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  1. #1
    Lew Frye's Avatar
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    Default Inspectors responsibility?

    This regards a bank REO purchased by my client.

    I recently inspected a central AC/heating system as part of a whole house inspect prior to the closing of the sale. The air handler was set up for a heat pump system, the thermostat was for a heat pump system. The supplementary heat was a 5 KW. All these items indicated a heat pump system. Unfortunately, even though the home was only 5 years old, unknown to me the condensor was replaced 2 years ago and a straight cool condensor was installed. It was warm when we inspected the property. The AC worked properly and the heat seemed to work properly when turned on by checking the temperature of the supply air. We did not go outside to see if the compressor came on in the heat mode and we did not look down inside the condensor to see the (I think they are called exchange valves). Later we found out there were none because it was a straight cool condensor.

    The bank did not disclose the condensor change out and neither did the Realtor. Now the owner feels like I owe them a heat pump condensor since I noted on the report that the home had a heat pump system.

    Has anyone faced this situation that could help me?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Frye View Post
    This regards a bank REO purchased by my client.

    I recently inspected a central AC/heating system as part of a whole house inspect prior to the closing of the sale. The air handler was set up for a heat pump system, the thermostat was for a heat pump system. The supplementary heat was a 5 KW. All these items indicated a heat pump system. Unfortunately, even though the home was only 5 years old, unknown to me the condensor was replaced 2 years ago and a straight cool condensor was installed. It was warm when we inspected the property. The AC worked properly and the heat seemed to work properly when turned on by checking the temperature of the supply air. We did not go outside to see if the compressor came on in the heat mode and we did not look down inside the condensor to see the (I think they are called exchange valves). Later we found out there were none because it was a straight cool condensor.

    The bank did not disclose the condensor change out and neither did the Realtor. Now the owner feels like I owe them a heat pump condensor since I noted on the report that the home had a heat pump system.

    Has anyone faced this situation that could help me?
    First, it is not the banks responsibility to disclose something that they did not know about.
    Second the Realtor has no reason to doubt that the system is not a heatpump or that anything was changed on it. This is the job of the home inspector.

    Why did you not look to see if the compressor was running when you did the inspection? This should always be done with a heatpump system. Basically they now have a conventional A/C and electric furnace.

    I would have my own HAVC person go and take a look at the unit. Get them to tell me what needs to be done and then I would make the repair. An expensive lesson, but one that you will never forget.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 01-05-2010 at 04:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    I always go hang my head over the unit through each cycle for the heat pump to be sure it's putting out the right thing. It's low tech but works.

    As for your situation, it will likely cost you something. I would definitely go try to work something out with your client. This something would be well short of buying them a new heat pump. Without knowing the parties involved it seems like your client is a bit of an opportunist. Would they really have not bought the house if it didn't have a heat pump? The bank certainly wouldn't have put one in so there's no lost chance to negotiate.

    I'd start by pointing out to them the limitations outlined in the contract they signed (I'm assuming you have a limitation of liability clause of some sort?). Since they seem to want to focus on what's printed in your report I'd certainly point out what's printed in what they signed.

    With stuff like this I try to do my best to negotiate something but will usually give in before they file a complaint against me with the state (my licensing agency).


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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Lew - You told them they were getting a heat pump. Time to bite the bullet and get out the checkbook.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    I agree with Scott and John, time to get out the checkbook.
    At risk of raising the ire of the anti everything zealots, I'll share this proverb and let you find out where it is from if you chose: "The righteous man swears to his own hurt, and changes not." Texan translation: your word is your bond even when it hurts. It is just the right thing to do.
    I would at least be offering a refund of my fee.

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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    I have simple questions in my report that force me to go find the heat pump, Make, RLA, Min amps, disconnect? If I couldn't answer those questions, there'd be no mention of a heat pump in my report.

    If you have E+O insurance, the next step would be to get your lawyer involved I think.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    All received with humility. I felt the same. Just was interested in peer comments.


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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Lew,

    It takes guts to come out in public with stuff like this. My hat is off to you. I'm sure you won't make the same mistake again.

    Your posting will also help many others (like me) by reminding them how simple mistakes can be costly.

    I hope to see you contributing more to this forum.


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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Just playing devil's advocate here..... For those of you advocating buying a heat pump, where does it end?

    Say you mistakenly write down 2X6 wall framing instead of 2X4. Are you supposed to rebuild the house?


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Thanks for all your comments and encouragement and humor. Will really try to be on the lookout for those 2 X 6 mistakes!


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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Matt,

    This is why I say we shouldn't add fluff to reports if your SOP's does not call for things to be noted such as you mentioned 2x4 framing compared to 2x6 for example.

    Most clients could really care less about things as such.

    Basically what they want to know is, What works and what doesnt'?

