Thread: 4-ton condensor, compressor stolen

I bought a home on a foreclosure and have worked on it for 6 months, as an owner/builder. I was a carpenter for 25-years, and am doing all the carpentry, stairs, railings on four balconies, bldg. paper, Hardee board siding & trim for 3 stories, soffitt, cabinets, tile & hardwood floors, doors, etc. I passed my electrical and quickly found out that what one inspector sees as a pass doesn't necessarily mean another inspector sees the same thing; when a mechanical inspector came out and red-flagged me for new calcs and a MIS sheet, all because the compressor was stolen from the condensor unit that I had. I called it in because I wanted to see what I'd need to do to pass the mechanical. I figured if I put in a new compressor it'd pass but couldn't be sure, so I called it in and got tagged, needlessly as far as I'm concerned. The current unit is a 4-ton Comfort-Maker with a 5-ton air handler. The original MIS showed that the owner was going to install 2 trane condensors, 3 tons each, one on second floor and one on the third and he got a multi-zone, to get a higher score but then changed that to the 4-ton Comfort Maker condensor and the 5-ton handler, which brought 13 Seer up to 14. Anyway, I can't understand why I can't just put in a new compressor because the house is grandfathered in, to the previous code. I think the inspector is busting my balls. Anybody got a line as to if I'm right or not because I'd hate to spend money on the compressor if I gotta redo it? This house is in Hernando Bch.

Keith G.

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Not to bust your balls any further Keith but there is soooo much wrong with your assumptions.
First off, the inspector is probably a) busting your balls because he knows you don't have a clue and b) doing you a favor by not just letting you install something that probably won't work.
Switching from two units to one and increasing the size of that one to get to the assumed same tonnage isn't how it works.
I can't recall how many people I have counseled to install two zoned units over one larger unit. The ones that have listened love me for it. The ones who decide the almost double install cost isn't worth it and I must be exaggerating can't stop kicking themselves in the head.
- length of duct runs
- duct sizes
- return air circulation
- areas of heat gain
- zone dampers
- # and size of windows
- orientation of house
Are just a few of the factors that come into play. It sounds like the previous guy had a much better game plan. I can tell you from years of experience, it is very rare for one large system to properly cool 3 floors. It takes a really good engineering to design a system like that. By the time you add in the cost of zone dampers, sensors, control panel and different duct runs ... well you would have been better off putting in two systems.
Two systems will also allow you to better control utility costs and provide proper comfort levels.
Before you go any further, I suggest you research ACCA and Manual J load calculations. These are the industry standards for AC work.
Please remember you stated you are a carpenter, just as a carpenter needs a specific skillset to build a staircase, a tradesman needs a particular skillset to install a properly functioning AC system.
Good luck

If the equipment that is there was approved at one time ,you should be allowed to repair it. A compressor change is a repair, not an install.

Markus,

It's not 3 floors; it's 2 for a total of less than 2,000 sq. feet. The bottom floor is a garage only, as are all zoned in Hernando Bch. As I said, I got the house from a bank on a foreclosure because the previous owner ran short on cash. The house is already passed on rough mech., and all I need is the compressor to get the unit running. I am working also on a budget and ain't about to spend 5 K for 2 units when I can get a compressor, or another new condensor for less than half that. This is a question of cash; which is what it usually boils down to; no, brother I got a clue, believe me, it ain't like you and this yo-yo inspector got all the smarts and knowledge and everybody else, without your A.C. education, experience or knowledge, is a lame-brain, it's that some people are on this earth to help others and some are here to bust balls, and this guy is here to bust balls. I was a carpenter, 25 years, and was, and am more than happy, to share any knowledge I have that you may not. You, obviously, are too slick for anything like that.

Peace,

Keith G.

Go to the city and pull the original permits for construction. If rough inspections have been done there are records. Next, find a guy with a heating/cooling license.

