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  1. #1
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    Feb 2009
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    Default Bathrooms need heat installed

    Yes, I know the code book says heat is not required in a bathroom.
    Well it can be darned cold in there with no heat when you go to get out of the shower. Not to mention the damp walls that will grow mould before your eyes when there is no heat to dry the room out.
    So I will always point out a lack of heat if there is a shower or tub in there.

    I saw this recently in a rented mobile home. One bathroom, no heater installed. Check out the power cord under the door into the bedroom. Of course the bedroom outlet is an Octopus in the corner. The third pic is the carcass of the smoke alarm out in the hall. The kid's bedroom had a louvered window, no emergency egress.

    If you saw this when you were there for an unrelated reason like a radon sample, would you mention it?

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    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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  2. #2
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    Feb 2008
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    Caledon, Ontario
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    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    Yes I would certainly point it out. I don't recall anyone being sued for pointing something out, but lots of trouble could follow for not pointing it out.


  3. #3
    Jim Abram's Avatar
    Jim Abram Guest

    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Yes, I know the code book says heat is not required in a bathroom.
    Well it can be darned cold in there with no heat when you go to get out of the shower. Not to mention the damp walls that will grow mould before your eyes when there is no heat to dry the room out.
    So I will always point out a lack of heat if there is a shower or tub in there.

    I saw this recently in a rented mobile home. One bathroom, no heater installed. Check out the power cord under the door into the bedroom. Of course the bedroom outlet is an Octopus in the corner. The third pic is the carcass of the smoke alarm out in the hall. The kid's bedroom had a louvered window, no emergency egress.

    If you saw this when you were there for an unrelated reason like a radon sample, would you mention it?
    There are public health laws that require heating in baths.

    Heating Facilities


    The owner must provide (i.e. supply and pay for) and keep in good working order the facilities capable of heating every habitable room and every room containing bathroom facilities. [410.200]
    Between September 15 and June 15, these rooms must be heated to a temperature of not less than 68 Fahrenheit (20 C) between 7:00 a.m. and 11:00 p.m. and 64 Fahrenheit (17 C) between 11:01 p.m. and 6:59 a.m., unless the occupant has agreed to supply the fuel under a written lease. [410.201]
    The temperature may not exceed 78 Fahrenheit (25 C) during the heating season. The number of days per year during which heat must be provided may be increased or decreased through a variance granted locally by the board of health. [410.200 and 410.048]


  4. #4
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    Spring Hill (Nashville), TN
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    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    There are public health laws that require heating in baths.

    Heating Facilities


    The owner must provide (i.e. supply and pay for) and keep in good working order the facilities capable of heating every habitable room and every room containing bathroom facilities. [410.200]
    Between September 15 and June 15, these rooms must be heated to a temperature of not less than 68 Fahrenheit (20 C) between 7:00 a.m. and 11:00 p.m. and 64 Fahrenheit (17 C) between 11:01 p.m. and 6:59 a.m., unless the occupant has agreed to supply the fuel under a written lease. [410.201]
    The temperature may not exceed 78 Fahrenheit (25 C) during the heating season. The number of days per year during which heat must be provided may be increased or decreased through a variance granted locally by the board of health. [410.200 and 410.048]
    This is for MA, not for all parts of the country.
    CIS: Safe and Sanitary Housing for Massachusetts Residents

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
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    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    There are public health laws that require heating in baths.

    Heating Facilities


    The owner must provide (i.e. supply and pay for) and keep in good working order the facilities capable of heating every habitable room and every room containing bathroom facilities. [410.200]
    Between September 15 and June 15, these rooms must be heated to a temperature of not less than 68 Fahrenheit (20 C) between 7:00 a.m. and 11:00 p.m. and 64 Fahrenheit (17 C) between 11:01 p.m. and 6:59 a.m., unless the occupant has agreed to supply the fuel under a written lease. [410.201]
    The temperature may not exceed 78 Fahrenheit (25 C) during the heating season. The number of days per year during which heat must be provided may be increased or decreased through a variance granted locally by the board of health. [410.200 and 410.048]
    Sounds like rental property and then only if the property owner supplies heat. Not likely in a SFR Mobil home (scuse me, Manufactured home)

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Sounds like rental property and then only if the property owner supplies heat. Not likely in a SFR Mobil home (scuse me, Manufactured home)
    Thanks Rick. We can call this one a Mobile home. It even has the original 1968 tailights.

    And yes, it is a rental, but I imagine the tenant pays the electric bill, meter on a pole nearby.