    Here's another situation I had to deal with today. I had an inspection on a home at the request of the homeowner and their attorney. They had their home on the market but lost the sale due to a previous home in$pection report. I had the opportunity to see this other inspector report after mine had been issued this evening.

    This guy had everything mentioned on his report as "Operating as Intended" but still recommended that a Plumber, Electrician, Structural Engineer, Roofer all do further evaluations cause he was not a "professional" in all of these fields.

    The previous buyer backed out of the deal thinking that maybe there was issues there that the inspector was trying to hide behind instead of disclosing them on the report. Now the sellers wants to sue him for the lost sale of their home.

    Why does everyone recommend further evaluations of everything? Isn't that what we're being paid to do? If its broke, say it should be repaired. If its working, just say it was working at the time of the inspection and move on.

    The house in question is only a 1.5yr. old.

    This will be a interesting one to find out the results on.

    rick


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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    When I inspect heat pumps I operate them in both heat pump mode and in emergency heat mode (electric furnace only). I make sure the outside condenser is running smoothly and that the copper line is nice and hot. When I operate in emergency heat mode I make sure the outside condenser is not running and that the vents are putting out heat from the electric furnace.


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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    fwiw.... I don't designate between 2X4 & 2X6 framing.... it's just the most expensive thing I could think of to make my point.

    And I totally agree about putting useless stuff in the report. Bare minimum as far as 'specs' is best. There's no upside as 99.9% of the people don't care.

    To drift a bit, this whole idea of sellers sueing inspectors over a deal gone south is an interesting one. I seem to be hearing of it a lot more over the last year or so than I ever did before. Leave it to the attorneys to find a new avenue to some insurance money.

    Maybe it will cause the pendulum to swing a bit back towards center and stop some of the alarmists amongst us. A lot of reports I read just make me scratch my head and wonder what the inspector actually DID do since there're 30 pages of fine print explaing what he didn't.


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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Frye View Post
    All received with humility. I felt the same. Just was interested in peer comments.
    Hold on. I just read the post again. I see you are saying there was no visual evidence of an alteration to the heat pump. You are not an HVAC technician, and you were not obliged to remove covers, etc.

    The weather at the time of the insp. was unfavorable for testing the heat pump.
    Judge:"Would you normally test the function of the heat pump in such a manner?" "I performed the inspection in my normal manner".
    There were no visual indications that the unit had been altered.
    Running in and out of the house with the heat on was not practical. Not your clients' house yet, so there's restraints to overheating the place. In fact, you said you detected some heat and moved on. We have all been there. This could happen to anybody.
    It "appeared to be" a heat pump, visual inspection.

    You should get legal help, but don't be so quick to cough up cash for a heat pump they didn't buy.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 01-05-2010 at 10:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Just playing devil's advocate here..... For those of you advocating buying a heat pump, where does it end?

    Say you mistakenly write down 2X6 wall framing instead of 2X4. Are you supposed to rebuild the house?
    That is why you put a limit of liability in your contract and have E&O, to cover yourself for the times you screw up.
    That is also why I take longer than most others both inspecting and writing the report. I readily admit I am an anal type.
    Heck, I have driven all the way back to a house on more than one occasion when I realized I had not seen something.
    As far as "where does it end", I have a million dollar E&O and general liability but I have refunded a total of $135 since 1995 when I started and repaired one ceiling for about the same amount.
    As Dave Ramsey says, I count both of those as "stupid tax" and learned not to do those things again.
    The two things are 1) never, ever, trust a realtor to deliver a report, and 2) use a 3 point stance in attics with your feet perpendicular to the rafters to keep from straddling a ceiling joist!
    I hope I am finished paying "stupid tax".

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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Matt,

    This is why I say we shouldn't add fluff to reports if your SOP's does not call for things to be noted such as you mentioned 2x4 framing compared to 2x6 for example.

    So if the house is only a year old and the wall framing is 2 x 4 you wouldn't mention it in your report?


    Most clients could really care less about things as such.

    Basically what they want to know is, What works and what doesnt'?

    Here's another situation I had to deal with today. I had an inspection on a home at the request of the homeowner and their attorney. They had their home on the market but lost the sale due to a previous home in$pection report. I had the opportunity to see this other inspector report after mine had been issued this evening.

    This guy had everything mentioned on his report as "Operating as Intended" but still recommended that a Plumber, Electrician, Structural Engineer, Roofer all do further evaluations cause he was not a "professional" in all of these fields. That inspector is claiming that he has no right to be a home inspector.

    The previous buyer backed out of the deal thinking that maybe there was issues there that the inspector was trying to hide behind instead of disclosing them on the report. Now the sellers wants to sue him for the lost sale of their home.

    Why does everyone recommend further evaluations of everything? Isn't that what we're being paid to do? If its broke, say it should be repaired. If its working, just say it was working at the time of the inspection and move on. Because most home inspectors are not licensed HVAC techs, electricians, plumbers etc. If we determine a system is working, but not working properly, such as an a/c unit with incorrect temperature differences, who are we to say if can be repaired or needs to be replaced? A home inspector can be held responsible if they call for repairs on a system only to find later that they system needs to be replaced.