Touchy, touchy,
So let's approach this from a different perspective.
It is not uncommon for plans to be approved by the Muni building dept and then have a field inspector not sign off on it. Conditions in the field may be different than on the plans or the plans may not be correct for field conditions. In most municipalities, the building inspector has the authority not to sign off on something he doesn't believe either complies with the Code or the plans. He have the right to appeal.
Secondly let me ask a few questions
- do you have an EPA license to buy freon or precharged equipment?
- do you have an HVAC license? most wholesalers won't sell to non-contractors and especially not AC equipment
- do you care if you screw it up and spew ozone depleting freon into the atmosphere
- do you know what to do if you get a freon leak
- do you know what the fines are for spewing freon (very high)
- do you have a pump to evacuate the lineset
- do you have a set of guages
- do you know the different freons and which one your equipment will use
- do you know how to evacuate a lineset, charge and balance a system
- do you know what a filter/drier is and what direction the arrow should point
- do you know how to braze joints; 5 ton unit soldering probably won't cut it
- do you know what type of oil was used in the previous compressor
- do you know how to clean a lineset to ensure that aren't incompatibility issues with previous oil
These are some of the questions you need to be able to answer properly to install a new condenser. Not being a jerk just stating the facts.
Your first post stated it was a 3 story building, your second post states its a two story. Not sure how an experienced carpenter could be confused about that.
Good luck

He has claimed in the past this home was 3 stories i.e. the another thread he posted on last March started by Chris M called "Energy Efficient Windows" ("windows 2 & 3 stories up"). Made similar statements and complaints on hijacked thread earlier (stouffer's thread on "creative" but inefficient "flashing" of windows).

He was also similarly "touchy" when his attempts at justifying not removing windows and flashing properly the windows, etc. and having to install new house wrap after taking over an abandonded foreclosed project which was exposed housewrap for a LONG time.

A project that never was completed from prior permit holder, since foreclosed and vacant - now new owner doesn't "grandfather".

Was not ever completed by the former owner/builder and finaled, since foreclosed or sold mid-project and stalled; and now he's needing to start from scratch - with a plan, approved and issued a new permit with a licensed HVAC contractor and current code adoptions.

Learning on the job and after the fact as your own GC on your own short dime can be expensive (as the former owner/builder already found out).

Taking an attitude with your AHJ, especially when they're right (and even if they're not) can be and IS OFTEN MORE EXPENSIVE.

I'm not sure how 25 years as a carpenter makes anyone an expert in HVAC.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

I took over a house that has tape and paper flashing about a year or more old. I removed all the homewrap and replaced it with 15 & 30 lb. felt and wrapped the headers with metal flashing but some of the bottom of the windows has paper flashing that has been screwed underneath the window-frames. Most of the tape on the sides has partially melted but is extremely difficult to remove.

Should I remove the tape or tape over them? The house has been sitting for about two years but there are no visible water leaks and also these windows are 2 and 3 stories up.

Peace,

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

Jerry,

I see your point believe me but it was done correctly; it passed the final building inspection process and, as I said, there is absolutely no signs of any leakage and these windows are accessed only by a manlift so the amount of time and work also has to be factored in for me. The windows are all certified impact-resistant and although I don't live in the home yet, my time working there has shown me their quality concerning noise and weather, as it stormed heavily many times while I was working inside. I still plan to caulk after taping the sides. I also figure I'll put metal flashing on the top and bottom. What kind of a chance am I taking? I mean after 2 years of sitting something would have leaked but nothing did and it is three stories high and located in a flood-zone, just off the Gulf-coast of Southwest Florida.

Peace,

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

Thanks. I usually use both; figuring it's probably worth the extra expense but I'm seriously considering skipping the metal above sliding glass doors because I have eight sliding glass doors and it does get expensive; any thoughts as to why I should or should not skip it? Only two of the doors are actually not covered by a balcony so I'll probably just do the two outside ones with both metal, header only, and tape.

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

Chris,

They're all sliding glass doors; all on balconies covered by the other balcony above, all have hardee-board and trim, installed over 30 lb. felt. I used metal flashing over the door and windows and paper on the sides and bottom, left the bottom open for drainage on the first floor and have yet to do the others because I'm finishing the railings first.

Sorry it takes me so long to respond but I'm working 8-12 hrs. a day on this house.

Keith G. is because Gary is my middle name.