    I called for heat to be installed in the bathroom and an egress window in the bedroom, and of course, smoke alarms but that is in my report to my clients, and my clients appear to have walked.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 03-01-2014 at 07:48 PM.
    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  7. #7
    Jim Abram's Avatar
    Jim Abram Guest

    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    This is for MA, not for all parts of the country.
    CIS: Safe and Sanitary Housing for Massachusetts Residents

    Scott - This type of regulation is not unique to MA and is widespread in the colder areas of the country.

    HEATING REGULATIONS FOR THE CITY OF YONKERS



    The heating requirements currently enforced by the Department of Housing and Buildings
    requires that:

    Every person, firm or corporation who shall have contacted, undertaken or become bound
    to heat or furnish heat for any building or portion thereof occupied as a home or place of
    residence in the City of Yonkers, shall heat or furnish heat to every occupied room in such
    building or portion thereof.

    DURING THE PERIOD FROM SEPTEMBER 15TH TO MAY 31ST IT IS
    REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN A TEMPERATURE OF NOT LESS THAN 68F
    (20C) IN ALL HABITABLE ROOMS, BATHROOMS AND TOILET RO

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Sounds like rental property and then only if the property owner supplies heat. Not likely in a SFR Mobil home (scuse me, Manufactured home)
    Rick - That is not correct.See below.


    Overview


    The Massachusetts Department of Public Health establishes regulations detailing the standards which must be maintained by the occupants and owners of housing. These regulations protect the health, safety and well-being of Massachusetts citizens and are found in Chapter II of the State Sanitary Code [105 CMR 410.000] entitled Minimum Standards of Fitness for Human Habitation.
    The standards apply to every owner-occupied or rented dwelling, dwelling unit, mobile dwelling unit or rooming house unit in Massachusetts which is used for living, sleeping, cooking and eating. Dwelling unit shall also mean a condominium unit.


  8. #8
    Jim Abram's Avatar
    Jim Abram Guest

    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    [QUOTE=John Kogel;238455]Yes, I know the code book says heat is not required in a bathroom.
    QUOTE]


    Just another example of the " Building Code" not making any sense. Does this make sense to anybody ?


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    NY Finger Lakes Area
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    206

    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    [QUOTE=Jim Abram;238688]
    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Yes, I know the code book says heat is not required in a bathroom.
    QUOTE]


    Just another example of the " Building Code" not making any sense. Does this make sense to anybody ?
    .........the bathrooms are required to be able to be maintained at a certain temperature - there is not a requirement for a separate heat source within the space. If you have a bathroom located in the core area of the structure (quite common) this is readily accomplished..........Greg


  10. #10
    Jim Abram's Avatar
    Jim Abram Guest

    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    [QUOTE=Gregory Booth;238698]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post

    .........the bathrooms are required to be able to be maintained at a certain temperature - there is not a requirement for a separate heat source within the space. If you have a bathroom located in the core area of the structure (quite common) this is readily accomplished..........Greg

    How do you as an inspector determine that the bathroom will be heated at a certain temperature if there is no heat source in the bath when you perform an inspection in July? Seems that it would be appropriate to note that there is no heat source in the bath.
    We are working for buyers,( in most cases), what is the point of defending the " Code"?


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    NY Finger Lakes Area
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    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    [QUOTE=Jim Abram;238705]
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Booth View Post


    How do you as an inspector determine that the bathroom will be heated at a certain temperature if there is no heat source in the bath when you perform an inspection in July? Seems that it would be appropriate to note that there is no heat source in the bath.
    We are working for buyers,( in most cases), what is the point of defending the " Code"?
    ......... I would make that determination based upon my knowledge and experience. A bathroom located within the core and w/o a heat source would not make it to my report. I would point it out (as you suggest) if it was located on an exterior wall. You are the guy talking code - I'm defending common sense......Greg


  12. #12
    Jim Abram's Avatar
    Jim Abram Guest

    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    [QUOTE=Gregory Booth;238706]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post

    ......... I would make that determination based upon my knowledge and experience. A bathroom located within the core and w/o a heat source would not make it to my report. I would point it out (as you suggest) if it was located on an exterior wall. You are the guy talking code - I'm defending common sense......Greg
    Greg - Most jurisdictions have a requirement for bathroom heat.
    City of Albany ,NY

    CC231-57 Heating requirements.
    Every dwelling and multifamily
    dwelling shall have heating facilitie
    s, and the owner of the heating
    facilities shall be required to see that
    they are properly installed, safely
    maintained and in good working condition and that they are capable of
    safely and adequately heating all habitable rooms, bathrooms and toilet
    rooms located herein to a temperature of at least an average of 70F
    with an outside temperature of 10F
    below 0. The owner of the heating
    facilities shall maintain a minimum
    average room temperature of 70F
    in all habitable rooms, including bathrooms and toilet rooms.

