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  1. #1
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    Default Wood Burning Furnace

    Hey all, had an inspection 2 weeks ago, (Delavan, Wisconsin), customer called agent today, seems she feels the wood burner is not allowed in the home, said she found something on the net. High efficiency gas furnace, located at least 10 feet away, this supplements the heat. Aside from the vent issues seen in the pic, and an un-covered electrical box (behind), ALL ductwork is tight and the unit works great, actually heating the house that day. I searched, and all I found was EPA regulations about emissions. Anyone? Anything?

    Thanks guys, and gals!

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    The fact that "she found something on the net" really does not say much (to you). Did you ask her to forward that "something" to you?

    Finding something on the net does not make it true, oh wait, you can't post anything on the internet that isn't true. And I am a french model.

    Solid fuel furnace/boiler was what was being used in homes before gas and electric was available.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Requires Chimney not venting.

    A stove pipe is not sufficient gauge, size. A proper chimney connector or chimney is required. The copious amounts of streaking creasote is an indication of a serious hazard. No thimble at Breaching. Breaching displays leakage (above & below). Front above chamber door also displays glazing & sooting. Unlisted require greater clearances, listed solid fuel home heating appliances require clearances be maintained. Base appears in contact with unsheilded block wall.

    What is photographed suggests serious fire hazard and danger to persons & property.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Joe, there may be a local ordinance, ban on wood burning for smoke, air quality reasons.
    We see that here in some areas, where wood smoke can hang in a valley for days.

    Another angle may be the fire insurance provider your client wants to go with. That chimney and pipe connection will not pass a formal inspection of any kind, but you already know that.

    But it may be just somebody blowing smoke on the net. I hope 'they' are not trying to blame you for the presence of an antique furnace in their dream home, because that would be nonsense.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    It doesn't seem designed for outdoors, so I'd be skeptical of her claim that it isn't allowed inside the home. Regarding the stove pipe, it appears to be connected to the chimney so I don't have any particular concerns with it from where I'm sitting. I would have disclaimed it as I do all solid fuel stoves because you can't see the internal chambers nor the inside of the chimney flue and referred it to a specialist. Would also have recommended that she obtain the manuals and ensure it is installed according to the manufacturer's instructions (especially in regard to clearances, as I see some sort of floor covering right beside it).

    Joe Funderburk, CBO, CMI
    Alpha & Omega Home Inspections, LLC
    Serving SC & NC

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Since I see a data plate on the unit, it would behoove the OP to refer to it as per clearances, and or certifications, and or other pertinent info, make/model.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Funderburk View Post
    It doesn't seem designed for outdoors, so I'd be skeptical of her claim that it isn't allowed inside the home. Regarding the stove pipe, it appears to be connected to the chimney so I don't have any particular concerns with it from where I'm sitting. I would have disclaimed it as I do all solid fuel stoves because you can't see the internal chambers nor the inside of the chimney flue and referred it to a specialist. Would also have recommended that she obtain the manuals and ensure it is installed according to the manufacturer's instructions (especially in regard to clearances, as I see some sort of floor covering right beside it).
    The appliance is NOT a stove, stove pipe is entirely inappropriate.

    Unlisted connectors and SW connectors require an absolute air space clearance from unshielded - not just "combustibles", especially for such devices.

    Older UL 103 chimney or more recent UL103UT is required for unconditioned spaces unattended use solid fuel home heating appliances.

    Old temps chimney tested to 1700 present over 2000 degrees.

    The stove pipe (and any single wall chimney connector, even if of proper material, size and guage) parallel to the block foundation wall is TOO CLOSE.

    Unlisted requires greater clearances - listed require cleances according to their listing.

    Creasote fires are hot - what is pictured is Dangerous and Hazardous and requires immediate attention/remediation - including foundation remediation.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Klass View Post
    Hey all, had an inspection 2 weeks ago, (Delavan, Wisconsin), customer called agent today, seems she feels the wood burner is not allowed in the home, said she found something on the net. High efficiency gas furnace, located at least 10 feet away, this supplements the heat. Aside from the vent issues seen in the pic, and an un-covered electrical box (behind), ALL ductwork is tight and the unit works great, actually heating the house that day. I searched, and all I found was EPA regulations about emissions. Anyone? Anything?

