Thread: CSST on finished garage wall?

Does anyone know if code allows, or dosent allow, the running of CSST along the finished wall of a garage. This CSST is running from the basement, and
runs along the inside garage wall for about 15' to the furnace. (3' from the floor)
If not allowed, does anyone have a code referance?

Thanks in advance!

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I can't answer your question, sorry. I wanted to know if that is a T-Stat mounted to the cabinet?
Thanks.

Not sure about the CSST but you can't have that open return vent on the side of the furnace. Returns need to be at least 10' away from open combustion sources. And pulling return air from inside the garage?????

I believe running CSST on the surface of the finished wall is no problem, as long as it's properly supported, etc. I guess I'd be concerned if it looked like car doors could be opened into the CSST or something along those lines.

Dave, yes it is. Not allowed?

Yes, I know about the return.
Yes, I know about protective ballards.

The CSST is clamped onto the wall.

Also,
This furnace is only for the garage.

garge furnace should be at least 18" above floor to meet code

cvf

No, The "burners" must be 18" off the floor.

yeah thats what i meant--tired to much report writing--love the thermostat on the side of the furnace--wonder if that gets hot

cvf

Originally Posted by Rich Sumen

Also,
This furnace is only for the garage.

Does the ductwork go through the garage ceiling or across under the garage ceiling, or does it have just one supply at the top of the furnace?

There could be problems with the ductwork going through the ceiling.

Regarding protection of that horizontal run of CSST, that is not allowed to be installed where subject to physical damage unless protected from physical damage, being as that is in a garage and not up high, I think most inspectors would deem that to be subject to physical damage. Even though there is no clear cut guideline for that type of installation I would protect it from physical damage.

Thanks Jerry,
Yes, there is just a main trunk, straight up, just for the garage, casual use.

Thanks again everyone.

As an HI who is not doing a code compliance inspection, I would not need a code reference to identify that CSST location as a dangerous installation.

Originally Posted by Rich Sumen

No, The "burners" must be 18" off the floor.

NO, "IGNITION SOURCES" must be 18" off the floor.

That open return at the floor to the squirel cage fan is an "ignition source" - sucking in that less than 18" vapor dense air to the fan motor kicking on, automatically.

anything with a flame, glow, pizzo, or ARC producing, potential or intentional, shouldn't be w/in 18" of the garage floor.

Sucking in from the FLOOR area for heating in upflow via ht ex. Hmmm. What is the temperature of spontaineous combusiton of gasoline-vapor concentrated air?

See yr mechanical codes sections and manufacturer's instructions.

Plumbing and/or gas codes & mfg instructions will address your protection requirements for CSST.

That hard piped section & valve aren't supported by anything other than the unstable set-on-cement bricks.

The open return is not an ignition source, the lowest electrical switching component is an ignition source, even a circuit board could be considered an ignition source - look at it as though anything electrical could arc and that would be an ignition source.

Simply being an opening through which air is being sucked in by fan does not make an ignition source - that fan will be drawing mixed air, and, yes, it may contribute to an ignition, but by code that is not an ignition source.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The open return is not an ignition source, the lowest electrical switching component is an ignition source, even a circuit board could be considered an ignition source - look at it as though anything electrical could arc and that would be an ignition source.

Simply being an opening through which air is being sucked in by fan does not make an ignition source - that fan will be drawing mixed air, and, yes, it may contribute to an ignition, but by code that is not an ignition source.

Funny that you'd contradict your six-year position on this subject, suddenly now.

The return air fan blower compartment of that furnace is an ignition source that doesn't belong within 18" of the garage floor drawing OPEN air FROM the garage floor zone. So is the cord & plug someone has bootleged onto the furnace instead of hard wiring via a service switch, as its listed for, laying on the floor.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

The return air fan blower compartment of that furnace is an ignition source ...

Funny (NOT!) that you make up things as you go.

The *BLOWER COMPARTMENT* ... that is what you said ... *IS NOT* "an ignition source" as you said it was.

The *ELECTRICAL* within that compartment is an ignition source, any *OPEN FLAME* or *IGNITOR* is an ignition source - but the "blower compartment" is not.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Funny (NOT!) that you make up things as you go.