    The house in question is only a 1.5yr. old.

    This will be a interesting one to find out the results on.

    rick
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Frye View Post
    This regards a bank REO purchased by my client.

    I recently inspected a central AC/heating system as part of a whole house inspect prior to the closing of the sale. The air handler was set up for a heat pump system, the thermostat was for a heat pump system. The supplementary heat was a 5 KW. All these items indicated a heat pump system. Unfortunately, even though the home was only 5 years old, unknown to me the condensor was replaced 2 years ago and a straight cool condensor was installed. It was warm when we inspected the property. The AC worked properly and the heat seemed to work properly when turned on by checking the temperature of the supply air. We did not go outside to see if the compressor came on in the heat mode and we did not look down inside the condensor to see the (I think they are called exchange valves). Later we found out there were none because it was a straight cool condensor.

    The bank did not disclose the condensor change out and neither did the Realtor. Now the owner feels like I owe them a heat pump condensor since I noted on the report that the home had a heat pump system.

    Has anyone faced this situation that could help me?
    When I look at the exterior unit I check for the age of the unit. House 5 years old and the unit is 2. I would be asking questions.

    I always look to see if it has a reversing valve. Some unit have heat pump wrote on the data tag.


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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    So if the house is only a year old and the wall framing is 2 x 4 you wouldn't mention it in your report?
    How do you determine if a wall is 2x6 framing? My walls are 2x4 framing with 2" of polyiso (to reduce thermal bridging) giving it the appearance of 2x6 framing. To make it more difficult, the trimmers around windows and doors actually are 2x6.

    Also, it's my understanding that the requirement for 2x6 framing is for energy efficiency, not structural enhancement. Do you assume there are fiberglass batts in the 2x4 wall (R-13 or R-15 maybe) rather than closed cell foam spray insulation (R-21 aged) in that 1 year old house or do you check for insulation type as well? Just curious...

    Last edited by Corn Walker; 01-06-2010 at 08:07 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corn Walker View Post
    How do you determine if a wall is 2x6 framing? My walls are 2x4 framing with 2" of polyiso (to reduce thermal bridging) giving it the appearance of 2x6 framing. To make it more difficult, the trimmers around windows and doors actually are 2x6.

    Also, it's my understanding that the requirement for 2x6 framing is for energy efficiency, not structural enhancement. Do you assume there are fiberglass batts in the 2x4 wall (R-13 or R-15 maybe) rather than closed cell foam spray insulation (R-21 aged) in that 1 year old house or do you check for insulation type as well? Just curious...
    To answer both of your questions they key is accessibility. If the basement or crawlspace isn't finished the size of the wall framing can be determined. The same goes for wall insulation type. And yes, I do comment on the type and amount of insulation that can be viewed. However, if it can't be determined because it's finished my reports state it.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    For what it is worth I agree with some a little bit and some a lot a bit.


    Inside the home I am absolutely sure it was not hotter than the highest setting on the thermostat....period. Maybe if the home was vacant and had not been entered in days and windows were cracked a bit to let the heat and humidity in then maybe the heat inside was above the thermostats highest setting.

    You turn the heat on with a heat pump or any setting and you go outside and check the unit. There is no reason not to.

    As far as the advertising and marketing go and what is in my report I totally agree with the no fluff crap. In all my marketing I tell anyone getting it that I strongly believe in "No Fluff, No Hype, No Baloney"

    As far as the limited liability....That won't cut it at all. There is no reason what so ever not to check the heat pump in heat mode or AC mode. I can hear it now. Well, I kind of, sort of, well maybe, I guess it was working all right. After all it was only 95 outside but there was hot air blowing out of the vents Not picking on anyone. Just trying to express the point.

    Someone mentioned above that they, and more than one time, drive back to check something that they did not have a clear recollection of. I cannot tell you how many times I have done that. Whats that sahying...."When in doubt"

    Rick sounds like he stole my advertising.

    Oh yeah.....I have never missed anything....ever....I think!

    Last week I was so intent on finding something inside the home for evidence for termites in this one room and around the window and corner and ceiling and baseboard because of 2 monster termite tubes outside that I did not see a cracked window on that wall until I went home to review everything and saw it in the picture of the front of the home. Like I said. I never missed anything...ever...I think! Big window with a rounded top..all one piece...would have been hundreds


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Make a "miss call", and then write a check? Not so fast.

    Heat working like it should? Check.
    A/C working like it should? Check
    Then its all good. OK, I get it that you may have called a moose a cow, but if the systems are working, then I'm not so sure there is really a foul.
    Yeah, I get that it wasn't exactly a stellar inspection job (not checking the outside unit on heat mode), but it is what it is. The HVAC system is working OK.

