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Thread: Gas Flex

  1. #1
    allen elliott's Avatar
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    Default Gas Flex

    Is it a violation of the connectors listing on a flexible gas connector to enter the furnace cabinet? If so where can I find something in writing that states this other than on the connector itsef.

    Thanks

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by allen elliott View Post
    Is it a violation of the connectors listing on a flexible gas connector to enter the furnace cabinet? If so where can I find something in writing that states this other than on the connector itsef.

    Thanks
    Allen:

    http://www.texasinspector.com/Flexible%20Connector.pdf

    IRC G2422.1.2.1 (411.1.3.1) Maximum length. Connectors shall have an overall length not to exceed 3 feet (914 mm), except for range and domestic clothes dryer connectors, which shall not exceed 6 feet (1829 mm) in overall length. Measurement shall be made along the centerline of the connector. Only one connector shall be used for each appliance.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Same section but a little further is the pertinent verbiage:
    Connectors shall not be concealed within, or extended through, walls, floors, partitions, ceilings or appliance housings.
    Underlining is mine.

    Last edited by Jim Luttrall; 03-25-2009 at 12:06 PM.
    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    This is the IRC section Jim was referring to:

    (underlining is mine to replicate Jim's underlining)
    - G2422.1.2.3 (411.1.3.3) Prohibited locations and penetrations.Connectors shall not be concealed within, or extended through, walls, floors, partitions, ceilings or appliance housings.
    - - Exception: Fireplace inserts that are factory equipped with grommets, sleeves or other means of protection in accordance with the listing of the appliance.

    Note the wording of that Exception and remember some recent posts and threads on it, brings up a good secondary discussion.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by allen elliott View Post
    Is it a violation of the connectors listing on a flexible gas connector to enter the furnace cabinet? If so where can I find something in writing that states this other than on the connector itsef.

    Thanks
    Allen: Sorry, I was smoking crack early this morning and didn't read your questions correctly. These other guys handled it, as usual.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Mannnnn it is awesome to learn

    Thanks All!!


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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    ...Sorry, I was smoking crack early this morning....
    I hope you learned your lesson. I try to wait until noon to fire up the pipe, myself.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    I hope you learned your lesson. I try to wait until noon to fire up the pipe, myself.
    John: I'm working on it.


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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Aaron and John,

    Don't know how you guys do it ... I tried disconnecting one of those flexible gas pipe thingys, but when I lit it up ... danged near blowed my head off!

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron and John,

    Don't know how you guys do it ... I tried disconnecting one of those flexible gas pipe thingys, but when I lit it up ... danged near blowed my head off!
    JP: Must be that Flahdah swamp gas . . .


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Secured valve and a drip leg/sediment trap might be worth mentioning also.


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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Secured valve and a drip leg/sediment trap might be worth mentioning also.

    And could be present outside the photo.

    Not knowing where Allen is located (Allen, please click on 'User CP' below the Inspectionnews logo and enter your city and state, that helps with answers and with understanding what you might be seeing) their presence may be "almost always installed" to "never installed" to "yep, they are now starting to require their installation".

    Being as it is not in the photo (it would be higher than what is shown in the photo) we do not want to make assumptions of what might not be there.

    Allen would know from having been there - and, if a shut-off service valve and sediment trap are not present, then, yes, I would agree that would need more than just mentioning, it should be written up as missing.

    However, there could also be other things outside the photo worth mentioning too, but no way to know if they are present when they should not be, or not present when they should be.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    sediment trap

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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Allen,

    Don't let homeowners tell you also that their plumber told them that wrapping the flex line at the cabinet opening with electrical or duct tape is acceptable cushion either.

    Some will also take foam insulation and wedge it in the opening, not approved either.

    Play the game, write it up!

    rick


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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Secured valve and a drip leg/sediment trap might be worth mentioning also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    And could be present outside the photo.

    Not knowing where Allen is located (Allen, please click on 'User CP' below the Inspectionnews logo and enter your city and state, that helps with answers and with understanding what you might be seeing) their presence may be "almost always installed" to "never installed" to "yep, they are now starting to require their installation".

    Being as it is not in the photo (it would be higher than what is shown in the photo) we do not want to make assumptions of what might not be there.