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

I bought a home on a foreclosure and have worked on it for 6 months, as an owner/builder. I was a carpenter for 25-years, and am doing all the carpentry, stairs, railings on four balconies, bldg. paper, Hardee board siding & trim for 3 stories, soffitt, cabinets, tile & hardwood floors, doors, etc. I passed my electrical and quickly found out that what one inspector sees as a pass doesn't necessarily mean another inspector sees the same thing; when a mechanical inspector came out and red-flagged me for new calcs and a MIS sheet, all because the compressor was stolen from the condensor unit that I had. I called it in because I wanted to see what I'd need to do to pass the mechanical. I figured if I put in a new compressor it'd pass but couldn't be sure, so I called it in and got tagged, needlessly as far as I'm concerned. The current unit is a 4-ton Comfort-Maker with a 5-ton air handler. The original MIS showed that the owner was going to install 2 trane condensors, 3 tons each, one on second floor and one on the third and he got a multi-zone, to get a higher score but then changed that to the 4-ton Comfort Maker condensor and the 5-ton handler, which brought 13 Seer up to 14. Anyway, I can't understand why I can't just put in a new compressor because the house is grandfathered in, to the previous code. I think the inspector is busting my balls. Anybody got a line as to if I'm right or not because I'd hate to spend money on the compressor if I gotta redo it? This house is in Hernando Bch.

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

Markus,

It's not 3 floors; it's 2 for a total of less than 2,000 sq. feet. The bottom floor is a garage only, as are all zoned in Hernando Bch. As I said, I got the house from a bank on a foreclosure because the previous owner ran short on cash. The house is already passed on rough mech., and all I need is the compressor to get the unit running. I am working also on a budget and ain't about to spend 5 K for 2 units when I can get a compressor, or another new condensor for less than half that. This is a question of cash; which is what it usually boils down to; no, brother I got a clue, believe me, it ain't like you and this yo-yo inspector got all the smarts and knowledge and everybody else, without your A.C. education, experience or knowledge, is a lame-brain, it's that some people are on this earth to help others and some are here to bust balls, and this guy is here to bust balls. I was a carpenter, 25 years, and was, and am more than happy, to share any knowledge I have that you may not. You, obviously, are too slick for anything like that.

Peace,

Keith G.

Devil is in the details.

No devil, no details, the house is in Hernando Beach, where the 1st floor is a garage; period, you can't live in it, or heat and A/C it. Too many of you guys are simply out to prove something, what that is I'm never sure but it goes on in threads all over the net, from any subject whatsoever, there are always guys willing to waste their time to prove "something," and that something always shows somebody up---like---hey look what you said before and look how I can "catch" it. The house is 3 stories but only 2 as far as cooling and living goes, now do you understand? And, as far as me understanding anything about A/C, I never claimed to, nor do I now, I simply stated that a bldg. inspector can't and/or shouldn't be allowed to force an owner/builder to deal with only licensed contractors; if a man has the ability to connect a compressor and it works that is what should be inspected and ruled on---period; any of you wise guys that can read; can you also comprehend what you are reading or you too much in a hurry to prove something.

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Markus Keller

First off, the inspector is probably a) busting your balls because he knows you don't have a clue

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

no, brother I got a clue, believe me, it ain't like you and this yo-yo inspector got all the smarts and knowledge and everybody else, without your A.C. education, experience or knowledge, is a lame-brain,

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

And, as far as me understanding anything about A/C, I never claimed to, nor do I now,..

Originally Posted by Kieth Laufenberg

..any of you wise guys that can read; can you also comprehend what you are reading or you too much in a hurry to prove something.

Not trying to prove anything, just reading what you wrote.

Keith I can agree with you somewhat on your last post. A man should be allowed to do things that he is able to without interference by the government. If this house were in the middle of nowhere and you had stated you were going to live in it until you die, I would agree with you even more.
However, it isn't and you aren't. When it comes to a building that OTHER people will live in, adjacent to other buildings OTHER people live in, government should play a role in protecting the citizens.
In home construction this is especially important. Honestly, not to bash you personally but what you are looking at doing is what so many other flippers have done in other homes over recent years. This attitude and lack of actual professional knowledge has made housing and financial conditions far worse for many new home buyers.
Let's say the inspector steps back, lets you do what you want and you finish your flip and sell the house.
Let's also say that since you don't really know what you are doing, you don't do it quite right.
A young family buys the house and ends up with thousands of dollars in repairs to get it done right. Maybe they max out plastic, borrow money from relatives or forgo a newer car to pay for it. Thats the easy version.
The bad version is between that repair and the other BS repairs the typical flipper does, the repair costs make keeping the house no longer feasible. They go into foreclosure, lose the house, their money and years of family stability.
But that's Ok, because you made your profit without pesky government interference.
Living and working in a large City, I have seen this scenario play out over and over.
Interesting also that your last post didn't answer any of my previous questions.