    Thanks guys, and gals!
    Joe,
    Maybe I missed something. If your client for any reason does not want the wood furnace, as the new owner she could remove it and end the issue completely, net or no net. The wood furnace is not necessary to heat the house since there is an existing gas present. It is not as though the wood furnace is a necessity for the purchase nor critical to the function of the property. Also the wood furnace does not add any real value especially if you do not want to use it. For $150 and you could have it removed and hauled away.

    So what is she looking for from you?


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The appliance is NOT a stove, stove pipe is entirely inappropriate.

    Unlisted connectors and SW connectors require an absolute air space clearance from unshielded - not just "combustibles", especially for such devices.

    Older UL 103 chimney or more recent UL103UT is required for unconditioned spaces unattended use solid fuel home heating appliances.

    Old temps chimney tested to 1700 present over 2000 degrees.

    The stove pipe (and any single wall chimney connector, even if of proper material, size and guage) parallel to the block foundation wall is TOO CLOSE.

    Unlisted requires greater clearances - listed require cleances according to their listing.

    Creasote fires are hot - what is pictured is Dangerous and Hazardous and requires immediate attention/remediation - including foundation remediation.
    Please provide your source for a requirement to provide clearance to non-combustible materials. How could it possibly not touch the masonry chimney/wall when it has to be connected to the chimney/wall.

    "M1803.3.4 Clearance. Connectors shall be installed with
    clearance to combustibles as set forth in Table M1803.3.4.
    Reduced clearances to combustible materials shall be in accordance
    with Table M1306.2 and Figure M1306.1."

    Joe Funderburk, CBO, CMI
    Alpha & Omega Home Inspections, LLC
    Serving SC & NC

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Funderburk View Post
    Please provide your source for a requirement to provide clearance to non-combustible materials. How could it possibly not touch the masonry chimney/wall when it has to be connected to the chimney/wall.

    "M1803.3.4 Clearance. Connectors shall be installed with
    clearance to combustibles as set forth in Table M1803.3.4.
    Reduced clearances to combustible materials shall be in accordance
    with Table M1306.2 and Figure M1306.1."
    Hard to think one would be so obtuse unintentionally, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and presume you are ignorant with such a stupendous assertion-based "question".

    A connection/penetration (via a missing thimble in this case, and directly mortared in - not allowed) is not the same as an unlisted single-wall chimney connector (one pictured is stove pipe and insufficient guage or purpose for the solid-fuel-burning home heating appliance, i.e. furnace, i.e. unattended operation) which is TOO-CLOSE in its upward path and parallel (few inches) to a foundation wall with no shielding and in violation of its (the chimney connector's) required AIR-SPACE clearances.

    Apparently you are unclear on the concept of solid fuel burning mechanicals (furnace) and CHIMNEY requirements.

    You also seem to be (?ignorant?) ignoring or unaware of the "combustibility" of creosote (that brown/black tarry goo leaching down the foundation wall) and ignoring the ceiling/floor joists above, sill plate, ceiling finish if present, etc. and that following the "elbow" which should merely be offset the black inappropriate stove pipe is mortared directly into this block wall which you apparently (but irrelevant if true) presume to contain or be a site-built masonry chimney (no cleanout).

    First, the OP is in Wisconsin, so your references don't apply, anyway.

    Next, the IRC envokes NFPA 211.

    UNLISTED single wall connector into masonry requires a THIMBLE - this is not a VENT connection to be mortared in, that "entry" is a PENETRATION - and NOT a too-close parallel presence of the chimney.

    Next this is a HIGH TEMPERATURE configuration.

    Finally, the UNLISTED equipment requires ADDITIONAL spacial requirements.

    The space is a CLEAR AIR SPACE not just "clearance from combustibles" about the single-wall unlisted chimney connector. There are provisions to SHIELD same.

    EXCESS HEAT DETERIORATES the integrity of - YEP EVEN reinforced concrete foundtions and certainly that of concrete block.

    HIGH TEMPERATURE refractory motar, etc. and fire-brick have their own "limited" resistance. You won't find the BASEMENT FOUNDATION WALL to have been same.

    The single-walled (inppropriately utilized "stove pipe") is wrong. A higher-guage unlisted singlewall CHIMNEY appropriately sized must still maintain clearance, from the structural foundation wall the air space is defined so as to allow same to "heat up" for draft quickly/avoid deposits-condensation/etc. , and to not "over heat" during operation - the AIR space around same allows a cooling effect (which likewise promotes draft interior, etc.). This is why even so-called non-combustible insulation and OTHER INFILL is NOT ALLOWED in REQUIRED SPACE CLEARANCES (there are provisions to reduce some clearances by prescribed sheilding from the heat generated by same).

