Thread: Installed For the Long Haul

I think whoever installed this air handler believes they last forever. This one isn't coming out any time soon. It is located above a panel on the ceiling of a bedroom closet.

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Yeah, builders and a/c contractors are not always the brightest bulbs in the box.

They have the home warranty - no need to worry. :-)

.............the installer builds doll houses as his hobby--all you have to do is lift off the roof to get at the innards............Greg.

Spreads the work for replacement to the other trades, an economy builder.

Have you been working on cars in last decade? Designed for building but not easy replacement.

Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski

I think whoever installed this air handler believes they last forever. This one isn't coming out any time soon. It is located above a panel on the ceiling of a bedroom closet.

Trane lasts forever

I've seen installs like that around. I always recommend removal and proper re-installation. Back in the fall I did an 18 unit apartment building where most of the furnaces on the 2nd and 3rd floor units were installed like that over the kitchen. The framing was really poor. I had visions of the framing eventually coming loose due to vibration and coming down on someone doing the dishes.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

They have the home warranty - no need to worry. :-)

I've often wondered how many times a day, especially a busy day that I hear how the home warranty gods will solve the already deficient conditions of the home. "Water heater doesn't work... we'll call the home warranty the day after closing "

I mean, I'm fairly certain my teenage son can easily grasp the concept of indemnification... if it's working and it breaks, it may be covered. *May*

If it was deficient at the onset, it likely wouldn't be covered..

capeesh??

Since the Traine AH system breaks down into sections, panels, componants in place, as it is installed similarly, and can be removed/replaced in that manner, I don't understand the complaint.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Since the Traine AH system breaks down into sections, panels, componants in place, as it is installed similarly, and can be removed/replaced in that manner, I don't understand the complaint.

.
If that's the case when the Air Handler needs replaced the owner would be restricted to Replacement with the same size and brand of equipment.
.

M1305.1 Appliance access for inspection service, repair and replacement. Appliances shall be accessible for inspection, service, repair and replacement without removing permanent construction, other appliances, or any other piping or ducts not connected to the appliance being inspected, serviced, repaired or replaced. A level working space at least 30 inches deep and 30 inches wide (762 mm by 762 mm) shall be provided in front of the control side to service an appliance. Installation of room heaters shall be permitted with at least an 18-inch (457 mm) working space. A platform shall not be required for room heaters.

M1305.1.2 Appliances in rooms. Appliances installed in a compartment, alcove, basement or similar space shall be accessed by an opening or door and an unobstructed passageway measuring not less than 24 inches (610 mm) wide and large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance in the space, provided there is a level service space of not less than 30 inches (762 mm) deep and the height of the appliance, but not less than 30 inches (762 mm), at the front or service side of the appliance with the door open.

M1305.1.3 Appliances in attics. Attics containing appliances requiring access shall have with an opening and a clear and unobstructed passageway large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance, but not less than 30 inches (762 mm) high and 22 inches (559 mm) wide and not more than 20 feet (6096 mm) long when measured along the centerline of the passageway from the opening to the appliance. The passageway shall have continuous solid flooring in accordance with Chapter 5 not less than 24 inches (610 mm) wide. A level service space at least 30 inches (762 mm) deep and 30 inches (762 mm) wide shall be present along all sides of the appliance where access is required. The clear access opening dimensions shall be a minimum of 20 inches by 30 inches (508 mm) by 762 mm), where such dimensions are large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance.

Notice the above all have one thing in common - removal of the appliance with no allowance given for having to dis-assemble the appliance to get it out.

LOL. Its not a singular contained appliance. Its an Assembly of smaller componants, assembled and installed in place.

Well good luck to whoever gets to do the work on it and replace it piece by piece. It will be a headache for somebody and it won't be me.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

LOL. Its not a singular contained appliance. Its an Assembly of smaller componants, assembled and installed in place.

LOL. It is a single appliance.

ALL "appliances" are "an Assembly of smaller componants". And those assembled components make *one* "appliance", and it is listed and labeled as *one* appliance.

An to the contrary of what you stated "assembled and installed in place" that was installed as one pre-assembled unit prior to the installation of the framing installed around it at a later date.

No it wasn't, it was installed in at least two sections, one before the other, first installing the componants therein. The second section folds after the rack is removed from the front.

