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Thread: ever seen this?

  1. #1
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    Default ever seen this?

    The owner, who was not present to question, is an engineer type person. I was told by the buyer that these things are intended to make the vent pipes into some kind of radiator.

    What else could it be? an attemby to cool the flue gasses?

    I don't now.

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  2. #2
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Wasted sheet metal?


  3. #3
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Clever, I wonder if it actually works.


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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Works or not, it will cool the vent down and reduce the effectiveness of the drafting of the appliances.

    There is a reason you cannot buy vents with that stuff on them by the manufacturer. And not just because it looks butt-ugly either.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  5. #5
    Colton Johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Actually the furnace in the pic looks like a old 60 to 65% unit. The flue gas temp on those old units are quite high so drawing some of the heat that is wasted off the flue/chimney connector is OK BUT you need to be sure the flue gas temp does not drop below the temp needed to keep the draw going.

    Years ago I invented a system that used a small fan that attached in line at the chimney connector pipe right on top of the furnace where the discharge came out. These units actually removed quite a bit of heat without any problems. They had a small white rodgers style control that would turn the fan on when the temp was correct for proper operation and it would also turn the fan off to prevent the flue gas from becoming to cool. They were only sold to professionals/trades people and naturally you needed some test equipment to be sure it was installed and adjusted correctly.

    These style energy savers would never fly on the new style equiptment that is in use today.

    I was not the first one who actually thought of this idea the Holland Coal Furnace company was.


  6. #6

    Default Re: ever seen this?

    If those fins are not listed for use with that vent/ connector than they should be removed as far as I am concerned.


  7. #7
    Colton Johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    If those fins are not listed for use with that vent/ connector than they should be removed as far as I am concerned.

    That sounds good but the connector material could have come from many different manufactures of Galv pipe and unless you know for sure that all 28 manufactures of the pipe did not approve these how can you be sure they were not approved.

    The point I am making is that

    The pipe and attachments are existing.
    They were probably installed 20 or more years ago.
    They do not seem to be doing any harm to the pipe since it is not corroded or rusted which is a sign of low flue gas temperature.
    Did you research the manufacturer of the devices and see if at one time they had a UL or CSA approval?

    When items are existing like in this case legally you cannot make someone remove them. Now you can run a bluff and hope the homeowner is not to smart in regards to codes and how they work.

    I understand a home inspector has a duty to make calls on serious items in homes that could be a safety hazzard BUT no safety hazzard exists here.

    I am new here but not new to inspections. I have been doing inspections since 1978 and I like to feel out the group to see where everyone is at.

    I do not make arbitrary calls but inforce the codes that were in place at the time of the original construction unless updates have been made then the updates have to be in compliance with the code in place during the year of the update. In other words I do not act as a hunting party for a prespective buyer so they can hammer the owner with a lot of code violations to reduce the price. I also do not charge 500.00 for a inspection so I do not feel obligated to type 10,000 words on my laptop to prove to the customer that they got there 500.00 worth.

    I am also a PW (Professional Witness) and many times I have to testify against a fellow housing inspector because they made calls that were not to code at the time of construction and in turn this cost the homeowner thousands of dollars in unnecessary expense.

    I always recommend that housing inspectors make notations of what would be nice to have to bring the home up to the current standards but tell them not to quote some 2008 version of the code for a home built in 1950 since it has no actual bearing on code compliance at the time the structure was built and it has no legal code bearing when it is inspected for sale. Now this is different if your jurisdiction has a law that requires homes to be upgraded to the curent standards before they are offered for sale or if the bank requires it for some reason or another.

    We all have a job to do and that is to tell the truth and be accurate in our inspections. I never could understand how a code from 2008/2009 could be applied to a 1950 home unless the local jurisdiction has amended the law to include the older homes in the code or other work was done to the item in question after the home was built.

    Example
    The NEC (National Electric Code) allows you to have existing knob and tube wiring and it also allows you to repair same. So the home does not have to be rewired to meet code compliance.