    Allen would know from having been there - and, if a shut-off service valve and sediment trap are not present, then, yes, I would agree that would need more than just mentioning, it should be written up as missing.

    However, there could also be other things outside the photo worth mentioning too, but no way to know if they are present when they should not be, or not present when they should be.
    ????? A drop from above, which we can see in the photo, terminating to a connector looped and serving an appliance laterally, which we can see, and we can see there is nothing below in the photo, or behind it.

    Would you explain that statement, "Being as it is not in the photo (it would be higher than what is shown in the photo)" ???

    I think we can safely assume the photo was taken somewhere on planet Earth. Gravity still draws such (sediment, condensation) DOWN, and furnace panels have safety writing orientated for the reader on planet Earth can review them without hanging upside down - so we can be fairly certain that "up" is to the top of the photo.

    Just where would this "higher than what is shown in the photo" drip leg/sediment trap be?? (Seriously, where?).

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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    I've added bold to highlight the limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    This is the IRC section Jim was referring to:

    (underlining is mine to replicate Jim's underlining)
    - G2422.1.2.3 (411.1.3.3) Prohibited locations and penetrations.Connectors shall not be concealed within, or extended through, walls, floors, partitions, ceilings or appliance housings.
    - - Exception: Fireplace inserts that are factory equipped with grommets, sleeves or other means of protection in accordance with the listing of the appliance.

    Note the wording of that Exception and remember some recent posts and threads on it, brings up a good secondary discussion.
    If it is not a "Fireplace insert" and is not "factory equipped with" a grommet, sleeve or other means of protection in accordance with the listing of the appliance - then it is not allowed.

    The photo either shows a really, really, strange looking "fireplace insert", or it is not allowed.

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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Depending on the jurisdiction may require hard pipe to the gas control valve. Mechanical, Gas or Plumbing Codes may differ.

    Quite a few appliance manufacturers (furnaces included) mention NFPA 54 or the National Fuel Gas Code in their instructions. NFPA 54 limits flexible connectors to three feet except for those required to be moved to position after connection/access (not fixed in place installation) and names specifically ranges and clothes dryers which are allowed six-foot flexible connectors.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by allen elliott View Post
    Is it a violation of the connectors listing on a flexible gas connector to enter the furnace cabinet? If so where can I find something in writing that states this other than on the connector itsef.

    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I've added bold to highlight the limitations.



    If it is not a "Fireplace insert" and is not "factory equipped with" a grommet, sleeve or other means of protection in accordance with the listing of the appliance - then it is not allowed.

    The photo either shows a really, really, strange looking "fireplace insert", or it is not allowed.
    I think we can trust the OP's statement that pictured is a furnace cabinet.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Jerry Peck,

    A drop from above, which we can see in the photo, terminating to a connector looped and serving an appliance laterally, which we can see, and we can see there is nothing below in the photo, or behind it.

    Would you explain that statement, "Being as it is not in the photo (it would be higher than what is shown in the photo)" ???

    I think we can safely assume the photo was taken somewhere on planet Earth. Gravity still draws such (sediment, condensation) DOWN, and furnace panels have safety writing orientated for the reader on planet Earth can review them without hanging upside down - so we can be fairly certain that "up" is to the top of the photo.

    Just where would this "higher than what is shown in the photo" drip leg/sediment trap be?? (Seriously, where?).


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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The photo either shows a really, really, strange looking "fireplace insert", or it is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I think we can trust the OP's statement that pictured is a furnace cabinet.

    I take it that you missed the at the end of that sentence in my post?

    OF COURSE we can take it that Allen posted a photo of a gas furnace ... the exception only applies to "fireplace inserts" and, as that is not a "fireplace insert" the exception does not apply, unless, of course, it is a really, really, strange looking "fireplace insert".

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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Jerry Peck,

    A drop from above, which we can see in the photo, terminating to a connector looped and serving an appliance laterally, which we can see, and we can see there is nothing below in the photo, or behind it.

    Would you explain that statement, "Being as it is not in the photo (it would be higher than what is shown in the photo)" ???

    I think we can safely assume the photo was taken somewhere on planet Earth. Gravity still draws such (sediment, condensation) DOWN, and furnace panels have safety writing orientated for the reader on planet Earth can review them without hanging upside down - so we can be fairly certain that "up" is to the top of the photo.

