Thread: Inspection exercise

Ok, you find a Bradford White 40 gal./ 40Mbtu NG water heater common vented with a Weil McLain Gold 70Mbtu NG boiler into a masonry chimney. This is typical of what I see every day around Philly. Should look avg. to John, Joseph, and Nick as they are local H.I.s

First, comment on what you see. Then, tell me what you see that would suggest you dig a little deeper or is there anything else a home inspector should be concerned with based on what you see and have been given. Are you checking anything else or is everything you need for your report given to you here? I'll run with this for one day, then discuss Sat. nite.

Enjoy!

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Just at a quick glance I see four things that are red flags immediately in my eyes.

Has the chimney flue been relined?

In these parts, the bonding jumper doesn't get attached to the gas line.

No backflow preventer.

Neal,

Interesting comment. According to my 1999 NEC

245-104 (b)
Metal Gas Piping. Each aboveground portion of a gas piping system upstream from the equipment shutoff valve shall be electrically continuous and bonded to the grounding electrode system.

Looks to me like gas should be bonded. Around here, the bonding clamp is typically placed adjacent to the meter, but I will occasionally find it at the water heater.

Interestingly enough, the 1999 NEC also suggests (not requires) bonding all piping and metal ducts.

(The diagrams are not mine. I probably snitched them from someone on this board.)

Breach for boiler too low? Insufficient slope on vent pipe?
No bond to hot water pipe at water heater.
Should have straight sections for at least 12 inches on top of draft hoods.
Insufficient support for vent pipes.
Not sure about that damper on horizontal section of boiler vent pipe.

I imagine there's about 26 other things, but hey, I'm not proud.

John,

I had the same thought about the auto vent damper. According to Honeywell, their automatic vent damper can be installed horizintally, as long as the motor is on the sides, not the botttom or top.

Shut off valve on the hot side of the water heater makes me nervous. I guess turning off the valves on both sides with the heater on and a new load of cold water could be a way to test the TPR valve.

What is that badly-rusted tank (the one with the blue-handled gate valve to it) above the water tank?

The location for what I presume is the dryer receptacle outlet is creative. I do not like the way the cord is hanging out in space or that gravity is trying to pull it out. At least the receptacle outlet for the washing machine is closer to the wall.

- BOB

Originally Posted by Bob Mayer

What is that badly-rusted tank (the one with the blue-handled gate valve to it) above the water tank?

Bob - Thats the expansion tank for the heating system.

Hey just saw the bleeder valve for the exterior faucet right next to 220 for dryer. That would be a shocking winterization project!

These new construction quizzes are tough!

• Water heater on floor
• Less that 12 inches before bend in flue
• Supports missing from both flues
• Incorrect bonding
• Corrosion on top water cutoff (blue handle)
• Appears to be dryer vent pipe coming off boiler for the horizontal run. (I don’t do boilers.) It’s also a 90* turn. Can you do that if it's not high efficiency?
• Appears longer than six feet cord on dryer and washer.
• Can’t see how dryer vents, but it looks like they intend to vent it into the flue with the chimney and boiler.
• I’d want to look inside the chimney to see how those appliances are exhausted.
• Looks like a cross connection between the boiler and potable water and between expansion tank and potable water.
• No backflow prevention seen.
• Looks like some leeching going on at the concrete walls.
• I’d want a closer look at the discoloration on the beam above the concrete.

The size of the original flue pipe openings at the bottom of the chimney (now mortared) appear to be about twice the size of the flue pipes currently in place for the boiler and water heater. Any evidence of improper drafting on these Bob?

John,

Can you post code section for the 12 inch above draft hood requirement?


Thanks


Darren
New Jersey Home Inspection - About the House!

See there? A lot of really good discussion. Made you get your thinking caps on. However, if you re-read my original post, I asked if there was anything ELSE you should be concerned about. Neal, Thom, and Nick picked up on which tree I was barking up. Take a look at these pics. The size shot is just to help you see what all is going on in the room.

However, when you open the cleanout, which is the pipe below the boiler breeching, you get pic #4. What does this tell you? It tells you to look at pic#6, which is the point of this exercise. It is too easy to get tunnel vision and note the trees instead of the forest. I know the ASHI, NACHI, and NAHI Standards of Practice exclude inspecting chimney flues. My point to you is this:

If you don't at least take a peek, you're likely to miss something like pic#6. At least pull the cleanout and using a mirror, verify you see daylight or the need to call a sweep. BTW, the codes are moving to require HVAC techs to inspect the breeching with a mirror and flashlight. If they note ANY defects or problems, they must notify the homeowner IN WRITING!