The only access clearance necessary is as shown. The item is not installed in an attic, it is in a closet alcove suspended and supported from the ceiling.

Although the switch box should be relocated, as it and its wiring would likely have to be deactivated and/or moved/removed to replace the air handler.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

No it wasn't, it was installed in at least two sections, one before the other, first installing the componants therein. The second section folds after the rack is removed from the front.

The only access clearance necessary is as shown. The item is not installed in an attic, it is in a closet alcove suspended and supported from the ceiling.

Although the switch box should be relocated, as it and its wiring would likely have to be deactivated and/or moved/removed to replace the air handler.

.
Your Really Saying this Installation was done AFTER the Shown Framing was in Place.
.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

No it wasn't, it was installed in at least two sections, one before the other, first installing the componants therein. The second section folds after the rack is removed from the front.

.

Sorry, but I've seen that Trane AHU come out of a box, and it's pretty much one big cabinet, before connecting to the plenums. Even if it wasn't, it most certainly is designed to be "one unit" or "one appliance".

Heaven help the tech that needs to do a replacement.

It should be able to be removed (parts replaced) if the opening is that of a standard 22 x 30 attic access. And yes they do come apart. And the attaching screws as designed should all be from one side of the unit.

In my area 90% of the air handler units are found in the attic . When they are originally installed, they are normally put in before drywall (one piece) but replaced as broken down components.

However getting to the components to break them down may be a bugger.

Ever worked on a helicopter? your fingers get used to being in a perpetual state of cramping.

Here's another pic of the unit.

So if we're to believe this unit is installed piece by piece in this cramped ceiling area after the framing and drywall was already in place, and can be removed and replaced in the same manner, how can the supply and return duct plenums be properly attached and sealed to prevent air leakage on the backside, top, and bottom with no working clearances to speak of?

Originally Posted by Larry Morrison

It should be able to be removed (parts replaced) if the opening is that of a standard 22 x 30 attic access. And yes they do come apart. And the attaching screws as designed should all be from one side of the unit.

Larry,

If the "unit" as a whole and single piece is too large to be removed through that "standard 22 x 30 attic access", which is the smallest opening allowed, the code requires the opening size be increased to a size which will allow the removal of the largest appliance.

From my post above:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

M1305.1.3 Appliances in attics. Attics containing appliances requiring access shall have with an opening and a clear and unobstructed passageway large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance, but not less than 30 inches (762 mm) high and 22 inches (559 mm) wide and not more than 20 feet (6096 mm) long when measured along the centerline of the passageway from the opening to the appliance. The passageway shall have continuous solid flooring in accordance with Chapter 5 not less than 24 inches (610 mm) wide. A level service space at least 30 inches (762 mm) deep and 30 inches (762 mm) wide shall be present along all sides of the appliance where access is required. The clear access opening dimensions shall be a minimum of 20 inches by 30 inches (508 mm) by 762 mm), where such dimensions are large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance.

Then I would have to call this out on almost all of the homes here.

I do see the code stating unobstructed passageway large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance... and not "component". So that is a dilemma; as far as what code says and what is really going on. I have watched complete units (appliance) replaced, and those have been taken apart in the attic and the new appliance pieced together in the attic. (normally with engineered wood trusses that would further render a one piece R&R next to impossible or not practicable).

But yes code is code.

They are individual sections, listed, labeled, Mod #, SN# separately.

It is not a singular "appliance". It is not a one-piece AHU cabinet, it is not a furnace.

Componant Mechanical System. It is DESIGNED to be removed in sections after the racks are removed via front only access.

For the second time, it is not installed in an attic.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

.
They are individual sections, listed, labeled, Mod #, SN# separately.

It is not a singular "appliance". It is not a one-piece AHU cabinet, it is not a furnace.

Componant Mechanical System. It is DESIGNED to be removed in sections after the racks are removed via front only access.

.
Is racks a New Terminology for Framing? ( or maybe a kinder gentler term for SCABS)
.

I was on a job where something like this happened. When they fired the furnace the purge fan failed to engage and the heat exchanger blew and split a 12" hole at a seam.

The exchanger had to be pulled from the unit and then re-installed because it was after all of the gyp was installed and painted, the attic insulation in place, wiring etc., were completed. The cabinet was left in place and the components removed and replaced to accomodate the work.

Very messy but it can be done.