    Just where would this "higher than what is shown in the photo" drip leg/sediment trap be?? (Seriously, where?).

    Ummmm ... what do you NOT SEE in that photo above the top of the photo? Seriously, what do you *not see* there?

    Hint: Nothing else.

    The connection of the appliance connector is visible at the top of the photo, but ... TO WHAT is that connected?

    Could be a sediment trap with the gas drop coming in from the top, the sediment leg coming out the bottom, with a hard pipe arm out the side of the tee, an elbow, and a hard pipe nipple facing down?

    Nah, that is just too much to consider as to *what MIGHT be* above what is shown in the photo.

    Is it likely that there is no sediment trap? Yep.

    But surely you cannot see nor tell what is not shown. Unless you have supernatural powers, in which case I have my kryptonite in this lead box right here I can take out.

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    But surely you cannot see nor tell what is not shown. Unless you have supernatural powers, in which case I have my kryptonite in this lead box right here I can take out.
    JP: Careful now, "H.G." may indeed denote "Herbert George", in which event he may very well be able to tell the future via the recitation of fictitious events . . .


  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Allen,

    Don't let homeowners tell you also that their plumber told them that wrapping the flex line at the cabinet opening with electrical or duct tape is acceptable cushion either.

    Some will also take foam insulation and wedge it in the opening, not approved either.

    Play the game, write it up!

    rick
    Rick: This is a photo from yesterday. The house flipper had replaced an adjacent 40-gallon water heater with a larger 50-gallon unit and in the process had damaged the already illegal flex brass gas line. He then proceeded to split a piece of conduit and patch the pipe with silicone caulking compound and the conduit. In the second photo you can see where he has reused the old flexible connector for the water heater which is too short for the larger unit and is stressed to the max.

    House flippers should be hanged - in my front yard, so that I can be of assistance.

    Additionally, please note that I purposely cropped these photos so that HG and JP do not head down that same road again . . .

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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Aaron,

    Call me and I'll supply the rope. We don't have to mess your yard with you having that nice park near your place. Plenty of large trees over there. Or we can bring them across the lake over here to Rockwall and tie them up on someone's trot line.

    Seriously I got tired of typing up the comment about the gas flex entering the cabinet all the time that I just made it a permanent comment on my report.

    If it is correct with hard pipe, then I just delete the comment from my report.

    Had one the other day that had a brass flex connected to a copper flex connected to a water heater.

    rick


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Or we can bring them across the lake over here to Rockwall and tie them up on someone's trot line.
    Rick: That sounds like fun!


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Here is another example of the need to protect flexible connectors. This is something I see often, even in new homes. The first photo shows the connector with the drawer removed. The next photo depicts the items just as they were found in the drawer. The BBQ fork was lodged in the cabinet framing with the appliance connector in between the prongs.

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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Aaron,

    Also looks like that must be going through a cabinet side, which is also not allowed.

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  28. #28
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    Also looks like that must be going through a cabinet side, which is also not allowed.
    JP: Aw, now see, there you go again with that HG crap . . . that's why I cropped the photo. I guess that was a true waste of time. But, since you mentioned it here is the photo from the adjacent cabinet.

    Before you say it, it is also not supported and it has no sediment trap. I certainly hope I did not leave anything else in plain sight for you . . .

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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Before you say it, it is also not supported and it has no sediment trap. I certainly hope I did not leave anything else in plain sight for you . . .

    Well ... now that you mention leaving things in plain sight ...

    Looks like that is in a kitchen, thus likely for a range/cook top/ etc., in which case a sediment trap is not required.

    Also looks to be bent too sharply.

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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Well ... now that you mention leaving things in plain sight ...

    Looks like that is in a kitchen, thus likely for a range/cook top/ etc., in which case a sediment trap is not required.

    Also looks to be bent too sharply.
    JP: Wrong. Not required for a range. Required for a cooktop.

    G2419.4 (408.4) Sediment trap. Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shutoff valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical. The sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.

    Webster's defines "range" as "a cooking stove that has an oven and a flat top with burners or heating elements".