The *BLOWER COMPARTMENT* ... that is what you said ... *IS NOT* "an ignition source" as you said it was.

The *ELECTRICAL* within that compartment is an ignition source, any *OPEN FLAME* or *IGNITOR* is an ignition source - but the "blower compartment" is not.

The OPEN RETURN from the FLOOR INTO the Squirel Cage FAN - IS an ignition source.

THE FACT THAT THE RETURN IS OPEN TO THE FLOOR and is within 18" IS the PROBLEM - sucking in GAS-VAPORS INTO THE SQUIREL CAGE FAN in the UPFLOW furnace.

The relays are enclosed, they are NOT a problem.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

The OPEN RETURN from the FLOOR INTO the Squirel Cage FAN - IS an ignition source.

Now you are yelling and making yourself look even MORE foolish than you did before.

I will add some red highlighting and see if you see it then:
"The OPEN RETURN from the FLOOR INTO the Squirel Cage FAN - IS an ignition source"

No, "The OPEN RETURN" IS NOT "an ignition source".

THINK, man, THINK.

THE FACT THAT THE RETURN IS OPEN TO THE FLOOR and is within 18" IS the PROBLEM - sucking in GAS-VAPORS INTO THE SQUIREL CAGE FAN in the UPFLOW furnace.

Watson, do you even read what other people write?

*I* agreed that the open return IS a PROBLEM ... however, the open return IS NOT an IGNITION SOURCE.

Think, man, think.

The relays are enclosed, they are NOT a problem.

And you've never seen enclosed relays which have arced and melted the plastic, which have arced at the melted wiring to/from them, which have ... (the list could be made much longer) ...

THINK, man, THINK ... AN OPEN RETURN ... that is what you are insisting is an ignition source ... cannot be an ignition source ... an IGNITION SOURCE is something with a flame, something which arcs, sparks or otherwise can ignite something ignitable - AN OPEN RETURN is ... well, AN OPENING ... sheesh.

This type furnace MAY NOT be installed in this manner.

It requires a SEALED RETURN DUCT which is sourced from a room or area OTHER than where it draws combustion air.

This furance blwer compartment also has limit swich and seal requirements FOR THE SAME REASON.

Yep - the cap and blower fan motor in the squirel cage CAN ignite gasoline vapors = that explosive vapor laden air at the garage floor being SUCKED IN TO that open return and across the Fan motor & cap in that squirel cage.


However, this STUPID DIY HACK Installtion is even more deadly.

If tis garage is attached or when it is entered it (the furance) will likely kill that person effectively as set up it will PREVENT the flue gases from exhausting and SUCK them back in to recirculate.

These type furnaces are NOT EVER allowed to source ventillation air from the ROOM that SUPPLIES THE COMBUSTION and DILLUTION AIR.

This is NOT a GARAGE HEATER or UTILITY ROOM HEATER.

It is NOT ALLOWED to be installed as it is, PERIOD.

The manufacturer's instructions PROHIBITED it by CLEAR "MUST NOT" language in warnings, instructions, location, cautions, DANGER boxes, and by its incorrporation of REQUIREMENTS to ABIDE by the edition of NFGC (NPFA 54) AND by its incorporation of REQUIREMENTS of NFPA 90A and/or 90B & ACCA ducting standards.

Installed as it is - it has turned the "garage" into a execution style GAS CHAMBER - a killing chamber - as it has become a negatibe pressure producing (every blower-fan cycle) ANTI-GRAVITY DRAFTING Carbon Monoxide & Carbon Dioxide SMOTHERING/ASPHYIXATION Kovorkian Killing maching.

It is SPILLAGE PRODUCING NIGHTMARE AS INSTALLED.

Such type residential furances CAN NOT be installed in Garages SOURCING GARAGE AIR as VENTILLATION/return air and to heat the garage or utility space. It is NEVEr allowed to source combustion and make-up/dillution air AND return air from the same SINGULAR space for THIS TYPE EQUIPMENT (non-condensing - non-sealed combustion, gas-fired, warm air furances, duct, gravity vented).

