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Thread: TPR pipe

  1. #1
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    Default TPR pipe

    I inspected a WH yesterday with at least 5, 45 ells and one 22 in 3/4 copper, literally wrapping around the WH before disappearing into an ABS vent appearing out of the closet wall (on the opposite side of the valve) which may be an approved discharge point in 1978. The WH was a newer install located in a laundry in the center of the building. I reported it as having too many restrictions (all the bends) but could see no real alternative, short of cutting through a slab to run straighter pipe outside - not a cost effective solution. A Watts 210 could be installed but that doesn't resolve the restrictive piping issue Anyone else have any ideas/opinion?. Many thanks...

    ip

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Ian, I'd be happy to offer a reply but I am not completely clear on your issue.

    Are you talking about vent piping or water? A picture will save you typing a thousand words.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    He appears to be talking about the TPR pipe. At least, that's the title of his thread.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    "any ideas/opinion?"
    Yeah, instead of that, extend the ABS pipe around the back of the tank with elbows and run the discharge pipe straight down into it.

    Sounds like there was no drain pan.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  5. #5
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    At some point the TPR DISCHARGE must terminate to an AIR GAP to DRAINAGE.Copper discharge cannot be burried into the ABS drainage.Indirect - is key.As far as your description, 45s etc. not following. Picture worth many words.There SHOULD be a tag on the TPR, unlike a matress tag, it should NOT be removed, even by the consumer. This Safety tag (generally yellow) should indicate the maximum number of bends, reference a non-trapped discharge and reference the size of the valve-size of discharge and indicate it should terminate to an air-gap or at least x inches above the floor or pan.


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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    I inspected a WH yesterday with at least 5, 45 ells and one 22

    The allowed number of elbows as always been a maximum of 4, and the degree of the elbow is not specified, thus 5 elbows of any angle would be one-too-many elbows.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    For clarification. No, there was no catch-pan or secondary drain and obviously the TPR discharge is incorrect but I am at a loss to figure out an approved method so as to be current code compliant. The small black hole in the third pic. (also ABS) was (I suspect) a drain for a catch pan. As far as I can tell - short of running a hose and water or an air line down both outlets, one or both possibly drain to pic #4 - black hole (just to the right of the cap). Obviously improper in so many levels. The cap in this pic is for the dryer vent - also all done with ABS. Real good location for the outdoor spigot don't ya think! So many issues...so little time!

    Mr. Watson, as you can see the yellow tag is still affixed but unless it was in code, did not specify the # of elbows or joints.

    ip

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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    "I am at a loss to figure out an approved method so as to be current code compliant"


    Maybe the WH could be rotated so that the TPR is over the drain.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    as you can see the yellow tag is still affixed but unless it was in code, did not specify the # of elbows or joints.

    Ian,

    The code includes manufacturer's installation instructions into the code by reference to them, thus the installation instructions are code, and the manufacturer's installation instructions limit the number of elbows to 4, thus so does the code.

    The discharging of the T&P relief valve drain line has changed over the years.

    The codes *USED TO* require the drain line to discharge to the outdoors or to an indirect waste receptor (such as a floor drain), however, the codes now require the discharge to be *in the same room or space* as the water heater is located in, and, the discharge is allowed to be onto the floor (but is still not allowed to discharge such that it could cause personal injury - "Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.").

    With the latest change comes the condition where it is seldom has more than 4 elbows, usually one on elbow to allow the drain line to point down toward the floor.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: TPR pipe



    Pictured copper assembly is not a gravity DISCHARGE (note right side is lower than left).

    You have a defiance of gravity drainage situation - a trapped situation, a cross contamination potential situation (with TPRV discharge ingulfed in the drain) and yet another "situation" defying california plumbing code with regards the material used for the drain (not the discharge), unapproved material - missing air gap, indirect within the conditioned or semi-conditioned (should it be exterior to the conditioned envelope WH closet) etc.

    This is an aspect of the applicable safety and codes language which has not changed and is violated in the pictured installation.

    Note your location is California. This topic has been addressed, complete with (I believe to be still current) California code sitations (at least till the 2011 next eff. date, if I'm recalling that correctly) elsewhere on this forum, which if I'm recalling correctly, the current are still based on the Uniform Plumbing and Mechanical codes with California ammendments.

    There is printing on both sides of the yellow tag, perhaps its been a while since you read one.

    BTW, a 1/4 bend, offset or elbow is a 90-degree change in orientation not a 45. Greater than a 1/4 bend, offset, or elbow would be greater than 90 degrees, not less than, thus as pictured elbows or 90s and a 135 offset or change in direction before improperly terminating the improperly, illegally, unsafely fashioned TPRV discharge INTO the reported as "ABS pipe" drain(age) which again questionable discription.

    TPR valve discharge terminates prior to a drain. It must be an indirect/airgap termination - this is not only to provide pressure/temp ENERGY release/dissapation to atmosphere prior to drainage, and/or to visualize discharge; but to prevent contamination of the potable water system and the storage vessle - via the unclosed valve which does NOT prevent backflow, esp. when corroded, scaled, and partially unclosed/open.


    Usually designing a correction is far beyond the scope of an HI, especially in a state which regulates plumbing and mechanical (even one that does not regulate HI); however your contention that correction must involve "busting the slab" I find questionable, to say the least.

    I suspect the "hole in the floor" may have a purpose other than floor drain as do not see a grid, guard, etc. and with the upper portion of this alcove, closet or cabinet having been closed, and the "opening" seemingly lower than the top of the water heater, suspect lack of sufficient make up/combustion air. I am also doubful/dubious of some of your other systems componants identifications.

    Seemingly insufficient earthquake strapping (nothing pictured at lower half from "floor" view - upper strap seems insufficiently secured or at upper 1/3. Connections at top are not flexable connection as viewed, etc. Again note location stated on profile.

    Admit assuming natural gas fueled and at lower elevations due to stated location on profile.

    Check the current California Plumbing Code, used to read something like this:

    - 608.5 Relief valves located inside a building shall be provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief valve outlet, of galvanized steel, hard-drawn copper pipe and fittings, CPVC, or listed relief valve drain tube with fittings that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as opposed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to the outside of the building, with the end of the pipe not more than two (2) feet (610 mm) nor less than six (6) inches (152 mm) abovethe ground or the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing downward. Such drains may terminate at other approved locations. Relief valve drains shall not terminate in a building's crawl space. No part of such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to freezing. The terminal end of the drain pipe shall not be threaded.


    Numerous other citations applicable, to this inproper, and unsafe installation; not to mention the installation instructions for the TPRV, the storage type water heater, and others.

