything but an over bloated bureaucracy, taxing businesses to death, and burdening middle class tax payers with entitlement programs that are strangling the pocket books of the average American. Oh, and tanking the economy. Let's not forget that.

(Um, yeah...I'm a just a teeny bit passionate about this subject...)

Originally Posted by Hanne Moon

Oh, and tanking the economy. Let's not forget that.

(Um, yeah...I'm a just a teeny bit passionate about this subject...)

.
I think she was talking to You Ted.
.

Originally Posted by Hanne Moon

Actually the problem is that the blamed government got involved in the economy and look where it's gotten us. This didn't start with Bush. It started with Jimmy Carter. The government pretty much strong-armed the banking sector into giving loans to people who didn't qualify in order to promulgate some utopian societal ideals. Sound financial principles went out the window because of government engineering.

Big government never accomplished anything but an over bloated bureaucracy, taxing businesses to death, and burdening middle class tax payers with entitlement programs that are strangling the pocket books of the average American. Oh, and tanking the economy. Let's not forget that.

(Um, yeah...I'm a just a teeny bit passionate about this subject...)

The problem being with any capitalistic, democratic country is (just like everywhere and every on) the rich want to get richer and most have absolutely no concern for anyone but their own gain.

Yes the little guys wanted a piece of the pie and they gave it to them. The vast majority had good intentions. They just wanted a home to call their own. There were some that just plane took advantage of the system to try and profit from it. The idea like all the talking heads are saying that all the little guys were counting on the homes increasing in price so they could sell them for a profit is bull. Absolute bull.

Most were hoping like all that income would increase in that time and they would both still be working and refinance later to get away from the interest increase.

Yes I am passionate about this. I came from poorer than poor, family of five boys, single mom. I know what it is like to scrape, dig and build however you can. I stated earlier that I know the regs are going to get to steep. If they do then there will be no chance of recovering for years to come. If someone can afford a home at the time of application and don't have anything but closing costs, sell it to them. If the regs tighten up so much to include a substantial amount down, forget about it. The housing industry and everyone associated will die a slow death. That obviously includes home inspectors

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

The vast majority had good intentions.

Unfortunately Ted, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Somehow, the American public has gotten the idea that just because they want something, that makes them automatically entitled to it. You can scream over that one all you want to, but the lack of savings and the credit card mentality of our population attests to what I'm saying.

There are standards for everything. Financial standards are in place so that fiscally sound and responsible people can get the credit they need, and those who haven't quite made it have a goal to work for. The government forcing the banking industry to shortcut that system has gotten us in the place we're in today.

Forming organizations and cooperatives of people to build housing for the poorer of the nation like Habitat for Humanity is how you help them, not overburdening them with financial debt that they have no way to pay back. You don't buy things based on what you hope you'll be making in the future. You buy based on your ability to pay back at the present time. It may not be pretty, it may not be what we want, but it is reality.

Okay...your turn!!

Originally Posted by Hanne Moon

Unfortunately Ted, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Somehow, the American public has gotten the idea that just because they want something, that makes them automatically entitled to it. You can scream over that one all you want to, but the lack of savings and the credit card mentality of our population attests to what I'm saying.

There are standards for everything. Financial standards are in place so that fiscally sound and responsible people can get the credit they need, and those who haven't quite made it have a goal to work for. The government forcing the banking industry to shortcut that system has gotten us in the place we're in today.

Forming organizations and cooperatives of people to build housing for the poorer of the nation like Habitat for Humanity is how you help them, not overburdening them with financial debt that they have no way to pay back. You don't buy things based on what you hope you'll be making in the future. You buy based on your ability to pay back at the present time. It may not be pretty, it may not be what we want, but it is reality.

Okay...your turn!!

Sorry

I don't even know you but for some reason you think this all came about because of something Jimmy Carter did back in 1980 or what ever. Please.

Scream about it all I want.

Get a grip on reality. I am not talking of the almost homeless on the street. Habitat for humanity. Please. When you buy that new car and get a lone for 50 years you are betting on the future on being able to pay it back. You also bet on the future that as you go thru life you will be more set in life and your savings and home is in tact (for the moment). You wake up everyday expecting your income to still be there,

Well guess what. Tomorrow your world could turn to crap and the bottom fall out. OOOPs, there goes your job, your car, your house, your entire way of living.