    Fuses boxes are allowed also.

    Now most inspectors will make a call on these items since they are of older design but it better not be a violation of code call since it does not violate the code and does not have to be replaced.

    These are just my thoughts on situations like these and everyone has there own opinion.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Colton

    Good explanation and very valid points about correcting pre existing conditions being brought up to code.

    Btw did you see the yellow discolouration in the upper portion of the supply manifold in the first picture?


  9. #9
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    When items are existing like in this case legally you cannot make someone remove them.
    CJ: While true, you can at a minimum inform the client that this is an unorthodox installation of questionable integrity.

    I understand a home inspector has a duty to make calls on serious items in homes that could be a safety hazzard BUT no safety hazzard exists here.
    CJ: And, in your opinion, what does the term "serious" denote when used in this context? Are you advocating that HIs only address bona fide barn-burner issues? And is "hazzard" only an electrical thing?

    I like to feel out the group to see where everyone is at.
    CJ: Stop that, it tickles!

    I do not make arbitrary calls but inforce the codes that were in place at the time of the original construction unless updates have been made then the updates have to be in compliance with the code in place during the year of the update.
    CJ: That would be "enforce" the codes? Are you an AHJ? If not, you have no enforcement authority.

    In other words I do not act as a hunting party for a prospective buyer so they can hammer the owner with a lot of code violations to reduce the price. I also do not charge 500.00 for a inspection so I do not feel obligated to type 10,000 words on my laptop to prove to the customer that they got there 500.00 worth.
    CJ: And what, pray tell, were you puffing on just prior to penning that coruscating gem of wisdom?

    I am also a PW (Professional Witness)
    CJ: So then, you admit you are a hired gun?

    I always recommend that housing inspectors make notations of what would be nice to have to bring the home up to the current standards but tell them not to quote some 2008 version of the code for a home built in 1950 since it has no actual bearing on code compliance at the time the structure was built and it has no legal code bearing when it is inspected for sale.
    CJ: You are obviously not in Texas, or you would know that this is BS.

    Now this is different if your jurisdiction has a law that requires homes to be upgraded to the curent standards before they are offered for sale or if the bank requires it for some reason or another.
    CJ: That would be the Left Coast.

    I never could understand how a code from 2008/2009 could be applied to a 1950 home unless the local jurisdiction has amended the law to include the older homes in the code or other work was done to the item in question after the home was built.
    CJ: Again, reference the Texas SOP.

    Example
    The NEC (National Electric Code) allows you to have existing knob and tube wiring and it also allows you to repair same. So the home does not have to be rewired to meet code compliance.
    CJ: While this is partially true, I have only once seen a K&T installation that was both properly installed and maintained. Usually they are such a jumble of NEC violations that pulling new NM makes fiscal sense.
    Fuses boxes are allowed also.

    Now most inspectors
    CJ: Until you have polled us all, you are not qualified to make that statement.

    These are just my thoughts on situations like these and everyone has there own opinion.
    CJ: And, those were mine. Sit back, take another puff, relax.


  10. #10
    Colton Johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    While it did catch my eye I saw no reason to mention it. My reasoning is this.

    I do not believe that possible over temperature mark is from the operation of this furnace. This furnace looks like it was a replacement unit and that mark might have came from the unit it replaced.

    The present furnace is spaced down to far from the round supply takeoffs especially since the A/C coil and cabinet is installed in between to cause a heat mark like it is showing. The A/C system probably was added when the original furnace was replaced. That is a old collector box for sure since you do not see swept collectors/supply boxes anymore. The furnace return also has a canvas flex separator installed and finding them in a residential setting is somewhat unusual also. It looks like a old pro did the install.

    Could be there was a old oil furnace installed there at one time. They were notorious for this type of markings. From here with only those two pictures it is hard to tell and all I am doing a lot of this from memory of days gone past.