    As far as using E&O. I know that mine only kicks in after I have been notified I am being sued. Any my deductible is more than a heat pump repair anyway.

    As far as being able to see wall stud size in a crawlspace or basement - not sure how I could do that, since the wall studs are not visible in platform framing.

    If I made a mistake and called out copper plumbing and it was galvanized, or CPVC, I would not take out my checkbook to re-plumb a house (as long as I covered all of the conditions correctly).

    Marking descriptions in reports can be a mouse click or a check box off, and people can make typo's. Most SOP's only require that we call out the energy source, not the "type" of system it is. I have had several "heat pump" systems that had a gas furnace installed as the "emergency heat" source.


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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    To answer both of your questions they key is accessibility. If the basement or crawlspace isn't finished the size of the wall framing can be determined. The same goes for wall insulation type. And yes, I do comment on the type and amount of insulation that can be viewed. However, if it can't be determined because it's finished my reports state it.
    Funny you should mention that. The crawl space under the room in question is framed with 2x8s. Don't ask me - I didn't do it.

    I guess getting back to the 2x4 vs 2x6 thing on a new house, it seems like the best one can say is "wall appears to be framed using 2x4 material - insulation performance may not meet current standards" which satisfies, I think, the only reason for calling it out (unless it's a wall on a 3+ story structure but that's another thing entirely). I'm not sure I would positively state something is 2x4 or 2x6 unless I can actually see the 2x4 or 2x6 framing in question. I saw a builder picking up a bundle of 2x3s the other day - don't know what he was going to use them for but lord forbid some inspector comes in after him and states positively the wall was 2x4 when in fact it was 2x3 sandwiched between 1/2" insulation.

    Could it be then that the resolution to most of these types of problems with reports reduce to a set of simple axioms:

    • Report only what you see.
    • Don't speculate.
    • If there's something you tried to see but couldn't, report why.



  23. #23
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    Make a "miss call", and then write a check? Not so fast.

    Heat working like it should? Check.
    A/C working like it should? Check
    Then its all good. OK, I get it that you may have called a moose a cow, but if the systems are working, then I'm not so sure there is really a foul.
    Yeah, I get that it wasn't exactly a stellar inspection job (not checking the outside unit on heat mode), but it is what it is. The HVAC system is working OK.

    As far as using E&O. I know that mine only kicks in after I have been notified I am being sued. Any my deductible is more than a heat pump repair anyway.

    As far as being able to see wall stud size in a crawlspace or basement - not sure how I could do that, since the wall studs are not visible in platform framing.

    If I made a mistake and called out copper plumbing and it was galvanized, or CPVC, I would not take out my checkbook to re-plumb a house (as long as I covered all of the conditions correctly).

    Marking descriptions in reports can be a mouse click or a check box off, and people can make typo's. Most SOP's only require that we call out the energy source, not the "type" of system it is. I have had several "heat pump" systems that had a gas furnace installed as the "emergency heat" source.


    Thats because the builders use to get a credit back then for alternitive heat sources. I never new that and I built many a home. There would be a heat pump outside and a gas fired forced hot air unit inside. The first time I ever ran into it on an inspection had me scratching my head. It turned out that they never had the gas turned on and the heat pump never came on so I could not tell them if the heat worked anyway. Everything physically checked out on the units. In checking further I did find the wires to the gas fired unit for the heat call. Even though I did find that it was hooked up for gas I still called it out to be evaluated after the gas was on and to also have the heat pump checked out for proper operation.

    Anyway, no matter how you look at it......Go outside in both heating and cooling modes and check the operation of the unit. Do not just feel for hot or cold air.

    As far as the systems working???????? They were not. No heat was being created. It was just the blower blowing.



  24. #24
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Ted, I think Lew said the unit was putting out heat (felt it at the registers).

    Or, were you talking about the unit you inspected with the gas off?


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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    a/c = condenser unit blowing hot air out as it is a "heat pump" pumping heat out of the house ... taking "heat" out of the house and blowing it outside off the outdoor coil

    heat pump = condenser unit blowing cold air out as it is a "heat pump" pumping heat into the house ... taking "heat" out of the outdoor air and blowing it inside off the indoor coil

    Whenever I ran into a heat pump unit, I would check to make sure the condenser unit was operating and blowing cold air. If it was not operating, the heat was being produced by electric resistance heat.

    On more than one occasion I found an outdoor unit blowing hot air while blowing warm air at the registers, which meant that the a/c was operating on cooling at the same time as the electric strips putting off heat.

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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    Ted, I think Lew said the unit was putting out heat (felt it at the registers).

    Or, were you talking about the unit you inspected with the gas off?

