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Thread: CSST Stretched

  1. #1
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    Default CSST Stretched

    Today's inspection. Brand new, just completed home.

    This CSST is stretched somewhat, but there is some play in it; however, I'm also concerned about the location being a hazard. I'm looking in G2422 and it says "protection from damage". This isn't necessarily an area where someone would be walking.

    Is there another code that this would violate?

    Any help is always appreciated. I hope to return the favor.

    Bruce

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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Today's inspection. Brand new, just completed home.

    This CSST is stretched somewhat, but there is some play in it; however, I'm also concerned about the location being a hazard. I'm looking in G2422 and it says "protection from damage". This isn't necessarily an area where someone would be walking.

    Is there another code that this would violate?

    Any help is always appreciated. I hope to return the favor.

    Bruce
    JB: From Gastite

    11. Installation must be properly supported to not only keep the job professional and organized but also to prevent excess strain on the
    bends and fittings.



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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    I realize I should have said gas connector. Are gas connectors "officially" considered CSST?

    So then Aaron, regarding Gastite, would that be for the supply material in the background and not for the connector?

    Bruce

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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Aaron,

    Being as you already have the Gastite book out/open, that also does not meet the supporting and securing distances as I recall (also look at the rest of that gas line going away from the valve toward the attic), maybe not the bending radius either, and (if I recall correctly) that needs to be supported and secured at the bend.

    Then, of course, there in no sediment trap this side of that valve.

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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    I did write up the missing sediment trap (I wonder if our AHJ even requires one).

    Jerry, is there any code issue regarding having the thing 3 ft. off of the ground where someone would have to crawl under it -- potentially damaging it?

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    I realize I should have said gas connector. Are gas connectors "officially" considered CSST?
    Is that a connector and not CSST?

    So then Aaron, regarding Gastite, would that be for the supply material in the background and not for the connector?
    Not Aaron but 'it depends'. The gas supply material in the background is CSST, Gastite is one brand. That connector in the foreground looks like CSST and not a connector. Looks too long to be a connector - optical illusion? Although the ends and the tag do look like a connector?

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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Yes, illusion.

    The connector is 3 ft long. (and I assume connectors are made from stainless tubing)

    The actual CSST is the supply material in the background. I assume that the line Aaron quoted would not be directed toward a connector.

    So, back to my earlier thought, what do you think about the connector?

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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Bruce,

    From the Gastite Installation Instructions (all manufacturers are about the same):
    - e) Avoid stressing the tubing or fittings with tight bends, kinks, twists, stretching or repetitive bending. Refer to Table 4-1 below for the recommended minimum bend radius for CSST (Fig. 4-1).
    - - (that was not done)
    - Table 4-1 Bend Radius
    - - 1/2" = 3.0" Suggested Bend Radius / 3/4" Absolute Minimum Bend Radius (go by Suggested Bend Radius)
    - - 3/4" = 3.0" Suggested Bend Radius / 3/4" Absolute Minimum Bend Radius (go by Suggested Bend Radius)
    - - 1" = 5.0" Suggested Bend Radius / 3" Absolute Minimum Bend Radius (go by Suggested Bend Radius)
    - f) Supporting CSST - Tubing shall be supported in a workmanlike manner with pipe straps, bands or hangers suitable for the size and weight of the tubing, at intervals not to exceed those shown in Table 4-2. A proper support is one which is designed as a pipe hanger, does not damage the tubing during installation, and provides full support. “J” Hooks may not be used as they may damage the CSST. Zip Ties/Cable Ties are not to be used as a primary support but may be used to organize or bundle CSST. See Table 4-5 for supporting CSST in a rooftop application.
    - Table 4-3 Support Spacing (Non-Rooftop) (Jerry's note: "Table 4-2" is a typo and should be "Table 4-3" as "Table 4-2" is a table of torque values.)
    - - 1/2" = 6 feet Vertical or Horizontal
    - - 3/4" = 8 feet (USA) 6 feet (Canada) Vertical or Horizontal
    - - 1" = 8 feet (USA) 6 feet (Canada) Vertical or Horizontal


    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 05-19-2009 at 01:38 PM. Reason: to correct font size / style
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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    So, back to my earlier thought, what do you think about the connector?

    That clothes line?

    Dumb. Stupid. Lacking common sense.

    However, neither the code nor the installation instructions for Gastite address those three things.

    Check the Dormont site ( http://www.dormont.com/dmc/uploadedF...nglishRev3.pdf ) to see what, if anything, they say about it.