    Even a chimney flue requires SPACE between IT and the chimney.

    You are welcome to review NFPA 211 for free (in read-only-mode) at NFPA.org.

    Enjoy.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Hard to think one would be so obtuse unintentionally, .
    HG,
    Was that and the other snide comments really necessary. It was possible to just provide the information and leave it at that. Why not work on reducing attitude in the upcoming year. Granted it may not be easy but you would ultimately would be a happier person.

    You should consider participating in the Nachi open forum. I think it would be an interesting exercise for you and they would really benefit from your participation.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Hard to think one would be so obtuse unintentionally, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and presume you are ignorant with such a stupendous assertion-based "question".

    A connection/penetration (via a missing thimble in this case, and directly mortared in - not allowed) is not the same as an unlisted single-wall chimney connector (one pictured is stove pipe and insufficient guage or purpose for the solid-fuel-burning home heating appliance, i.e. furnace, i.e. unattended operation) which is TOO-CLOSE in its upward path and parallel (few inches) to a foundation wall with no shielding and in violation of its (the chimney connector's) required AIR-SPACE clearances.

    Apparently you are unclear on the concept of solid fuel burning mechanicals (furnace) and CHIMNEY requirements.

    You also seem to be (?ignorant?) ignoring or unaware of the "combustibility" of creosote (that brown/black tarry goo leaching down the foundation wall) and ignoring the ceiling/floor joists above, sill plate, ceiling finish if present, etc. and that following the "elbow" which should merely be offset the black inappropriate stove pipe is mortared directly into this block wall which you apparently (but irrelevant if true) presume to contain or be a site-built masonry chimney (no cleanout).

    First, the OP is in Wisconsin, so your references don't apply, anyway.

    Next, the IRC envokes NFPA 211.

    UNLISTED single wall connector into masonry requires a THIMBLE - this is not a VENT connection to be mortared in, that "entry" is a PENETRATION - and NOT a too-close parallel presence of the chimney.

    Next this is a HIGH TEMPERATURE configuration.

    Finally, the UNLISTED equipment requires ADDITIONAL spacial requirements.

    The space is a CLEAR AIR SPACE not just "clearance from combustibles" about the single-wall unlisted chimney connector. There are provisions to SHIELD same.

    EXCESS HEAT DETERIORATES the integrity of - YEP EVEN reinforced concrete foundtions and certainly that of concrete block.

    HIGH TEMPERATURE refractory motar, etc. and fire-brick have their own "limited" resistance. You won't find the BASEMENT FOUNDATION WALL to have been same.

    The single-walled (inppropriately utilized "stove pipe") is wrong. A higher-guage unlisted singlewall CHIMNEY appropriately sized must still maintain clearance, from the structural foundation wall the air space is defined so as to allow same to "heat up" for draft quickly/avoid deposits-condensation/etc. , and to not "over heat" during operation - the AIR space around same allows a cooling effect (which likewise promotes draft interior, etc.). This is why even so-called non-combustible insulation and OTHER INFILL is NOT ALLOWED in REQUIRED SPACE CLEARANCES (there are provisions to reduce some clearances by prescribed sheilding from the heat generated by same).

    Even a chimney flue requires SPACE between IT and the chimney.

    You are welcome to review NFPA 211 for free (in read-only-mode) at NFPA.org.

    Enjoy.
    Garry

    Are you surprised? Its very obvious Watson has an ego, and every new member that posts on this board is subjected to verbal abuse and put downs.
    Even though he provides good info it is diluted with his diatribes.

    Even seasoned posters are subjected to his juvenile rants and name calling. This is a repetitive hallmark.

    This leads me to ask why we tolerate such abuse on a regular basis and why he is permitted to continue to subject posters to his ignorant unwarranted attacks.

    Personally I think Waston should be removed again and given a time out, but then again its not my board and I guess unless Brian receives complaints nothing will be done about it.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Hard to think one would be so obtuse unintentionally, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and presume you are ignorant with such a stupendous assertion-based "question".