Don't fool yourself for one more minute. You might be a little more sound at the moment but that could only be for the moment.

I was not talking about the guy that could not afford to pay the mortgage. I was talking about the guy that could.

You know, I hear people spout off all the time like they have something or are something. I can guarantee I have made more in my life than most of the people on this site. I can also guarantee you I have lost more money in my life at one time or another than most people on this site have made. I am not boasting about either point at all and I would not in the slightest because I am not that type of man.

Where do you think your income came from. Oh yeah that's right. It had nothing to do with all we fellow Americans spending all our money. No. you folks did it all by yourself. There is no such thing as doing it all by yourself. In a capitalistic society that we live in it takes everyone buying goodies including homes.

This happened in the last 6 to ten years and mostly in the past 6 years. Did you forget about the trillions we we in debt when old Ronny ended his presidency. We recovered from that. Do you remember the first GB and then Clinton and the dot com boom. We recovered from it. This whole time folks have been making money. Some for almost a couple of decades now. We are all guilty. All of us are responsible. All the investors and money folks and the sucking up of what they new to be bad paper are responsible for this. The big screen TV you bought and the reason why the engineer down the street for the soda pop company and the building and buying and profit makers are all responsible for this. The appraisers evaluating homes for what they did and the banks saying, yup looks good to me, are responsible for this.

By the way the road to hell is paved by the folks who blame everyone else and the slightly less fortunate. Most of the mortgages are relatively sound. Will there be many foreclosures, oh yeah. The amount of foreclosures in DFW back in the 2005 in March if I can remember correctly was a few thousand or more. Guess what happened. The banks gave more mortgages and the investors bought them up like candy. The banks and the investors were gambling on making there fortunes over night and had no concern for what was happening to the economy.

Shoot. I could go on forever.

I will repeat the question. How do you think you and me and everyone else has been making money. It happens when we all spend money. Everyone works.

And don't forget. You are also the American public. Anything could have happened in your family that could have caused a completely different world for you and still can. Then maybe you can go beg to Habitat for humanity so you can have a home to call your own.

Originally Posted by Hanne Moon

Unfortunately Ted, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

No, the road to hell is paved with and by the unbridled greed of the rich getting richer, and businesses (big business mainly) taking advantage of their lowly workers.

Without your dreaded government interventions, we would all still be working for "The Company" and owing not only "Our Soles" but the soles of our children to "The Company Store".

THE ONLY reason that no longer exists on a large scale is that the old dreaded Big Government *FORCED* "The Company" to change.

Oh, and Big Government had to *FORCE* the seemingly obvious things like: racial equal rights, the ADA, and a very long list of things which humans should do for humans, but which only someone with a bigger hammer has the capacity to force business and other humans to do.

Take away Big Government and you will have Dictatorships, which then become Really Big Government because they tell you when and where you can piss, and if you are not in the corruption line, you are (like everyone else) ... simply poor to the core. There is no middle class or in between, only the corrupt really wealthy Really Big Government officials and the really poor slummers living off their finds in the giant dumps.

It's not that you "don't want Big Government", it's that you want 'Big Government to only control what you want, the way you want it', in which case, you say 'see, it's not really big government', 'I get to do what I want, but you don't'.

I was an Independent for years, then registered Republican for decades, then, just recently, after having had my fill of Bush I and Bush II, I registered Democrat when we moved. I'm still an Independent by nature, I just dislike dishonest and hypocritical people, and there are more of them in the Republican ranks than in the Democratic ranks.

And it has been the Republican ranks who ran most of the country into the toilet, and, yes, the Democrats could has slowed it down, if only they had some guts to stand up for what they believe. The trouble is, though, that crooks are more likely to take a stand than good people are ... that's how crooks survive throughout time.

Your turn.

Ted,

Don't worry about her too much, she gets off on charging $50 for a worthless test, acknowledging that she only does it because the state allows it.

Her response will likely be that the state demands it, but, in what she has posted before, she could (*COULD* if she wanted to) DO THE RIGHT THING and provide a proper septic inspection ... but she and her husband *chose* not to do so.