Guys, if this is my daughter's new house and you failed to note the signs of a flue problem and potential for blockage, I can guarantee you I will be suing you. Sure, your Standards may eventually get you off but not before it costs you time, money, and a whole lot of aggravation. I wouldn't bank on your Standards as a Get out of Jail Free card.

Look at the signs:
-old house
-new boiler
-high efficiency boiler
-WH orphanned in summer
-cold exterior masonry chimney
-inadequate vent connector rise
-single walled vent connectors
-lack of listed chimney liner
-clothes dryer next to heaters
-numerous cement patch jobs around the breech pipes and clean out indicating numerous times replacing things such as rotted out pipes or cleaning out flue tile remains
-boiler is turned off due to spill switch tripping. See the indicator bar on the vent damper horizontal? That means it is open. the power was switched off, which caused it to default open. Why did this switch trip? Doing its job!
-elbow off the WH draft hood without 12" rise means it is more prone to spillage. If exhaust spills, then what little does vent will condense like crazy and eat up a chimney.

They called me for a chief complaint of "water leaks" in the wall upstairs. While inspecting it, they asked me who could fix their boiler because that switch thingy kept tripping. Yes, they had been getting headaches and yes, the new liner goes in Tues.

• And there were no carbon monoxide detectors?
• And there fire and smoke detectors only in the hall and they were battery operated?
• And bedroom windows were painted shut?

"However, when you open the clean out, which is the pipe below the boiler breeching..."

Bob,

And when I can't get the opening re-sealed... ?

You are in the business of inspecting chimneys and flues, and are qualified and equipped to re-seal what you open.

I'm not.

I'm certainly going to try to get a look from the top and bottom if I can do so safely and without risk of disturbing what I cannot return to its original condition (for example when there is an operable clean-out door), but I'm also not going attempt access to a breaching which may fall apart in the process, obliging me to pay the cost of *your* coming out and correcting a condition I'm neither qualified or equipped to repair, as a result of an inspection procedure that exceeds most SOPs.

Similarly, I'm not the HVAC tech, and I'm not qualified to perform the inspection and analysis required to determine that that the spill switch is tripping, and why.

As for your statement that in this situation you would sue the HI, knowing that you did not have a case and just to cost then time, money and aggravation...

Now, if you want to argue that I ought to defer the venting based on a visual observation of its arrangement and exterior condition, or the boiler based on it's cutting out during operation an/or visual evidence of spillage at the vent hood, I would agree with you.

But IMO it's not my job - because I'm not qualified or equipped to do so - to start disassembling branchings or trouble-shooting boilers.

Michael, I believe the cleanout pipe beneath the boiler breach in Bob's pics has a removeable cap which generally can be removed and replaced with a minimum of effort. Some times a screw or two to remove but most of the caps are just jammed into the cleanout pipe. The cleanout pipe is not actually removed from the wall.

These caps are often removed easier and faster than deadfront covers on most service panels but that doesn't stop us from inspecting service panel interiors. The only time I do not remove cleanout caps is if they refuse to budge, if they are severly corroded, or if half the chimney is sitting in a pile of dust behind that cap and waiting to be set free onto the floor.

The house I looked at yesterday (next door to Bob in Clifton Heights) had a terra cotta flue liner that looked great when viewed from the top of the chimney looking down, no evidence of spalling or deterioration. But when I pulled the cap in the basement, I saw this.......

Michael, many of the home inspectors I have trained expressed similar thoughts as you. This is one of the most critical elements of a home inspection because it can make the difference btw a live referral versus a court case.

Nobody is asking you to use extraordinary means to inspect the flue. If there is a cleanout and the cap is easily removed without risk of structural damage or rotted out pipes falling out, then you should open it and inspect inside. If the pipes look so corroded you are afraid it will fall apart in your hands, isn't that a Red Flag to recommend a Level II inspection? If you fail to recognize these warning signs, which btw, are readily apparent without special tools or equipment but just visual observations, then you will fail to warn your client. This breach of duty to warn will eat you up in court as there is nowhere to hide, including some paltry industy Standards of Practice. Any good attorney will blast right past them by simple points:
You see this stuff for a living
You see the consequences of improper installation and maintenance daily
You fail to warm this is probably a problem, too.