Markus,

I am turning 65 this year and am retiring to this house. I've spent about 30K so far finishing it and am running low on cash; it's not that this mech. inspector red-flagged me that pisses me off, it's that he red-flagged me before I did anything. When I bought the house, the county said it was waiting on 4 finals, electrical, mechanical, plumbing and building. I knew I could handle the building and the others were just a matter of budget. I got an electrician and it passed except for the ditch which the electric company has to splice a hot-wire through 65' of PVC pipe. So, I dug a 65' ditch 2' deep and called it in. The electrical inspector passed the electrical with a hold just to verify the ditch was 2' deep and so when, coincidentially, I had a mechanical inspection that same day the head bldg. inspector told me that the mechanical inspector would verify the ditch's depth. He came out and measured it as being 2' deep then told me I needed another 2" because it was 2' to the top of the pipe, then red-flagged me for new calcs and a new MIS sheet. Now, when I told my AC guy he said he knew this inspector and had been red-flagged before for the same kind of nonsensical B.S. The rough mechanical had already passed and my A.C. guy gave me a price of $1375 to put in a new compressor but balked at fulfilling the inspector's red-flag. He said the new calcs and MIS sheet shouldn't be needed as the sheet in the file should still be good, even though it's an A.C. unit that runs on R-22. All I know is, this inspector is costing me time and money and not making any sense. I thought getting these bank foreclosures fixed and lived in was the whole idea of the recovery plan?

Peace,

Keith G.

James,

When I bought the house from the bank, it was verified that all liens had been satisfied and when I got the owner/builder permit it was verified to me that all the rough inspections had been passed and, in fact when I called in a work-in-progress the county told me that they WOULD NOT send an inspector UNTIL it was ready for a FINAL inspection.

Peace,

Keith G.

Keith,

Why don't you just chill out and do what is correct instead of trying to beat the system.

Life will be happier and far simpler if you do.

Nolan,

I'm still trying to figure out the system that you say I'm trying to beat.

Peace,

Keith G.

Keith, you came to this forum for help, but when people have given you sound advice you have spurned it. I wish you well, but have no interest in hearing any more of your sob story. Hire a pro and take the loss if you have to. Live and learn.

If he wants the pipe set 2" down it's not that big a deal is it ? or raise the grade, but the original calcs and specs should be acceptable since the permit was approved on that.

It's pretty simple, If the inspection has been called in on the original pulled, than no new calc's are needed for a compressor change.If the original permit has run out and the HVAC system was never finaled, than a new permit must be pulled by a licenced contractor.you should be able to use the original calc,s since the code has not changed since 2007.13 seer is accepable per FBC 2007 Table 13-607.1.ABC.3.2A.A permit is never required for System componant replacement per FBC 2007 section 105.2 see mechanical # 5 "replacement of any part which does not alte it's approval or make it unsafe" Hope this helps.

Many municipality's don't require a licensed contractor if it is permit by owner.

Thanks for the info., I appreciate you guys' time. Brian, the original ran out and I called it in on my permit; I just reviewed the paperwork I pulled on the original permit(s) and see (now) where in the notes it says: "need approved energy calcs on site." Maybe this is what this inspector saw, if he reviewed the bldg. permit history, and decided he would just leave it. We've got 14 seer because of a 4-ton condensor & a 5-ton air handler; at least that's my understanding.

Peace,

Keith G.

14 seer because of a 5 ton air handler and a 4 ton condenser, why would that be efficient maybe the other way around ?

Originally Posted by Phil Brody

14 seer because of a 5 ton air handler and a 4 ton condenser, why would that be efficient maybe the other way around ?

