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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    ventura, ca
    Posts
    63

    Default What code would this be.

    I am interested in your feedback for this scenario.

    I had a client who had to by a new thermostat for his forced air gas fired heater.
    Its a typical 60,000 btu heater .

    The heating company offered him a $200.00 thermostat.
    When he asked why they didn't offer a more reasonably
    priced thermostat they were told something like this.

    By code we have to install a digital - set back thermostat.
    So then they called me to find out if that is true.

    I told them I wasn't qualified to answer the question but
    wold check it out, and that I knew of no code that stipulated that.

    Any comments?

    mf

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    Matt Faust
    Real Estate Inspector

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: What code would this be.

    No doubt some kind of "green" requirement, if true. I mean, you do live in California. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
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    Default Re: What code would this be.

    Still not very helpful, but in a quick search I did come up with this rather bizarre article from the New York Times:

    By FELICITY BARRINGER
    Published: January 16, 2008
    After an outcry of objections, the California Energy Commission withdrew its proposal to require new buildings in the state to have radio-controlled thermostats that, in a power emergency, could be used to override customers’ temperature settings. Instead of making the proposal part of new state building requirements, the commissioners will discuss the use of the “programmable communicating thermostats” when considering how to manage electrical loads — with the understanding that customers would have the right to refuse to allow the state to override their wishes.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    389

    Default Re: What code would this be.

    California Energy Commission requires the use of an automatic setback thermostat with clock mechanism . . . for at least two periods within 24 hours.

    Just a simple setback thermostat.

    If I were an HVAC contractor in Ventura and wanted to stay in business, I would charge $200 to send a technician out to install a $65 stat. It's business, just simple business.

    Last edited by Rod Butler; 11-24-2010 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Spelling

  5. #5
    Peter Taheny's Avatar
    Peter Taheny Guest

    Default Re: What code would this be.

    CEC 2007
    SUBCHAPTER 7
    SECTION 150
    MANDATORY FEATURES AND DEVICES
    (i) Setback thermostats. All heating and/or cooling systems
    other than wood stoves shall have an automatic thermostat
    with a clock mechanism or other setback mechanism
    approved by the executive director that shuts the system off
    during periods of nonuse and that allows the building occupant
    to automatically set back the thermostat set points for at least
    two periods within 24 hours. Setback thermostats for heat
    pumps shall meet the requirements of Section 112 (b)


    CEC 2010
    SUBCHAPTER 2
    SECTION 112 (c)
    (c) Thermostats. All unitary heating and/or cooling systems
    including heat pumps that are not controlled by a central
    energy management control system (EMCS) shall have a setback
    thermostat.
    1. Setback Capabilities. All thermostats shall have a
    clock mechanism that allows the building occupant to
    program the temperature set points for at least four periods
    within 24 hours. Thermostats for heat pumps shall
    meet the requirements of Section 112(b).


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    ventura, ca
    Posts
    63

    Default Re: What code would this be.

    Thanks Pete,

    It appears you are correct.
    And I appreciate your info...........

    mf

    Last edited by matt faust; 11-24-2010 at 03:02 PM.
    Matt Faust
    Real Estate Inspector

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    ventura, ca
    Posts
    63

    Default Re: What code would this be.

    If I were an HVAC contractor in Ventura and wanted to stay in business, I would charge $200 to send a technician out to install a $65 stat. It's business, just simple business.
    That's an interesting comment Rod, and from what I can see you're not far off.
    I'd say they are charging about $150.00 or so for that service.

    Which I assume takes about 30 minutes to do.

    So here's a question for ya.
    How much are you charging for a home inspection for a 1,600 SF home
    on a slab - circa 1960. About a 100 or 150 more than the HVAC guy
    is charging for changing out a thermostat.
    Right? about 300 bucks.

    So either we are under charging or he is over charging.

    mf

    Matt Faust
    Real Estate Inspector

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: What code would this be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Taheny View Post
    CEC 2007
    SUBCHAPTER 7
    SECTION 150
    MANDATORY FEATURES AND DEVICES
    (i) Setback thermostats. All heating and/or cooling systems
    other than wood stoves shall have an automatic thermostat
    with a clock mechanism or other setback mechanism
    approved by the executive director that shuts the system off
    during periods of nonuse and that allows the building occupant
    to automatically set back the thermostat set points for at least
    two periods within 24 hours. Setback thermostats for heat
    pumps shall meet the requirements of Section 112 (b)


    CEC 2010
    SUBCHAPTER 2
    SECTION 112 (c)
    (c) Thermostats. All unitary heating and/or cooling systems
    including heat pumps that are not controlled by a central
    energy management control system (EMCS) shall have a setback
    thermostat.
    1. Setback Capabilities. All thermostats shall have a
    clock mechanism that allows the building occupant to
    program the temperature set points for at least four periods
    within 24 hours. Thermostats for heat pumps shall
    meet the requirements of Section 112(b).
    You have my curiosity piqued, does 112(b) stipulate an intelligent or ramped recovery function for heat pumps?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  9. #9
    Peter Taheny's Avatar
    Peter Taheny Guest

    Default Re: What code would this be.

    Here's the section and exception for 112(b)

    Both the CEC 2007 and 2010 read the same.

    (b) Controls for heat pumps with supplementary electric
    resistance heaters
    . Heat pumps with supplementary electric
    resistance heaters shall have controls:
    1. That prevent supplementary heater operation when the
    heating load can be met by the heat pump alone; and
    2. In which the cut-on temperature for compression heating
    is higher than the cut-on temperature for supplementary
    heating, and the cut-off temperature for
    compression heating is higher than the cut-off temperature
    for supplementary heating

    Exception to Section 112 (b): The controls may
    allow supplementary heater operation during:
    A. Defrost; and
    B. Transient periods such as start-ups and following
    room thermostat setpoint advance, if the controls
    provide preferential rate control, intelligent recovery,
    staging, ramping or another control mechanism
    designed to preclude the unnecessary
    operation of supplementary heating.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: What code would this be.

    Thanks Peter.
    I'm not in CA but interesting none the less.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    389

    Default Re: What code would this be.

    Quote Originally Posted by matt faust View Post

    So either we are under charging or he is over charging.

    mf
    Matt, there is a ton of discussion that could reply to that comment. Truth is I am not an HI, I am an HVAC engineer that does mostly commercial work but at one time I owned an HVAC business.

    To the point, I see at least an hour commute time and retail price on the stat. And the contractors overhead is probably higher than most HI's. Correct me if I am offbase.

    Frankly Home Inspectors should charge more but we ALL charge what the market will bear.

    Last edited by Rod Butler; 11-30-2010 at 01:51 PM. Reason: grammar correction

  12. #12
    John Harrison's Avatar
    John Harrison Guest

    Default Re: What code would this be.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Still not very helpful, but in a quick search I did come up with this rather bizarre article from the New York Times:

    By FELICITY BARRINGER
    Published: January 16, 2008
    After an outcry of objections, the California Energy Commission withdrew its proposal to require new buildings in the state to have radio-controlled thermostats that, in a power emergency, could be used to override customers’ temperature settings. Instead of making the proposal part of new state building requirements, the commissioners will discuss the use of the “programmable communicating thermostats” when considering how to manage electrical loads — with the understanding that customers would have the right to refuse to allow the state to override their wishes.
    Holly (#######) that's all we need is some official shutting down our systems

    On a side note I recently had a new start installed the start was given to me by a friend and the company ki called to install it charged $95


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