If I am inspecting a chimney and spot something that is an immediate hazard but fail to warm my client, I could be liable. While I'm inspecting the chimney, what if I see signs of a backdraft at the draft hood in my pics but failed to energize the vent damper to see if it opens or is stuck? I reline the chimney and riush to the bank. Does it work? Hey, I was there for the chimney--not what's connected, right? Wrong! I am a trained observer. I point out the need for a qualified HVAC technician to do a full followup service including combustion analysis. With a new liner, the performance of the appliance may change so the equipment may need to be tweaked.


What drove Nick O. to inspect the base of that chimney? Was it simply an observation from above? He said it appeared unremarkable from above. Was it something else? How about his experience with those row homes in Clifton, the equipment usually installed there and the level of maintenace by those homeowners? In medicine, we called this having a high i"ndex of suspicion". Basically, you smell a rat. Nick wasn't satisfied with what he saw up top so using just his hands or ordinary tools such as a screwdriver or nut driver, he opened the cleanout, which btw, is provided by code for this very purpose, and found remains of what used to be an intact flue. He did his duty by warning the client of probable damage and the knowledge this chimney probably cannot perform its intended function anymore. He's done.


Guys, click on the banner for Dale Feb's FIRE Service courses to learn more. Just how liable is a home inspector, what are the boundaries and what can you do to minimize your risk and not put your clients in peril. You can raise your profits, too.

Good catch Nick!

If it's "just a cap", and the pipe is in good condition, and it appears to be solidly attached to the chimney, yes - I'll remove it. However... I have encountered situations where this appeared to be the case, and the pipe - corroded within the chimney - broke off at the junction with the wall. Sure, it "failed under test" - or at least "observation". And of course a HI does the the occupants of the house a favor by discovering such hazardous conditions.

The seller, however, may feel differently.

I take this stuff seriously.

I have a form I've made up for such occasions, with "NOTICE OF HAZARDOUS CONDITION" in 24pt bold red lettering at the top, for "Seller or Seller's Agent", describing the defect and recommending that occupants be immediately notified of such conditions.

And yes, both those conditions ought to call for further evaluation, and especially in the case of chimneys and flues I''m much more ready than many in my area to call for a level II - and I've taken a lot of flack over that, most recently in a thread on the old IN.

But in the end, I'm not a HVAC tech or a F.I.R.E certified sweep - and what Dale's class taught me, mostly, is that there is *a lot* I don't know.

And if Bob Harper or Dale Feb puts together a good video version of something like the week-long F.I.R.E class, I'll be first in line to buy it.

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

I point out the need for a qualified HVAC technician to do a full followup service including combustion analysis. With a new liner, the performance of the appliance may change so the equipment may need to be tweaked.

What is the sad part of this statement Bob is that the majority of HVAC guys don't know how to even get started on a call like this.

I can say this as I am one.

Most guys would reset the rollout & recommend a POS UL 2034 rated death alarm.

Hey David, we're ALL just getting started with this stuff. You are one of the most enlightened HVAC techs I've met (at least online). We share a passion to raise the collective bar and show everyone from homeowners to techs to inspectors of all sorts the many hazards and things that can go 'bump" in the night. I used to recommend unguided duct sealing. Now I realize the cause and effect relationship it can have on combustion efficiency, Delta T, general performance, etc. Another example was the revelation that jacking a boiler or water heater up on blocks may actually lead to CO product as it disrupts the "normal" expected airflows into the combustion chamber. I think the key is education aimed at recognizing conditions that could represent a problem (First Echelon) when to refer it up to a specialist (Second Echelon) and the eventual diagnosis, corrections & adjustments followed by performance verification testing and a program for long term maintenance and follow up care. This is analagous to medicine where your family Doc thinks you have a problem, orders basic testing that confirms the need for a referral to a specialist (cardiologist, neuro, etc.) who then takes it to resolution.

Michael, I hear ya' man. However, breaking off vent connectors can happen just as water line stop valves can break off or leak once you cycle them or a number of similar land mines just waiting for you. My explanation to the homeowner is that had it been in good repair, it would not have fallen apart. I've never had one blame me for it and were just glad I found the gremlin hiding in their chimney before he got loose.