    Read 22. in there (bold is theirs, not mine): "21. Appliance MUST BE disconnected prior to maximum movement. Warning: DO NOT OVEREXTEND the gas connector assembly. When moving equipment (for cleaning, maintenance, etc.), follow the instructions on page 8."

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 05-19-2009 at 01:44 PM.
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    Default Re: CSST Stretched



    I agree. Dumb and stupid. Common sense seems to be lacking in many construction areas. However, laziness is abundant.

    You should have seen the paint job on this home. The builder kept trying to tell the buyer that the painter was a professional. I don't know too many professionals who don't use caulk or putty and only paint one coat. Of course the builder had them paint the interior AFTER the carpeting was installed.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Today's inspection. Brand new, just completed home.

    This CSST is stretched somewhat, but there is some play in it; however, I'm also concerned about the location being a hazard. I'm looking in G2422 and it says "protection from damage". This isn't necessarily an area where someone would be walking.

    Is there another code that this would violate?

    Any help is always appreciated. I hope to return the favor.

    Bruce
    Yep, I was flying out the door when I answered that. It is indeed an appliance connector. It also cannot be in a bind.


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    Exclamation connector Stretched

    From the shutoff to the appliance is a flexible appliance connector. Upstream of the shutoff flange is the CSST.

    The listed instructions are on the attached tag in the pic, which is one way you can identify it as a connector. The other is the factory installed flare fittings and adapters at each end.

    connectors should be relaxed and not under strain of any kind. This one has a rather hard bend under load at the appliance end. This one is easy to fix: add a length of black iron pipe from either end.

    Hard to tell in the pic but the shutoff must be within 6ft. of gas control and max. 3ft on connector.

    So, what is there to stand on to operate that shutoff, much less access and service the appliance?
    Bob

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

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    Default Re: connector Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    This one is easy to fix: add a length of black iron pipe from either end.

    Bob,

    I was thinking even easier - remove the elbow and install a coupling and short nipple, maybe 6" long coming out straight. That would also give a reason to remove that white Teflon tape.

    What makes it tight is having to make that 90 degree bend with that connector.

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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    I keep looking at two things in that photo trying to figure out what they are:
    - that large square box: is that a recessed light or an exhaust fan not ducted to the exterior
    - what is that rectangular duct going up to a transition to round and out through the roof - clothes dryer?

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    Default Re: connector Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    ...
    Hard to tell in the pic but the shutoff must be within 6ft. of gas control and max. 3ft on connector.

    So, what is there to stand on to operate that shutoff, much less access and service the appliance?
    Bob
    I had originally told Jerry it was a 3ft connector. I knew it was a small area, but got to wondering if it was a 4 ft b/c I didn't measure it and it "seemed" a little longer than 36". It wasn't stretched completely tight as the photo would lead you to believe, but the play in it wasn't much. I went back to the house (5 min. from mine) and measured it. 48". I already had a reason to write it up but wrote the length up as well as the way it was installed. The floor is doubled up 1/2" OSB to stand on in front of the appliance as well as where the gas shutoff is. The front of the furnace is clear and accessible, but you have to duck under some piping to get to the shutoff.

    I keep looking at two things in that photo trying to figure out what they are:
    - that large square box: is that a recessed light or an exhaust fan not ducted to the exterior
    The large rectangle is one of the water heater's combustion air openings.
    - what is that rectangular duct going up to a transition to round and out through the roof - clothes dryer?
    Yes it's the clothes dryer. I dislike vertical applications, but no one asked me.

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    Default Re: connector Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    I went back to the house (5 min. from mine) and measured it. 48".
    The maximum length of a gas connector is 3 feet, which means that piece between the valve and the appliance *is* CSST.

    - what is that rectangular duct going up to a transition to round and out through the roof - clothes dryer?
    Yes it's the clothes dryer. I dislike vertical applications, but no one asked me.

    That's what I thought, and that is the wrong duct:
    From the 2006 IRC.
    - - M1502.3 Duct size. The diameter of the exhaust duct shall be as required by the clothes dryer’s listing and the manufacturer’s installation instructions.

    The word "diameter" means "round duct". To use otherwise would have to be stated in the manufacturer's installation instructions - I don't recall having seen any which allow the use of rectangular duct ... does not mean there may not be some, just that I don't recall having seen any.

    This came up in South Florida about 18 years ago when I first started inspecting and found some, and then looked at the installation instructions and it was not shown or listed as being allowed in the installation instructions or the code. It was a new house under construction, the builder ended up furring the wall out to make room for the 4" ROUND duct as required.


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    Default Re: connector Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The maximum length of a gas connector is 3 feet, which means that piece between the valve and the appliance *is* CSST.