I would certainly still call it out and I agree it does not meet the intent of the code.

However, on many large commercial projects the boiler and/or chiller is placed in the basement and cannot be replaced without excavation and saw cutting of the concrete foundation wall.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

They are individual sections, listed, labeled, Mod #, SN# separately.

For the second time, it is not installed in an attic.

And, for the second time, that is one appliance.

By the way, Watson, the conversion drifted attics, so attics were addressed, however, for you, here is the applicable section for THAT installation, and with red highlighting too:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

M1305.1 Appliance access for inspection service, repair and replacement. Appliances shall be accessible for inspection, service, repair and replacement without removing permanent construction, other appliances, or any other piping or ducts not connected to the appliance being inspected, serviced, repaired or replaced. A level working space at least 30 inches deep and 30 inches wide (762 mm by 762 mm) shall be provided in front of the control side to service an appliance. Installation of room heaters shall be permitted with at least an 18-inch (457 mm) working space. A platform shall not be required for room heaters.

M1305.1.2 Appliances in rooms. Appliances installed in a compartment, alcove, basement or similar space shall be accessed by an opening or door and an unobstructed passageway measuring not less than 24 inches (610 mm) wide and large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance in the space, provided there is a level service space of not less than 30 inches (762 mm) deep and the height of the appliance, but not less than 30 inches (762 mm), at the front or service side of the appliance with the door open.

Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino

.Sorry, but I've seen that Trane AHU come out of a box, and it's pretty much one big cabinet, before connecting to the plenums.

Dom,

I've seen them taken out of the box in one piece too. I suspect that Watson is looking at the screws on that access cover and is thinking that is where two components are attached together, but, as stated, that is an access cover - yes, I know, you knew that, but at least one here does not.

Not wanting to poke at the bears in the cage.

The OP shows a unit made up of a lot op pieces assembled together and installed in such a manor that access is not available to all sides. At best you have reasonable access to one side of the installation.

Unlike an attic where you have the opportunity to work from at least three sides and also have the ability to lift or drop the unit within the attic space.

Speaking from the view of the poor slob that has to service the OP unit as it appears, you may be able to replace the blower motor, circuit boards and coil (maybe). If you wanted to remove the entire unit and replace it with a new one (entire unit) looks like it would require removing the drywall (at minimum) to gain enough space to work. Which would not be that bad just more work and cost.

H.G. when you say: "Since the Traine AH system breaks down into sections, panels, componants in place, as it is installed similarly, and can be removed/replaced in that manner, I don't understand the complaint." It is apparent that you haven't ever tried to actually work on something like this in a non theoretical environment. Is it absolutely impossible, no, we have put men on the moon but not realistic. Maybe the new thing is Laparoscopic HVAC.


If for any reason you had to disconnect the duct-work from the plenum I would question how I would be able to get it reset and sealed from the exterior of the unit.

In my previous posts I tried to defend that this unit could be broken down...and yes it could be. But I think I would still call it out to the client for the simple fact that when it will need to be worked on it is going to cost them more in labor than normal and they better hide the women and children when the HVAC guy starts swearing.

I also see no platform

A level working space at least 30 inches deep and 30 inches wide (762 mm by 762
mm) shall be provided in front of the control side to service an appliance.

..for the poor sap to work on the unit and he will need to be standing on a ladder the whole time. This is going to ad to the labor cost.

Yes i would call out the situation to the client as "it will be a pain in the patootee to service".

Originally Posted by Larry Morrison

. . . . . .
Yes i would call out the situation to the client as "it will be a pain in the patootee to service".

To correct this problem from continually happening is going to cost some money. The typical builders are looking to maximize floor space and finish. To add a mechanical room or a basement with duct chases to the attic will eat up floor space and when most homeowners are given the option of an additional closet or a furnace at floor level they will take the closet.

Furnace replacement will always happen to the next guy. Right?

As long as the service panels can be removed and there is proper clearance per mfg spec in front of them the installation is up to code. Trane makes their cabinets 3 sided with supports on the service side. They aren't individual cubes for blower and coil,they make cabinets that can accomodate many different combinations. I'm not saying I would enjoy working on this but I have seen worse.

Originally Posted by David Bell

As long as the service panels can be removed and there is proper clearance per mfg spec in front of them the installation is up to code.