    Suspect unpermitted, uninspected replacement and upsize, by unskilled, unqualified individual.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-25-2010 at 11:11 AM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    I would recommend they install a pex drain line.


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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Thompson View Post
    I would recommend they install a pex drain line.
    Interesting, since, IIRC California Plumbing Code prohibits PEX from being installed within 18" of a connection to a water heater,
    CPC 604.11.2
    Water Heater Connections. PEX tubing shall NOT be installed within the first eighteen (18) inches (457 mm) of piping connected to a water heater.



    Internal diameter is more restrictive than CPC allows in associated sizes.
    and, PEX is sold as coiled tubing not straight length TUBE, and as the pictured WH and discharge is greater than 32" in length, and as so many municipalities (AHJs in California) require horizontal to vertical changes in direction of PEX tubing be sleeved in long sweep PVC, etc. and PEX is required to be secured 32" oc, and THERMAL expansion and contraction of oh, approx 3/16" PER FOOT is required, and securement to an approved AIR GAP device would be required at its (the TPRV discharge) termination to an approved drain - oh and the intermixing of materials outside of an approved manifold, etc. And CPC requires pressure testing of 100 PSI OR One-and-one-half times the system or componant exposure, which ever is higher.

    Nobody wants TPRV discharge "a-flipping" and "a-flopping" around when exposed to high temp or high pressure relief evacuation, or expansion/contraction to dislodge from airgap - or so restricted that it fails or causes another componant to fail, when subjected to forces of thermal expansion or contraction.

    AFAIK, and IMO, both unwise and not compliant in CA.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Thank you all for your observations and information. A special kudos to Mr. Watson who consistently continues to provide more information than necessary. You are correct of course re. the 45 Vs 90 - My error/my bad. Though I appreciate all the extraneous verbage, pointing out issues (some assumed) which I already know to be of defect, no solution to the matter on hand was forthcoming. So I wonder what would your solution be?

    It's probably pretty obvious to most (I hope all) Home Inspectors that this particular installation of the TPR line is just plain wrong on many levels. There are other issues also but my post was with regard to the TPR discharge only. However, any one of those issues in connection with the WH would have (did) cause my recommendation of a complete review by a licensed and qualified plumber to correct/realign the TPR pipe (and other issues), so as to be code compliant and non-hazardous.

    I do not recall the age of the WH (installed 2003, I believe) but the TPR discharge should have been made compliant for that time at the very least. Having said that, and assuming the work is performed for today's standard, does anyone have any idea how it would be accomplished?

    The WH stands approximately 18" above the (slab) laundry floor. Use of the existing ABS pipe in the side wall, amongst other issues, fails to provide an observable outlet point. The hole on the cabinet floor (adjacent to the WH) may or may not be the 'other end' of the hole adjacent to the dryer vent outside - and in any event - is below grade. Discharging the TPR onto the laundry floor, sans drain is simply not safe and would likely cause damage. Turning the WH so that the TPR and sidewall drain are aligned is not feasable as it puts the controls and access panel to the rear - thereby inaccessible. So what is the solution?

    Mr. Watson please re-read and comprehend my original post, I did not recommend 'busting through the slab' as you so eloquently stated - it was merely an offering of a possible but unlikely solution. I accept that this is not a DIY forum but with so many WHs observed, I am wondering how this install has been remedied. Perhaps a Plumber might chime in...

    ip


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    Cool Re: TPR pipe remedies

    You could talk to the AHJ about a few options. One might be to move the ABS drain to the front and install a basin where discharge could be observed, provide an air gap yet drain effectively. Another option we've used locally is to discharge into a basin that then dumps into a high temp. condensate pump with overflow alarm wires and heater hose. These wires are tied into a wet switch in the basin to alert the homeowner if either the basin gets wet or the pump overflows. This discharge is then pumped away to a remote open drain using heater hose. The pump is the same used for Honeywell True Steam humidifier's drainage. You also have the option of rotating the WH if that helps with the angles but you still need that drain up front.
    With the entire unit sitting on a platform, you could place a drain pan connected to the ABS first then set the WH in a separate pan with a hockey puck alarm to drain into it. I've seen units place in shower pans for drainage before. Lots of ways to skin a cat.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Ian
    There is nothing right about this installation.other than the size of the pipe. You can go to the Watts web site and see there installation instructions of which all manufacture here in the United States follow. You can go to the ASMI site and for a fee can get the same information.
    IBC-International Building Code; P2803.6.1 requirements for discharge pipe. The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:
    !. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
    2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater
    3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall full size to the air gap.
    4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.
    5. Discharge to the floor to an indirect waste receptor, or to the outdoors.. Where discharged to the outdoors in an area subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
    6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
    7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
    8. Not be trapped.
    9. Be installed to flow by gravity.
    10. Not terminated more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor.or waste receptor.
    11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
    12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
    13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested and approved. for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1

    A newer water heater should meet these standards.
    Bruce


  16. #16
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Ian
    After looking at your pictures it looks as if the gas vent does not meet the requirement of either the National gas or International Building Code. See chapter 24 in the International Building Code.
    Bruce


  17. #17
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Internal diameter is more restrictive than CPC allows in associated sizes.
    and, PEX is sold as coiled tubing not straight length TUBE
    Uponor/Wirsbo has been selling Pex tubing from 1/2" thru 2" in 20 foot straight lengths for a good 6 or 7 years.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The codes *USED TO* require the drain line to discharge to the outdoors or to an indirect waste receptor (such as a floor drain), however, the codes now require the discharge to be *in the same room or space* as the water heater is located in, and, the discharge is allowed to be onto the floor (but is still not allowed to discharge such that it could cause personal injury - "Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.").
    I thought we cleared this bit of misinformation up a few weeks ago, Jerry.

    To the best of my knowledge, the State of Florida is still using the 2007 edition of the Florida Plumbing Code, which states in chapter 5, section 504.6:

    The discharge piping serving a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof shall:


    1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.

    2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.

    3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.

    4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.

    5. Discharge to the floor, to the water heater pan, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where dis- charging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

    6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.

    7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.

    8. Not be trapped.

    9. Be installed so as to flow by gravity.

    10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.

    11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of such piping.

    12. Not have valves or tee fittings.

    13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section 605.4 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME AI12.4.1.

    There were a number of revisions to the 2007 code adopted in January of 2009, but none of those revisions supersede Chapter 5 Section 504.6


  19. #19
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    I thought we cleared this bit of misinformation up a few weeks ago, Jerry.
    I thought we did too, Widdershins.