The codes ALWAYS defer to mfg instructions - and ALL manufacturer instructions INCORPORATE the language such as:

In the USA this furnace MUST be installed in accordance with the latest edition of the ANSI Z223.1 booket entitled "Naitonal Fuel Gas Code" (NFPA 54), and the requirements or codes of the local utility or other authority having jurisdiction. In Canada this furance must be installed in accordance with the current CAN/CGA-B149 1& 2 Gas Installation Codes, local plumbing or waste water codes and other applicable codes.

CAUTION
DO NOT take return air from bathrooms, kitchens, furnace rooms, garages, utility/laundry rooms. DO NOT take return air from areas where it can pick-up objectional odors, fumes OR FLAMMABLE VAPORS.

ALL FUEL-BURNING EQUIPMENT MUST BE SUPPLIED WITH AIR FOR FUEL COMBUSTION. SUFFICIENT AIR MUST BE PROVIDED TO AVOID NEGATIVE PRESSURE IN THE EQUIPMENT ROOM OR SPACE.

Its a fumagation killing machine as installed, The more it will cycle/run, colder it gets the more CO and CO2 will recirculate (not exhaust) because it won't be able to exhaust, that open return to the blower will keep recycling and PREVENT DRAFT of the combustion (and incomplete combustion) gases & vapors.

IT WAS OBVIOUS I WAS REFERING TO THE FAN (motor, capacitor, etc.) IN THE SQUIREL CAGE - as the ignition source - which is normally NOT an issue when the DUCTING, especially the RETURN to a side return upflow is SEALED when such a furnace is serving the HOME and is installed in the garage!

You're just twising and selectively quoting BITS OUT OF CONTEXT because you're bored, I'm a favorite target, and no one else will "talk" or "play" with you.

What I said was:

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

NO, "IGNITION SOURCES" must be 18" off

the floor.

That open return at the floor to the squirel cage fan is an "ignition source" - sucking in that less than 18" vapor dense air to the fan motor kicking on, automatically.

anything with a flame, glow, pizzo, or ARC producing, potential or intentional, shouldn't be w/in 18" of the garage floor.

.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

IT WAS OBVIOUS I WAS REFERING TO THE FAN (motor, capacitor, etc.) IN THE SQUIREL CAGE - as the ignition source -

Watson,

It WAS, AND IS OBVIOUS that YOU WERE referring to the OPEN RETURN.

*I* gave you plenty of opportunities to realize that, but you, being Watson, paid NOT ATTENTION to what I was pointing out.

You finally realized how silly your posts sounded after all your chest puffing about the OPEN RETURN being THE "ignition source".

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

That open return at the floor to the squirel cage fan is an "ignition source"

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The open return is not an ignition source, the lowest electrical switching component is an ignition source,

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

The return air fan blower compartment of that furnace is an ignition source

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The *BLOWER COMPARTMENT* ... that is what you said ... *IS NOT* "an ignition source" as you said it was.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

The OPEN RETURN from the FLOOR INTO the Squirel Cage FAN - IS an ignition source.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Now you are yelling and making yourself look even MORE foolish than you did before.

I will add some red highlighting and see if you see it then:
"The OPEN RETURN from the FLOOR INTO the Squirel Cage FAN - IS an ignition source"

No, "The OPEN RETURN" IS NOT "an ignition source".

THINK, man, THINK.
.
THINK, man, THINK ... AN OPEN RETURN ... that is what you are insisting is an ignition source ... cannot be an ignition source ... an IGNITION SOURCE is something with a flame, something which arcs, sparks or otherwise can ignite something ignitable - AN OPEN RETURN is ... well, AN OPENING ... sheesh.

Watson,

I gave you multiple swats up against the head with the proverbial 2x4 to get your attention to what you were saying - you ignored them ... jeez man, step up to the plate and admit you made a mistake.

A big, foolish, repeated, mistake ... and ignored all the highlighting trying to point that out to you.

Yeah, not kidding, NOW you say 'oops, sorry, YOU MEANT so say the squirrel cage fan ... a bit late now Watson ... I gave you more than enough chances to "get it" but your closed mind would have nothing to do with it.

