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  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Condensate drain lines

    This unit is located in a crawl space. The code indicated, 1411.3.1, secondary lines are required when leakage will result in damage to any building component. Not much to damage down here. Is there a section of the code I am overlooking.

    Thank you
    Mat

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Is there a section of the code I am overlooking.
    Mat,

    Yes, you overlooked this section:
    - M1401.1 Installation. Heating and cooling equipment and appliances shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions and the requirements of this code.

    And the MII (Manufacturer's Installation Instructions) specifically require the secondary drain line, with both drain lines being trapped. That primary condensate line is not trap, but you already got that, I am sure.

    The auxiliary drain pan, I would have to check a few installation instructions, but, if both drain lines are installed as required, the pan is almost not even needed.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Mat,

    By the way, I doubt that bottom chord on that I-Joist is rated for hanging that unit from it.

    Also, all those panel joints would need to be sealed to keep from drawing crawl space air into the unit.

    I don't see a sediment trap at the gas line.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Thanks Jerry.


  5. #5
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Jerry,
    Just curious, how can I joists be rated to hang drywall but not HVAC units.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Jerry,
    Just curious, how can I joists be rated to hang drywall but not HVAC units.

    The weight of drywall is spread out over a large area. The weight of the HVAC unit is point loaded at the 4 hanger locations.

    Same thing for trusses:
    - R802.10.4 Alterations to trusses. Truss members shall not be cut, notched, drilled, spliced or otherwise altered in any way without the approval of a registered design professional. Alterations resulting in the addition of load (e.g., HVAC equipment, water heater) that exceeds the design load for the truss shall not be permitted without verification that the truss is capable of supporting such additional loading.

    I would want to check with the manufacturer of those I-Joists about that unit hanging from its bottom chord. You would not want the weight of that unit to gradually migrate the bottom chord through its adhesive and bow it downward off the web, the entire I-Joist could collapse that way.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Thanks again, you are wise


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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Great info on OP's pic Jerry! If I had to prove the point to someone, HVAC guy lets say, where could I reference the info about the sealed panel joints on the appliance, I'm not finding it anywhere in my stuff! And thanks again for the great info!


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    Great info on OP's pic Jerry! If I had to prove the point to someone, HVAC guy lets say, where could I reference the info about the sealed panel joints on the appliance, I'm not finding it anywhere in my stuff! And thanks again for the great info!
    Brian,

    Being as that unit is outside the thermal envelope of the building it becomes 'part of' that thermal envelope. Any air leakage into that is the same as air leakage into the building through the thermal envelope

    The following two code sections are from the 2006 ICC Energy Code.
    - 402.4 Air leakage. (Mandatory).
    - - 402.4.1 Building thermal envelope. The building thermal envelope shall be durably sealed to limit infiltration. The sealing methods between dissimilar materials shall allow for differential expansion and contraction. The following shall be caulked, gasketed, weatherstripped or otherwise sealed with an air barrier material, suitable film or solid material:
    - - - 1. All joints, seams and penetrations.
    - - - 2. Site-built windows, doors and skylights.
    - - - 3. Openings between window and door assemblies and their respective jambs and framing.
    - - - 4. Utility penetrations.
    - - - 5. Dropped ceilings or chases adjacent to the thermal envelope.
    - - - 6. Knee walls.
    - - - 7. Walls and ceilings separating a garage from conditioned spaces.
    - - - 8. Behind tubs and showers on exterior walls.
    - - - 9. Common walls between dwelling units.

    - - - 10. Other sources of infiltration.

    - 403.2 Ducts.
    - - 403.2.1 Insulation.Supply and return ducts shall be insulated to a minimum of R-8. Ducts in floor trusses shall be insulated to a minimum of R-6.
    - - - Exception:Ducts or portions thereof located completely inside the building thermal envelope.
    - - 403.2.2 Sealing.All ducts, air handlers, filter boxes, and building cavities used as ducts shall be sealed. Joints and seams shall comply with Section M1601.3.1 of the International Residential Code.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Jerry, thank you very much, much appreciated!


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Hi,
    1) Regarding sediment leg on the gas line, is there anything conclusive that tells us that a sediemtn leg is required?
    I know of nothing in the code that requires it.
    2) The information about the ICC Energy Code is all great but if the municipality does not have it adopted,or was not adopted at the time of the installation, then compliance is not necessary. It is a good recommendation, however, not required.

    If you know of anything stated, besides manufacturer's recommendations, such as codes, that requires the sediment line, I would appreciate it.
    Thank you.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Even though the municipality may not have adopted and does not enforce the energy code, I was under the impression that most states had to adopt an energy code in order to receive federal funding. You might want to check into your state codes. I believe this was the case with Texas several years ago, there was much made of the change, but no real enforcement as there (at that time) was no enforcement arm state wide.