    While this photo is of a newer style unit the old style units with nonpowered burners could also jump out of the combustion chamber. Now days they have a fuseable link that will trip and stop the burner on a bad roll out situation but back then on the original unit it may not have had one and the heat soak on the metal above could have been severe.As I said this is kind of guess work on my part since I have not been there and do not know the install history. Install history can sometimes be told by the old coal bin or a cemented in flue area among other items.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Now most inspectors will make a call on these items since they are of older design but it better not be a violation of code call since it does not violate the code and does not have to be replaced.
    I never mention its a code violation especially in homes that are decades old and the current code doesn't apply. In many cases (at least up here and excluding Texas) the home insurers are calling the shots superceding the legislated code requirements.


  12. #12
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    Smile Re: ever seen this?

    To the texas two stepper.

    Never been to Texas but I have been to Montana. I collect western art and bronzes. Many years ago I had a contract to buy indian blankets and traveled there in my van to pick them up. But never Texas. To much braging goes on there.

    AHJ yep you caught me. I have a perminent tickets. Building,Mechanical,Sprinkler, Electrical Safety, and a CBO (Chief Building Official). I also have a teaching certificate's in all those and my classes are accepted for inspector recertification as well as contractor recertification. In this area the requirements are 30 hours contact class time every three years. My classes are given at one of the local universitys and I do them for free or as it is called (augratis). While I am retired I am still called once in a while by the state fire marshall to help find the cause of suspious fires in a three state area and I do teach at my will (when I feel like it) a quick HVAC course at NKU. This course is designed for the seasoned professional to update them on all the new toys in the industry and how to properly use the newer diagnostic tools available to the trade.


    You just got to love the old set back thermostats.

    It is Friday and the sun is up so it looks like a boat ride is in order to start the day. Have a good one.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    But never Texas. To much braging goes on there.
    CJ: Down here "bragging" is referred to as "poor-mouthing". Texas-talk is an art form. I am a mere apprentice, but a diligent student of the genre.

    AHJ yep you caught me.
    CJ: That was an easy one to guess.

    This course is designed for the seasoned professional to update them on all the new toys in the industry and how to properly use the newer diagnostic tools available to the trade.
    CJ: Would like to hear more about that.

    It is Friday and the sun is up so it looks like a boat ride is in order to start the day.
    CJ: Had to settle for a bike ride at 4:30 this morning. No lake and no boat.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colton Johnson View Post
    I understand a home inspector has a duty to make calls on serious items in homes that could be a safety hazzard BUT no safety hazzard exists here.
    John:

    There are at least two potential hazards here.

    Using radiator fins of this type to cool exhaust combustion gases beneath the temperature engineered by the manufacturer can cause condensation in the chimney as well as in the flue. Condensation from flue gas contains corrosive chemicals and can damage both metal and brick chimneys. These fins are by definition in conflict with the manufacturer's installation instructions and should be referred to a qualified contractor who is trained and certified in combustion safety.

    There are two combustion appliances here. Perhaps the furnace is horrendously oversized and drafts under any conditions by wasting heat energy. The water heater, on the other hand, is much smaller and may not generate enough heat when the furnace is not running as well for the flue gas to move up the chimney. In that case the water heater will spill combustion by-products into the house where they don't belong. We all know about the hazard of carbon monoxide inside the house, but the main component of flue gas is actually water vapor. Adding unnecessary moisture to the living space of the house is not a good idea. Think of those idiotic "lint trap" dryer vents that add moisture as well as chlorine from laundry soap and fabric softeners to the air in the house. Extra moisture can lead to mold and rot. Chlorine is a corrosive. Chlorine gas is a chemical weapon.

    There might not be a visible problem now, but what happens when your client buys the house and tightens it up by replacing the windows and weatherstripping the doors? Suddenly those indoor pollutants become much more hazardous.

    The fact that there were no visible issues at the time of the inspection doesn't wash because the fins are inconsistent with the manufacturer's specifications. The fact that the seller was an engineer doesn't wash because engineers also designed the Corvair, the Pinto, and the heat shield tiles on the space shuttle Challenger. As always, the inspector's best tool is his or her continuing education.

