Guy,s
I'm looking for some advise. The Realtor Board in my area has asked me to help in putting together a committee to establish some level of standards for renovation and rehabilitation of older homes, since we have such an overstock of older neglected homes. Their contention is buyers are avoiding these because any improvements or repairs they would make would be subject to a code inspection by the AHJ which scares the hell out of people and puts the cost out of reach. The municipal inspectors power kick atatudes make it just not worth the effort and pose an even bigger risk.
The idea is to come up with some criteria where we could avoid having to bring the repairs or improvements up to today's codes, but also protect buyers and homeowners trying to improve their home for sale from Homer or Bubba jobs and still be safe and not adversely affecting other functions of the structure or systems.
I've heard talk here of some states already implementing something of this nature, but could not find the thread it was on.
My interest in this is not business related. I'm not trying to brown nose a bunch of realtors. This simply falls into the reasons I entered this business in the first place, to help people less fortunate than me, with the knowledge I've aquired, not make mistakes that will cost them dearly either monitarily or safetywise with their homes.
If anyone has some experience in this area, and would like to share it I'd appreciate it. Maybe you know some hurdles we will run into and how to avoid them, or maybe even have a laid down set of standards already.
Thank You All for your attention

Jim Weyenberg
HouseMaster Inc.
Senior Inspector
2006 HouseMaster Inspector of the Year
jimweyenberg@new.rr.com
920-309-3410

First off what is your location? This might help others to help you. Just update your profile so it shows when you post.

If you are going to design any standard you will need to base it on what would be required for your area. I would start with the IRC as the basic standard. I would not be crafting new standards, this could end up being a major liability issue. Keep in mind the the IRC codes are the minimal standard. Many items/systems in a home might just require a permit and inspections for them to be repaired or replaced.

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Scott Patterson
Spring Hill, TN
http://www.traceinspections.com

Why would you want to encourage people to make changes to homes without meeting building code? Granted older homes only have to meet the codes for when they were built...unless their is a major renovation and then the system be renovated must be brought up to current code.

I agree that anything you publish that indicates it is ok not to meet code, will put you on the liability hook. The reason codes have changed is to make homes safer. By ignoring code, you are building in unsafe features.

Buyers want a safe house. If they are comparing two houses, House A "rehabbed with an occasional nod towards code, or House B "rehabbed and brought up to meet current code". Which house do you think they are more likely to buy? Which house will they pay a premium for?

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Bruce Ramsey
Advocate Inspections
www.NCAdvocate.com

That would be excellent, then, too, the properties would be worth more, sell better, and bring in higher commissions, so while that is all and good, it is not for the good of all.

As that work should be.

That's where to start your help. Explain the situation to the AHJ and state that you and the real estate community IS TRYING TO GET THIS DONE BY CODE, but that you need their help in changing the working attitudes of the inspector who are employees of the people they are inspecting for, and, do this in conjunction with the local commissioners for a second meeting if the AHJ is closed to changing their attitudes.

Or, maybe, just maybe, the AHJ attitudes are created by all the people trying to do the work without permits ... like you are suggesting?

Yes, repairs on older homes are not cheap, and doing those repairs *without a permit* even less cheap - because of all the risk and liability being taken on, and *I* for one would not want to be part of a planned and concerted effort to subvert the codes - and *all the liability THAT would bring on to you*.

Okie dokie, this is where you stump me ... trying to subvert the codes ... ????

Ummmmmm ... that's what codes are for.

Which is just the opposite of what you are proposing to do by not pulling permits and not having inspections.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Did anyone notice in the signature .... "2006 HouseMaster Inspector of the Year"?

I hope the above inquiry *is not* representative of the thinking of Housemaster Senior Inspectors, much less any other HouseMaster Inspector of the Year inspectors.

Holy cow! (If it is.)

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Jim, I think I understand what you are trying to do, but you may be overstating your intentions by using the words chosen (or maybe not, you decide)
This would imply that you are going to reinvent the wheel by coming up with you own code and standards that people could meet and avoid the local AHJ.
I think the real purpose (correct me if I am wrong) would be to summarize the laws (codes) that are in place and where the line would be drawn on having to get city inspections and be out bunches of money for repairs.
For example, paint, floor covering and new light fixtures would not trigger the need for a permit and inspections. Moving walls, rewiring, etc. would cross the line in most areas.
If a summary of the rules is what you have in mind, I would still be disclaiming out the wazoo lest someone come after the author(s) of the summary when the summary turns out to be wrong.

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Jim Luttrall
Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
Allen, Texas 75002

In some places, even re-painting is required to have a permit.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Scott & Bruce
Thank you for the replies. I'm in NE WI. just south of Green Bay. I don't think the intent here is to circumvent the codes but to be realistic in applying them. An old house is just that and old house. If a guy wants to do some upgrades to his older house and is somewhat handy, can we supply him with the guidance to do the majority of it himself as long as it is not involving major plumbing or structural changes that would require a professional. To often these first time home buyers or couples just stepping up from their first home have all kinds of enthusiasm to improve the home though lack the money or the necessary knowledge to do it all themselves but want to learn by doing. Can we draw a line somewhere and say yes it's your house you can do what you want but if it goes to this point and involves this or that consult and professional. I don't see it as writing a new standard or code but more like guidelines to say go this far, get a plumber, go here get an electrician and so on. Can you see where I'm trying to go here. The codes and standards are what we as HI's live by, but in older homes can we cut people some slack as long as what they do is safe and poses no detrimental long term effects and at least abides by the standards of the era the house was built in. We are just setting this group up, we have a couple developers, municipal inspectors, trade professionals and the representatives of 2 of the areas Builders associations and of coarse a couple realtors. The first formal meeting will be next week. I'll try to keep the forum posted.
Thank You
Jim Weyenberg

I just don't see how it can be done. I inspect many 100+ year old homes every year and they are all different. I would say that the most common issues would be Electrical and Plumbing, both of those would require a professional and in many cases permits. Getting around a permit will depend totally on the area you are working in.