    Hmm

    I read it as it was warm out and the air blowing out of the supply was warm as well. I did not read it was putting out heat. Obviously if the heat pump (for what ever reason) was changed out to just an AC condenser then the supply was not blowing heat because of a heat pump but because of electric heat. It still all says (pardon the directness) he screwed up by not checking the unit outside during the heat mode. If he did he would have checked further and found what it was really all about. The least he would have done (and actually be messing up some more was saying that the heat pump was not operating during heat mode so it mus be the back up heating strips that were heating the home. No matter how you look at it.....He done an oops or would have compounded the oops but explaining something further that was not happening.

    At some point, like me almost missing (did at the inspection) the broken/cracked window, you have to stop making excuses for yourself (like I do) and say it was an outright mistake. Technically I did not screw up even though that window was cracked and I even opened that window because I found it with my review as I review all when I get back to the house. I caught it with a picture.

    I paid for a service call to have the stat wires hooked up from the inside unit to the heat pump (one of the units) because even though I checked the unit and it was working I did not get a good picture (which I always do) of all connections to the inside and outside unit. The sellers moved out and when they moved their stored goods near the attic unit the wire got pulled out. I could not prove other than my word that the unit was working even though I wrote up the function of the systems. Instead of losing future biz from the client and Realtor I put out 150.

    Funny... I still lost the Realtor because she said I was to picky and did not need to write such detail about items in need of repair. Go figure. Put out money even though I was right (but I did not have a picture of that particular connection) and a few inspections later lose the Realtor because I was too detailed.

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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    The heat pump situation is a oooppps. Opening the service panel is all that is needed to tell somebody if that unit is a heat pump or just an air conditioning unit (I know, both condition air, but most if not all know what I'm talking about).

    If you are going to pay, there is a good chance only the outside unit will need to be replaced. That should save you some money and your clients will still be made more than whole.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    If this equipment was changed out after the house was built the local mechanical inspector should have inspected the equipment. Contact the mechanical inspector to find out if it has been inspected. He has legal authority to deal with changed equipment done without a permit. He can force the equipment to be made right by the mechanical contractor who did the work or by the previous homeowner. Once his blessing is given this should take the pressure off of you as you are not an HVAC expert.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Winchester View Post
    If this equipment was changed out after the house was built the local mechanical inspector should have inspected the equipment. Contact the mechanical inspector to find out if it has been inspected. He has legal authority to deal with changed equipment done without a permit. He can force the equipment to be made right by the mechanical contractor who did the work or by the previous homeowner. Once his blessing is given this should take the pressure off of you as you are not an HVAC expert.
    BW: Thank you for the first rational post on this thread. Any inspector who would pay for mechanical equipment under the original poster's circumstances is simply not considering all of his options.


  30. #30
    Bob Winchester's Avatar
    Bob Winchester Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    I might see things a bit differently than some of the others here since I have been a registered electrical and mechanical inspector for over 20 years in Michigan. I'm used to dealing with what is legal and what is not, what is enforceable and what is not.


  31. #31
    Michael Greenwalt's Avatar
    Michael Greenwalt Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Did I miss something or are you saying that there was not any heat in the home? The heat pump was pulled but no method of heating the home was subsequently installed?

    I disclaim operation a heat pump in heat mode if the exerior ambient temperature is above 65 degrees. This is discussed with the client so that they are fully aware and have a reasonable level of expectation. The unit can still be operated on emergency mode however to verify operation of that component.


  32. #32
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
    Stacey Van Houtan Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Don't write the check yet.

    Several things to consider

    1 The reversing valve is not always visible in the condensing Unit,
    2 On Heat pumps with elec. backup the elements can be stairstepped to come on one at a time adding one as the temp drops and the HP is assisted. So both the strip heat and the HP will run at the same time
    3 Never reverse the mode in a HP sytems during a HI, In my opinion the time to let the pressure equilize is not within the time frame of a normal HP portion of a home ispection.


    These reasons give you some argument,

    This has happend more than one, as someone said the Builder may have got the rebate but paid for AC only or the owner saved some money if the unit went bad.


  33. #33
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
    Ron Bibler Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by john christine View Post
    Hello everyone,
    I want to hire an Certified home inspector and many friends of mine suggest me to hire home inspector from Certified Home Inspector for Home Inspection Service in Torrance, Manhattan Beach site! So can you please check the site and can you suggest me about hiring the home inspector in reasonable price!
    If your friends say he s the man then you should call the man up an get to work on your inspection. You should ask him aout his Infrared inspection program...

    Big Termite problems in theat areas of So Cal. Give Gold Coast Pest Control a call. Ask for David Perrier.

    Best

    Ron


  34. #34
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by john christine View Post
    Hello everyone,
    I want to hire an Certified home inspector and many friends of mine suggest me to hire home inspector from Certified Home Inspector for Home Inspection Service in Torrance, Manhattan Beach site! So can you please check the site and can you suggest me about hiring the home inspector in reasonable price!
    JC: It appears that the HI in question has no meaningful certifications other than his ASHI membership. You might want to look further and find someone with an ICC R-5 certification. They actually know something about houses.