    A connection/penetration (via a missing thimble in this case, and directly mortared in - not allowed) is not the same as an unlisted single-wall chimney connector (one pictured is stove pipe and insufficient guage or purpose for the solid-fuel-burning home heating appliance, i.e. furnace, i.e. unattended operation) which is TOO-CLOSE in its upward path and parallel (few inches) to a foundation wall with no shielding and in violation of its (the chimney connector's) required AIR-SPACE clearances.

    Apparently you are unclear on the concept of solid fuel burning mechanicals (furnace) and CHIMNEY requirements.

    You also seem to be (?ignorant?) ignoring or unaware of the "combustibility" of creosote (that brown/black tarry goo leaching down the foundation wall) and ignoring the ceiling/floor joists above, sill plate, ceiling finish if present, etc. and that following the "elbow" which should merely be offset the black inappropriate stove pipe is mortared directly into this block wall which you apparently (but irrelevant if true) presume to contain or be a site-built masonry chimney (no cleanout).

    First, the OP is in Wisconsin, so your references don't apply, anyway.

    Next, the IRC envokes NFPA 211.

    UNLISTED single wall connector into masonry requires a THIMBLE - this is not a VENT connection to be mortared in, that "entry" is a PENETRATION - and NOT a too-close parallel presence of the chimney.

    Next this is a HIGH TEMPERATURE configuration.

    Finally, the UNLISTED equipment requires ADDITIONAL spacial requirements.

    The space is a CLEAR AIR SPACE not just "clearance from combustibles" about the single-wall unlisted chimney connector. There are provisions to SHIELD same.

    EXCESS HEAT DETERIORATES the integrity of - YEP EVEN reinforced concrete foundtions and certainly that of concrete block.

    HIGH TEMPERATURE refractory motar, etc. and fire-brick have their own "limited" resistance. You won't find the BASEMENT FOUNDATION WALL to have been same.

    The single-walled (inppropriately utilized "stove pipe") is wrong. A higher-guage unlisted singlewall CHIMNEY appropriately sized must still maintain clearance, from the structural foundation wall the air space is defined so as to allow same to "heat up" for draft quickly/avoid deposits-condensation/etc. , and to not "over heat" during operation - the AIR space around same allows a cooling effect (which likewise promotes draft interior, etc.). This is why even so-called non-combustible insulation and OTHER INFILL is NOT ALLOWED in REQUIRED SPACE CLEARANCES (there are provisions to reduce some clearances by prescribed sheilding from the heat generated by same).

    Even a chimney flue requires SPACE between IT and the chimney.

    You are welcome to review NFPA 211 for free (in read-only-mode) at NFPA.org.

    Enjoy.
    I asked you to provide a code reference that requires the connector to maintain a certain clearance from the masonry wall. Despite your insults and assertion of supreme knowledge, you have failed to do so. Pointing to a code book is not a code reference.

    By the way, the IRC only invokes NFPA 211 in two places: Chapter 21, Fuel Gas, which is not applicable to this application. And in R1002 where it references clearance to combustible materials for masonry heaters (again, not applicable).

    If you look at my original post, I said the correct response would be to refer it to a specialist and to verify installation according to the manufacture's instructions. There is likely too little clearance to combustible materials, true. But your claim of a defective installation because it's too close to a block wall based on looking at a photo is not supported by any model code.

    Joe Funderburk, CBO, CMI
    Alpha & Omega Home Inspections, LLC
    Serving SC & NC

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Garry

    Are you surprised? Its very obvious Watson has an ego, and every new member that posts on this board is subjected to verbal abuse and put downs.
    Even though he provides good info it is diluted with his diatribes.

    Even seasoned posters are subjected to his juvenile rants and name calling. This is a repetitive hallmark.

    This leads me to ask why we tolerate such abuse on a regular basis and why he is permitted to continue to subject posters to his ignorant unwarranted attacks.