So, instead of having a truck pump the tank out and do it the right way for several hundred dollars, they walk around and proclaim it is all okie dokie, gimme you 50 bucks.

After all, she will likely respond, ... if she did not do it ... someone else would.

But I already addressed that in a post on another thread.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Correct me if I did my math wrong again.

(Why did I bother to say that, *I KNOW* you will. That's why this board works. )

Math looks good Gerry.

I looked up the mortgage debt held from late last year. It may have changed.

I still don't understand why you want the government to pay off all existing mortgages.

Can they buy me new car too?

Any money the government has comes out of our pockets as far as I know.

I'm also concerned of saddling our children and grand children with debt.

Until spending is reigned in the debt will continue to balloon until the bubble and the economy bursts.

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Math looks good Gerry.

I looked up the mortgage debt held from late last year. It may have changed.

I still don't understand why you want the government to pay off all existing mortgages.

Can they buy me new car too?

Any money the government has comes out of our pockets as far as I know.

I'm also concerned of saddling our children and grand children with debt.

Until spending is reigned in the debt will continue to balloon until the bubble and the economy bursts.

I don't know why I am responding to this because it is way to inflamatory.

The only thing I will say is that right now if the spending is reined in even slightly to far, there will still be a collapse.

You can not drive a car into a brick wall at 80 and survive. It has to be a car with 4 wheel anti lock breaks on a dry smooth flat surface that slows down steadily and not out of control. You can not just rein it in to a screaching hault. There has to be a buffer. As sad as it is there has to be this Big Goverment intervention or we are all screwed.

MARK MY WORDS

I think I made my point and will shut up for now.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

No, the road to hell is paved with and by the unbridled greed of the rich getting richer, and businesses (big business mainly) taking advantage of their lowly workers.

It's not that you "don't want Big Government", it's that you want 'Big Government to only control what you want, the way you want it', in which case, you say 'see, it's not really big government', 'I get to do what I want, but you don't'.

I was an Independent for years, then registered Republican for decades, then, just recently, after having had my fill of Bush I and Bush II, I registered Democrat when we moved. I'm still an Independent by nature, I just dislike dishonest and hypocritical people, and there are more of them in the Republican ranks than in the Democratic ranks.

And it has been the Republican ranks who ran most of the country into the toilet, and, yes, the Democrats could has slowed it down, if only they had some guts to stand up for what they believe. The trouble is, though, that crooks are more likely to take a stand than good people are ... that's how crooks survive throughout time.

Your turn.

Hi Jerry!!

This financial housing fiasco came into being starting in the 1970's with Jimmy Carter. Regan continued it, Clinton expanded on it, and neither Bush has done a darn thing about it. The thing about economies is that cause and effect usually don't happen really close together. It's like a snowball....it starts out little and by the time it's recognized as a hazard, it's an avalanche.

The Democrats and the Republicans are equally responsible for the mess we're in. The Congress is where the bills are made and the deals struck, and the Democrats held both houses of Congress for over 40 years until 1992. Then the Republicans came into power with a slim majority and a Democrat president. Then the Republicans had it until 2006 when they got kicked out by a ticked off electorate. The Democrats have a "let's tax everyone to death" mentality and the Republicans are spineless. Both parties are equally greedy and corrupt. Both parties' moral compass has been broken for a long, long time. You won't get any disagreement on that from me.

But you are wrong when you say I actually want Big Government when it suits me. I want the darn government out of my business is what I want. I want that government accountable to the people, and not sitting up there with their elitist mindset thinking that they're so smart, that they have to tell me how to manage my life. I think it stinks that the average American has to work through mid-May just to pay all the taxes that he owes for the year. I'm sick and tired of my elected officials living high on the hog in Washington D.C. and paying less than 10% in taxes. It ticks me off that a member of congress can be voted out of office, indicted on charges of betraying the public trust, and thrown in jail, but he'll still collect his $200,000 pension for the rest of his life. I'm sick of the Al Gores of this world telling me that my "carbon footprint" (talk about bogus crap!) is the cause of the melting ice caps, but his private jet and mansion in Nashville that burns to the tune of thousands of dollars a month in electricity is somehow exempt from that. The government has even gotten into my ceiling fans. I can't buy a light kit for my ceiling fan that will accept a medium base bulb. They have to be candelabras now. You know why? Some energy bill passed in 2005. I can't use my swirly fluorescent in my ceiling fan because the government thinks it knows better about how I should manage my life and light up my house.