David/ Michael, as a member of the FIRE Service Educational Development Cmte.,I am working on a program through Dale"s FIIRE Service for just this sort of thing. Don't want to let the cat out of the bag but this will be a comprehensive program with hands-on instruction teaching systematic response to incidents as well as routine inspection and service procedures, testing, documentation and followup. We hope to have this ready for rollout in a few weeks. I'm sure Dale will want to make a formal launch when the program is ready. This should provide some badly needed instruction to several allied industries in one program. Stay tuned!

BTW David, ever thought about moving to Philly? Just checking.....

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

BTW David, ever thought about moving to Philly? Just checking.....

Thanks for the kind words Bob if you ever need anybody who is just as pumped & dedicated as I am about CO testing in the Philly area I have a good friend in Paoli who does the same things we do.

Hard to believe but I have had a couple of offers to move to Ohio & as far as California, it is very humbling to be held in regards like that.

Hopefully as my children grow up i will be able to travel more & help spread the word on this & help those interested.

I hear you as well on recommending horse shoe & hand grenade duct sealing I used to be the worst when first getting into building envelope diagnostics.

"Tight ducts are right ducts"
Isn't that what they always say?

So Bob, what should our findings be for your example?

Well Michael, I cannot give you the exact words as each of your must develop your own. However, let's walk through this together then maybe the words will come to you:

Re-read my list of signs I posted back on the 20th. Based upon this information, I would hope ANY home inspector, HVAC Tech, etc. who is standing in that basement would at least try to open the clean out/ inspection port (since that's what its there for) and look in. When you see what's inside, you don't have to go any further. Already you have established the risk factors, which we noted as signs. Then you confirm suspicions by inspecting the inspection/ cleanout port which indeed reveals damage and a high potential for blockage. Here's where paths diverge: The HVAC tech or chimney contractor would then be obligated to conduct a Level II inspection before any continued use of this equipment. You, the home inspector, would merely need to note it in your report the presence of actual damage existing along with the hazard of a blocked flue, which could result in personal injury, death, and premature failure of the equipment and vent piping. You have a duty to warn. You now know a hazard exists so you must communicate it. As part of that communication, the law insists you explain the risks. Will it simply make my pipes rust or kill me? What are the consequences of ignoring your warnings. It gets much deeper, which Dale's full course explains but here is a taste: Your warning terms must meet the degree risk of hazard and the corresponding consequences.

Caution! Something bad could happen. If it does, it may cause personal injury or damage to things

Warning! Something bad is likely to happen. When it does, it Will cause personal and/ or property injury or death

Danger! I guarantee something very bad is about to happen or is happening right now. It is immediately hazardous to your health and could cause severe injury or death along with substatial damage to property. Requires immediate action.

It isn't enough just to tell them they need to get an HVAC guy or chimney guy to look at it. Why? What if I don't ?

Remember, just like the family physician, you are trained to spot problems that need to be referred to a specialist for resolution. Your Doc tells you, "if you don't quit smoking and fail to see your cardiologist, you WILL die!" He doesn't say, "oh, you ought to go see somebody else for your problems".

Now, if you do decide to perform any kind of test, it must be appropriate for the hazard anticipated. Here we go:

DavidR: tell the group what you think about using a mirror or blown out match at a water heater draft hood to confirm adequate performance of the venting systyem. Let's get another professional opion on this, as David is an expert from what I've learned of him on other sites.

Sorry Bob, I posted that to the wrong thread... I was referring to the thread where you introduced a discussion of dampers around half way through the discussion... now I will have to go find it.

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

DavidR: tell the group what you think about using a mirror or blown out match at a water heater draft hood to confirm adequate performance of the venting systyem. Let's get another professional opion on this, as David is an expert from what I've learned of him on other sites.

Well I don't really consider myself an expert on the subject, lots of guys that can smoke me on the subject.
I appreciate the vote of confidence though.

Testing with smoke at the draft hood or verification of an open flue with a mirror pretty much tells you a couple of things, none which are of any value from a diagnostic standpoint.
Kind of like testing the space for CO, not a lot of information diagnostic wise but great for personal safety.

Shooting smoke at a draft hood tells you room air is going up the flue NOT that an appliance is venting.
What if the restriction is before the draft hood?
The only way to verify if an appliance is venting is through digital combustion analysis watching the CO & O2 numbers for stability & draft interference testing.