    These fins should be called out as potentially hazardous and referred to an expert in the field.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    The burning of fossil fuels produces combustion gases which contain, among other things, two substances which are corrosive to metals and other materials: water and sulfur dioxide. When combined these produce sulfuric acid. This fins will allow the combustion gases to linger longer than they should, thereby exposing the vents to excessive amounts of these substances.

    A bit off the subject, but relevant, you should call out gas appliance direct vents when terminated adjacent to A/C condensers. The gases will rapidly corrode the aluminum coils, and any exposed wiring (re: NEC 110.11).


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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Would someone mind explaining to me why a home inspector in Ohio, Virginia, or anywhere outside of Texas would have any reason to be concerned with Home Inspection SOP of Texas?

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks View Post
    Would someone mind explaining to me why a home inspector in Ohio, Virginia, or anywhere outside of Texas would have any reason to be concerned with Home Inspection SOP of Texas?
    Because the rest of us are astounded that it includes what it does.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Because the rest of us are astounded that it includes what it does.
    Then, I suppose we should all feel lucky

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

  19. #19
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Because the rest of us are astounded that it includes what it does.
    JP: As are we who bear the burden of the TREC's poorly-conceived, poorly-crafted, can-of-worms SOP.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks View Post
    Then, I suppose we should all feel lucky
    SB: Amen.


  21. #21
    Colton Johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Voytovich View Post
    John:

    There are at least two potential hazards here.

    Using radiator fins of this type to cool exhaust combustion gases beneath the temperature engineered by the manufacturer can cause condensation in the chimney as well as in the flue. Condensation from flue gas contains corrosive chemicals and can damage both metal and brick chimneys. These fins are by definition in conflict with the manufacturer's installation instructions and should be referred to a qualified contractor who is trained and certified in combustion safety.

    There are two combustion appliances here. Perhaps the furnace is horrendously oversized and drafts under any conditions by wasting heat energy. The water heater, on the other hand, is much smaller and may not generate enough heat when the furnace is not running as well for the flue gas to move up the chimney. In that case the water heater will spill combustion by-products into the house where they don't belong. We all know about the hazard of carbon monoxide inside the house, but the main component of flue gas is actually water vapor. Adding unnecessary moisture to the living space of the house is not a good idea. Think of those idiotic "lint trap" dryer vents that add moisture as well as chlorine from laundry soap and fabric softeners to the air in the house. Extra moisture can lead to mold and rot. Chlorine is a corrosive. Chlorine gas is a chemical weapon.

    There might not be a visible problem now, but what happens when your client buys the house and tightens it up by replacing the windows and weatherstripping the doors? Suddenly those indoor pollutants become much more hazardous.

    The fact that there were no visible issues at the time of the inspection doesn't wash because the fins are inconsistent with the manufacturer's specifications. The fact that the seller was an engineer doesn't wash because engineers also designed the Corvair, the Pinto, and the heat shield tiles on the space shuttle Challenger. As always, the inspector's best tool is his or her continuing education.

    These fins should be called out as potentially hazardous and referred to an expert in the field.

    Some inspectors will always make a mountain out of a little moel hill every time.
    I can guarantee that the fins were not mentioned in the original installers manual for that furnace.LOL
    A engineer with a license in the subject state can put his PE stamp on those fins if he wants to and BTW the engineers stamp over rides any and all inspectors/inspections at least in the three states I deal with.

    What someone makes changes after the fact (making the house tighter) has NO bearing on the inspection that is being done now. That is like reporting that the footer is not large enough for a two story house when it is only one story you are inspecting now.

    The same can be said for a good 100 amp service. If they go with electric strip heat and a heat pump and overload the service after they buy the house does that mean we should write down the 100 amp service as a discovered fault and require the seller to install a 200 amp service just incase the buyer might change the heat system.