    That's what I thought, and that is the wrong duct:
    From the 2006 IRC.
    - - M1502.3 Duct size. The diameter of the exhaust duct shall be as required by the clothes dryer’s listing and the manufacturer’s installation instructions.

    The word "diameter" means "round duct". To use otherwise would have to be stated in the manufacturer's installation instructions - I don't recall having seen any which allow the use of rectangular duct ... does not mean there may not be some, just that I don't recall having seen any.

    This came up in South Florida about 18 years ago when I first started inspecting and found some, and then looked at the installation instructions and it was not shown or listed as being allowed in the installation instructions or the code. It was a new house under construction, the builder ended up furring the wall out to make room for the 4" ROUND duct as required.
    Hmmmm....the latest fad around here is the vertical application with this specialty duct that fits b/w the stud and has a round fitting at the dryer (I believe the interior of most are oval-shaped) and then turns round again at the termination.

    I wonder if this isn't in the 2006 IRC b/c this duct is new on the market. I've just started seeing it in the last 1.5-2 yrs.

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    Default Re: connector Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    This came up in South Florida about 18 years ago
    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    I wonder if this isn't in the 2006 IRC b/c this duct is new on the market. I've just started seeing it in the last 1.5-2 yrs.

    I would not call something which has been around 18 years and longer a "new fad".

    Check the clothes dryer installation instructions.

    I may have missed it, but in here ( http://products.geappliances.com/Mar...e=31-16136.pdf ) it only shows and specifies 4" round duct.

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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    two gastite lines can not be joined together like this, correct?

    - - - Updated - - -

    two gastite lines can not be joined together like this, correct?

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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    two gastite lines can not be joined together like this, correct?
    Why not? What is wrong with that? As long as the fittings are the proper fittings at each CSST connection, i.e., 1/2", 3/4" I.P. connections, etc.

    One can attach CSST to a steel pipe going up a furred out wall, then attach CSST to the top where the steel pipe comes out of the furred out wall. Using the steel pipe up the wall reduces the potential for any nail damage to CSST in the wall. All you have, if I am seeing it correctly, is a 'short' section of steel pipe (actually, may be brass pipe/fitting from the color).

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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Looks like you might have a few things going on there.

    It looks like an appliance connector connected to CSST which is a not allowed, since you need a shutoff valve at this connection. And, everything needs to be properly supported and terminated.

    The connector itself my not be listed for use on a furnace.

    Is the connector is going into the furnace or running down the side?



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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Kleisch View Post
    Looks like you might have a few things going on there.

    It looks like an appliance connector connected to CSST which is a not allowed, since you need a shutoff valve at this connection. And, everything needs to be properly supported and terminated.

    The connector itself my not be listed for use on a furnace.

    Is the connector is going into the furnace or running down the side?
    To me that looked like two sections of CSST with a brass fitting between them, however, after Mike's post I zoomed in on the 'fitting' and noticed that there is a bit of red at the far top side of the 'fitting' which indicates that it is a 'shut-off valve' and not just a fitting (I was trying to figure out what type of fitting would be brass like that, and the red handle which is barely visible solved that question).

    Now, though, is that two sections of CSST or is one a connector? I believe it is a connector.

    If that is a connector and that is the service valve for that appliance (a furnace is what it looks like), then a sediment trap is required between the valve and the connector.

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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    two gastite lines can not be joined together like this, correct?

    - - - Updated - - -

    two gastite lines can not be joined together like this, correct?

    That is NOT two sections of CSST but rather Csst with a flexible connector. Notice the label on the connector. No problem with THAT but other issues are present such as missing sediment trap.

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: CSST Stretched

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    two gastite lines can not be joined together like this, correct?

    - - - Updated - - -

    two gastite lines can not be joined together like this, correct?
    That's CSST to an appliance connector. The CSST must be supported and if transitioning to an appliance connector a shut off valve is required at the CSST (supply system) termination. The unattended automated appliance (furnace) requires a sed trap, although that often wasn't enforced in many jurisdictions in TX for many years. If in an attic the lack of a sed trap likely wasn't an AHJ concern but would be for issues with the operating gas valve in the appliance.

    The lack of a valve prior to the appliance connector IS an issue then and now.

    Premanufactured appliance connectors are not the same as CSST, and they may never be connected end to end, nor are they ever an acceptable extension of the gas piping (or tubing) system, never upstream of a servicing valve. The CSST must be supported as per mfg instructions and the code version in force at the time of installtion, modification,or maintenance/equipment replacement.


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