    Personally I think Waston should be removed again and given a time out, but then again its not my board and I guess unless Brian receives complaints nothing will be done about it.
    We have several resident curmudgeons but they still offer good info. So even though there are two types of posters here....those that have been Watsonated and those that will be Watsonated........and I might add, you can get Pecked, too. I can filter the condescension to get to the nuggets of good information. So, I'm not particularly bothered by it.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Hey all, THANKS for all the info! Garry: I myself also put little faith in what she found "on the net". She could not forward anything to me, couldn't get the link This is the second home I inspected for them in Delavan, I think they are looking for a Gem (little money, Mansion quality), in all the wrong places, mostly price range, they backed out of that one also. H.G.: Mentioned ALL of the above in the report, I again think they are looking for an "out", as I'm speculating if they in fact DID call the specialist, he may have also mentioned all the items, and then hit them with a price, who knows. John: The insurance agent (thiers) was out to the home, and aside from the needed repairs, gave the OK to insure the home for them. When I spoke with the buyers agent, she assured me of what I have suspected all along, they are looking for the reason NOT to buy the house. And, this is the best part, they are NOT holding me accountable for ANY of the items I called out! As always, we know it is NOT the inspector that kills a deal, it ultimately is the house!

    Thanks again!


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Klass View Post
    As always, we know it is NOT the inspector that kills a deal, it ultimately is the house! Thanks again!
    I don't agree with the "always" part of that. I know a few inspectors who have a knack for making mountains out of every molehill. They pat themselves on the back for being so tough, but scaring clients over easily remedied defects isn't providing good service, imo.
    So, yes, an inspector can kill a deal. I've been asked to give second opinions several times. Most of the time, I agree with the first inspector, but occasionally, I'm scratching my head wondering W-T-H that other inspector was thinking.

    Being able to identify the good and the bad, is our first responsibility, but accurately communicating information without undue embellishment is a close second responsibility.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Three times pointed out subject is NOT A STOVE to Joe Funderbunk!

    Unattended automatic operation, and from an unconditioned, unfinished, non-living space, i.e. cold Wisconsin unfinished basement, perimeter foundation wall, not a compliant masonry chimney. Solid fuel home heating appliance (furnace), vintage; high temperature application, unattended operation.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Three times pointed out subject is NOT A STOVE to Joe Funderbunk!
    Yet another example of your typical argumentative posts, Watson. These posts show your real self ... a pitiful self to be sure, but you keep showing us your real self in your posts ... (sigh)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Yet another example of your typical argumentative posts, Watson. These posts show your real self ... a pitiful self to be sure, but you keep showing us your real self in your posts ... (sigh)
    Another man without a clue! Just don't "get it" do ya Peck!

    Joe Funderbunk still can't grasp a stove pipe 'ain't right' and ya don't penetrate an exterior masonry wall foundation or otherwise with either a stove pipe, a chimney connector or a manufactured chimney in that manner, model code unlisted device or listing standards & requirements, nor that "his" references DO NOT APPLY (Wisc.)!! Only an ignoramous would continue as Funderbunk does!

    Nothing added but your usual trollish back-biting stalking cross-posting ad hominem! Your continuous cantankerous modus op. Peck! Don't continue to strain yourself, as is so obviously over your head - and the green-eyed monster when an OP acknowledges with gratitude always burns your @$$.

    Others, pls. stop quoting & PMing me the Peck's poop.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Another man without a clue! Just don't "get it" do ya Peck!

    Joe Funderbunk still can't grasp a stove pipe 'ain't right' and ya don't penetrate an exterior masonry wall foundation or otherwise with either a stove pipe, a chimney connector or a manufactured chimney in that manner, model code unlisted device or listing standards & requirements, nor that "his" references DO NOT APPLY (Wisc.)!! Only an ignoramous would continue as Funderbunk does!

    Nothing added but your usual trollish back-biting stalking cross-posting ad hominem! Your continuous cantankerous modus op. Peck! Don't continue to strain yourself, as is so obviously over your head - and the green-eyed monster when an OP acknowledges with gratitude always burns your @$$.

    Others, pls. stop quoting & PMing me the Peck's poop.
    How long do we have to put up with the insults and name calling and boorish behaviour?

    I have reported your post once again Watson and I hope others complain so that you are finally removed from this forum where your bull and your $20 words have finally worn thin! You have insulted everyone on this forum time and time again!


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Another man without a clue! Just don't "get it" do ya Peck!

    Joe Funderbunk still can't grasp a stove pipe 'ain't right' and ya don't penetrate an exterior masonry wall foundation or otherwise with either a stove pipe, a chimney connector or a manufactured chimney in that manner, model code unlisted device or listing standards & requirements, nor that "his" references DO NOT APPLY (Wisc.)!! Only an ignoramous would continue as Funderbunk does!