    I've added underlining and bold, and made the text ALL CAPS to highlight the important part:
    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders
    To the best of my knowledge, the State of Florida is still using the 2007 edition of the Florida Plumbing Code, which states in chapter 5, section 504.6:

    The discharge piping serving a pressure relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination thereof shall:


    1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.

    2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.

    3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.

    4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.

    5. Discharge to the floor, to the water heater pan, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where dis- charging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

    6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.

    7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.

    8. Not be trapped.

    9. Be installed so as to flow by gravity.

    10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.

    11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of such piping.

    12. Not have valves or tee fittings.

    13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section 605.4 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME AI12.4.1.

    There were a number of revisions to the 2007 code adopted in January of 2009, but none of those revisions supersede Chapter 5 Section 504.6

    Now, and explained BEFORE when I thought we CLEARED THIS UP BEFORE (as you stated), the only way to discharge "or to the outdoors" AND to meet "through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater" would be for the water heater to be LOCATED "outdoors", and, of course, the water heater would need to be listed and labeled for installation "outdoors". There are some special water heaters which are listed and labeled for installation "outdoors", but the water heaters under discussion are not those types and ARE NOT installed "outdoors".

    Thus, the "or to the outdoors" option IS NOT AVAILABLE to 99.999999% of the water heater installations.

    Now, though, THE WASTE RECEPTOR'S DRAIN LINE which the T&P discharge pipe drains to may, indeed, discharge to "the outdoors". But that is not the discharge line being discussed, that is a different discharge line.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: TPR pipe remedies

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    One might be to move the ABS drain to the front and install a basin where discharge could be observed, provide an air gap yet drain effectively.
    To my knowledge, ABS is not rated to receive the discharge from the T&P discharge drain line. Even the water heater drain pan's drain line is not allowed to be ABS, it is required to be a material which is suitable for use as potable water, which includes that which is rated for the temperature of the hot water.

    - P2801.5.1 Pan size and drain. The pan shall be not less than 11/2 inches (38 mm) deep and shall be of sufficient size and shape to receive all dripping or condensate from the tank or water heater. The pan shall be drained by an indirect waste pipe having a minimum diameter of 3/4 inch (19 mm). Piping for safety pan drains shall be of those materials listed in Table P2904.5.

    Table P2904.5 includes, among other materials, PEX, CPVC, copper, stainless steel pipe, poly bute, galvanized steel, brass, and some others, but it does not include PVC, ABS and those which are only approved for DWV piping in which the water is presumed to not be as hot.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: TPR pipe remedies

    [quote=Jerry Peck;151997]To my knowledge, ABS is not rated to receive the discharge from the T&P discharge drain line. Even the water heater drain pan's drain line is not allowed to be ABS, it is required to be a material which is suitable for use as potable water, which includes that which is rated for the temperature of the hot water.

    - P2801.5.1 Pan size and drain. The pan shall be not less than 11/2 inches (38 mm) deep and shall be of sufficient size and shape to receive all dripping or condensate from the tank or water heater. The pan shall be drained by an indirect waste pipe having a minimum diameter of 3/4 inch (19 mm). Piping for safety pan drains shall be of those materials listed in Table P2904.5.

    Table P2904.5 includes, among other materials, PEX, CPVC, copper, stainless steel pipe, poly bute, galvanized steel, brass, and some others, but it does not include PVC, ABS and those which are only approved for DWV piping in which the water is presumed to not be as hot.

    Standard Pex is not allowed according to Watts. I know that there is going to be allot of plumbers out there that are going to say it can be and they do is all the time. .As the fittings interior diameter is less than 3/4 inch. And according to the code the pipe cannot be downsized nor restricted. The only PEX that is allowed is the PEX discharge pipe supplied by the manufacture for that purpose. As the fittings are the correct size for the valve. And the pipe has to be secured to the tank. I have yet been able to find anywhere that you can find that correct fitting by itself. Nor a tool to stretch the PEX over the fitting and properly secure it.


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    Default Re: TPR pipe remedies

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Adams View Post
    As the fittings interior diameter is less than 3/4 inch. And according to the code the pipe cannot be downsized nor restricted.


    That is referring to "nominal" sises, thus 3/4" copper = 3/4" iron pipe (even though the internal diameter of the 3/4" copper is much smaller - so, is copper acceptable?) = 3/4" CPVC = 3/4" PEX = 3/4" etc.

    And the pipe has to be secured to the tank.


    Something I point out to plumbers all the time - the allowable spacing for supporting and securing the material which is used.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Cool Re: TPR pipe

    JP--the correct table is P2905.5 ;-)

    This table is for 'water distribution pipe, which seems counterintuitive. This is for a 'drain' yet the code specs pipe for 'distribution. My question is, where does this effluent go? I mean, how do you discharge 'distribution'? Now, what makes even less sense is the temp. ratings of this chart http://www.plasticpipe.org/pdf/tn-11...n_pressure.pdf


    So, I have another question: Can you use a material approved in table P2905.5 for a certain distance then switch to another material or does it have to remain this pipe until the point of discharge into the DWV or ground---no, wait a minute, you cannot discharge into the DWV or ground because they are not on the approved list.

    This is assine!

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: TPR pipe remedies

    [quote=Jerry Peck;152004][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font]

    That is referring to "nominal" sises, thus 3/4" copper = 3/4" iron pipe (even though the internal diameter of the 3/4" copper is much smaller - so, is copper acceptable?) = 3/4" CPVC = 3/4" PEX = 3/4" etc.

    Jerry
    Pipe is measured from the interior. 3/4 copper pipe is going to be 3/4 interior or 0.75. Copper tubing is measured by the exterior. The interior of the 3/4 copper tubing is going to be about 1/2 inch and is not allowed to be used for the for the drain pipe. There is some pipe out there that is metric that is questionable. You can take a mike and measure the interior of the pipe and it will be very close to 0.75. If you ever get a chance visit a pipe manufacturer. You will see that they check size of pipe quite often.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    JP--the correct table is P2905.5 ;-)
    Bob,

    Depends ...

    Without referencing a code edition, it (the table) could be either . I posted the code section from the 2006 IRC, that section has been renumbered in the 2009 IRC - but the table is the same. I should have specified that I was posting from the 2006 IRC.

    This table is for 'water distribution pipe, which seems counterintuitive.
    Correct, that table is for 'water distribution pipe', and while it may seem counterintuitive it is not.

