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  1. #1
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    Default CSST all the way to the heater

    There are several things about this I don't like and several things that are wrong. But I would like to know if there is a requirement (maybe manufacturer) about using hard pipe to get outside of the appliance before using the CSST.

    As always, thanks for the help and advice.

    Bruce

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Isn't that a regular flex connector going into the furnace, and not CSST? It looks bad either way, but worse if it's a standard connector.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Hmmmm....I don't know. Since they're both yellow, how can you tell. Normally the standard connectors I see are grey in color.

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
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    Home Inspections in the Tyler and East Texas area

  4. #4
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    My understanding is that iron pipe should be used to route the gas line through the knockout on the side of the furnace cabinet, then a flex line can be attached once inside the cabinet area.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    There are several things about this I don't like and several things that are wrong. But I would like to know if there is a requirement (maybe manufacturer) about using hard pipe to get outside of the appliance before using the CSST. As always, thanks for the help and advice. Bruce
    Bruce,

    First pic shows CSST, a gas valve and a flexible gas connector. Second pic shows the flex connector running through the cabinet. You are correct, the penetration through the cabinet should be iron pipe. Flex is not allowed.

    IRC: 2422.1.2.3
    UPC: 1212.1

    Are the CSST and valve in the first pic secured to the framing?

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    No, the valve is "free floating" in the atmosphere (another of the things I called out)

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
    www.TylerHomeInspector.com
    Home Inspections in the Tyler and East Texas area

  7. #7
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    Cool Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    You can penetrate the cabinet with CSST if there is a grommet. You cannot penetrate the cabinet with a 'flexible appliance connector', which is what this is.

    I don't see the sediment trap and ground union. They could have run CSST to within 6ft of the appliance valve, shutoff directly onto black iron pipe sed. trap tee to union through cabinet to valve. They could fix an iron sed. trap with shutoff and run CSSt off the snout directly to the valve but you would have to find a way to support the trap and shutoff.

    It is easier and better all around if there is black iron through the cabinet with a union to tee of sed. trap with shutoff above then CSST from above. Proper supports per listing.

    What is plugged into that duplex outlet? I hope it isn't the furnace! Should be a GFCI outlet within 25ft of appliance with decking for access. Is there decking under that snowdrift?
    HTH,
    Bob

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  8. #8
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    I am just waiting until I see the first CSST sediment trap. It should not be long.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Here's agood link to read up on CSST installation.

    http://www.gastite.com/include/langu...8_DI_Guide.pdf


  10. #10
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Speaking of sediment traps: I spoke to a gas company representative the other day (25 year man). He had never seen one installed in our city. He said the city doesn't require it nor does the gas company.

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Speaking of sediment traps: I spoke to a gas company representative the other day (25 year man). He had never seen one installed in our city. He said the city doesn't require it nor does the gas company.
    It's the same here but I write it up every time because I don't want to give the Mfg. a free "Get out of jail card". Not an expensive thing to do and customers understand when I explain.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Speaking of sediment traps: I spoke to a gas company representative the other day (25 year man). He had never seen one installed in our city. He said the city doesn't require it nor does the gas company.
    Yeah, but ... but the code REQUIRES those dang things.



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  13. #13
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Speaking of sediment traps: I spoke to a gas company representative the other day (25 year man). He had never seen one installed in our city. He said the city doesn't require it nor does the gas company.
    JB: Just another example of East Texas selective code enforcement.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    ...Should be a GFCI outlet within 25ft of appliance...
    Bob - Is the GFCI requirement new? Is there a specific reason for a GFCI in an attic HVAC installation?

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Bob - Is the GFCI requirement new? Is there a specific reason for a GFCI in an attic HVAC installation?

    Not Bob, but ...

    The GFCI requirement is for all outdoor receptacles, including those installed for servicing HVAC equipment, whether on the ground, on cantilevered platforms from the walls, or on the roof.

    The GFCI requirement does not apply to receptacles in attic.