Last, I would run all of this through legal council.

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Scott Patterson
Spring Hill, TN
http://www.traceinspections.com

What I have seen is that the AHJ will often allow a certain percentage of the structure to be rehabbed before having to meet current codes. Say 40% or more of the existing structure would need to be gutted out before current code would have to be met.
Other areas I have seen use a dollar amount, usually also ties in with appraised value of the structure before and after the rehab. I've also seen the AHJ question the intent of the rehab. If the rehabber intends to occupy the structure for a certain time period they go pretty lenient on enforcing new standards. If this is a house flipping project the developer must meet current code at about 20% or so of the appraisal before the project. I've also seen Historic District type organizations have a big say in what can be done & how. The one I've dealt with won't allow anything less than current code and go above code on a ton of stuff. Needless to say this instance ain't cheap.

Only if left as an 'old house'.

Once new work gets done *IT IS REQUIRED* to be done to code, with permits.

Trying to do otherwise *IS* trying to subvert the codes. You may try to call it something else, but that *IS* what it is.

Jim, you are not getting the point. This is not about 'how handy someone is', it is about 'all new work must be done in accordance with the applicable building codes, and that includes permits and inspections.

but ... but ... but it must STILL be done in accordance withe codes, which, as I've said before, includes permits and inspections. Which is what you seem to be trying to avoid.

No, Jim, the new work in the old house MUST meet codes. All EXISTING 'old stuff' can be left, which does not mean it is 'safe', but it can be left as it was permitted and constructed, assuming it was permitted when constructed.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Alton,

What you are referring to is having, or not having, to bring the entire structure up to current code.

Regardless, though, *all new work* must be permitted, done according to code, and inspected as required by code.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

Again thank you all for your input, and your right, kind of a poor choice of words there. I think more like guidelines is the idea here. I don't think I was very clear on the extent of the idea. Being there are municipal inspectors in the group as well as trade professionals the codes will be protected and the public protected, I think some of you are taking this a little father than the intention. But that's mostly my fault for not being more clear on the intent at the start.
I think it's as Jerry said getting to the AHJ's would be step one. Just getting them to listen to somebody else is huge, I am totally amazed that two of them are signed on to this exploratory committee. Getting them or most of them to be just a little less domineering and godlike would be the biggest step. I don't see the intent here to rewrite the code or circumvent it in any way at all but to be reasonable on older homes. Jim I think you put it best, I think what we would be looking for is a Summary of the the laws, rules and codes, maybe with an explanation of the intent of them and maybe just maybe help or direction from the AHJ's instead of snoby abusive remarks and threats. Pretty tall task but with the diversity of interest already signed on, AHJs, Realtor Association, Builders Associations, Tradesmen and a lowly HI, obviously there is wide concern in this area. Who knows maybe it won't go anywhere maybe it's just baby steps and this is the first one. We'll see. Thank You Again for your input.

Jim W.,

I think it's pretty simple... if it requires a repair, that usually does not trigger a permit requirement and a subsequent code compliant inspection.

However, if you REMOVE/REPLACE a structural component or system (plumbing, electrical, hvac, etc...), that *SHOULD* be a dead give-away that the structural component or system should be permitted and inspected by a code official in-order to protect the homeowner and the general public from; a) a potential hazardous condition or b) a potential safety concern and c) just what you have described, the "bubba-job".

Now, before this is taken as gospel. I urge you to not convey this to the good folks in cheese country or anywhere else until you have had a chance to get the AHJ's recommendations and prevailaing thoughts on the subject.

Code is minimum. When in doubt, do it the safe way and run it through the AHJ...

Richard (never been inspector-of-the-year) Rushing

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"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

Scott,
I'm with you on that, I don't know how it could be done either, but I want in. There obviously is concern in this area from some pretty high sources or it would not have come even this far. Like I said this an exploratory committee and it may not go anywhere, but if it does I want to be there if for anything to make sure the realtors aren't taking advantage of someone. And I don't see anything involving the legalities here but will take your advice if it get's to that point.

Alton, It sounds like you have something already worked out addressing this in your area. And some accommodating AHJ's. The percentage and the dollar amount things are go points. Thank You. As far as historical goes we're talking well under that range. In my area your only subject to the (histarical) society if the property is on the historical register. But good point. Thanks

Jerry, As usual you are right, but taking it beyond the intent as explained to me but I guess I did not convey that very well to you all. First we would be talking about 100K to maybe 150K homes here. With maybe S-traps at the sink drains, or maybe the sink or tub was moved and the vent cut off and those soft rubber hoses with clamps put on the drain piping, or the back door opening out because the halls to small for it to open in, or the heat to the upper level is a hole in the first floor ceiling. Yes point these things out but let's not force the folks to change it or we'll condemn it. If it's a flip, no dice, do it right or not at all. I am totally with you on that.
Again Thank You for the interest Got to Go! Work tomorrow for some of us.
Jim Weyenberg

Unfortunately, you are correct to a point "that usually does not trigger a permit", however, the (bold and italics are mine) "requirement and a subsequent code compliant inspection" are still there.

From the 2006 IRC (and it is this way in most codes). (bold and underlining are mine)

- R105.1 Required.

- R105.2 Work exempt from permit.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )