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  1. #1
    Alan C Grubb's Avatar
    Alan C Grubb Guest

    Default This can't be correct

    [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME~1/User/LOCALS~1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG] On a recent inspection, I came across this. A new HE furnace was installed but they kept the hot water heater on the old vent. This vent goes through the roof. I don't mind the vent size but duct tape as a connector? I have searched the threads and since my codes books were "removed from my premises", stolen, I haven't confirmed this is incorrect. The installation was by a very large firm in our area and I certainly don't want to call it unless I have some back up. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    Alan
    The adhesive on the tape is a combustible material. flue pipe is not allowed to be in contact with combustible material.


  3. #3
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: This can't be correct

    I would write up that the vent for the gas water heater is not installed per the manufactures installation instructions and needs to be repaired so flue gas will not leak into the house. If the company that installed it still says it is OK as is....ask them to put it in writing so your client will have documentation in the event future problems arise. They will not put it in writing but they will fix it to cover their butt.



    From the NC Fuel Gas Code

    503.6 Gas vents.
    Gas vents shall comply with Sections 503.6.1
    through 503.6.12 (see Section 202, Definitions).

    503.6.1 Installation, general.
    Gas vents shall be installed

    in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions.



  4. #4
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    No, much wrong with this installation including improper size no correct transition/connection from vent connector to b-vent, no tape or other foreign materials on exterior of either b-vent or single wall applaince vent connector, vent connector offset inproperly installed - exposed crimping allowing leakage, foil "tape" never allowed, and is not a proper vent material, no support for offset, etc. Single wall vent connector minimum clearance combustibles and insulation. Then of course there is questionable size, rise, etc. for unknown remaining BTU of now orphaned water heater.Mfg instructions for bvent freely avail on www, Most mfg instructions for water heaters also freely available on the www. National fuel gas code also avail for viewing at no charge on the www. single wall vent connector information and bvent.Librarys and designated government "repositories" have "code" books on file in the reference section usually. Local ammendments, codes, etc. usually www or in person at your designated authority office. Saturday library hours?


  5. #5
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    Only licensed six months and all your reference materials gone, that stinks. Hope you had insurance. Good luck.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan C Grubb View Post
    On a recent inspection, I came across this. A new [b]HE furnace[.b] was installed but they kept the hot water heater on the old vent. This vent goes through the roof. I don't mind the vent size but duct tape as a connector? I have searched the threads and since my codes books were "removed from my premises", stolen, I haven't confirmed this is incorrect. The installation was by a very large firm in our area and I certainly don't want to call it unless I have some back up. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
    First it is wrong, no matter what system.

    Second, if that is for a high efficiency (Cat IV) furnace it is completely wrong and the wrong materials have been used. Due to the corrosive condensation with a Cat IV you can not use metal for the flue pipe, it needs to be PVC, ABS or whatever the manufacturer requires.

    As for the size of the company that installed it? It has been my experience that the larger they are the more mistakes they tend to make!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    First, S.P. I think it was clear this crap is for the now orphaned WH., second I cannot imagine an instance where ABS anything would be allowed for a vent even Cat IV, please provide a reference where that might ever be allowed, tnx. PVC CPVC but ABS, I don't think so.

    Foil tape is not a connector, period.Foil tape is not intended, listed, approved or accepted to be applied to vent connector or bvent.

    Foil tape may not be placed on either a connector or bvent, not only will it interfere with the temperature, creating cold/hot rings, may have combustible issues, differing metals, temperature limitations, etc AND IS NOT INTENDED, APPROVED OR LISTED FOR THAT PURPOSE (sealing connector joints); ALSO, VERY IMPORTANTLY, the joints, seams, connections of either material (connector or bvent) must remain visible to inspection, not allowed to cover these joints, seams or the connection screws between sections of connector..




  8. #8
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    First, S.P. I think it was clear this crap is for the now orphaned WH., second I cannot imagine an instance where ABS anything would be allowed for a vent even Cat IV, please provide a reference where that might ever be allowed, tnx. PVC CPVC but ABS, I don't think so.

    Foil tape is not a connector, period.Foil tape is not intended, listed, approved or accepted to be applied to vent connector or bvent.

    Foil tape may not be placed on either a connector or bvent, not only will it interfere with the temperature, creating cold/hot rings, may have combustible issues, differing metals, temperature limitations, etc AND IS NOT INTENDED, APPROVED OR LISTED FOR THAT PURPOSE (sealing connector joints); ALSO, VERY IMPORTANTLY, the joints, seams, connections of either material (connector or bvent) must remain visible to inspection, not allowed to cover these joints, seams or the connection screws between sections of connector..

    I think I covered just what you posted in my post just with not so many words! As for ABS what would be wrong with it? Some of the old ABS had problems but the newer ABS seems to be fine.

    As for it not being allowed for use on a CAT IV system, why don't you provide a document saying it can not be used. I know some allow it but, it might not be OK with some manufactures that is why I said to use what the manufacturer requires.

    HG or whoever you are, when was the last time you inspected a CAT IV system or for that matter any HVAC system in a home?

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 09-04-2010 at 09:48 AM.
    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  9. #9
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    Different issue, but since this thread is already going, I thought I would hijack it.

    Basement furnace. Looked like a Cat. I. Pretty sure it is not a Cat. IV, but it had a plastic flue pipe. The labeling on the flue pipe material indicated UL approval. The elbows were clear (ish) and the flue pipe material looked like ABS.

    The elbows were discolored and since this is something that I am unfamiliar with, I am going to turn this over to a HVAC contractor, but I was curious if anyone has seen anything like this before.

    Thanks

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  10. #10
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    Exclamation Recalled plastic venting

    Gunnar, this is the infamous venting that was recalled due to failures. It was intended for CAT III and IV gas venting. CAT I appliances have flue gas temps. way too high for any plastic venting, much less this recalled stuff. The appliance rating plate should note the CAT. of venting for that appliance.
    HTH,

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Recalled plastic venting

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    Gunnar, this is the infamous venting that was recalled due to failures. It was intended for CAT III and IV gas venting. CAT I appliances have flue gas temps. way too high for any plastic venting, much less this recalled stuff. The appliance rating plate should note the CAT. of venting for that appliance.
    HTH,
    Bob,

    Thanks. I kept thinking that there was no way plastic was any good in this case. The installation is probably 20 years old and the house has not burned down (yet). Unfortunately, my photo of the appliance label did not come out.

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  12. #12
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    Gunnar...what camera do you use? They are some good closeup pics. My flash washes out the image that close up.

    Last edited by James Duffin; 09-04-2010 at 07:56 PM. Reason: more info and spelling

  13. #13
    David Bell's Avatar
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    First, S.P. I think it was clear this crap is for the now orphaned WH., second I cannot imagine an instance where ABS anything would be allowed for a vent even Cat IV, please provide a reference where that might ever be allowed, tnx. PVC CPVC but ABS, I don't think so.
    This is from the same Nordyne installation manual as the previous thread.
    Vent Pipe Material
    Vent and combustion air pipe and fi ttings must be
    one of the following materials and must conform
    to the indicated ANSI/ASTM standards:
    Material Standard
    Schedule 40 PVC D1785
    PVC-DWV D2665
    SDR-21 D2241
    & SDR-26
    ABS-DWV D2661
    Schedule 40 ABS F628
    Foam/Cellular Core PVC F891



  14. #14
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    Default Re: Recalled plastic venting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Thanks. I kept thinking that there was no way plastic was any good in this case. The installation is probably 20 years old and the house has not burned down (yet).
    The threat isn't burning down, it is CO poisoning.

    Unfortunately the deadline for the original remedy under the recall has passed and now homeowners will be responsible for most of the repair costs.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    Good thing an elbow and 12 ' of pipe won't cost that much to replace. Thanks, Bob H.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  16. #16
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    Gunnar,

    I hope you took provisions to make sure that whoever your client is knows this is a safety issue with the plexvent.

    A contractor in Vermont a few years ago was sued for negligence for not reporting and shutting down a piece of equipment that had this type of venting material attached to it.

    Measured Performance more than just a buzzword

  17. #17
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    Default Re: This can't be correct

    the vent material used must be approved and listed for that purpose. I know of no ABS pipe manufacturer who has submitted their product for approval (i.e. shared the otherwise proprietary NTL results for meeting the standard for venting gas fired appliances).Why? inherently defective for that purpose.Plexivent is/was not ABS, was HiTemp plastic, also found to be inherently defective for the purpose.


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