People can make a difference without calling on the strong arm of the federal government for every little thing. You want to live with certain rules and regulations, then your local and state governments are where that needs to take place. The role of the federal government is to provide for the common defense of the nation, enforce the Constitution, and engage in treaties with foreign nations (although I think that one ought to be curtailed quite a bit). Other than that, it's the role of the state governments to create an environment that supports the desires of the citizens of that state.

Yeah, I got a bug about the federal government. It has expanded and abused the power given to it. I don't think that everyone should have to live by my standards. I think we should all enjoy the privilege of living in communities of like-minded people, and that we should be allowed to influence and legislate for our respective communities. I guess though that that's my idea of utopia, and it's no more realistic than a socialistic ideal of society. As I said in a previous post, it may not be what I want, but that's reality. It stinks, but all you can do is pull up your bootstraps and deal with it.

{{stepping off my soapbox now...}}

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

.
As sad as it is there has to be this Big Goverment intervention or we are all screwed.
.
.

.
Better Be Some Provisions For Big Federal Prisons.
.

Seems there is enough blame to go around, all around.
I fear that a "bail out" will only keep the boat afloat a while longer, but not keep it from sinking. It will just sink slower.
If the government steps in to create an artificial bottom to the mortgage securities market, the real market may take longer to get to the real bottom and just make the problem last longer and maybe deeper than a natural free market cycle.

In the free market, supply and demand has a strange way of evening things out. Even in a socialist country, supply and demand works, just slower. Ever hear of the empty shelves in stores in Russia during the cold war? Bread was cheap, but there was no bread. Farmers had no incentive to produce more if they did not get more money.

If there is real value in the mortgage securities... where are the investors like Buffet, that snap up under valued stocks and commodities and hold them to sell at a profit once their real value is appreciated?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see a depression or recession but I also don't want to see the government screw up a natural market correction with a well intentioned but wrong move.
This problem has been years in the making and it will take more than just a few days and throwing money at it to fix it.
Don't worry, We are the government and we are hear to help...

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Ted,

Don't worry about her too much, she gets off on charging $50 for a worthless test, acknowledging that she only does it because the state allows it.

Her response will likely be that the state demands it, but, in what she has posted before, she could (*COULD* if she wanted to) DO THE RIGHT THING and provide a proper septic inspection ... but she and her husband *chose* not to do so.

So, instead of having a truck pump the tank out and do it the right way for several hundred dollars, they walk around and proclaim it is all okie dokie, gimme you 50 bucks.

After all, she will likely respond, ... if she did not do it ... someone else would.

But I already addressed that in a post on another thread.

Aww Jerry, you're being deliberately misleading here. I don't charge for a worthless test, I charge to provide a certification that the state demands when buying a house so that you can close on the loan and turn your water on. What would be wrong would be if I mislead my clients into thinking that this certification is anything more than what it is - namely a visual inspection that says the system is performing as designed at the time of inspection and that it's good for thirty days. If they want an in depth septic inspection, they can call Roto Rooter. It's the same thing as inspecting the A/C of a house. I look at the HVAC system, I operate the thermostat, I do everything I can short of going into the unit. I'm not a qualified HVAC technician. Should I not inspect the central unit because I can't take it apart and check each component? Should I just bypass that part of the house and knock off $50 from my inspection? No. I report on what I SEE. That's what that certification is. I report on what I SEE. It's no more than that, and the clients understand that and that it's a state requirement.

Somehow I get the feeling you like to stir the pot just to see what floats to the top. I'm not going to let you get my goat...

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

I still don't understand why you want the government to pay off all existing mortgages.

Because, if that is not done, the money will go directly to the bankers, bypassing the people.

You would prefer that?

Originally Posted by Hanne Moon

Aww Jerry, you're being deliberately misleading here. I don't charge for a worthless test, I charge to provide a certification that the state demands when buying a house so that you can close on the loan and turn your water on.

