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  1. #1
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    Default Gray Sch40 piping

    Gray sch40 piping glued to white pvc piping for exhausting of a 90% utica boiler. Unit and piping is 7 years old. Is this piping acceptable for this application and can the two be joined?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    Richard

    I believe the pvc is suppose to be schedule 636.

    However I stand to be corrected as I am going on what is required up here in Ontario.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    I would say that is some sort of makeshift set-up. Many of the earlier 90+ units used to come with a few gray PVC fittings from the manufacturer. They were usually an elbow or two and/or trap assembly to get out of the actual furnace cabinet. Once outside the cabinet, you glued the gray to white to make the rest of the vent run. Never any major problems with it that I know of.
    Never seen a unit come with a length of straight pipe though.

    www.aic-chicago.com
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    Assuming NG fired condensing boiler...

    Depends on what the identifying plastic type and construction type of "pipe", the ASTM markings on the Vent, pipe (or conduit!) from the plastic pipe manufacturer and the boiler manufacturer's instructions for the model at the time, the code references made therein, and any bulletins or recalls subsequently issued.

    Not sure why the pvc transition (expanding trade side) fitting is present where what appears to be OTHER than a Vertical Run (camera angle/position is perhaps misleading?). CPVC D1784 sections & coupling for at least first five feet out would have been provided with the boiler by Utica. Thereafter on condensing boiler, depends.

    Some plastics are chemically (solvent/cement) welded (ex. PVC), some are glued/cemented (ex. ABS). Different plastics have different contraction/expansion rates, many may not be directly interconnected via "glue", "cement" or "caulk".

    P.S. Boiler is in the basement? Is that red high temp caulk on the plastic? Caulk is not solvent/cement. Where is the manual? What does it and the subsequent the bulletins say?

    Utica Boilers | News

    6/7 yrs ago language similar:

    COMBUSTION AIR AND VENT PIPE REQUIREMENTS
    This boiler requires a dedicated direct vent system. In a direct vent system, all air for combustion is taken directly from outside atmosphere, and all flue products are discharged to outside atmosphere.

    Combustion air and vent pipe connections must terminate together in the same atmospheric pressure zone, either through the roof or sidewall (roof termination preferred). See Fig. 9 & 10 for required clearances.

    WARNING

    When vent pipe is exposed to temperatures below freezing, such as when it passes through an unheated space or when a chimney is used as a raceway, vent pipe must be insulated with 1/2" Armaflex or equivalent. In extreme cold climate areas, use 3/4" Armaflex or equivalent.

    Combustion air must be clean outdoor air. Combustion air must not be taken from inside structure because that air frequently is contaminated by halogens, which include fluorides, chlorides, phosphates, bromides and iodides. These elements are found in aerosols, detergents, bleaches, cleaning solvents, salts, air fresheners, paints, adhesives and other household products.
    Locate combustion air inlet as far away as possible from swimming pool and swimming pool ppump house.

    All combustion air and vent pipes must be airtight and watertight. Combustion air and vent piping must also terminate exactly as shown in Fig. 9 or 10.

    Vent connections serving appliances vented by natural draft shall not be connected into any portion of mechanical draft systems operating under positive pressure.

    Solvent cements are combustible. Keep away from heat, sparks, and open flame. Use only in well ventilated areas. Avoid breathing in vapor or allowing contact with skin or eyes.

    FAILURE TO FOLLOW THE AFOREMENTIONED WARNINGS COULD RESULT IN FIRE, PROPERTY DAMAGE, PERSONAL INJURY, OR DEATH.

    For boilers connected to gas vents or chimneys, vent installations shall be in accordance with part 7, Venting of Equipment, of the National Fuel Gas Code, ANSI 2223.1-latest revision, CAN/CGA-B 149.1 and B 149.2, or applicable provisions of the local building code.

    These boilers require a dedicated direct vent system. All air for combustion is taken directly from outdoors through the combustion air intake pipe. All flue products are discharged to the outdoors through the vent pipe.
    Older mfg'r references:

    Combustion air and vent pipe fittings must comform to American National Standards Institute (ANSI) standards and American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) standards D1784 (Schedule-40 CPVC), D1785 (Schedule-40 PVC), D2665 (PVC-DWV), D2241 (SDR-21 and SDR-26 PVC), D2661 (ABS-DWV), or F628 (schedule-40 ABS). Pipe cement and primer must conform to ASTM standards D2564 (PVC) or D2235 (ABS).