    The reason it is not counterintuitive is that DWV piping does not have the same higher temperature rating as water distribution pipe has. DWV piping is typically handling water which is either cold, hot mixed with cold, or at most 'hot' within the limitations of 'hot' water temperature, whereas the T&P relief valve is designed and intended to not discharge water unless it is 210 degrees *at pressure*, which means that *at atmosphere* the 210 degree water is almost instantaneously steam. DWV piping is not intended to have water that hot in it. Water distribution piping can handle that temperature for various time periods depending on the material, copper and galvanized can handle it a lot longer than CPVC or PEX can - but - when the T&P relief valve releases cold water is drawn into the water heater, cooling the water, which in turn cools the water being discharged out the T&P relief valve.

    My question is, where does this effluent go? I mean, how do you discharge 'distribution'?
    Not understanding your question.

    So, I have another question: Can you use a material approved in table P2905.5 for a certain distance then switch to another material or does it have to remain this pipe until the point of discharge into the DWV or ground---no, wait a minute, you cannot discharge into the DWV or ground because they are not on the approved list.

    All I can try to explain is that even the drain pan the water heater is setting in is required to have a drain line, and that drain line is required to be a material listed in the table for water distribution piping, and that drain line is all the way to its termination.

    Now, if you were to discharge the T&P relief valve to a concrete floor, and the water were to drain across the floor to a floor drain, the water would cool to some extent (no, there is no minimum separation for this cooling effect to take place) and thus be safe for the DWV piping connected to the floor drain.

    The code does not, cannot, take all potential possibilities into consideration. If the code attempted to try to do that, one would need an 18 wheeler tractor trailer with a 50 foot long trailer just to haul the code around in ... and it would *still* not be able to address *all* potential possibilities.

    Thus we get back to the code is "minimum", but not even 'good' (see other discussion for that ).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: TPR pipe remedies

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Adams View Post
    Jerry
    Pipe is measured from the interior.
    I am aware of that.

    3/4 copper pipe is going to be 3/4 interior or 0.75. Copper tubing is measured by the exterior. The interior of the 3/4 copper tubing is going to be about 1/2 inch and is not allowed to be used for the for the drain pipe.
    3/4 nominal size pipe IS allowed, regardless of exactly how large it is.

    This has been discussed many times, I suspect you must have missed it. The intent is to make sure that the nominal size pipe is not reduced, not that the actual size is not reduced.

    If not, only iron pipe would be allowed for the discharge line as the T&P relief valve discharges are iron pipe sizes and only iron pipe (i.e., galvanized pipe and the like) is in iron pipe sizes.

    Also, actually iron pipe sizes are not internal diameter sizes. They are approximate internal diameter sizes, 1/2" is *larger than* 0.50"; 3/4" is *larger than* 0.75"; etc.

    That said, 3/4" copper is a suitable size for the discharge pipe of a 3/4" T&P relief valve, even though it is *smaller* than the 3/4" I.P. (iron pipe) size and thread on the valve. That is because 'nominal' pipe size is used, not actual pipe size.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I thought we did too, Widdershins.

    I've added underlining and bold, and made the text ALL CAPS to highlight the important part:



    Now, and explained BEFORE when I thought we CLEARED THIS UP BEFORE (as you stated), the only way to discharge "or to the outdoors" AND to meet "through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater" would be for the water heater to be LOCATED "outdoors", and, of course, the water heater would need to be listed and labeled for installation "outdoors". There are some special water heaters which are listed and labeled for installation "outdoors", but the water heaters under discussion are not those types and ARE NOT installed "outdoors".

    Thus, the "or to the outdoors" option IS NOT AVAILABLE to 99.999999% of the water heater installations.

    Now, though, THE WASTE RECEPTOR'S DRAIN LINE which the T&P discharge pipe drains to may, indeed, discharge to "the outdoors". But that is not the discharge line being discussed, that is a different discharge line.
    Jerry, Chapter 5 Section 504.6 gives you a number of options -- And piping to the outdoors is one of those options.

    Jerry, I have spent most of my summers since Hurricane Katrina plumbing in the Gulf States (Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida and Alabama although not in Texas) for Habitat for Humanity and a number of Catholic charities -- And I assure you most of the slab on grade homes we've rebuilt in Florida have the T&P's piped to the outdoors and were signed off without any issues from local inspectors.

    I'm sure you must still have some contacts from your days as a Plumbing Inspector -- Give 'em a call Monday between 8:00 and 8:45 and put the question to them yourself.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    Jerry, Chapter 5 Section 504.6 gives you a number of options -- And piping to the outdoors is one of those options.
    Widdershins,

    That section gives you a number of "options" as you said, BUT ... it also gives you a number of REQUIREMENTS ... and the REQUIREMENTS must be met while selecting the "options" you choose.

    The "requirements" are cast in stone and must be met, the "options" are only optional if they work with the "requirements".

    Jerry, I have spent most of my summers since Hurricane Katrina plumbing in the Gulf States (Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida and Alabama although not in Texas) for Habitat for Humanity and a number of Catholic charities -- And I assure you most of the slab on grade homes we've rebuilt in Florida have the T&P's piped to the outdoors and were signed off without any issues from local inspectors.
    Yep, as I said, that USED TO BE the acceptable method, and that it is NO LONGER acceptable, that the T&P is REQUIRED to discharge in the same space as the water heater is located in.

    When rebuilding is done, short of total gutting and rebuilding, many methods of construction *which were allowed by are not longer allowed* are allowed to remain.

    If the house is a total gut and rebuild - then the AHJ *should* (is required to be code, which does not mean they will do it) make the new installation meet the new code.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Widdershins,

    That section gives you a number of "options" as you said, BUT ... it also gives you a number of REQUIREMENTS ... and the REQUIREMENTS must be met while selecting the "options" you choose.

    The "requirements" are cast in stone and must be met, the "options" are only optional if they work with the "requirements".



    Yep, as I said, that USED TO BE the acceptable method, and that it is NO LONGER acceptable, that the T&P is REQUIRED to discharge in the same space as the water heater is located in.

    When rebuilding is done, short of total gutting and rebuilding, many methods of construction *which were allowed by are not longer allowed* are allowed to remain.

    If the house is a total gut and rebuild - then the AHJ *should* (is required to be code, which does not mean they will do it) make the new installation meet the new code.
    Just out of curiosity, Jerry, do you even know what an air gap as it pertains to this particular section of the code is?

    Do us both a favor, Jerry, call your local Planning & Building Department Monday morning between 8:00 and 8:45 before they go out into the field or between 3:00 and 4:00 in the afternoon and clear this up for yourself.

    Drop me a private message if you need the phone number -- I still have it saved in my phone from the last time we had this discussion.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    Just out of curiosity, Jerry, do you even know what an air gap as it pertains to this particular section of the code is?
    Yes I do know.

    Sounds like you do not know, and that you also do not know what you are talking about in this matter.