    When you are wrong you are wrong. Almost every day in the citys around here private pay inspectors are being successfully sued for this type of actions. When a homeowner finds out that they had to spend 5 or 10 thousand dollars just to sell there house then find out it was all a bluff they get angry and rightfully so. Lawyers love these kind of cases because the proof for these requirements or unnecessary changes to the structure are not always there making the lawyers job a piece of cake.

    Private for pay inspectors have a very valuable job to do but that does not include making up there own set of rules to follow or making a hazzard out of something that is not a hazzard at the time of the inspection. The private inspectors job is to make sure that there are no serious problems with the house so the bank/buyer feels more comfortable with the transaction. It is not the inspectors job to force GFI protection on a home built in 1950 if they were not in the electric code at the time or requiring guards to be put on steps when the original code just called for a hand rail. I guess the next red tag of the month will be that all old homes have to have arc fault breakers installed so the are brought up to the latest NEC. Will the foolishness ever end.LOL

    My opinions are based on what happen in the area I deal with. Many other states and countrys have there own set of rules when dealing with older homes.


  22. #22
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    Post Re: ever seen this?

    This is a late 1950's to early 1960's heat reclamation setup. I have seen these before, and several times with the old, inefficient furnace still running. They will kick off some pretty good heat on a cold day when the furnace is running a lot. Though one might expect that the installer of the newer furnace would have made a determination as to whether or not they should stay, that may not have happened. It is simple enough to write it up to have a licensed HVAC contractor check the furnace and venting.

    Randall Aldering GHI BAOM MSM
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Aldering View Post
    This is a late 1950's to early 1960's heat reclamation setup. I have seen these before, and several times with the old, inefficient furnace still running. They will kick off some pretty good heat on a cold day when the furnace is running a lot. Though one might expect that the installer of the newer furnace would have made a determination as to whether or not they should stay, that may not have happened. It is simple enough to write it up to have a licensed HVAC contractor check the furnace and venting.
    I agree when in doupt always have a professional in there perspective trade check out anything deemed necessary and pass the liability on to them. That is why they make the big bucks to start with.

    The boat ride was wonderful.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Some inspectors will always make a mountain out of a little moel hill every time.
    CJ: And some AHJs haven't cracked a code book since Watergate. Some who have can't read. Some who can read do not understand what they have read. Those that can understand the words don't know the meanings. The few who can understand the meanings can't interpret them properly. And those rare shining gems who can do all of the above do not have the time to enforce what they know. Even if they did have the time, politics would prevent anything other than selective code enforcement.

    The same can be said for a good 100 amp service.
    CJ: 100-amp service is NEC-compliant. It is very light in the ass, but compliant.

    When you are wrong you are wrong.
    CJ: Well, sure . . .


    Almost every day in the citys around here private pay inspectors are being successfully sued for this type of actions.
    CJ: There are some very capable attorneys in my area who have been successfully suing AHJs over the past few years for their lackluster performances. There will be much, much more of this to come.

    Private for pay inspectors have a very valuable job to do but
    CJ: Agreed.

    The private inspectors job is to make sure that there are no serious problems with the house
    CJ: While true, that is not the entire extent of it. Identifying and reporting on "major deficiencies" is the minimal standard in most areas. Many, if not most, inspectors exceed the minimum - and, if properly informed and motivated should exceed the entry-level requirements.

    It is not the inspectors job to force
    CJ: HIs have no authority to "force" or "compel", but rather to persuade.

    Many other states and countrys have there own set of rules when dealing with older homes.
    CJ: As an AHJ, and like most AHJs, you appear to be of the "grandfathered" tribe. While I fully understand the need to use this term and all it entails, it lies strictly in the realm of municipal departments, and not in the real world. It derives from the impossibility of the AHJ's ability to enforce compliance with future code changes.

    However, as new materials, devices, systems, and installations come into play that make this a safer world in which to live, today's home buyer should be made aware of these so that he can avail himself of the newest technologies for protection of his family.