  35. #35
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by john christine View Post
    Hello everyone,
    I want to hire an Certified home inspector and many friends of mine suggest me to hire home inspector from Certified Home Inspector for Home Inspection Service in Torrance, Manhattan Beach site! So can you please check the site and can you suggest me about hiring the home inspector in reasonable price!
    If your friends recommended him than there must be past experiences from them with that home inspector.

    Don't listen to the man above this post. He is a little drunk on himself

    If this inspector has half those inspections behind them and he is recommended by others than go for it.

    Having ICC R-5 certifications are a lot of hype and fluff other than being close to quoting tidbits from the codes. Yes they have a "deeper" knowledge of codes which most of the time are not needed and most of those folks with certifications disagree with one another anyway over the interpretation of those codes (that is the most sincere statement I have made so far). Home inspectors take countless hours of continuing ed over there working years to keep them abreast on the changing in codes. Most of them have to look things up half the time (most of the time to get it straight) but most inspectors know more than enough and then some after thousands of inspections behind them. The man recommended has inspected thousands of homes with all those HVAC systems, framing, water heaters, electrical work.

    Could your man that was recommended be a lousy inspector???? Could be. Doubt it but that is just as possible as the fact that many folks with ICC certifications have been to court over time for things they have missed....I have not and have been doing this for decades. Who knows. Maybe I am just lucky, OR, maybe i am just not so much into myself that I know I have faults and put my all into every inspection. No I do not have ICC r-5 certification. I know several that do that have been raked through the courts by doing there so knowledgeable ICC certification inspections (and still screwing up and of course there is the running into the client that wants everyone else to pay for there short comings. know people that were taken to court over missing screens....like the buyer could not see the windows when walking around the outside of the home.

    Go for your recommended inspector. I have decided he is a good man and decent inspector

    Your home inspection involves much more than codes when being inspected. The vast majority of it is have a good eye and the rest is knowing how things should be and what may be wrong with them or the installation.


  36. #36
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    If this inspector has half those inspections behind them and he is recommended by others than go for it.
    TM: That's right, the common schmuck on the street is somehow uniquely endowed with the knowledge of what a qualified inspector is. Did you just dig that out of a fortune cookie?

    Having ICC R-5 certifications are a lot of hype and fluff other than being close to quoting tidbits from the codes.
    TM: And you would know this how? Mr. no-creds himself has spoken. We hear you loud and clear.

    Home inspectors take countless hours of continuing ed over there working years to keep them abreast on the changing in codes.
    TM: Most of those CEUs are being taught (locally) by the perennial, politically-inclined gadflies who have at least one vested interest in teaching the classes. The only decent ones among them are ICC-certified.

    most inspectors know more than enough and then some after thousands of inspections behind them.
    TM: This is a crock. Logical fallacies such as those of the ad populum variety may sound valid to you and your lowest-common-denominator audience, but they are false all the same.

    Any inspector that has no way concrete method of illustrating to his prospective clients (or his peers) that he is knowledgeable has a need to blow massive amounts of hot air; claim a popular political proclivity; appeal to the religious beliefs of his listeners; and denigrate those few who worked hard for and actually obtained the credentials necessary to at least appear credible.

    I'd call you all hat and no cattle, but you're an immigrant here, so you don't even deserve that much credit. Besides, with you, it is likely a gimme cap - worn ass-backward.

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  37. #37
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    TM: That's right, the common schmuck on the street is somehow uniquely endowed with the knowledge of what a qualified inspector is. Did you just dig that out of a fortune cookie?



    TM: And you would know this how? Mr. no-creds himself has spoken. We hear you loud and clear.



    TM: Most of those CEUs are being taught (locally) by the perennial, politically-inclined gadflies who have at least one vested interest in teaching the classes. The only decent ones among them are ICC-certified.



    TM: This is a crock. Logical fallacies such as those of the ad populum variety may sound valid to you and your lowest-common-denominator audience, but they are false all the same.

    Any inspector that has no way concrete method of illustrating to his prospective clients (or his peers) that he is knowledgeable has a need to blow massive amounts of hot air; claim a popular political proclivity; appeal to the religious beliefs of his listeners; and denigrate those few who worked hard for and actually obtained the credentials necessary to at least appear credible.

    I'd call you all hat and no cattle, but you're an immigrant here, so you don't even deserve that much credit. Besides, with you, it is likely a gimme cap - worn ass-backward.
    Whats a matterr credential boy. You cannot take what you dish out. Why is it that you crank it out so well and insult almost every in spector on here and then you cannot take it back yourself. I think you just might have a little self estime issue going on there.

    The man she got referred to might just be a fantastic inspector.
    To be a freaking complete ignoramus and make a statement like "You might want to look further and find someone with an ICC R-5 certification. They actually know something about houses." really shows you well. Like I said, just a little into yourself.