    Nothing added but your usual trollish back-biting stalking cross-posting ad hominem! Your continuous cantankerous modus op. Peck! Don't continue to strain yourself, as is so obviously over your head - and the green-eyed monster when an OP acknowledges with gratitude always burns your @$$.

    Others, pls. stop quoting & PMing me the Peck's poop.
    I agree with you, it is not a stove. But you still haven't proven why the flue or connector has to maintain a certain distance from a masonry wall.

    Joe Funderburk, CBO, CMI
    Alpha & Omega Home Inspections, LLC
    Serving SC & NC

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Joe,
    Never have figured out that a some buyer feels they have to make an issue into a mountain for the reason to exercise their option of canceling the contract based on the property inspection. Unless it is a poorly written contract (for the buyer) the buyer does not have to provide any cause other than the having obtained the inspection. The buyer doesn't even have to read the report just have to have it done to meet cancellation terms, could have changed mind right after signing contract. So it seemed your client went to alot of effort over the furnace. But it did bring about a some what interesting discussion, at least to see the tangents that are taken along the way. Not to mention the ubiquitous sniping.

    It also never ceases to amaze me that a buyer will fixate on something that they can just get rid of or change as the problem with a property. Interior paint color, wall paper, light fixture and the best one I heard was the mail box.


  23. #23
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    Cool Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    I usually tend to find HG on target but I believe he is a little mixed up here.

    First of all this is not a High Heat rated appliance. That would mean a continuous flue gas temperature above 1,800F. This is categorized as low heat residential column I chimney venting. BTW, you are allowed to use the term "venting" even when referring to exhausting flue gases up a chimney even if it isn't technically a 'vent'.

    Therefore, this solid fuel-burning appliance requires a masonry chimney that meets the code or a factory chimney listed to UL 103HT, which btw is listed for 2,100F max/ 1,000F continuous. Now to get from the appliance to the chimney you need a 'connector'. Some people refer to this colloquially as "stovepipe" much the same as "Coke" when they want a soda. NFPA 211 lists the approved connectors for solid fuel as factory chimney, L vent, or meeting the specs in table 9.2.2.3 which determines the gauge steel pipe per diameter. For instance, 6" connector must be 24 gauge regular steel but you could subsitute 26ga. stainless steel since ss carries a one ga. allowance for equivalency. Galvanized steel is typically not used for solid fuel because above ~800F it can off-gas toxic zinc vapor so it is usually either painted black or blued steel. Not sure how HG was able to determine the gauge of metal by a photo.

    Now, normally a masonry chimney would have a clay thimble for access to the base of the chimney but this one doesn't appear to have one. Therefore, ordinary steel connector cannot be cemented in direct contact to the masonry. Stainless steel connector can but not galvanized, painted or blue steel. Those must use a thimble but regardless, the connector must be cemented to the inner face of the flue tile without extending into the flue. There must be a clean-out 12" below the breaching but there doesn't appear to be one here. Could be behind that wall but we weren't given that info. If the wall was combustible, you would have to either shield the wall or use an insulated listed connector at stated clearances but we don't so such connector is not required here for connection to a non-combustible wall penetration.

    However, that is CMU block and the cells of that block must be fully grouted if it is greater than 4" nominal block. Failure to provide 12" of solid masonry around the breaching is a common cause for fire as heat migrates up the cells to combustible framing above.

    There is nothing in the code or 211 that prohibits encroaching on a non-combustible wall or other item such as metal duct work, pipes, steel I beams, etc. as long as the space is well ventilated and readily accessible. In this case, the free air in the room will tend to cool surfaces to a point of equilibrium. Yes, that CMU block may eventually fail over years but there isn't anything clear cut in the codes to prohibit this installation of connector less than 18". If you're worried about it that much, recommend either L vent connector or a 1" ventilated heat shield per 211 and be done with it.

    There appears floor covering to the left of the appliance that, if combustible would need to be cut back or shielded based on the listing of the appliance or min. 16". The creosote (note spelling) is a sign of a malfunction or improper burning combined with a lack of professional maintenance. It is highly combustible and cannot be removed sufficiently. I would recommend that section of wall be replaced. The the appliance should be inspected and tested for proper operation. Apparently,this appliance sees long slow burn times and the chimney may be cold, oversized, restrictive or other defect or otherwise unsuitable for this application. I would be shocked if a Level II inspection did not indicate the need for a listed liner.