    And, even if the receptacle in the attic was GFCI protected, there would be nothing wrong with plugging in the furnace - provided the furnace was listed and labeled for that use and there was a cord and plug set listed for that use (I am not aware of a built-in appliance - furnace, air handler, water heater - which is listed for use with a cord and plug, they all need to be permanently wired into the electrical system). If the GFCI trips, that means there is a problem somewhere, which would indicate a problem with the appliance which is plugged in.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  16. #16
    Nolan Kienitz's Avatar
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Speaking of sediment traps: I spoke to a gas company representative the other day (25 year man). He had never seen one installed in our city. He said the city doesn't require it nor does the gas company.
    JB - Gas companie's span of control stops with the gas meter. The IRC dictates the gas distribution from the meter to the appliances. The IRC has the requirement for sediment traps at appliances (furnaces, water heaters).

    Now local city code gurus can accept/reject anything they want, but they should also have their "exclusions" posted so that other (like us) can see what they are actually requiring or not. In the case of the City of Frisco that stack of paperwork can get to be rather tall.

    Many of us have been lobbying the local city folks about the sediment traps in particular for well over many, many years. Just the past six months several of the local munis are now requiring that sediment traps be installed. When I see them now I'm rather taken aback and have to take a picture for the "wow ... it's here" file.

    I call out all missing sediment traps ... another interesting note is that several of my recent clients have dug in and made the seller get them installed. I guess they are listening to me.

    Slight drift now ... but I saw an SEP that actually had all the branch wiring brought into the panel and was well distributed through the top access knockouts. Usually virtually all the branch wiring is jammed through one hole in the top and then when you get into a de-rating conversation with the electrician he just glazes over as he has no clue what you are talking about. Oh well. One step at a time.


  17. #17
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    Smile Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Bob - Is the GFCI requirement new? Is there a specific reason for a GFCI in an attic HVAC installation?
    To the letter of the NEC, a GFCI is not per se required in an attic:

    210.63 Heating, Air-Conditioning, and Refrigeration
    Equipment Outlet. A 125-volt, single-phase, 15- or 20-ampere-rated receptacle outlet shall be installed at an accessible location for the servicing of heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle shall be located on the same level and within 7.5 m (25 ft) of the heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnecting means. Where an indoor receptacle is intended for the servicing of outdoor equipment, it shall have GFCI protection for personnel.

    However, I'm also tying in the OSHA requirement for workers to use GFCI protection and since this outlet is dedicated to a serviceman, I feel there is justification. You don't have to have water around to justify a GFCI.

    Once installed, nobody is going to change it except maybe a wayward HVAC tech and I'm sure doesn't HAVE to be in a H.I. report but I still like to point these things out as a "good idea".

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  18. #18
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    and then when you get into a . . . conversation with the electrician he just glazes over as he has no clue what you are talking about.
    NK: That is their default mode, my friend.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: CSST all the way to the heater

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    You can penetrate the cabinet with CSST if there is a grommet. You cannot penetrate the cabinet with a 'flexible appliance connector', which is what this is.

    I don't see the sediment trap and ground union. They could have run CSST to within 6ft of the appliance valve, shutoff directly onto black iron pipe sed. trap tee to union through cabinet to valve. They could fix an iron sed. trap with shutoff and run CSSt off the snout directly to the valve but you would have to find a way to support the trap and shutoff.

    It is easier and better all around if there is black iron through the cabinet with a union to tee of sed. trap with shutoff above then CSST from above. Proper supports per listing.

    What is plugged into that duplex outlet? I hope it isn't the furnace! Should be a GFCI outlet within 25ft of appliance with decking for access. Is there decking under that snowdrift?
    HTH,
    Bob
    It is the furnace plugged into the outlet. I've spoken with a Trane rep before and they allow this. The GFCI requirement is news to me. The decking did just stop at the outlet.

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
    www.TylerHomeInspector.com
    Home Inspections in the Tyler and East Texas area

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