    I do not know what damn planet you live on now but when you come back down to Earth from your self stimulated high, just remember, you insulated most people on this board by making such a stupid statement and that comes from a man that wishes to place himself above the rest. I do not think so. I think that put you in the floor mat position because that is where you stooped to. The little cute comments from time to time is one thing. The just flat out insulating everyone you wish to associate yourself with is another. Why don't you take you little ignorant self to another play ground because I don't play.

    I used to think highly of you for taking the time to learn and get the accreditation from learning (not that it made you any better in the slightest, obviously). One more time you have proven the life long study that when many people get themselves a little badge they want to place themselves over everyone else and be in charge of the play ground. Trust me with this. After you eat that Tex Mex food, it smells the same as everyone else when it comes out the backside.

    You should seriously think about the comments you make and if you don't then expect come backs on the ignorance.

    Oh yeah bright boy. So I guess you take those continuing ed classes that are being tough by totally useless folks that mean absolutely nothing to you and then after you leave those classes you go home and write in your little note book what a completely useless waste bag the teacher was that taught that class. I bet he was not worthy of shining your shoes. You sure could a taught him a thing or 2.

    The red highlight above

    Yes Sir, that be you. Took those tests to appear credible so you could pat your little backside all the way home and look in the mirror knowing you are now above the rest.

    Start talking like a human being home inspector with a decent education instead of trying to sound like so many a books I have read. I hear those books talking to me every time I see you write something. Not imporessive! Especially when you try puting yourself in their shoes. They do not fit. Trust me.

    IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BETTER AND MORE WORTHY MAN.

    Maybe it was the getting raked in court even with all those credentials that tore you up a bit. Wasn't even directed at you but if the shoe fits you know where to put it.

    Oh yeah

    To be the nice guy I am and politically correct in front of the rest of the thousands that read this forum

    That was not for you.

    Think about what you put in front of the thousands. You did not just insult most all that post on this board. You about insulated all of the home inspectors on here and the other thousands that never post.

    That's right. You don't care.

    How about this.

    Me

    "I am sorry Aaron Miller for saying such bad things to stir you up."

    You

    Now it's your turn. Come on. You can do it. It's OK. The thousands are waiting for you to apologize now.

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 02-12-2010 at 11:48 AM.

  38. #38
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    The man she got referred to might just be a fantastic inspector.
    TM: While this is true, I guess we'll never know.

    To be a freaking complete ignoramus
    TM: This is something you would certainly know about.

    you insulated most people on this board
    TM: While that may be true, it is not I who am responsible for the insult. If I tell a man that he put his shirt on backward, he may be insulted that I should be so bold as to point out this deficiency, but I did not put his shirt on for him. So then, if you are alright with schlepping around pretending to be a professional - sans credentials - so be it. Just do not come crying to me that you are insulted because I pointed this out. You are, in fact, not insulted, but rather embarrassed. And you should be.

    a man that wishes to place himself above the rest.
    TM: One must lead by example.

    So I guess you take those continuing ed classes that are being tough by totally useless folks that mean absolutely nothing to you and then after you leave those classes you go home and write in your little note book what a completely useless waste bag the teacher was that taught that class.
    TM: I do most of my CEUs, with the exception of those required by TDA, online. The cost is reasonable and I do not have to endure taking off work and driving to Arlington or Irving in order to be told things that are often just not so by those who should know better, and are merely attempting to sell me something else.

    You don't care.
    TM: If by that, you mean what you think about me, then you are correct.

    Take a chill pill and a nap. You'll feel better.


  39. #39
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    You just don't get it.

    You cannot insult me. A man that does things as yourself can never insult anyone. You have to be an equal or better to insult another.

    As far as embarrassed. Please. Do you really think home inspection is brain surgery. Pretty simple stuff Aaro. Not much to it at all. No matter what book you read and what test you take it is still time that tells the tale.

    My tale tells pretty good. Not once brought to court for anything to do with building, remodeling or inspecting.

    I paid once to a lady that cried to me for needing a new panel even though I told her so just cause I could not take the crying for three months. I paid half.

    I paid only one other time to get an HVAC system hooked back up and tested only to make point because a warranty guy was trying to rip my clients off. Since that date I have had many referrals. It cost me under 150.

    No, nothing else, ever. Happy clients. No embarrassment on my behalf in the slightest. I know what my qualifications are and I do not have to remind myself everyday while looking in the mirror telling myself so.

    From what you say the thousands, multiple, inspectors that are signed on here should be embarrassed with themselves and accomplishments.

    Sounds to me like a pretty long winded, no matter how well worded and directed (sounds like Obama) your statement was.

    I Aaron official insult all you home inspectors out there and you should all be embarrassed with yourself. Now all of you. Go out and get a life.

    You cannot white wash over permanent red marker. That crap will always keep coming thru. Kinda like what I write up on new homes when the bricky snaps a red chalk line on the concrete to get his column square with the home. That red stain is always staring the new home owners in the face for eternity.

