Thread: What code would this be.

I am interested in your feedback for this scenario.

I had a client who had to by a new thermostat for his forced air gas fired heater.
Its a typical 60,000 btu heater .

The heating company offered him a $200.00 thermostat.
When he asked why they didn't offer a more reasonably
priced thermostat they were told something like this.

By code we have to install a digital - set back thermostat.
So then they called me to find out if that is true.

I told them I wasn't qualified to answer the question but
wold check it out, and that I knew of no code that stipulated that.

Any comments?

mf

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No doubt some kind of "green" requirement, if true. I mean, you do live in California. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Still not very helpful, but in a quick search I did come up with this rather bizarre article from the New York Times:

By FELICITY BARRINGER
Published: January 16, 2008
After an outcry of objections, the California Energy Commission withdrew its proposal to require new buildings in the state to have radio-controlled thermostats that, in a power emergency, could be used to override customers’ temperature settings. Instead of making the proposal part of new state building requirements, the commissioners will discuss the use of the “programmable communicating thermostats” when considering how to manage electrical loads — with the understanding that customers would have the right to refuse to allow the state to override their wishes.

California Energy Commission requires the use of an automatic setback thermostat with clock mechanism . . . for at least two periods within 24 hours.

Just a simple setback thermostat.

If I were an HVAC contractor in Ventura and wanted to stay in business, I would charge $200 to send a technician out to install a $65 stat. It's business, just simple business.

CEC 2007
SUBCHAPTER 7
SECTION 150
MANDATORY FEATURES AND DEVICES
(i) Setback thermostats. All heating and/or cooling systems
other than wood stoves shall have an automatic thermostat
with a clock mechanism or other setback mechanism
approved by the executive director that shuts the system off
during periods of nonuse and that allows the building occupant
to automatically set back the thermostat set points for at least
two periods within 24 hours. Setback thermostats for heat
pumps shall meet the requirements of Section 112 (b)


CEC 2010
SUBCHAPTER 2
SECTION 112 (c)
(c) Thermostats. All unitary heating and/or cooling systems
including heat pumps that are not controlled by a central
energy management control system (EMCS) shall have a setback
thermostat.
1. Setback Capabilities. All thermostats shall have a
clock mechanism that allows the building occupant to
program the temperature set points for at least four periods
within 24 hours. Thermostats for heat pumps shall
meet the requirements of Section 112(b).

Thanks Pete,

It appears you are correct.
And I appreciate your info...........

mf

If I were an HVAC contractor in Ventura and wanted to stay in business, I would charge $200 to send a technician out to install a $65 stat. It's business, just simple business.

That's an interesting comment Rod, and from what I can see you're not far off.
I'd say they are charging about $150.00 or so for that service.

Which I assume takes about 30 minutes to do.

So here's a question for ya.
How much are you charging for a home inspection for a 1,600 SF home
on a slab - circa 1960. About a 100 or 150 more than the HVAC guy
is charging for changing out a thermostat.
Right? about 300 bucks.

So either we are under charging or he is over charging.

mf

Originally Posted by Peter Taheny

CEC 2007
SUBCHAPTER 7
SECTION 150
MANDATORY FEATURES AND DEVICES
(i) Setback thermostats. All heating and/or cooling systems
other than wood stoves shall have an automatic thermostat
with a clock mechanism or other setback mechanism
approved by the executive director that shuts the system off
during periods of nonuse and that allows the building occupant
to automatically set back the thermostat set points for at least
two periods within 24 hours. Setback thermostats for heat
pumps shall meet the requirements of Section 112 (b)


CEC 2010
SUBCHAPTER 2
SECTION 112 (c)
(c) Thermostats. All unitary heating and/or cooling systems
including heat pumps that are not controlled by a central
energy management control system (EMCS) shall have a setback
thermostat.
1. Setback Capabilities. All thermostats shall have a
clock mechanism that allows the building occupant to
program the temperature set points for at least four periods
within 24 hours. Thermostats for heat pumps shall
meet the requirements of Section 112(b).

You have my curiosity piqued, does 112(b) stipulate an intelligent or ramped recovery function for heat pumps?

Here's the section and exception for 112(b)

Both the CEC 2007 and 2010 read the same.

(b) Controls for heat pumps with supplementary electric
resistance heaters. Heat pumps with supplementary electric
resistance heaters shall have controls:
1. That prevent supplementary heater operation when the
heating load can be met by the heat pump alone; and
2. In which the cut-on temperature for compression heating
is higher than the cut-on temperature for supplementary
heating, and the cut-off temperature for
compression heating is higher than the cut-off temperature
for supplementary heating

Exception to Section 112 (b): The controls may
allow supplementary heater operation during:
A. Defrost; and
B. Transient periods such as start-ups and following
room thermostat setpoint advance, if the controls
provide preferential rate control, intelligent recovery,
staging, ramping or another control mechanism
designed to preclude the unnecessary
operation of supplementary heating.

Thanks Peter.
I'm not in CA but interesting none the less.

Originally Posted by matt faust

So either we are under charging or he is over charging.

mf

Matt, there is a ton of discussion that could reply to that comment. Truth is I am not an HI, I am an HVAC engineer that does mostly commercial work but at one time I owned an HVAC business.

To the point, I see at least an hour commute time and retail price on the stat. And the contractors overhead is probably higher than most HI's. Correct me if I am offbase.

Frankly Home Inspectors should charge more but we ALL charge what the market will bear.

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Still not very helpful, but in a quick search I did come up with this rather bizarre article from the New York Times:

By FELICITY BARRINGER
Published: January 16, 2008
After an outcry of objections, the California Energy Commission withdrew its proposal to require new buildings in the state to have radio-controlled thermostats that, in a power emergency, could be used to override customers’ temperature settings. Instead of making the proposal part of new state building requirements, the commissioners will discuss the use of the “programmable communicating thermostats” when considering how to manage electrical loads — with the understanding that customers would have the right to refuse to allow the state to override their wishes.

Holly (#######) that's all we need is some official shutting down our systems

On a side note I recently had a new start installed the start was given to me by a friend and the company ki called to install it charged $95