    IRC even includes a picture of a range, so that folks such as yourself might not be confused. Next time try this for a helpful memory aid. If it has an oven and a cooktop it is a range if it has one or the other it is not a range.

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  31. #31
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP: Wrong. Not required for a range. Required for a cooktop.
    Not required for a cooktop either.

    If you don't believe me, call the ICC and ask them yourself, those are presented as examples, and it is not required for a cooktop for the same reason it is not required for a range ... you can see the flame and know when it is on, and, like a range, you will know when it is NOT on, so you turn it back off.

    I have, though, wondered why clothes dryers were included in that 'not required' list because you turn the clothes dryer on, never seen the flame, set the timer, and walk away. THAT inclusion in the 'not require' boggles my mind, .... but cooktops ... did you light up early today?

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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    I'm wondering, after reading this chain of posts, if we really need a sediment trap with the materials we use today?

    Gas lines in the street are plastic, and SST in the home. (with exception of meter connection). After all, the sediment trap is to prevent corrosion from iron piping out of the controls and appliance?

    MMM?? Just a thought.


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Not required for a cooktop either.

    If you don't believe me, call the ICC and ask them yourself, those are presented as examples, and it is not required for a cooktop for the same reason it is not required for a range ... you can see the flame and know when it is on, and, like a range, you will know when it is NOT on, so you turn it back off.

    I have, though, wondered why clothes dryers were included in that 'not required' list because you turn the clothes dryer on, never seen the flame, set the timer, and walk away. THAT inclusion in the 'not require' boggles my mind, .... but cooktops ... did you light up early today?
    JP: I understand that, over these many years, you have developed a proclivity toward misinterpretation via definition and phrase coinage. That fact however, does not obviate your responsibility to read and understand the code as stated. The code states "ranges"; not "ranges and similar appliances", just "ranges".

    Unlike you, I do not pretend to know what the intent of the author was in this case. I only know how to read the citation and compare the words within it to the universally-accepted definitions as they are listed in authoritative reference works such as Webster's, et al.

    While you may be able, through your uncanny ability to often elasticize any words or concepts which drift before your eyes, the fact remains that the code says what it says and not what you perceive it, through your decidedly jaundiced vision, to say.

    Though it might make sense that the objective was to protect appliances that are normally not operated automatically, or unattended, that does indeed beg the question which you have already pointed out, about why clothes dryers were exempted. The further statement in the 2006 Commentary serves only to further muddy the waters:

    In addition to the code requirement, most appliance
    manufacturers require the installation of a sediment trap
    (dirt leg) to protect the appliance from debris in the gas.
    Sediment traps are necessary to protect appliance gas
    controls from the dirt, soil, pipe chips, pipe joint tapes and
    compounds and construction site debris that enters the
    piping during installation and repairs. Hazardous appliance
    operation could result from debris entering gas
    controls and burners. Despite the fact that utilities supply
    clean gas, debris can enter the piping prior to and during
    installation on the utility side of the system and on the
    customer side.
    Sediment traps are designed to cause the gas flow to
    change direction 90 degrees (1.57 rad) at the sediment
    collection point, thus causing the solid or liquid contaminants
    to drop out of the gas flow [see Commentary Figure
    G2419.4(1)]. The nipple and cap must not be placed
    in the branch opening of a tee fitting because this would
    not create a change in direction of flow and would allow
    debris to pass over the collection point. Commentary
    Figure G2419.4(2) illustrates an improper sediment trap
    that is prohibited by this section. The code does not
    specify a minimum length for the capped nipple. Three
    inches (76 mm) minimum is customary. The sediment
    trap must be downstream of the appliance shutoff valve
    and as close to the appliance inlet as practical. The sediment
    trap must be downstream of the appliance shutoff
    valve to make sure that it is within 6 feet (1829 mm) of the
    appliance inlet and to allow the trap to be serviced after
    closing the upstream shutoff valve. Manufactured sediment
    traps are available that have the configuration of a
    straight section of pipe and are equipped with cleanout
    openings. Although it would be wise to install sediment
    traps at all appliance connections, they are not mandated
    by code for gas lights, ranges, clothes dryers and
    outdoor grills. These appliances are also susceptible to
    harm from debris in gas, especially ranges and clothes
    dryers, and the appliance manufacturer may require
    sediment traps where the code does not. The code’s
    logic is that these exempt appliances are manually operated
    rather than automatically operated; therefore, the
    user would be in attendance and aware of a problem.
    24-106 2006 INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE
    ®

    So then, when all is said and done, though you may think you know what you are talking about in this instance, the truth is that you do not. Keep s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g and maybe you can get someone else to buy into it. Not me.