I didn't make any such mistake Peck.

The cabinet bottom AND the OPEN SIDE not sealed to a proper return is what makes it a hazard and exposes the ignition source(s).

I referenced the squirel cage fan in the very first post, now quote it, you selectively ignored it.

I referenced the FAN in the blower compartment (squirel cage FAN & capacitor containing) in the second post, you again selectively IGNORED reference to the FAN yet again.

When the bottom plate is missing AND the side return DUCT is missing (both of which are to have been SEALED btw, so that the area containing the IGNITION SOURCES, NOW EXPOSED TO that 18" vapor layer in the garage DURING AUTOMATIC OPERATION - IS the issue.

So you can take your virtual 2x4 and SIT ON IT while you EAT CROW.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

I didn't make any such mistake Peck.

Dearest Watson,

Ah, but you DID make such a mistake, and you have in fact recognized it because you are now CHANGING YOUR WORDING to correct that mistake: (bold and red are mine)
[quote]The cabinet bottom AND the OPEN SIDE not sealed to a proper return is what makes it a hazard and exposes the ignition source(s).

I referenced the squirel cage fan in the very first post, now quote it, you selectively ignored it.

You did REFERENCE the squirrel cage fan - BUT YOU IDENTIFIED the ignition source as being the open return.

You can back track, twist and turn, squirm around, re-word all you want to, that does not change the fact that you were wrong, and beat your chest on your incorrect wording for multiple post while I was trying to show you that your wording was wrong - you ignored what I was pointing out until what I was saying hit you like a ton of bricks, and now here you are ...

... trying to back track, changing your wording, squirming around, etc., trying to have us believe that you said something you did not say.

Watson, give it up - you really blundered this time, I gave you enough rope to hang yourself, you tied a beautiful knot, you pulled it tight, you kicked the chair out from under yourself, and here you are: squirming around trying to find that chair so you can stand back on it and take the noose off you so wonderfully put there yourself.

All your hacking, coughing, and gasping for breath makes for a great show, I'll push the chair back for you when you admit your mistake ... until then I will just keep sitting in the chair and watching the show you are putting on.

You two pompous. self aggrandizing, loud mouths need to get a life.

RES

I do learn quite a bit reading them tho... but painful they can be :-)

If they would get their egos out of the way, they could be wonderful teachers. As it is, one belongs on the ignore list and the other only gets scanned.

Originally Posted by Darrel Hood

If they would get their egos out of the way, they could be wonderful teachers.

+1

Yeah, no doubt. This could be a really topnotch web site if those two would give it a rest.

Let me try to get back on the OP's question while we tie their tails together and throw them over the clothesline......

The CSST must be installed per the listing. Therefore, such questions are almost always answered by a search there. Since listings and codes change, I recommend you always refer to the appropriate document. In this case, it appears to be Trac Pipe's Counterstrike tm product so you would identify the product by the markings on the polyester jacket and look that up. In general, CSST is allowed and required to flop around a bit. In the event of a potential puncture, one of its properties is to wiggle and deflect a penetrating blow. By clamping it too rigidly but leaving it exposed, you may place it at greater risk. In this case, you do have the potential for physical contact and damage so most likely it should be protected such as a flexible metallic conduit properly supported and secured per the listing. With all CSST including the new lighting strike attenuated versions, still refer to the mfr. for electrical bonding requirements.

One issue not addressed by the code but should be a 'best practice' is not to allow the gas line to sag or dip then rise where it creates a trap unless you put a sediment trap at the lowest point. I've seen enough cases where water, oil or debris have effectively reduced the flow area to inhibit performance.

As an alternative to that open return, they could get those exhaust hoses such as used in fire stations and automotive repair shops and hard pipe it right into the return plenum to ensure you get more effective CO poisoning. (I hope you realize I'm being facetious here).

To HG and Jerry, without trying to get into the middle of your disagreement, let me plead with you both to cool the sparring and picking fly poop out of black pepper and get back on subject. We're all here to learn and to help so let's try to keep it civil. You both know a lot and we appreciate your sharing but sometimes you both get so worked up over who can upstage the other you lose sight of what we're here for. Thanks guys.