    Do us both a favor, Jerry, ...
    Do us all a favor Widdershins and learn what it is that we are talking about, and how to read the code, even when it uses simply words in lists instead of in more complex paragraphs.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Yes I do know.
    I'm all but sure you don't, Jerry.

    In fact, I sent this thread out to Plumbing Inspectors all across the country this morning -- Those who replied complained of neck pain from shaking their heads so much at your ignorance.

    No lie, you really are kind of clueless, Jerry.

    Y'know, you wouldn't be in this pickle if you'd simply taken the 'out' I offered you in my last post.

    BTW, the offer still stands -- Send me a private message and I'll send you contact information, basically a direct line to your local inspectors (Ormand Beach, FL), in exchange for you taking just a few minutes to educate yourself.

    And trust me, in the spirit of fairness, I have deliberately left your local Inspectors out of the loop -- They have no idea just how much of a fool you're making of yourself.

    Also, FYI, line 2 of chapter 5, section 504.6 of the Florida Plumbing code is a continuation of line 1.

    Here's the gist, Jerry; Lines 1 and 2 require that if the T&P is to be discharged into the sanitary sewer, then the T&P must be discharged into a trapped indirect drain, within the same room, and with no less than a 1" air break/air gap.

    And here's why, Jerry -- Protection against cross connection is a given, hence the air gap requirement -- The reasoning behind the same room requirement is that 'Joe Homeowner', with a modicum of good sense, will put 2 and 2 together and make the connection that the water spurting sporadically into his hub drain is coming from his H/W tank.

    It's really that simple, Jerry.

    Why you would choose to complicate it beyond that is an absolute mystery to both myself and any of a number of other Inspectors on my e-mail distribution list.


  32. #32
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    It's really that simple, Jerry.

    Widdernshins,

    Yes, it really is THIS simple - from the 2006 IRC:
    - P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe. The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:
    (Jerry's note: As the above states, the following are the REQUIREMENTS for the discharge pipe - I am listing the REQUIREMENTS first, then the OPTIONS second.)
    - - 1. Not be directly connected to the drainage system.
    - - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
    - - 3. Not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve served and shall discharge full size to the air gap.
    - - 4. Serve a single relief device and shall not connect to piping serving any other relief device or equipment.
    - - 5. Discharge to (Jerry's note: This first part gives OPTIONS, see below where OPTIONS are). Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
    - - 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
    - - 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
    - - 8. Not be trapped.
    - - 9. Be installed to flow by gravity.
    - - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.
    - - 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
    - - 12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
    - - 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.

    Now for the OPTIONS:
    - - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

    Note that 2. comes before 5., and that 2. is a REQUIREMENT while 5. lists OPTIONS.
    - - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
    - - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

    Thus, yes, one MAY discharge the T&P relief valve drain piping to the outdoors ... *IF* the water heater is located outdoors ... *OTHERWISE* the T&P relief valve drain piping is REQUIRED to discharge *through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater*.

    Not sure what your problem in reading that is, nor what problem whoever else you have reading has, but the above is VERY CLEARLY laid out with REQUIREMENTS.

    Have your other people point out the items in the list where I am wrong. Go through the list REQUIRED item by REQUIRED item.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  33. #33
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Yes, it really is THIS simple - from the 2006 IRC:
    Look, Jerry, I have repeatedly offered to put you in touch with the final arbiters in Plumbing code interpretation/compliance in your area. That you've failed to/refuse to do so says a great deal about you.

    The offer still stands.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Sorry guys, I wish somehow I hadn't started this thread.

    In any event, based on everything I have read, including P2803.6.1. 2006 IRC, it seems to me that a reasonable solution so as to be in (semi?) compliance is if the existing ABS (in the side wall) is lowered, perhaps changed over to PVC, re-routed behind the WH and an open drain installed, thereby providing an indirect waste receptor. The TPR would then drain directly into it, with limited bends, via an air gap. Does that sound reasonable? Of course the AHJ would have the final say. Thanks again for all your efforts.

    ip


  35. #35
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Sorry guys, I wish somehow I hadn't started this thread.

    In any event, based on everything I have read, including P2803.6.1. 2006 IRC, it seems to me that a reasonable solution so as to be in (semi?) compliance is if the existing ABS (in the side wall) is lowered, perhaps changed over to PVC, re-routed behind the WH and an open drain installed, thereby providing an indirect waste receptor. The TPR would then drain directly into it, with limited bends, via an air gap. Does that sound reasonable? Of course the AHJ would have the final say. Thanks again for all your efforts.

    ip
    Ian
    You can not go to PVC either It starts to melt at about 73 degrees. You have the right idea.though. If the water heater safety valve were to go off because of malfunction it would melt the PVC and you would have water everywhere. You might go with an indirect drain or go to the floor with an alarm.
    Bruce


  36. #36
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    Look, Jerry, I have repeatedly offered to put you in touch with the final arbiters in Plumbing code interpretation/compliance in your area. That you've failed to/refuse to do so says a great deal about you.

    The offer still stands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Widdernshins,


    Have your other people point out the items in the list where I am wrong. Go through the list REQUIRED item by REQUIRED item.
    That offer still stands too - let them tell US ALL which of the "requirements" are not really "requirements" - I am sure that we ALL would like to know.

    So, have them come here and tell us which requirements are not requirements, and then have them be prepared to explain why they have that position.

    That is really the only thing you need to do, because when you keep saying something which directly goes against the code it falls on flat on its face.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  37. #37
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Jerry,

    My comments are in red


    - - 5. Discharge to (Jerry's note: This first part gives OPTIONS, see below where OPTIONS are). Where in the IRC does this say the below are options?
    Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.
    - - 6. Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.
    - - 7. Discharge to a termination point that is readily observable by the building occupants.
    - - 8. Not be trapped.
    - - 9. Be installed to flow by gravity.
    - - 10. Not terminate more than 6 inches (152 mm) above the floor or waste receptor.
    - - 11. Not have a threaded connection at the end of the piping.
    - - 12. Not have valves or tee fittings.
    - - 13. Be constructed of those materials listed in Section P2904.5 or materials tested, rated and approved for such use in accordance with ASME A112.4.1.


    Now for the OPTIONS:
    - - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

    Again how are getting that the below are options?

    Note that 2. comes before 5., and that 2. is a REQUIREMENT while 5. lists OPTIONS.
    - - 2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater.
    - - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

    Thus, yes, one MAY discharge the T&P relief valve drain piping to the outdoors ... *IF* the water heater is located outdoors ... Where did you pull that statement from? Please explain the IF statement as that makes no sense whatsoever, What you are claiming here is the "CODE" says you can only discharge the T&P line out doors if the water heater is out doors, that is ridiculous.