If the CO numbers continue to rise over the run cycle or the O2 levels fall any you have a potential timebomb.
If the draft falls due to any interaction with another air moving device in the home or other procedures like closing doors off it is a sign of a potential problem too.
This is one of the reasons many guys can't find intermittent CO problems, they don't know how to interpret the readings they are getting from the analyzer or how to interpret draft readings.

There are numerous procedures you can perform in addition to these I listed like CAZ pressure testing, dominant duct leakage testing & so on.

Bob ad David,

Currently, I test for spillage/poor draft with both a mirror and a smoke pen.

I know this is of *some* benefit to clients as even this limited test occasionally does detect instillations where there are problems. In addition, if the client is present, the smoke pen can be a quite dramatic demonstration of the problem. My report notes that venting performance depends on a number of factors, that this is not a definitive test, and that it only evaluates operation at the time of the inspection.

Based on the above, it appears that a more exhaustive evaluation requires equipment, experience and specialized training most HIs (myself included) do not possess - and that based on my own experience and the comments of others here, even many “HVAC techs” don’t possess.

One thing it appears a HI can do is be aggressive in their visual investigation – open the clean-out even if doing so look a bit dicey, carefully observe the entire accessible length of vent, observe the appliances for evidence of malfunction and so on.

But I’ve yet to find a good source of information on a systematic inspection protocol for gas furnaces and hot water heaters – nothing even equivalent to “Electrical Inspection of Existing Dwellings” - the closest I’ve found is the SPREI “Heating System Inspections”, which contains a lot of information but is poorly written and badly organized.

I’ve looked for training through the HI CE organizations and via HVAC wholesalers, but most of the industry provided training is geared toward new installations, not service of existing systems, and most of the HI CE I’ve taken (the two-days People’s Energy and the one day FIRE classes were welcome exceptions) are being taught by people who don’t know all that much more than I do.

So now, I sit here reading Bob Harper’s comments about some standards organization (?) which is apparently recommending installing barometric dampers – in a manner for which they are not listed, or at least for which they have not been tested by the manufactures - to resolve problems discovered by fairly advanced HVAC techniques, and Bob is apparently suggesting that as a HI I ought to be aware of these issues and …. do what ???

For myself, I’m still attempting to improve a my approach to visual inspections of the basics, and I *know* in this respect I’m further along than many HIs in my area.

So while I’m glad Bob, David are others here and bringing move “advanced” issues to my attention, at this point I’m not even satisfied that I’m doing (and the most HIs are doing) as good a job as I’d like of inspecting something as simple as a common vented gas furnace and water heater using the manufacture’s recommend venting methods.

I’d like to improve my HVAC inspection skills, but at this point I seem to be hitting dead ends.

Suggestions?

I think the biggest issue with double acting barometrics & draft hoods is that their real purposes are not fully understood.

Once their true purposes are known you guys would start to red flag every draft hood you laid eyes on.

Lets say for instance you test a draft hood on a water heater & the smoke goes up the draft hood really fast, lots of air going up the flue pipe here.

Now lets add a draft reading, the draft in this flue is at a -.05" water column really a lot of air moving up this flue right?

Now lets add some Carbon Monoxide & Oxygen readings taken before the draft hood in the undiluted flue gases with our combustion analyzer.

Here are the readings as tested over specific points in time.

After one minute of operation. CO - 0 PPM O2 - 8.5%

After five minutes of operation CO - 0 PPM O2 - 8.2%

After seven minutes CO - 0 PPM O2 - 7.4%

After 10 minutes CO -1 PPM O2 - 7.0%


Is this water heater operating safely?

What would you do if you encountered these readings in the field?

I know! I know! I know!


Ok, I'll sit down and behave. Just don't pay any attention to that man behind the 'curtain'. ;-)

Hey David, aside from this thread, would you start up a thread on the virtues of UL 2034 CO alarms [grin]
Thx man,
Bob

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

I know! I know! I know!


Ok, I'll sit down and behave. Just don't pay any attention to that man behind the 'curtain'. ;-)

Hey David, aside from this thread, would you start up a thread on the virtues of UL 2034 CO alarms [grin]
Thx man,
Bob

It would be my pleasure, I wrote an article about them a few months ago for the HVAC Insider that I might just use.