    You judge a man by credentials. Credentials do not make a man and vast amount of situations it does not make them better at what they do. (absolute fact)

    Have a wonderful day Mr Aaron. I am going to take my embarrassed self outside and play in the snow.

    Book smart and Worldly stupid. No direct insult to you.


  40. #40
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    From what you say the thousands, multiple, inspectors that are signed on here should be embarrassed
    TM: Embarrassed, perhaps, depending upon their lack of accomplishments. Insulted, perhaps, depending upon their sensibilities.

    You judge a man by credentials.
    TM: No, by his lack thereof.

    Credentials do not make a man
    TM: No, by themselves, they do not. But they are an initial indicator of who I am dealing with.

    Have a wonderful day
    TM: All of my days are wonderful.

    I am going to take my embarrassed self outside and play in the snow.
    TM: Oh, would you . . .


  41. #41
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Ted's Romp in the Snow

    Ted's Romp in the Snow

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  42. #42
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
    chris mcintyre Guest

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    THIS A SPAMMER!!! that has already been removed once.

    Last edited by chris mcintyre; 02-13-2010 at 01:58 PM. Reason: delete quote

  43. #43
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Ted's Romp in the Snow

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Ted's Romp in the Snow

    I had a good laugh at that. I wish I were that witty.

    Thanks

    Now I will have a good day.

    There are several instances where I needed that cartoon


  44. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,246

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by john christine View Post
    Hello everyone,
    I want to hire an Certified home inspector and many friends of mine suggest me to hire home inspector from Certified Home Inspector for Home Inspection Service in Torrance, Manhattan Beach site! So can you please check the site and can you suggest me about hiring the home inspector in reasonable price!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    If your friends say he s the man then you should call the man up an get to work on your inspection. You should ask him aout his Infrared inspection program...

    Big Termite problems in theat areas of So Cal. Give Gold Coast Pest Control a call. Ask for David Perrier.

    Best

    Ron
    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JC: It appears that the HI in question has no meaningful certifications other than his ASHI membership. You might want to look further and find someone with an ICC R-5 certification. They actually know something about houses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    If your friends recommended him than there must be past experiences from them with that home inspector.

    Don't listen to the man above this post. He is a little drunk on himself

    If this inspector has half those inspections behind them and he is recommended by others than go for it.

    Having ICC R-5 certifications are a lot of hype and fluff other than being close to quoting tidbits from the codes. Yes they have a "deeper" knowledge of codes which most of the time are not needed and most of those folks with certifications disagree with one another anyway over the interpretation of those codes (that is the most sincere statement I have made so far). Home inspectors take countless hours of continuing ed over there working years to keep them abreast on the changing in codes. Most of them have to look things up half the time (most of the time to get it straight) but most inspectors know more than enough and then some after thousands of inspections behind them. The man recommended has inspected thousands of homes with all those HVAC systems, framing, water heaters, electrical work.

    Could your man that was recommended be a lousy inspector???? Could be. Doubt it but that is just as possible as the fact that many folks with ICC certifications have been to court over time for things they have missed....I have not and have been doing this for decades. Who knows. Maybe I am just lucky, OR, maybe i am just not so much into myself that I know I have faults and put my all into every inspection. No I do not have ICC r-5 certification. I know several that do that have been raked through the courts by doing there so knowledgeable ICC certification inspections (and still screwing up and of course there is the running into the client that wants everyone else to pay for there short comings. know people that were taken to court over missing screens....like the buyer could not see the windows when walking around the outside of the home.

    Go for your recommended inspector. I have decided he is a good man and decent inspector

    Your home inspection involves much more than codes when being inspected. The vast majority of it is have a good eye and the rest is knowing how things should be and what may be wrong with them or the installation.
    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    THIS A SPAMMER!!! that has already been removed once.

    Guys ... go back and edit your posts to remove his quote, Brian is deleting that guys posts ... NO NEED FOR US to keep his crap posted in our posts.

    Yes, I will be deleting this stuff from this post soon.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  45. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    Quote Originally Posted by arjen20 View Post
    Hi everyone.
    I am new in the Torrance city and need a good home. Could anyone suggest me some website that provide me reliable and affordable equity inspection.

    Torrance Certified Home Inspector
    Moron
    Moronic
    How many ways to say this until you understand?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  46. #46
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Near Philly, Pa.
    Posts
    1,643

    Cool Re: Inspectors responsibility?

    If HIs had to pay for things they used the incorrect terminology on, they'd be buying houses or portions of them all the time. ;-)

    It may serve to undermine the veracity of the inspection at worst but it certainly should not be grounds for buying something you did not damage.

    Let this be a valuable lesson: check the outdoor unit. However, depending upon the season, are you going to run it in both heat and cool? How much time do you allow btw cycles?

    Don't go jumping on hand grenades.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

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