Gas shut off valve location

**Terry Beck** · 07-02-2007, 08:14 PM

Propane fueled Cat I furnace in crawlspace. I was under the impression that the gas shut off valve could NOT be located inside the furnace walls. However in reading the IRC language, I am not sure. How do you interpret the code?????

This is what I see in IRC-2006:

G2420.1.3 (409.1.3) Shutoff valves shall be located in places so as to provide access for operation and shall be installed so as to be protected from damage.

G2420.1.2 (409.1.2) Phohibited locations. Shutoff valves shall be prohibited in concealed locations and furnace plenums.

G2420.5 (409.5) Equpment shutoff valve. Each appliancce shall be provided
with a shutoff valve SEPERATE from the apliance... (caps added by me) ... shall be located in the same room, not further than 6 feet... Such shutoff valves shall be provided with access.

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Richard Rushing · 07-02-2007, 08:18 PM

Hello, Terry.

In my opinion, that shut off valve should be outside the housing and accessible by the owner/ occupant without removal of side panels. Requiring the side panels to be removed prior to shutting off the gas is defeating the purpose of having it "accessible".

Rich

**Jerry Peck** · 07-02-2007, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Terry Beck

G2420.5 (409.5) Equpment shutoff valve. Each appliancce shall be provided with a shutoff valve SEPERATE from the apliance... (caps added by me) ...

I think your "SEPARATE from" pretty much states that it must be, well ... "separate from" "the appliance".

**Bob Harper** · 07-02-2007, 10:58 PM

The whole idea is to locate a shutoff and union so the appliance can be shutoff and removed if need be. While in reality, it really isn't that hard to fish that CSST out of the cabinet if need be, technically, it should be outside the cabinet within 6 feet.

Where's the sediment trap?

The installer probably knew he'd get busted for running a flexible appliance connector through the cabinet so he ran the CSST up to it then used black iron through the cabinet.

So, how is this vented? I see the B-vent coming off the appliance collar.

Is this unit approved for this application (on its side outside the thermal envelope?

**Jerry Peck** · 07-03-2007, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

While in reality, it really isn't that hard to fish that CSST out of the cabinet if need be ...

Bob,

What about the valve, though? (As in that photo.)

Would you be able to remove the valve through the pip-size hole in the cabinet?

If the CSST were run into the cabinet, at least the hole would be larger (to get the CSST connector nut through), then the valve might have a chance of passing through the hole. (Not implying that running the CSST through the cabinet wall is a 'good thing'.)

Jon Randolph · 07-03-2007, 06:26 AM

"G2420.1.2 (409.1.2) Phohibited locations. Shutoff valves shall be prohibited in concealed locations and furnace plenums."

I would consider that a concealed location since it will be concealed with the front cover installed as it should be during normal operation. Also, no one has mentioned the fact that since there are 2 flexible connections at that installation, damage to the connectors could very likely result due to vibrations, external mechanical forces, etc. I would recommend that this be hard piped with black pipe to a point outside of the frunace and the valve be installed at theat point. Also, a drip leg should be installed.

**Bob Harper** · 07-03-2007, 06:44 AM

Jerry, if the hole is large enough, it is a simple matter to remove the screw and pull the plastic knob off the shutoff so it can slip through the hole. We do it all the time with fireplaces. Personally, I would rather see it as shown, just protect the CSST with a grommet. For a service tech, it is much easier to move a flex line than hard pipe. As long as it is protected with a grommet, I don't see a problem with CSST to the valve. I have seen it run to a sediment trap within 6 ft, a shutoff off the tee snout then more CSST to the appliance. This meets all the requirements and makes the unit much more serviceable. It costs about the same.

Technically, "concealed" means having to do damage to permanent construction to get to it. Anytime you can open a hatch, cabinet, panel, etc. using ordinary tools, even if it is 20 screws, then it is not "concealed". You must be able to inspect the fitting, leak test it, and turn wrenches if need be.

Remember, the shutoff is not for emergencies but the service tech.

Since almost all furnaces are setup with the gas entering from the left, its a shame the installer didn't plan on this and lay the unit on the other side to eliminate that candy cane at the valve. Whether piped with black iron, flex connector or CSST directly, that is a lot of pressure drop.

Most furnaces have the gas line entering from the left side, which makes for a sediment trap but also easy removal of the unit. However, if this unit is hard piped, it will be much harder to get it out without the pipe snagging the cabinet as you lift and slide it out.

**Randy Aldering** · 07-03-2007, 08:59 AM

I would agree that this shutoff is in a concealed location. Aside from the installation leaving me wondering about quality of workmanship, it does not appear there is a drip leg in the fuel line feeding this furnace. The coil of NM cable sitting on the cabinet appears to be improper, and the real question that needs to be answered is whether or not this unit is installed properly. This appears to be an updraft unit installed on its side, if the dust, debris, and fingerprints are any indication of its orientation.

**Michael Thomas** · 07-03-2007, 11:41 AM

FWIW, just took a look at several CSST installation manuals, where a valve or drip leg is required, they show it as attached to a hard-piped connection into the appliance:

**Bob Harper** · 07-03-2007, 01:53 PM

IFGC Commentary on Concealed Piping: "
Piping that is located in a concealed location (see Concealed Location)
Concealed Location: A location that cannot be accessed without damaging permanent parts of the building structure or or finish surface. Spaces above, below, or behind readily removable panels or doors shall not be considered as concealed."

Both the NFGC and IFGC require sediment traps so every installation except illuminating appliances, ranges, clothes dryers, and outdoor grilles. Even if not required, they are a good idea. If a certain jurisdiction failed to adopt either code into law, then, should an incident occur, either could be used since they represent National and International Standards. There have been many cases where a Standard was applied in court even though it was never actually voted into law.

BTW, that first illustration does no good. It does not show a union or sediment trap.

**Michael Thomas** · 07-03-2007, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

BTW, that first illustration does no good. It does not show a union or sediment trap.

As some around here have posited about similar issues:

"Now Mr. Thomas, the IFGC withstanding, is it correct to say that that you *knew* that the manufacturer's own installation instructions show his connection made with the valve outside the cabinet, and with a solid metal pipe from the valve to the interior, but you did not report that on this furnace the more fragile flexible steel pipe extended into the cabinet...."

**Jerry Peck** · 07-03-2007, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

Jerry, if the hole is large enough, it is a simple matter to remove the screw and pull the plastic knob off the shutoff so it can slip through the hole.

Yes, but ...

In THAT photo, the hole *does not look large enough* to get the valve through it *if* the valve were on the inside of the cabinet.

I know you were talking 'hypothetically' if the CSST went into THAT cabinet, but (hypothetically) if the CSST did go into that cabinet, and the hole was large enough for the CSST and not its fitting, nut or the valve, then that would be a problem.

Correct?

(That's what I was stating/asking.)

**Bob Harper** · 07-03-2007, 09:53 PM

If the hole was large enough, I wouldn't worry as much but yes, in this case, it appears to be too tight.

Look at the problem this way:
a) you need a union outside of the appliance cabinet for removing the unit or combination valve
b) you must have a shutoff upstream of any union.
c) you must install a sediment trap for furnaces

right now this unit does not meet any of these criteria.

Michael, don't go chasing windmills. All mfrs. will refer you to the applicable codes even if they illustrate a "typical" installation. Those illustrations don't mean that is the only way to pipe it.

If you feel more comfortable with it piped another way, then recommend it and include your rationale/ justification. However, if you have no clear reference, you might succeed in stirring up a fight.