    2003 IRC
    G2419.4 Sediment trap. Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shutoff valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical the sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.


    Last edited by Jim Luttrall; 05-29-2009 at 08:12 AM.
    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Bauer View Post
    Hi,
    1) Regarding sediment leg on the gas line, is there anything conclusive that tells us that a sediemtn leg is required?
    I know of nothing in the code that requires it.
    The entire discussion on sediment traps has occurred because the code does require a sediment trap, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

    From the 2006 IRC and then the IFGC.
    - IRC - G2419.4 (408.4) Sediment trap. Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shutoff valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical. The sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.

    - IFGC - 408.4 Sediment trap. Where a sediment trap is not incorporated as part of the gas utilization equipment, a sediment trap shall be installed downstream of the equipment shutoff valve as close to the inlet of the equipment as practical. The sediment trap shall be either a tee fitting with a capped nipple in the bottom opening of the run of the tee or other device approved as an effective sediment trap. Illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers and outdoor grills need not be so equipped.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    1) Thank you, I appreciate the information about the sediment traps! I have read it before and for some reason was having a lapse of memory.

    2) In Illinois, the state has not adopted the Energy Conservation Code for Residential.
    Illinois has adopted the Energy Conservation Code for Commercial only.

    Thanks again!


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Condensate drain lines

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Bauer View Post
    2) In Illinois, the state has not adopted the Energy Conservation Code for Residential.
    Illinois has adopted the Energy Conservation Code for Commercial only.
    Kenneth,

    In that case, you would need to check some of the installation instruction manuals and see how they address sealing of the equipment when installed outside the thermal envelope of the building.

    The following would apply to crawl space mounted equipment and may help you.

    From the 2006 IRC.
    - M1401.1 Installation. Heating and cooling equipment and appliances shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s installation instructions and the requirements of this code.
    - M1401.2 Access. Heating and cooling equipment shall be located with respect to building construction and other equipment to permit maintenance, servicing and replacement. Clearances shall be maintained to permit cleaning of heating and cooling surfaces; replacement of filters, blowers, motors, controls and vent connections; lubrication of moving parts; and adjustments.
    - M1401.3 Sizing. Heating and cooling equipment shall be sized based on building loads calculated in accordance with ACCA Manual J or other approved heating and cooling calculation methodologies.
    - M1401.4 Exterior installations. Equipment installed outdoors shall be listed and labeled for outdoor installation. Supports and foundations shall prevent excessive vibration, settlement or movement of the equipment. Supports and foundations shall be level and conform to the manufacturer’s installation instructions. (Jerry's note: The crawl space is not "indoors", so is it "outdoors"? If so, the equipment would need to be listed and labeled for "Outdoor Use", and I doubt it is.)
    - M1401.5 Flood hazard. In areas prone to flooding as established by Table R301.2(1), heating and cooling equipment and appliances shall be located or installed in accordance with Section R323.1.5. (Jerry's note: When located in a flood hazard area, the equipment needs to be elevated above the BFE and DFE [Base Flood Elevation and Design Flood Elevation - DFE is always higher than BFE as it is intended to provide additional elevation and protection against floods], and if not, then it is not allowed in the crawl space anyway.)

    - M1305.1.4 Appliances under floors. Underfloor spaces containing appliances requiring access shall have an unobstructed passageway large enough to remove the largest appliance, but not less than 30 inches (762 mm) high and 22 inches (559 mm) wide, nor more than 20 feet (6096 mm) long when measured along the centerline of the passageway from the opening to the appliance. A level service space at least 30 inches (762 mm) deep and 30 inches (762 mm) wide shall be present at the front or service side of the appliance. If the depth of the passageway or the service space exceeds 12 inches (305 mm) below the adjoining grade, the walls of the passageway shall be lined with concrete or masonry extending 4 inches (102 mm) above the adjoining grade in accordance with Chapter 4. The rough-framed access opening dimensions shall be a minimum of 22 inches by 30 inches (559 mm by 762 mm), where the dimensions are large enough to remove the largest appliance.
    - - Exceptions:
    - - - 1. The passageway is not required where the level service space is present when the access is open, and the appliance can be serviced and removed through the required opening.
    - - - 2. Where the passageway is unobstructed and not less than 6 feet high (1929 mm) and 22 inches wide for its entire length, the passageway shall not be limited in length.
    - -
    M1305.1.4.1 Ground clearance. Appliances supported from the ground shall be level and firmly supported on a concrete slab or other approved material extending above the adjoining ground. Appliances suspended from the floor shall have a clearance of not less than 6 inches (152 mm) from the ground.

    - SECTION M1307
    - - APPLIANCE INSTALLATION
    - - - M1307.1 General. Installation of appliances shall conform to the conditions of their listing and label and the manufacturer’s installation instructions. The manufacturer’s operating and installation instructions shall remain attached to the appliance.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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