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  1. #1

    Default condensate trap not necessary

    The installation instructions for a Carrier model CNPVP evap coil states that a condensate trap is not necessary, does anyone know of other makes or models that make this statement? (other than those equipped with internal traps)

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    Default Re: condensate trap not necessary

    Quote Originally Posted by John Goad View Post
    The installation instructions for a Carrier model CNPVP evap coil states that a condensate trap is not necessary, does anyone know of other makes or models that make this statement? (other than those equipped with internal traps)
    Gary,

    Did you read the entire paragraph?

    A trap is not necessary, but ... not installing a trap will lead to a loss of efficiency (says so in the installation instructions), and being as that system is rated as a 13,14,15, etc., SEER, that SEER rating has been voided and is no longer relevant (says says in the installation instructions where it says not installing a trap will lead to a loss of efficiency - no trap and the tested SEER rating is gone ).

    I've had several contractor putting in those units recently and they know I am big on the proper traps, so they point out that it says a trap is not necessary ... so I point out that no trap means a loss of efficiency - says so right here, so ... provide me with engineering which says IT STILL meets the rated SEER rating or put a trap in the condensate line.

    To date, they have ALL gone back to putting traps in the condensate line.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: condensate trap not necessary

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Gary,

    Did you read the entire paragraph?

    A trap is not necessary, but ... not installing a trap will lead to a loss of efficiency (says so in the installation instructions), and being as that system is rated as a 13,14,15, etc., SEER, that SEER rating has been voided and is no longer relevant (says says in the installation instructions where it says not installing a trap will lead to a loss of efficiency - no trap and the tested SEER rating is gone ).

    I've had several contractor putting in those units recently and they know I am big on the proper traps, so they point out that it says a trap is not necessary ... so I point out that no trap means a loss of efficiency - says so right here, so ... provide me with engineering which says IT STILL meets the rated SEER rating or put a trap in the condensate line.

    To date, they have ALL gone back to putting traps in the condensate line.
    B.S. and hogwash on your "SEER" rating. A leak for airflow is a leak for airflow, period.

    That SEER rating does not get "voided", What the Heck Peck, are you trying to talk about?

    A SEER rating for the condensor and evaporator is for a laboratory setting with a defined set of applied laboratory "seasonal" factors. Installing anywhere but the controlled laboratory setting stipulated for the testing will result in a different S(easonal) E(nergy) E(fficiency) R(atio). Weather patterns change, different locations experience different weather conditions ("seasonal") No two places will experience the same condiitons, no field installation will meet laboratory testing conditions UNLESS a controlled laboratory scenario.

    Those SEER ratings are for comparing equipment to equipment in the laboratory setting (and defined "season") they do not reflect effiective field installed adjusted and expected actual performance anywhere but in the controlled environment of the proscribed laboratory testing conditions.

    See: "Get the FACTS about SEER..." linked here: http://www.advancedenergy.org/buildi...s_bulletin.pdf

    and attached below.

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    Default Re: condensate trap not necessary

    Wappin' Watson,

    As stated, I give them all the option to prove that THE EFFICIENCY IS NOT AFFECTED (and the installation instructions state that the efficiency is affected).

    Watson, Poor Dear, from your link (bold and underlining is mine)
    "
    SEER ratings are determined in
    a laboratory where the exact set
    of indoor and outdoor
    conditions–specified by the US
    Department of Energy–are
    guaranteed to exist. Because
    each piece of cooling equipment
    is evaluated using the exact
    same conditions, the SEER
    rating can be used in comparing
    the performance of equipment
    from different manufacturers.
    "

    Not having a trap CHANGED that "exact set of indoor and outdoor conditions" ... says so right in the installation instructions.

    The equipment is evaluated using the exact same conditions - and the installation instructions tells you that if you do not install the trap ... those conditions have changed and there will be a loss of efficiency.

    "
    Many people know that SEER
    ratings are important in
    selecting equipment. What
    most people don’t realize is
    that the HVAC contractor has
    a major role in making
    equipment perform up to its
    real capabilities in the home
    environment. Knowing the
    SEER FACTS can help!
    "

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: condensate trap not necessary

    No trap on the main or overflough there is a 1 1/2 (approx) inch hole in the side of the unit blowing conditioned air into the attic or wherever. In the case of the south it is almost always the attic. None the less the seasonal energy efficiency goes down the drain if you remove the efficiency bu blowing that conditioned air into the attic. After all the seer rating IS for efficiency ratings. Why blow it all away. Homes with 2 systems or thre or four systems it is the equivelant of one large gaping hole in the side of one of the units. Along with the rest of the air leaks that the HVAC folks do not seal up (sorry HVAC folks) you might as well disconnect the main supply line from one of the smaller units and blow all its conditioned air into the attic.