Are you saying that the state DEMANDS you only "walk around", and that you are NOT ALLOWED to do anything else?

I referred to the fact that the test, which is not really a test, as you are not testing anything, was required by the state, I understand that part.

The part about actually providing something for the money (other than that piece of paper) is the part we differ on.

Somehow I get the feeling you like to stir the pot just to see what floats to the top. I'm not going to let you get my goat...

No, but now that you mention it, we know what would float to the top if you ever removed a cover and stirred that soup.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Because, if that is not done, the money will go directly to the bankers, bypassing the people.

You would prefer that?

Of course not and that's not the plan. The plan sucks BTW

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Of course not and that's not the plan.

But that will be the outcome.

The plan sucks BTW

Yeah, I think we all agree on that.

How about this:

We've addressed paying off all mortgages, and only spent $11 Trillion.

That leaves us with $689 TRILLION to deal with other things.

I've heard numbers that fully covered medical would cost $600 Billion, let's pre-fund that for 10 years, that's another $6 Trillion.

Which leaves $683 TRILLION.

Let's pay off ALL college loans and make ALL colleges free. Having NO IDEA what that number is, let's say it matches the mortgage money - another $11 Trillion.

That leaves $672 TRILLION.

What else do you want to throw in there? We have only used $27 Trillion and look what we have paid for.

Come on, guys, what can be added into there, we still have $672 TRILLION at our disposal.

Let's see what we could pay for.

Tell you what, let's pre-fund that health care for 100 years, goes from $6 Trillion to $60 Trillion.

We still have $672 + $6 = $678 - $60 = $618 TRILLION.

Let's put the autoworkers back to work, give each of those 50 million 'family units' I calculated for the mortgages (which came out close to the estimated $11 Trillion in mortgages, thank you very much) a new car. Putting people back to work making cars, selling cars, servicing cars, etc., say at $20,000 per car.

50,000,000 x $20,000 = 50,000,000,000 x 20 = 5,000,000,000,000 x 2 = 10,000,000,000,000 ($10 Trillion)

Okay, we STILL have $608 TRILLION to work with.

MY Gawd! Look what we have paid for and we have NOT YET EVEN SPENT $100 Trillion.

What on earth are they going to spend that $700 Trillion on???

Let's take another $11 Trillion and buy/build each of those 'family units' another house, that will jump start construction and real estate.

We STILL HAVE $597 TRILLION!

My GAWD! How can we spend that much money?

Let's take those 4 person 'family units' (based on national averages, mind you, for national average calculations as I am doing here) and give them some money - how much would they get?

50,000,000 4 person 'family units' x $10,000,000 = 500,000,000,000,000

(losing track of my zeros here, so I will do it differently as a cross check)

500,000,000,000,000 dollars
50,000,000 four people family units

50,000,000 = $10,000,000 for each four person family unit
5

Am I doing that right? 50 million four person family units would need to get $10 million dollars each to equal $500 TRILLION?

AND THAT STILL LEAVES $87 TRILLION!

Surely I *MUST* be doing something wrong and mis-placing a bunch of zeros???? Someone PLEASE show me where I'm losing track of all those zeros.

I just read this in a news letter from a local title company no less. Seems to be spot on.

WHAT GOES UP MUST COME DOWN
If one still doesn’t recognize housing as the principal engine driving the U.S. economy they have fallen asleep under a rock somewhere. For over a decade it was the driving force propelling the U.S. economy higher and higher. Now its backwash is propelling the U.S. economy downward. As is the tendency, when you’re on a roll it is tempting to bend the rules to keep things rolling. The housing market is the latest illustration of this mortal weakness. While most taxpayers did not contribute to the present current economic crisis, most have benefited from the events leading up to the current situation. While some were in the middle of the fray, most benefited from the sidelines.