    As an AHJ, you may not be able to do this. We can.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    and the heat shield tiles on the space shuttle Challenger
    As an engineer I should point out that the heat sheild tiles did not fail on the Challenger....the inadequate constraint of "O"-rings caused the disaster.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    CJ: And some AHJs haven't cracked a code book since Watergate. Some who have can't read. Some who can read do not understand what they have read. Those that can understand the words don't know the meanings. The few who can understand the meanings can't interpret them properly. And those rare shining gems who can do all of the above do not have the time to enforce what they know. Even if they did have the time, politics would prevent anything other than selective code enforcement.
    And yet, the errant builder will still protest, "But, it was inspected!" or "I got a OP!" Hah!
    I ran into a contractor who didn't think much of Home Inspectors (probably had good cause) He wanted all home inspectors to be code certified. Gee, I think it would help more if all the contractors were code certified.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

  27. #27
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Gee, I think it would help more if all the contractors were code certified
    SB: Hell, even just a few of them would be a good start!


  28. #28
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    ((CJ: As an AHJ, and like most AHJs, you appear to be of the "grandfathered" tribe. While I fully understand the need to use this term and all it entails, it lies strictly in the realm of municipal departments, and not in the real world. It derives from the impossibility of the AHJ's ability to enforce compliance with future code changes.

    However, as new materials, devices, systems, and installations come into play that make this a safer world in which to live, today's home buyer should be made aware of these so that he can avail himself of the newest technologies for protection of his family.))


    We have no grandfather claus in any of our code books. The grandfather thing is very over used and it is mostly used when a contractor has himself up a wall and hanging by a thread.

    The reason I give code classes is to teach the uninformed of the new devices and equipment that is available to the various professional today and some stuff that is so new it has yet to be released. This way the inspectors and installers get a jump on the situation and no one especially the inspectors are suprised when they see a new and unusual item. Nothing in the world worse than a inspector on a inspection looking at a new device that he has never seen before especially when the contractor is standing there watching the inspector be stupid. (we cured much of that years ago by demanding that the manufactures install instructions be left at the job site for the the inspectors use while doing the inspection.
    Below you will see a partial list of different manufactures that I personally deal with. They consider me a field engineer since I trouble shoot there devices that are causing problems and make corrections in the field so the unit performs as specified. I really enjoy teaching and mixing it up with the contractors on trouble jobs when I am called in by the manufacturer. I am getting old and partially retired so I will be doing less and less of this kind of work as time goes by. It is also great the the manufactures donate various parts and pieces so they can be shown in class along with full units that is time allows we actually hook up and run in the enviromental chamber at the university.

    Fifteen years ago or there abouts I located a used enviromental chamber made by Westinghouse and persuaded the owners to donate it to the university. Then at my request Honeywell donated a complete new control system for the chamber. I had the full time students do all the hookups and the university became a testing lab for HVAC equipment. Many of you probably wondered exactly where all those SEER and other efficiency numbers come from and how they go about getting them. The answer is simple the university does this work for profit in order to support the HVAC classes. I new years ago that the students could never afford to go to the university if they were charged full price so this way every students admission is discounted by the additional funding brought in by the testing.

    In many respects I love this industry. I breath it in every day. My wife says I talk about it in my sleep so in some respects I must be a bit looney.
    I would rather trouble shoot equipment than go to a football or baseball game. That is just the way I am. Everything can be argued till the cows come home and that is why we have something called a variances. Our board consists of 12 of the best professionals in there respective trades. When a contractor has a problem and is tagged he brings the problem to the board if he so wishes and after hearing all sides to the problem a vote is taken on weather or not to allow the code to be modified for this one job. Many problems are solved that way not only for the contractor but also for the owner. I must say very few variances are granted but the problems are solved.

    Below is that short list I talked about. These are great manufactures but like all companys they do have problems from time to time with there equipment. But most of the time it is improper installs that cause the major amount of complaints.