Sorry Gents.

I'll try better to ignore Peck's needling and twisting words into knots and just let the points I made stand on their own.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Sorry Gents.

I'll try better to ignore Peck's needling and twisting words into knots and just let the points I made stand on their own.

Not a problem here either, it's just difficult to ignore blatantly incorrect information - I will try to word the corrective responses in a kinder and gently way.

Just because there is a disagreement does not mean that there is an ego, it may simply mean that the response is correcting incorrect information, if you would like incorrect information to stand ... let me know.

We have been through this discussion before and the consensus was not letting the incorrect information stand uncorrected - your choice, let my know if that has changed. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Ralph Stakely

You two pompous. self aggrandizing, loud mouths need to get a life.

RES

Ralph,

Maybe you should start contributing some ... instead of just reading and complaining about those who do?

Everyone has knowledge to contribute - why don't you contribute some for a while?

And......back to more of the same.

Jerry,
If you remember "correctly" I have been a member of this forum since the beginning.. (the 2007 date was "after" Brian's updated version.")

I DID contribute ...before... the egos and putdowns from the "elites" gave me indigestion and headaches.
That "little jab" you just gave me is another one of many.
Your knowledge is great and well appreciated.
But you have absolutely NO people skills.
Your presentations of the "correct" answer leaves people gasping for air.

Your use of semantics (splitting hairs) to make your answer the one and only correct one is off putting.

A simple "correct" answer with simple verification is more than sufficient.

No need to brow beat and denigrate someone that "might" have a differing opinion.

(How about the following scenerio?)
IE: Well, Ralph, I can see where you might think that, but this is the way I see it......... IRC Code...xxxx.2 says....."xxx..xx>" Do you think that might fit the situation better.""..


Simple. to the point without the "I'm smarter and you are a dummy for thinking different."


Have a great day..

Ralph

Ralph,

After thumping you chest with that post ...

Originally Posted by Ralph Stakely

Your use of semantics (splitting hairs) to ...

Splitting hairs is frequently what results in THE best answer.

Originally Posted by Ralph Stakely

Jerry,

...Your knowledge is great and well appreciated.
But you have absolutely NO people skills.

Your presentations of the "correct" answer leaves people gasping for air.

Your use of semantics (splitting hairs) to make your answer the one and only correct one is off putting.

A simple "correct" answer with simple verification is more than sufficient.

No need to brow beat and denigrate someone that "might" have a differing opinion...

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

After thumping you chest with that post ...
Splitting hairs is frequently what results in THE best answer

Arggggggh. Bert never 'gets it' either!

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Arggggggh. Bert never 'gets it' either!

Neither does Watson. (sigh)

From the other day, the realtor said " now why is that a problem it's been that why forever" my response was Let me count the ways. Needless to say she was not happy.

Originally Posted by Mike Gault

I do learn quite a bit reading them tho... but painful they can be :-)

Like getting a rectal-exam from Einstein??? Not so much because you needed one...as much as Einy forgot where he left his car-keys???

Code or not: I could see a very real problem with a gas furnace that takes the return air at less than 18 inches (or even close to that) from the floor. The return air would be at the level of Gas(oline) fumes. This would grab these fumes and then exhaust them above the ignition sources (burners, pilots and motors) and very well could negate the reason for the 18 inch rule. And 'Kaboom'

All of the gas fired units I have seen in garages and shops have been ceiling mounted. Could this be the reason?

Chest thumping, Jerry??????
You've got to be kidding me...

Take a long look in a mirror, my "Friend.'


Ok, Back to scanning.. You're not worth the effort..
Better go check all my "SUB" panels.

Have a good life, in spite of yoursself.

RES

Originally Posted by Ralph Stakely

Chest thumping, Jerry??????
You've got to be kidding me...

Take a long look in a mirror, my "Friend.'

All I see is you standing there hogging the mirror.

Better go check all my "SUB" panels.

You probably have a larger "sub" collection than than the US Navy ...