    Even Rochester NY has heating regulations.
    34.08. Heating Facilities. Every dwelling must have heating facilities which are properly installed, maintained in safe and good working condition, and capable of safely
    hearting all habitable rooms, bathrooms, and water closet compartments in every apartment
    located therein to a temperature of at least 68 degrees F., at a distance three feet above the
    floor level and not closer than two feet from an outside wall, window or door, when the
    temperature outside is minus 20 degrees F.

    Greg - This is a case where common sense does not apply. This is a case where there is a requirement for heat and specific heating performance.
    I do not know how your claim that you can determine heating capabilities would play out if there was a claim for a cold bath. I do not think it would work out very well.
    What do you have to lose by indicating there is no heat source in a bathroom? That is the common sense part of this situation.


    It has become standard to require heating of baths in cold climates.

    Last edited by Jim Abram; 03-02-2014 at 09:52 AM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    NY Finger Lakes Area
    Posts
    206

    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    [QUOTE=Jim Abram;238709]
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Booth View Post
    Greg - Most jurisdictions have a requirement for bathroom heat.
    City of Albany ,NY

    CC231-57 Heating requirements.
    Every dwelling and multifamily
    dwelling shall have heating facilitie
    s, and the owner of the heating
    facilities shall be required to see that
    they are properly installed, safely
    maintained and in good working condition and that they are capable of
    safely and adequately heating all habitable rooms, bathrooms and toilet
    rooms located herein to a temperature of at least an average of 70F
    with an outside temperature of 10F
    below 0. The owner of the heating
    facilities shall maintain a minimum
    average room temperature of 70F
    in all habitable rooms, including bathrooms and toilet rooms.

    Even Rochester NY has heating regulations.
    34.08. Heating Facilities. Every dwelling must have heating facilities which are properly installed, maintained in safe and good working condition, and capable of safely
    hearting all habitable rooms, bathrooms, and water closet compartments in every apartment
    located therein to a temperature of at least 68 degrees F., at a distance three feet above the
    floor level and not closer than two feet from an outside wall, window or door, when the
    temperature outside is minus 20 degrees F.

    Greg - This is a case where common sense does not apply. This is a case where there is a requirement for heat and specific heating performance.
    I do not know how your claim that you can determine heating capabilities would play out if there was a claim for a cold bath. I do not think it would work out very well.
    What do you have to lose by indicating there is no heat source in a bathroom? That is the common sense part of this situation.


    It has become standard to require heating of baths in cold climates.
    ...........as you mention, all the instances you cite require heat, none speak to the method of furnishing that heat - which goes to the heart of this discussion. As in another topic we discussed, I find you're circular logic tedious to deal with - you may have the last word......Greg


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    26,251

    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    (bold and underlined with italics text is mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    There are public health laws that require heating in baths.

    Heating Facilities


    The owner must provide (i.e. supply and pay for) and keep in good working order the facilities capable of heating every habitable room and every room containing bathroom facilities. [410.200]
    Between September 15 and June 15, these rooms must be heated to a temperature of not less than 68 Fahrenheit (20 C) between 7:00 a.m. and 11:00 p.m. and 64 Fahrenheit (17 C) between 11:01 p.m. and 6:59 a.m., unless the occupant has agreed to supply the fuel under a written lease. [410.201]
    The temperature may not exceed 78 Fahrenheit (25 C) during the heating season. The number of days per year during which heat must be provided may be increased or decreased through a variance granted locally by the board of health. [410.200 and 410.048]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    How do you as an inspector determine that the bathroom will be heated at a certain temperature if there is no heat source in the bath when you perform an inspection in July?
    Jim,

    How do you as an inspector determine that the bathroom will be heated at a not to exceed 78 degrees F with no thermostat present which has a preset maximum of 78 degrees f?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
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    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    There are thousands of homes with floor or wall furnaces and not forced air. Are they all wrong.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,251

    Default Re: Bathrooms need heat installed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Abram View Post
    Jerry -That would not be possible.
    Jim,

    What would not be possible?

    As you asked inspecting for minimum heat in a bathroom in July or as I asked inspecting for maximum heat in a bathroom in July?

    If you expect one then you should also expect the other.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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