    Some of my past customers

    White Rodgers
    Honeywell
    Goodman Manufacturing
    Mortex
    Carrier
    Bryant
    Trane
    Paloma
    A O Smith
    United Technologys
    York
    Lennox
    Watts
    Parker
    Grundfos
    Braeburn
    Venstar
    Mueller
    Nordyne
    Flair It
    Peerless
    Power Star
    EEMAX
    Robertshaw
    Supco
    Kane May
    Beckett
    Coleman
    Effikal
    and many others

    Have a good weekend.


  29. #29
    Join Date
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    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colton Johnson View Post
    We have no grandfather claus in any of our code books.
    Actually, your codes do have a grandfather clause as is most often used regarding construction.

    This is it right here - this one is from the 2006 IRC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - R101.2 Scope. The provisions of the International Residential Code for One- and Two-family Dwellings shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above-grade in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures.

    Once permitted, inspected, signed off, and given a certificate of occupancy, the structure or building is allowed to stand as is without updating to meet each new code cycle's new requirements.

    That means that all old work, i.e., all existing work, is "grandfathered in" ... provided it actually was code compliant originally.

    The problem comes when home inspectors find non-compliant *not complaint at the time of construction* items which need correction.

    While those non-code compliant items only *HAD* to meet the code at the time of construction, being found non-compliant and in need of correcting, those items are now required to meet the *CURRENT* code at the time of the correction.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  30. #30
    Colton Johnson's Avatar
    Colton Johnson Guest

    Default Re: ever seen this?

    No arguement on the statement but the work grandfathered is not in the code book and that was the point I was making. The intent of the code is to have control of the construction/life safety items at the time of the construction not 25 years down the road. Naturally newer and better ideas come alone all the time and for the code cycle is usually every three years for the changes. I have sat on many a code making/decission panels and fought for and against different items. No one can be forced to upgrade to the bigger and better code compliance issues unless (example here) you are redoing over 50% etc of the structure then you can be forced to comply with life safety items like alarms,smoke detectors,and other items unless you get a varience due to hardship. Very few variences are granted because while legal to do so most board members would feel very bad if a varience would cause a fire or worse a loss of life. All building officials in my area cannot be sued. You can try to sue them but it will be tossed out of court on the first pass. As long as a inspector shows up on the job site for a called for inspection he is covered for any errors or omissions by state law.

    Lets face it all of this started years ago by the insurance companys after they were taking heavy losses due to fires. The codes were put in place and then a few years later inspections were started by knowledgeable employees of the insurance company to make sure the structure complied with the code. Then the various governments got involved with the permit money generating system that we have today. In order to build you need a permit. As part of the permit process the auditor is notified so they can start charging higher property taxes etc. It seems it is all about the money sometimes but in my area we do take the inspections seriously.


  31. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    26,243

    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colton Johnson View Post
    No arguement on the statement but the work grandfathered is not in the code book and that was the point I was making.
    Agreed.

    However, I was responding to your statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by Colton Johnson View Post
    We have no grandfather claus in any of our code books.
    And the code section I posted effectively serves as a grandfather clause, whether or not the word "grandfather" is in it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  32. #32
    Colton Johnson's Avatar
    Colton Johnson Guest

    Default Re: ever seen this?

    We stay away for that grandfather word usage. It contains to many headaches to deal with. We also do not use intrinsically safe for the same reasons.

    Both those words can lead a contractor down the garden path to many problems.


  33. #33
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: ever seen this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colton Johnson View Post
    We stay away for that grandfather word usage. It contains to many headaches to deal with. We also do not use intrinsically safe for the same reasons.

    Both those words can lead a contractor down the garden path to many problems.
    CJ: And that is why I put quotation marks around the word "grandfathered" in my original quote. It is correctly used in the common parlance, but is nowhere to be found in the codes, though it's meaning is clearly conveyed, as JP so often points out here.

    As to your comment that "I must be a bit looney", I disagree. Sounds like to me you are just passionate as hell about what you do. Nothing wrong with that. Never was. Never will be.


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