No, oversizing the evaporator coil size can increase efficiency in some cases. These systems should still be certified by AHRI though.

In what cases Dave ?, Normally the higher seer condenser units have a lot more surface area to dissipate the heat

Aspen manufactures a cased coil that when matched with lower SEER and smaller tonage condensers can raise SEER as much as 1.5 The added evaporator coil area has the ability to gain heat more efficiently and shortens run time to acheive desired temp. Not all manufacturers have been certified by AHRI which is why I stated " in some cases". Hope this clears things up.

Just as a side note. Condenser SEER numbers are only good when matched with approved coils or air handlers.

Dave I understand the ability to extract more heat but less humidity, maybe this is a fair rule for Arizona,but I thought it was generally the humidity not the heat and an over sized evap. especially in FL would be a bad move.

The larger coil also has the ability to remove more grains of moisture.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

I bought a home on a foreclosure and have worked on it for 6 months, as an owner/builder. I was a carpenter for 25-years, and am doing all the carpentry, stairs, railings on four balconies, bldg. paper, Hardee board siding & trim for 3 stories, soffitt, cabinets, tile & hardwood floors, doors, etc. I passed my electrical and quickly found out that what one inspector sees as a pass doesn't necessarily mean another inspector sees the same thing; when a mechanical inspector came out and red-flagged me for new calcs and a MIS sheet, all because the compressor was stolen from the condensor unit that I had. I called it in because I wanted to see what I'd need to do to pass the mechanical. I figured if I put in a new compressor it'd pass but couldn't be sure, so I called it in and got tagged, needlessly as far as I'm concerned. The current unit is a 4-ton Comfort-Maker with a 5-ton air handler. The original MIS showed that the owner was going to install 2 trane condensors, 3 tons each, one on second floor and one on the third and he got a multi-zone, to get a higher score but then changed that to the 4-ton Comfort Maker condensor and the 5-ton handler, which brought 13 Seer up to 14. Anyway, I can't understand why I can't just put in a new compressor because the house is grandfathered in, to the previous code. I think the inspector is busting my balls. Anybody got a line as to if I'm right or not because I'd hate to spend money on the compressor if I gotta redo it? This house is in Hernando Bch.

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

Thanks for the info., I appreciate you guys' time. Brian, the original ran out and I called it in on my permit; I just reviewed the paperwork I pulled on the original permit(s) and see (now) where in the notes it says: "need approved energy calcs on site." Maybe this is what this inspector saw, if he reviewed the bldg. permit history, and decided he would just leave it. We've got 14 seer because of a 4-ton condensor & a 5-ton air handler; at least that's my understanding.

Peace,

Keith G.

Originally Posted by James Risley

Should not be a big deal...maybe 1hour with shovel...but now needs a reinspection......Reading between the lines...He stated that they would not inspect until it was ready for finals...Sounds like he has asked for extra inspections...and as a result has asked for some of his flagging problems...We are not getting all the details until after we respond and then find out things were not exactly as he stated originally. It now appears that he will be owner/occupant and will not flip. etc... Perhaps (I suspect) the new calcs and specs are required due changing the two units for one.
JR

Ding-Ding-Ding

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

I bought a home on a foreclosure and have worked on it for 6 months, as an owner/builder.

Keith,

I hope that you do realize, presuming this is an investment you are planning on flipping, that you will need to keep that house for 12 months after you FINISH it, and that you are NOT allowed to offer it for sale or for lease ... you are aware of that, right?

Jerry,

Read the whole post and the answer will appear to you.

Keith G.

Originally Posted by Keith Laufenberg

Jerry,

Read the whole post and the answer will appear to you.

Keith G.

Keith,

I stopped reading your posts when you started bitching about the responses you did not like.

So, to make sure that YOU do not turn around and try to SELL that house within a year of working on it ... regardless of whether or not YOU SAY it is your retirement house NOW - you may decide to sell it later, or rent it later ... *I* POSTED THAT INFORMATION FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE ... whether you liked it or not.

You come here with questions and advise and then bitch about the answer, tough SH*T! You either already know it all or you do not, in which case you need to sit back and learn, and accept what is posted in response to your posts ... and not get all pissy about the responses.