    *OTHERWISE* the T&P relief valve drain piping is REQUIRED to discharge *through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater*.

    So what you are claiming that if a water heater is indoors the ONLY way to discharge a T&P line is through an air gap located in the same room? What about a Watts 210 Valve???

    I have seen hundreds if not thousands of indoor water heaters that have T&P discharge lines terminating to the exterior.

    Last edited by Mike Inspector; 12-01-2010 at 07:21 PM.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Inspector View Post
    Jerry,
    My comments are in red
    - - 5. Discharge to (Jerry's note: This first part gives OPTIONS, see below where OPTIONS are). Where in the IRC does this say the below are options?


    Read 5. and then ask the question again ... if you need to.

    Here, I'll post it for you and explain it to you: (my explanation is in bold red)
    Now for the OPTIONS:
    - - 5. Discharge to the floor, to an indirect waste receptor or to the outdoors. Where discharging to the outdoors in areas subject to freezing, discharge piping shall be first piped to an indirect waste receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area.

    Those are THREE OPTIONS: 1) "to the floor"; 2) "to an indirect waste receptor"; 3) "or to the outdoors".

    That subsection then goes on to RESTRICT discharging to the outdoor in areas subject to freezing by stating "shall be first piped to an indirect waster receptor through an air gap located in a conditioned area".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    *OTHERWISE* the T&P relief valve drain piping is REQUIRED to discharge *through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater*.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Inspector
    So what you are claiming that if a water heater is indoors the ONLY way to discharge a T&P line is through an air gap located in the same room?


    Yeppers. That be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Inspector
    What about a Watts 210 Valve???
    Ummmm ... Mike ... think about what you just said ... then get back to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Inspector
    I have seen hundreds if not thousands of indoor water heaters that have T&P discharge lines terminating to the exterior.
    Yeppers, just like the rest of us have.

    Did you not read my earlier post?

    [quote=Jerry Peck]The codes *USED TO* require the drain line to discharge to the outdoors or to an indirect waste receptor (such as a floor drain), however, the codes now require the discharge to be *in the same room or space* as the water heater is located in, and, the discharge is allowed to be onto the floor (but is still not allowed to discharge such that it could cause personal injury - "Discharge in a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage.").[/qutoe]

    Mike, what part of "The codes *USED TO* require the drain line to discharge to the outdoors ... " do you not get?

    However, the current codes require many things first, one of which is: "P2803.6.1 Requirements for discharge pipe. The discharge piping serving a pressure-relief valve, temperature relief valve or combination valve shall:
    2. Discharge through an air gap located in the same room as the water heater."

    Ready on the Watts 210 valve yet?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  39. #39
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    the tpr discharge terminates at the air gap. The rest is drainage for the indirect waste receptor. Apples and oranges.


  40. #40
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Jerry
    I don't see how the TPR draining to the floor indoors (required) is not likely to cause either injury or damage, with or without an air gap. The valve is a pressure relief valve and thereby under pressure (with hot - perhaps scalding) water if activated. Seems to me that code requirements preclude themselves, in part anyway. Kinda like a double negative. I'm sure that wasn't the intent of the drafters.

    ip


  41. #41
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    That offer still stands too - let them tell US ALL which of the "requirements" are not really "requirements" - I am sure that we ALL would like to know.
    Nobody said anything about any part of subsection 605.4 not being required, Jerry, not myself or anybody else.

    So, have them come here and tell us which requirements are not requirements, and then have them be prepared to explain why they have that position.
    Jerry, if you aren't willing to accept the detailed explanation of a Licensed Master Plumber and you aren't willing to make a local call to your own local Plumbing Inspectors, then there is no point whatsoever in bringing in more people.

    Two people thinking you're a Jackass is two people too many as it is -- Beckoning more is a disruption I'm not willing to put this Board through.

    However, that should not discourage you from seeking information outside of this forum -- Something I have repeatedly offered to assist you with, BTW.

    That is really the only thing you need to do, because when you keep saying something which directly goes against the code it falls on flat on its face.
    No, Jerry -- The quickest end to this little drama is to call the folks charged with enforcing the code and pick their brains yourself.

    As I've said numerous times already -- Send me a private message and I'll pass on contact information for your local Plumbing Inspectors.


  42. #42
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Jerry
    I don't see how the TPR draining to the floor indoors (required) is not likely to cause either injury or damage, with or without an air gap.
    Ian,

    Precisely one of my pet peeves of things where I think the code is wrong in what it requires or allows.

    The codes used to say that it could not discharge so as to be a nuisance, but that is exactly what they want - they WANT that running water to be NOTICED, and making it a nuisance does exactly that.

    The Chief Plumbing Officials I talked to about it said: "If it was up to us, the water heater would be smack in the center of the living room or dining room and the T&P discharge would discharge right there so no one could miss it." A bit over the top in my opinion, but that was what they want so that the occupants will not miss the T&P discharging water.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  43. #43
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Go Jerry! I don't have any problem interpreting the issues as you have done.

    1) I have little faith in code inspectors to interpret anything correctly. There is too much individual "interpreting" allowed. No checks to counter bribery and "good ole boy" inspections.
    2) Master Plumber: Is this the guy who skipped every academic class (science, chemistry, physics) he could to take shop classes. Learned his trade by following directions from and observing how somebody else who learned the same way whether it was right or wrong but "it's the way it's been done for umpteen years."

    Sorry - I have developed a really poor attitude about contractors, tradespeople, and code inspectors. For every 1 that is good at and cares about their work, there's 100 that aren't worth the paper their license or certification is printed on. (My opinion, not a scientific study or valid statistical sampling)

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

  44. #44
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Interestingly, I contacted the HOA for this particular housing unit today (about 250 duplexes altogether) and according to their records this WH was installed by a 'reputable' local plumbing company. They also installed several more in much the same manner throughout the complex at the same time. Needless to say I crossed them off my referral list.

    I've come to the conclusion that a Watts 210 is really the best and least disruptive answer, with a TPR valve installed elswhere in the system.



    ip


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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Well two sections of the California Plumbing Code have already been quoted and apparently not read.

    The discharge may not be PEX in any form for the first 18".The drainage for the discharge may not be PVC, it MAY be CPVC, however for a threaded transition between copper and CPVC that portion would HAVE to be sc. 80 and maintain an unrestricted 3/4" I/S.

    See previously quoted sections of CPC in two of my earlier posts above. The materials which are allowed are listed but one must read both sections. The application of those sections is dependant on other areas of the CPC and other portions of the California Codes as well.