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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Amelin View Post
    After all, the sediment trap is to prevent corrosion from iron piping out of the controls and appliance?

    No, the sediment trap is to catch any and all debris which might be in the gas stream and cause the burner to partially clog up or the pilot to partially clog up, thereby allowing gas to escape unburned, accumulating in the structure, waiting for ...

    You are, I think, thinking of "drips" which are to be installed at low points in the gas piping to collect condensation. "Drips" are only required on certain types of gases which contain certain level of moisture or greater.

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  35. #35
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    Default Re: Gas Flex

    (red bold text is mine for highlighting)
    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Although it would be wise to install sediment
    traps at all appliance connections, they are not mandated
    by code for gas lights, ranges, clothes dryers and
    outdoor grills. These appliances are also susceptible to
    harm from debris in gas, especially ranges and clothes
    dryers, and the appliance manufacturer may require
    sediment traps where the code does not. The code’s
    logic is that these exempt appliances are manually operated
    rather than automatically operated; therefore, the
    user would be in attendance and aware of a problem.

    24-106 2006 INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE
    ®
    Thank you for proving my point as to why sediment traps are not required at cooktops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Not required for a cooktop either.

    If you don't believe me, call the ICC and ask them yourself, those are presented as examples, and it is not required for a cooktop for the same reason it is not required for a range ... you can see the flame and know when it is on, and, like a range, you will know when it is NOT on, so you turn it back off.
    I said the same thing they said.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  36. #36
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    (red bold text is mine for highlighting)


    Thank you for proving my point as to why sediment traps are not required at cooktops.



    I said the same thing they said.
    JP: Why, oh why you like to argue so much I simply cannot, for the life of me, say. And with me, of all people. After I have spent so much time and effort quashing the latest rumor about you.

    That's right. Several people from this forum and beyond have recently privately emailed me asking if I was aware that you are the devil incarnate. I said that, though I have never seen your picture or met you in person, I was almost certain you were not the devil himself. It cannot be. The devil is no fool, and you are but his attorney.


  37. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Gas Flex

    What is life if not a debate?

    With the finer points in life being debated as to who is left, who is right, and who is wrong.

    Such as when you posted ICC commentary to support your position when that ICC commentary stated the same thing I had already stated in support of my position, thus proving that my position was correct in the eyes of the ICC.

    Would life really be simpler if someone came on this board, tried, and succeeded, in controlling this board to his own desires, not allowing any other points of view and not allowing debate on any points of view, and in which one could not even mention "NEC" as, heaven forbid, that is "copyrighted" and no one is allowed to post anything which is "copyrighted" (although, I will add, he had not yet taken his efforts to control to that final step) ... would life really be simpler is we all just said "Yes, MR. H. & G., you are correct and never wrong, our most sincere apologies for allowing the thought of you being wrong to even cross our feeble minds."



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  38. #38
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Gas Flex

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    What is life if not a debate?

    With the finer points in life being debated as to who is left, who is right, and who is wrong.

    Such as when you posted ICC commentary to support your position when that ICC commentary stated the same thing I had already stated in support of my position, thus proving that my position was correct in the eyes of the ICC.

    Would life really be simpler if someone came on this board, tried, and succeeded, in controlling this board to his own desires, not allowing any other points of view and not allowing debate on any points of view, and in which one could not even mention "NEC" as, heaven forbid, that is "copyrighted" and no one is allowed to post anything which is "copyrighted" (although, I will add, he had not yet taken his efforts to control to that final step) ... would life really be simpler is we all just said "Yes, MR. H. & G., you are correct and never wrong, our most sincere apologies for allowing the thought of you being wrong to even cross our feeble minds."

    JP: A cooktop is not a range just as a debate is not a deb. It is only half of the equation, much like your argument.
    And don't promote more north (south?) wind from HG. I'm frail, you know.


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