Trane makes their cabinets 3 sided with supports on the service side. They aren't individual cubes for blower and coil,they make cabinets that can accomodate many different combinations.

Let me understand what you said above:
a) You stated that the Trane cabinet is one single appliance cabinet and not individual cubes, right?

b) You also stated that "the installation is up to code", right?

Either a) or b) is wrong, or the code is wrong, and being as we are referring to and talking about the code, the code is not what is wrong - that leaves either a) or b) as what is wrong, and, what you stated in a) is a correct statement, which makes b) the one which is wrong.

If that cannot be removed in one piece, as it is made, then the opening and access does not meet code, which requires the opening and access to be large enough for removal of the largest appliance.

The mixing box is installed in the field after hoisting up and supporting the main unit, which is installed just under the finished ceiling and supported by the poles from the structural ceiling.

The DIY closet decorating beneath which is apparently what you all are concerned about and confused by (attic! bah humbug!) is neither original nor is it "framing" nor does it consistute "ceiling", and does not support the ceiling supported horizontal assembled AHU in the closet.

The lower drywall beneath is adjunct, serves no structure purpose and was obviously not a part of the original construction. You can clearly see that the double door closet opening and access from the floor is more than sufficient working access.

These units require access only from the front to install, service, or remove. The mixing box (R) comes out first. The main AHU front corners are where the poles are supporting from the ceiling. The mixing box ship on the same pallet but not (at least not always, or usually) shipped attached, and if so, is removed when hoisting up the unit to ceiling mount (suspended) until leveled and secured. Vertical wall mounts similarly mixing box not attached when shipped.

And if you're going to remove it, you're also going to pull the coil rack, fan, etc. before you do, thus reducing the weight.

Basic unit components consist of a water coil, condensate drain pan, filter, duct collars, one fan wheel, and motor with drive. Drive components consist of sheaves, belt, and motor. The coil, drain pan, and motor/drive assembly can easily be field-converted from right hand to left hand configurations, or vice-versa.

Have "Sawzall" will travel.

HG,
"...closet decorating beneath which is apparently what you all are concerned about ....is neither original nor is it "framing" nor does it consistute "ceiling", and does not support the ceiling ...."

Not a ceiling. OK a sofit or bulkhead.
Not framing ? OK, shims or extra nailers to attach drywall to.
Not original. OK, added to finish closet.
How did they get it in originally and if you went to replace it what would be done? Cut out the stinking sheetrock then replace unit and replace sheetrock. Why, because you would wast more time messing around and fiddling with the disassembly and reassembly than its worth.

Can it be worked on, I think so. Replacement is another thing. Installed to code originally, probably not. Did it pass the inspection, probably yes. Inspector passed on it, right or wrong to exact code. Why did it pass originally? Some inspectors realize that at times exact code just does not fit a situation and an installation is satisfactory in his eyes. Thats real life, not theoretical.

Will it cost a bit more over time to have the unit placed where it is and have it finished off, yes. Just another joy of home ownership.

There are 3 components here,the blower, the coil and the cabinet. The blower can be romoved from the cabinet thru the service panel. the coil can be removed from the cabinet from the service panel. The cabinet itself may be able to be removed once all other componants are removed, as a 3 sided unit can be folded to a certain extent.

Originally Posted by David Bell

There are 3 components here,the blower, the coil and the cabinet. The blower can be romoved from the cabinet thru the service panel. the coil can be removed from the cabinet from the service panel. The cabinet itself may be able to be removed once all other componants are removed, as a 3 sided unit can be folded to a certain extent.

I am not sure what is so difficult to understand about what the code requirements are, versus what one can do ...

... kind of like that old saying "Attention teenagers 'No.' is a complete sentence." or this one "What part of 'No.' do you not understand?"

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

M1305.1.2 Appliances in rooms. Appliances installed in a compartment, alcove, basement [B]or similar space shall be accessed by an opening or door and an unobstructed passageway measuring not less than 24 inches (610 mm) wide and large enough to allow removal of the largest appliance in the space, ...

The code does not say 'large enough to allow removal of the largest piece the appliance can be disassembled down to', the code say "removal of the LARGEST APPLIANCE".

I know that there are some sections of the code which truly can be mind boggling and difficult to understand what is being said, but ... the above is not one of those code sections.

So ... what part of "removal of the largest appliance" is not understandable?