    My Note: I know of no ABS pipe or fitting manufacturer who has subjected their product for testing to be used as special gas vent pipe.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-11-2012 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Added link to Mfg's product literature source and sample language (unknown model) from the vintage.

  5. #5
    David Bell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    The gray fitting looks more like schedule 80 than 40. Gray schedule 80 PVC is often used in industrial applications.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    Not Ultra Vent was it?


  7. #7
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
    Garry Blankenship Guest

    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    I doubt the electrical industry has an exclusive on gray, but it is the only color I have ever seen used for electrical PVC. Using PVC or any plastic composite for air conveyence, ( exhaust or otherwise ), seems counter to health concerns to me.


  8. #8
    Daniel Leung's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    The grey colour vent pipe is CPVC, please see the difference to the white PVC as listed on System 636 PVC / CPVC Flue Gas Piping

    System 636 PVC Vent Piping
    System 636 PVC is classified as Type BH Class IIA vent suitable for use on appliances with flue gas temperatures up to and including 65ºC.
    PVC sizes include 1-1/2", 2", 2-1/2", 3" and 4". Coloured white with unique blue certification markings, System 636 PVC pipe is made to sturdy SCH 40 dimensions to provide a strong, rigid pipe for the application. We offer a full range of System 636 PVC vent fittings and accessories.

    System 636 CPVC Vent Piping
    System 636 CPVC is classified as Type BH Class IIB vent suitable for use on appliances with flue gas temperatures up to and including 90ºC.
    CPVC sizes include 1-1/2", 2", 2-1/2", 3", 4", 6" and 8". Coloured grey, System 636 CPVC pipe is also made to sturdy SCH 40 dimensions to be tough enough for the application’s demands. Our full line of System 636 CPVC fittings are available in SCH 80 dimension


  9. #9
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
    Garry Blankenship Guest

    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Leung View Post
    The grey colour vent pipe is CPVC, please see the difference to the white PVC as listed on System 636 PVC / CPVC Flue Gas Piping

    System 636 PVC Vent Piping
    System 636 PVC is classified as Type BH Class IIA vent suitable for use on appliances with flue gas temperatures up to and including 65ºC.
    PVC sizes include 1-1/2", 2", 2-1/2", 3" and 4". Coloured white with unique blue certification markings, System 636 PVC pipe is made to sturdy SCH 40 dimensions to provide a strong, rigid pipe for the application. We offer a full range of System 636 PVC vent fittings and accessories.

    System 636 CPVC Vent Piping
    System 636 CPVC is classified as Type BH Class IIB vent suitable for use on appliances with flue gas temperatures up to and including 90ºC.
    CPVC sizes include 1-1/2", 2", 2-1/2", 3", 4", 6" and 8". Coloured grey, System 636 CPVC pipe is also made to sturdy SCH 40 dimensions to be tough enough for the application’s demands. Our full line of System 636 CPVC fittings are available in SCH 80 dimension
    No personal offense Daniel, but in this country there are many things legally approved for use that will kill you faster than the "illegal" world. Any poly vinly derivitive / plastic used for the transference of air would be among them. Tobacco is the most obvious, followed by drugs of all inorganic sources, GMOs, CAFO animals, flouride, cloride and on it goes. Legal and safe are unfortunately two different things. If you want to market an unhealthy / hazardous product, it just takes more money.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    Daniel L,

    "System 636" is a ULC (Underwriters Laboratories CANADA) Canadian designation. We don't accept Canadian Standard designations here in the US.

    We don't strictly color code plastic pipe nor do we use the same color codes that you do here in the US.

    We use a completely different color coding system for plastic pipe primer and plastic pipe solvent cements as well. Your color coding system doesn't fly here, AT ALL. as pertains to plastic pipe primers, solvent cements and glues, and frankly most everyting else.

    We don't categorize plastic pipe as you do. We designate ASTM standard markings. Some plastic pipe contains multiple ASTM designations, if submitted tested and approved for same. Special Gas Vent UL Standard is 1738, which requires completely different designations and TESTING standards and temperatures are different (and higher) than what you have in Canada. IIRC you also allow PE for special gas vent.