    The earthquake requirements for California are not made correctly, this includes flexible connections between the storage type water heating device and the hard piping.

    Questionable makeup/combustion air since opening in the door at the top has been boarded up, and the top of the w/h jacket sits higher than the opening to the compartment, closet, or room.

    The suspected or apparent exterior air inlet (pictured from outside) supplying the floor area of appears to have been restricted.

    Last time I checked California still utilized plumbing codes based upon the UPC and had not adopted the plumbing chapters of the IRC, mechanical also IIRC Uniform Codes not I-Codes I believe for at least until next year.

    Local units of government can further restrict but not lessen restrictions of the state-wide code adoptions.

    TPR Valve discharge size restrictions are based on the I/D, NOT the O/D or "trade size". See ASSE/ASTM standards, instructions referenced on the mfg'r of TPRV, and mfg WH instructions.

    I really don't understand why two Floridians are debating 2006 IRC relative to a CALIFORNIA HI inspecting a CALIFORNIA installed fuel-fired storage type water heater, neither of which seem to be familiar with the UPC or UMC??? The Uniform Plumbing Code (even as ammended by CA) is MORE RESTRICTIVE than the I-Codes, this a "higher" standard.

    High sediment water supply easily scales TPRVs. Dribbling, unclosed, and not under sufficient pressure with cross connection/cross-contamination to potable water supply is a Health Hazard.

    Vacuum break needed with outlets lower than WH (older hose bib for example) for those times pressure is not maintained in the water supply (blackouts even suspend the pumping stations for water supply), etc.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-03-2010 at 09:27 AM.

  46. #46
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    I inspected a WH yesterday with at least 5, 45 ells and one 22 in 3/4 copper, literally wrapping around the WH before disappearing into an ABS vent appearing out of the closet wall (on the opposite side of the valve) which may be an approved discharge point in 1978. The WH was a newer install located in a laundry in the center of the building. I reported it as having too many restrictions (all the bends) but could see no real alternative, short of cutting through a slab to run straighter pipe outside - not a cost effective solution. A Watts 210 could be installed but that doesn't resolve the restrictive piping issue Anyone else have any ideas/opinion?. Many thanks...

    ip

    Ian,

    San Diego County allows T&P discharge lines to terminate into ABS drains as long as there is an air gap. Condos in San Diego County do it all the time, especially in the laundry room they terminate into the washer drain. Manufactures recommend no more than 4 90 degree elbow2 with a discharge line less than 30 feet in length.


  47. #47
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    That is because the indirect waste receptor is part of the drainage system and can be of any material allowed for sanitary drainage like H G said the t&p line stops at the waste receptor with a air gap.


  48. #48
    Mike Inspector's Avatar
    Mike Inspector Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Interestingly, I contacted the HOA for this particular housing unit today (about 250 duplexes altogether) and according to their records this WH was installed by a 'reputable' local plumbing company. They also installed several more in much the same manner throughout the complex at the same time. Needless to say I crossed them off my referral list.

    I've come to the conclusion that a Watts 210 is really the best and least disruptive answer, with a TPR valve installed elswhere in the system.



    ip

    One does not install a TPR valve with a Watts 210 valve only a pressure relief valve gets installed with a Watts 210.


  49. #49
    Widdershins Saunders's Avatar
    Widdershins Saunders Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    I really don't understand why two Floridians are debating 2006 IRC relative to a CALIFORNIA HI inspecting a CALIFORNIA installed fuel-fired storage type water heater, neither of which seem to be familiar with the UPC or UMC??? The Uniform Plumbing Code (even as ammended by CA) is MORE RESTRICTIVE than the I-Codes, this a "higher" standard.
    I'm from Washington State actually, Mr. Watson -- My Florida connection is through my work with Habitat for Humanity and a number of Catholic charities in the Gulf States.

    I also have a number of connections with Florida's Coastal Plumbing Inspectors through my membership in IAPMO, the UPC Code Development Committee, ANSI, ICC and the ICC Code Development Committee.

    As for the UPC being more restrictive than the IRC, which is essentially a dumbed down version of the IPC, you are correct.

    The irony here, is that the 2007 amended release of the 2003 IPC was deliberately dumbed down to ensure that enough prospective apprentices passed the exam to fulfill the regions requirements.

    Yes, that's just how desperate the situation was -- We were in a housing boom, afterall.

    The IPC is a joke, always has been -- OTOH, it *IS* the dominant code.


  50. #50
    Chad Fabry's Avatar
    Chad Fabry Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Watson and Saunders; two folks (maybe one) arguing code whilst comfortably concealed behind a curtain of comfortable anonymity.

    What an unusual state of affairs. Oddly, I'm not moved to confirm the statements of either.


  51. #51
    Widdershins Saunders's Avatar
    Widdershins Saunders Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Go Jerry! I don't have any problem interpreting the issues as you have done.
    Your inability to comprehend the most basic nuances of the English language has been duly noted.

    1) I have little faith in code inspectors to interpret anything correctly. There is too much individual "interpreting" allowed. No checks to counter bribery and "good ole boy" inspections.
    And yet most of the Code Inspectors plying their trade have had to sit for exams that make the exams you had to take to receive your Inspection Credentials seem like a week in the Caribbean.

    Seriously -- Inspectors are indemnified. Bribery is like pissing in the wind.

    These guys and gals are fully protected by both Law and Charter -- You can offer them money if you like, but it isn't going to effect how they rule.

    I think you're confusing Municipal Inspectors with privately funded Inspectors. During the housing boom, a number of municipalities allowed privately funded Inspectors to sign off on jobs -- A huge mistake, BTW, one this country will be paying for for the next 40 years.

    2) Master Plumber: Is this the guy who skipped every academic class (science, chemistry, physics) he could to take shop classes. Learned his trade by following directions from and observing how somebody else who learned the same way whether it was right or wrong but "it's the way it's been done for umpteen years."
    That's funny. Holding degrees in Behavioral Sciences, Chemistry and Clinical Psychology from the University of Washington, I imagine I'm far better 'edjumacated' than you and most of your peers.

    No big deal, actually -- Although it should be noted that these degrees were made possible on the pay of a Plumbers Apprentice in the mid 80's -- No student loans to repay, If you catch my meaning.

    Sorry - I have developed a really poor attitude about contractors, tradespeople, and code inspectors
    .

    Y'know, the irony here is that you have your nose stuffed so far up Jerry's arse you can't smell the sawdust and the wood chips.

    Clue time, Stuart -- Jerry is a retired General Contractor.