    Tell me. All ofg what I said is undisputable. A simple fact. Why would it not affect the sesonal energy efficiency rating ..... or ..... the systems efficiency. Which I believe it is the entire idea behind making MORE EFFICIENT units by law. The law being in the 13 seer range.

    Not only should they be there but in the winter when the heat is on there should be oil in the traps to keep the air from blowing into the attic.

    Heat pumps, some will state are neutral at drawing or blowing air or something like that. Hog wash.

    Put the traps in. The overflow line should be filled will oil all year as the unit, properly serviced, should not be getting the main drain lined clogged and with out oil it will still blow air out.

    I am a believer in a float cut off swicth in the overflow line hole. This way if the water does back up to the overflow it will shut the unit off alerting the home owner that service is needed.


  6. #6

    Default Re: condensate trap not necessary

    I didn't find anything about a loss of efficiency in the installation instructions they sent me, I want it to be in there, but am not seeing it.

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    Default Re: condensate trap not necessary

    Quote Originally Posted by John Goad View Post
    I didn't find anything about a loss of efficiency in the installation instructions they sent me, I want it to be in there, but am not seeing it.
    John,

    Those are different than the new Carrier installation instructions I've seen (the ones I've seen are for their air handler units, not just evaporator coils) - I don't see the reference to loss of efficiency in that installation instructions either.

    Another oddity to note is that the air handler installation instructions I see specifically state *not* to use "running traps" and that installation instruction you posted specifically *shows* a "running trap".

    Note further down, at "NOTE:" that if an auxiliary drain pan is used, the secondary condensate drain line is required to be trapped - go figure?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: condensate trap not necessary

    Semantics is all. I read what it said about condestate drains and traps. All baloney

    If this and if that and for further protection add this.

    Whae it all comes down to it every promary and secondary (which are needed) need to be trapped and there is no question about it.

    Manufacturers specs and codes and what ever you want to talk about is not going to change that fact.

    Not just my opinion. Just a fact.

    There has never been a builder or for that matter an HVAC company that does not add secondary drain lines or traps when all I do it tell them to stick their hand in front of any of the drain lines and multiple other areas around the unit where the air is blowing out just as in the pictures I put in every report that has this problem. They walk up to the unit, feel air blowing out everywhere I showed them in my pictures and they fix it. Hands down. Every system I have inspected and recommended (where the client bought the home) has been done this way for very good reason, Throw away the specs on this one or any one. No matter where a system is placed it needs primary and secondary drains and traps.

    John

    Cut a whole in the side of any air handler at about an 1 1/2 inches or the equivalent of all air leaks you find in a unit and tell me why you need it in the specs to fix it or need it in the specs telling you that there will be a loss of efficiency.

    End of example.


  9. #9
    Binford Tools's Avatar
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    Default Re: condensate trap not necessary

    Quote Originally Posted by John Goad View Post
    The installation instructions for a Carrier model CNPVP evap coil states that a condensate trap is not necessary, does anyone know of other makes or models that make this statement? (other than those equipped with internal traps)
    I have only seen furnaces with internal traps. All the HVAC coils (here) have an external traps that I have seen. As Peck noted without a trap you have a 3/4" hole in your plenum blowing air to the outside.

    I found that A-coil on the www, but it says to have a trap.

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    Default Re: condensate trap not necessary

    Quote Originally Posted by Binford Tools View Post
    I have only seen furnaces with internal traps. All the HVAC coils (here) have an external traps that I have seen. As Peck noted without a trap you have a 3/4" hole in your plenum blowing air to the outside.

    I found that A-coil on the www, but it says to have a trap.
    After the typical 30-40' of 3/4 pvc and 3-4 elbows, I've always had to hold a flame infront of the opening to tell if it was blowing or sucking. It is a loss, but not like a hole in the side of the cabinet.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: condensate trap not necessary

    I changed out my p-traps to these waterless traps earlier this year after I found a crack in a p-trap after a cold winter.

    These work very well, no air loss and are easy to clean.

    Airtec, EZ Trap Waterless Condensate Traps

    I put "regular" p-traps filled with mineral oil on the secondaries.

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

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