    The OP is in the US, and the manufacturer would have supplied two CPVC pipe sections appropriately designated with the appropriate ASTM standard designation for special gas pipe venting along with a coupling of the same material. The balance is likely Schedule 40 PVC, we cannot make out the piping desinations, or form of the PVC pipe manufacture.

    System 636 is not a designation which is used or recognized here. We also don't recognize CSA markings or Canadian (sub) standards. Special Gas Vent UL Standard in the US is UL 1738. Not Canadian UL Canada -S636.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-20-2012 at 10:29 PM.

  11. #11
    Daniel Leung's Avatar
    Daniel Leung Guest

    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    Mr. Watson,

    Thank you for letting me know that USA don't accept Canadian Standard. I want to tell you most of the ASTM are welcome here. We don't mind to buy cheap USA products. Many Canadians are happy to do cross-border shopping, I just made one trip this month.

    If you look at my reply, did I promoting CSA? Did I selling ULC System 636 products? No, I didn't. Personally, I prefer the metal venting system.

    I just want to list out what I know about the different of PVC and CPVC gas venting pipes. Thanks for mention the UL 1738 metal vents - but it is off topic - we are discussing the posting of PVC pipes.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    Daniel

    Thanks for the information, I appreciated.

    There is also a lot of replies on this forum which don't apply to Canada, but we will keep that secret to ourselves.

    Cheers,


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Gray Sch40 piping

    Daniel L,

    First of all your Canadian Standard (ULC-S636) DID NOT EXIST SEVEN YEARS AGO, so even IF the OP and the TOPIC DISCUSSION centered around a CANADIAN installation ULC-636 WOULD NOT OTHERWISE APPLY to the HI question!!! Your TSSS, etc. Standards do NOT require removal and replacement of pre-existing special gas venting (even all that awful ABS, polyflex, etc. UNLESS or UNTIL there is a circumstance of repair, replacement, or noted deterioration, failure, leakage, damage, or other qualifying event, which would trigger removal, and then replacement with now (POST 2006) qualified materials.


    The OP indicated a 7 year old BOILER installation, and an installation in the U.S. of A.


    Testing and Listing to UL Standard 1738 is not limited to metallic special gas vent. If it were there would be no need for Chapters outlining the testing procedures & standards for non-metallic venting systems in same (such as):
    36 Strength Test for Joining Non-Metallic Vent Systems;
    37 Low-Temperature Handling Test (Non-Metallic Venting Systems); Etc.

    You could have easily confirmed this yourself by checking the Table of Contents for the current Standard. Table of Contents for UL 1738

    I'm not implying that there are non-metallic special gas venting products Listed with UL or another NTL to UL 1738, only saying that there is such a Standard for Testing & Listing of same for the purpose of Cat. II, III, and IV gas-fired appliances actually exists and it is in fact UL 1738.

    IIRC the UL Standard calls for (mandates) a test at 464 deg. F be performed on nonmetallic vent. There are also limitations as to noxious chemical emissions when heated or burned, etc.

    Insofar as your claim that the example mechanical equipment earlier discussed would be have to be entirely BH vented (Canadian Standard (ULC S636) vent if it had been installed in Canada, that would not be correct. First if it had been installed prior to 2007, it wouldn't have been, and is not required to be changed just for the sake of changing it (unless being replaced or corrected for other reasons). The manufacturer (which knows what the appliance's initital exhaust gas temperature ranges MAY BE) specifies a minimum length, diameter, and DISTANCE FROM THE APPLIANCE (both horizontally and vertically) of CPVC (your Class B - 90 deg. C/194 deg. F) and that the remainder (exhaust and intake) may be vented with PVC (your Class A).

    The limitation instruction of the manufacturer for both intake and exhaust connections being CPVC for a certain length/distance is due to transmission of temperature to the immediate interconnections and the immediate environment surrounding the equipment in certain circumstances, not the actual exhaust or inlet air temperatures exceeding 65C/149F.

    The general rule in the US is that we don't accept self-declarations/self-certifications to a Standard. We require independant recognized NTLs perform the standard-required testing and certifications, and the Standards generally don't allow for theoretical ratings, but proven under test conditions. However, we don't require listing to a standard to be able to sell the item, purchase the item, and the use of the item is subject to the approval of the authority having jurisdiction.

    HTH.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-21-2012 at 11:47 AM.

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