    For every 1 that is good at and cares about their work, there's 100 that aren't worth the paper their license or certification is printed on. (My opinion, not a scientific study or valid statistical sampling)
    Well, I really appreciate you qualifying your bigotry, Stuart.

    Y'know, I interface with a Home Inspector at least once a month, more before the housing bubble burst -- And I can say without any hesitation that a good 95% of them are good people just trying to make an honest living.

    The majority recognize that their limited experience is derived almost exclusively from classrooms and labs and that there is no substitute for practical knowledge.

    Who knows, maybe they're shining me on, but most seem to appreciate the visceral experiences of Tradespeople.

    You're a 5 percenter, Stuart, as is Jerry -- No big deal, actually.


  52. #52
    Widdershins Saunders's Avatar
    Widdershins Saunders Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Fabry View Post
    Watson and Saunders; two folks (maybe one) arguing code whilst comfortably concealed behind a curtain of comfortable anonymity.

    What an unusual state of affairs. Oddly, I'm not moved to confirm the statements of either.
    My name is Steven Saunders, Chad -- Google away and drop me a line sometime.

    I am in the 'BOOK', afterall.


  53. #53
    Widdershins Saunders's Avatar
    Widdershins Saunders Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    I inspected a WH yesterday with at least 5, 45 ells and one 22 in 3/4 copper, literally wrapping around the WH before disappearing into an ABS vent appearing out of the closet wall (on the opposite side of the valve)
    They don't make 22's (22.5's, actually) in 3/4" copper tube size, Ian.

    Never have and never will.

    HTH's.


  54. #54
    Widdershins Saunders's Avatar
    Widdershins Saunders Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Inspector View Post
    One does not install a TPR valve with a Watts 210 valve only a pressure relief valve gets installed with a Watts 210.
    These folks don't get it, Mike -- And they never will.


  55. #55
    Bruce Adams's Avatar
    Bruce Adams Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    This one needs to end. To much name calling that is doing no one any good. The code inspector and the home inspector have two different different job and they both have there place. And there are good and bad in both. We do not need to be calling each other names. Ian got the information he needed.
    Bruce


  56. #56
    Widdershins Saunders's Avatar
    Widdershins Saunders Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Inspector View Post
    Ian,

    San Diego County allows T&P discharge lines to terminate into ABS drains as long as there is an air gap. Condos in San Diego County do it all the time, especially in the laundry room they terminate into the washer drain. Manufactures recommend no more than 4 90 degree elbow2 with a discharge line less than 30 feet in length.

    Here's the rub, Mike -- Neither Jerry or Ian understands that the airgap requirement presupposes that an indirect drain has been provided (they don't understand what an airgap is).

    All of the dominant Plumbing codes throughout the US (UPC, IPC and SPC) include provisions for the introduction of T&P discharge into the Sanitary Sewer -- Yet not one of the three dominant codes specifically requires that an indirect drain be provided -- Hence the options of plumbing the discharge to the outdoors or to the floor of the H/W tanks location.

    Let me reiterate -- Not one of the three dominant Plumbing codes in force in the US can or does specifically require you to to provide an indirect drain for the purpose of capturing the discharge from a T&P relief valve.

    It's really that simple.


  57. #57
    Widdershins Saunders's Avatar
    Widdershins Saunders Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Adams View Post
    This one needs to end. To much name calling that is doing no one any good. The code inspector and the home inspector have two different different job and they both have there place. And there are good and bad in both. We do not need to be calling each other names. Ian got the information he needed.
    Bruce
    I agree, to a point.

    You have a regular contributor to this forum who bills himself as the 'Code Man'.

    If he's wrong about this, and he is, then what else has he been wrong about?

    And for the sake of clarity -- I was invited to this forum.

    It seems some are weary of hearing the same nonsense repeated ad infinitum.


  58. #58
    Chad Fabry's Avatar
    Chad Fabry Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    My name is Steven Saunders, Chad -- Google away and drop me a line sometime.

    I am in the 'BOOK', afterall.
    Steven, forgive me, but there are so many folks calling themselves "Steven Saunders", please forward me your contact info.

    I digress... is "afterall" really a word or are you screwing with me?


  59. #59
    Widdershins Saunders's Avatar
    Widdershins Saunders Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Steven, forgive me, but there are so many folks calling themselves "Steven Saunders", please forward me your contact info.
    Drop me a private message and I'll forward you my contact information -- Please be considerate of the time zone differences and my work schedule.

    I digress... is "afterall" really a word or are you screwing with me?
    I dropped a keystroke.

    Please forgive me (I'm screwing with you now, BTW).


  60. #60
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    Clue time, Stuart -- Jerry is a retired General Contractor.

    Seems that Widdershins is the clueless one.

    Yes, I am a retired General Contractor - AND I am a retired Home Inspector - AND I am an ACTIVE code inspector for Building, Mechanical, Electrical, ... and, yeah, and Plumbing too ... both commercial and residential. Oh, and Coastal Construction, and 1&2 Family Dwellings, and ...

    Oh, I am also an ACTIVE Building Plans Examiner, and ...

    Oh, and I am also an ACTIVE construction consultant who may one day be called to save Widdershins butt ... nail him.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  61. #61
    Widdershins Saunders's Avatar
    Widdershins Saunders Guest

    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Seems that Widdershins is the clueless one.

    Yes, I am a retired General Contractor - AND I am a retired Home Inspector - AND I am an ACTIVE code inspector for Building, Mechanical, Electrical, ... and, yeah, and Plumbing too ... both commercial and residential. Oh, and Coastal Construction, and 1&2 Family Dwellings, and ...

    Oh, I am also an ACTIVE Building Plans Examiner, and ...

    Oh, and I am also an ACTIVE construction consultant who may one day be called to save Widdershins butt ... nail him.
    That was fascinating, Jerry, but exactly what does it mean?


  62. #62
    Join Date
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    I think i would of recomended a plumber install a drain pan and then that can be piped to the drain in the floor there by eliminating all the bends and still be safe


  63. #63
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    That was fascinating, Jerry, but exactly what does it mean?

    I can only presume that, by you asking that question, it means you either cannot read or do not comprehend what you read ... which goes a long way toward explaining some of your other posts.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  64. #64
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Don't wanna play this game anymore...can I have my ball back, please.

    ip


  65. #65
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    Default Re: TPR pipe

    Quote Originally Posted by Widdershins Saunders View Post
    That was fascinating, Jerry, but exactly what does it mean?
    Widdershins,

    OK. Games over. If you want to convey information---good. If you want to make snide remarks about people----bad. I'm tired of seeing a message from you with, perhaps, one fact---but including blindsiding someone at the same time.

    Let's stop here and try to keep it on a professional level.

    Thanks,

    Rich


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