    As for the appliance, where is the return air? Is this an open return? Is this gravity warm air or forced? How big is the CAZ with regards to makeup air? Competing combustion appliances or forced ventilation?

    I would ask for the references as to why this installation is "illegal".

    HG, I too don't see why you attacked this person. You really need to step back and cool off because you do yourself and no one here any good when you are being antagonistic.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
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    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Requires Chimney not venting.

    A stove pipe is not sufficient gauge, size. A proper chimney connector or chimney is required. The copious amounts of streaking creasote is an indication of a serious hazard. No thimble at Breaching. Breaching displays leakage (above & below). Front above chamber door also displays glazing & sooting. Unlisted require greater clearances, listed solid fuel home heating appliances require clearances be maintained. Base appears in contact with unsheilded block wall.

    What is photographed suggests serious fire hazard and danger to persons & property.

    HG,
    You seem to be the first one to reference the pipe as "A stove pipe" not Joe F. And there by creating a connection to a stove. So off to the wood shed with you. When it is not a stove but a furnace, except that stoves are used as furnaces. Though it would appear to be material that could be described as "stove pipe", but there is no way of knowing the gauge of the material, nor is it possible to know what the manufactures installation were for the unit in size or gauge. The fact that the pipe goes into what appears to be a block wall, it may in fact be a chimney we do not know. There may be a chimney on the other side. A lot of guessing. Granted it does not look good and there is staining along with not being sealed and so on and so on. The furnace may infact be an insulated wood burning chamber with a heat exchanger and blower motor in addition to a electrically controlled damper. Further more, the furnace probably was designed to be present purpose. The installation is not without question. Unless you have a direct line to the psychic connection we voice opinions based on conjecture. The fact that thee is what looks like creosote on the wall as a result of the low fire controlled burn is a concern and no one would say ignore it. The distance from the wall is that of the of the blower fan unit may be adequate. No way to say definitively.

    Joe had asked for the source for you assertions. On the "code reference that requires the connector to maintain a certain clearance from the masonry wall". Which should not be a big issue for a good cut an paster as you are. You have reference materials that you refer to . The simple act of wanting to know where the source that you are relying on is far being an obtuse person.

    Calling the pictured appliance a stove, furnace, a solid fuel stove solid fuel appliance, a box thingy that burns wood or anything else is really not a good reason to argue over the name. Much less get so aggravated over.


    So.. with a drum roll please....... how about the code source that describes Joe's request. It would be interesting to see the actual wordage.

    Last edited by Garry Sorrells; 01-24-2013 at 05:09 AM. Reason: spice

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    eastpoint fl
    Posts
    48

    Default Re: Wood Burning Furnace

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The appliance is NOT a stove, stove pipe is entirely inappropriate.
    (Many others have also made this assertion, so I don't intend to single out the specific quote.)
    A good definition of a wood-burning stove is "an appliance capable of burning wood fuel and wood-derived biomass fuel, such as wood pellets. The appliance consists of a closed fire chamber with an adjustable air control. Combustion is normally controlled by admission of air to fuel, not by adding more fuel." Of course, some pellet "stoves" reverse this and introduce fuel as needed, but this is an exception to the rule. An argument could be made that "pellet stoves" are furnaces and not stoves.

    The appliance pictured would seem to meet the definition of a stove. It is certainly used as a furnace, but this does not preclude it also being defined as a stove. This naming is irrelevant to many of the practical faults noted, but might be relevant if looking a laws or codes.

    As to this one, I'd look at the data plate. It is possible that the exterior of the appliance is zero clearance, even to combustable material. Many such devices have been made, but I don't know whether this is one or not. Likewise, the stovepipe MIGHT be rated for the volume of air required and temperature produced.
    Also, the entry into the wall looks like it MAY actually have a thimble. There are circular insulated steel thimbles rated to 2100 degrees that look much like what I see.
    MetalBest Ultra Temp Insulated Wall Thimble 6"
    Of course, it could also just be a trim ring - from here, it would look the same. Past that , I don't know what is in there; the other side of the thimble (or trim ring) could connect to triple wall steel flue for all I can see.

    In any case, the installation certainly has hazardous flaws. The creosote alone is a tip off that things are absolutely not right. Fixing that will require enough work that the other issues will be visible, if present.

    Last edited by gary carroll; 01-23-2013 at 12:02 PM. Reason: clarification of phrasing

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