• Lenders bent reasonable and time proven underwriting rules to reach an untapped market (under-qualified borrowers).
• Originators turned their heads to blatant signals that the borrowers could not carry their mortgages.
• Borrowers willingly misstated facts in order to qualify for larger mortgage loans to buy more expensive homes.
• Bond rating services neglected to ask critical Quality Assurance questions of their mortgage banking clients.
• Instutional investors elected not to adequately scrutinize the portfolios they invested in, especially when offered exceptional yields.
• Agents shopped the market for sources that could deliver these loans to their buyers.
• Escrow, closing and title services conveniently accommodated these transactions.
• Sellers’ only concern was closing the sale for the highest dollar.
• Builders/Developers kept building so long as there was demand.
• Construction trades enjoyed full employment in most markets.
• Home furnishing suppliers rode the crest of new construction and redecorating.
• Taxing authorities enjoyed the benefits of expanding tax bases and property valuations.
• Foreign dollars rushed to invest in the attractive U.S. security markets.
• In fact, the entire global economic community enjoyed the ride.

Now that it has come to an abrupt and unsavory end everyone wants a soft landing and is lining up for the Great American Giveaway…and it appears they might get it. Someone recently said it is Free Enterprise on the way up and Socialism on the way down. Does it really have to be this way?

"Does it really have to be this way?"

No.

It could be like I heard on the radio yesterday.

There was The Great War.

Then there was another "Great War", so the first "Great War" was called World War I and the second "Great War" was called World War II.

There was The Great Depression.

Let's keep that as "The Great Depression". No need to rename that to " The Great Depression I " ...

Thus, we need a "soft landing". Ted Explained it well in his explanation - you do not want to be in that car going 80 mph when you hit that brick wall ... not even in a newer car with crumple zones and air bags, you want to be able to coast or brake to a stop or at least a slower speed before getting to The Brick Wall.

Like falling off a building, it is not the fall that hurts, no sir, it is The Landing.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

But that will be the outcome.



Yeah, I think we all agree on that.

How about this:

We've addressed paying off all mortgages, and only spent $11 Trillion.

That leaves us with $689 TRILLION to deal with other things.

Small problem Jerry.

The proposed "bailout bill is:
$700 Billion 700,000,000,000
NOT
$700 Trillion 700,000,000,000,000

Houston we have zero problem.

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Small problem Jerry.

The proposed "bailout bill is:
$700 Billion 700,000,000,000
NOT
$700 Trillion 700,000,000,000,000

Houston we have zero problem.

Michael,

I came back here to report that same problem. Somehow I picked up "Trillion" from someone here (don't know who and don't care, *I* kept going with it).

I went out to the auto parts store and on the radio they were talking about the "Billion" dollar buyout and I went "THERE IS THE PROBLEM - *B*illion, not *T*rillion."

Dropping off those three zeros makes for a REAL BIG difference.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Michael,

I came back here to report that same problem. Somehow I picked up "Trillion" from someone here (don't know who and don't care, *I* kept going with it).

I went out to the auto parts store and on the radio they were talking about the "Billion" dollar buyout and I went "THERE IS THE PROBLEM - *B*illion, not *T*rillion."

Dropping off those three zeros makes for a REAL BIG difference.

Like I said before. Just a homeless guy that found a laptop with an air card and a pile of books

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Like I said before. Just a homeless guy that found a laptop with an air card and a pile of books

An' eyes wood red dat big ol' fat one 'bout dat whale, but it's hard ta read sittin' on it an' usin' it fer a cushion.

It is the great treasury robbery of 2008. First, the world was going to end if they did not get all of the money by Friday. We are still here. Then it was going to end if they didn't get it by Sunday night before the Hong Kong markets opened. They aren't getting it then either - it won't get through congress until at least Tuesday or Wednesday - if at all. I hope not at all. In its current proposal, it would only be half - 350 Billion - now and more later. This whole thing sounds more like a Billy Mays commercial - "But wait, if you call right now ...."
By the way, what is name of the numerical denomination that comes after trillion??

Originally Posted by Richard Stanley

By the way, what is name of the numerical denomination that comes after trillion??

Quadrillion, I believe.

Just found this after my other post, it takes it on out even further.

Million, Billion, Trillion...

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Just found this after my other post, it takes it on out even further.

Million, Billion, Trillion...

Cool.

There are 133 Octillion atoms on planet earth.

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Cool.

There are 133 Octillion atoms on planet earth.

Before or after they split atoms?