Thread: Poor building practices in NC - and other places?

Just wondering what the group thinks or if anyone has had a similar experience to the following...

I had a customer who purchased a new home this January (2015) and withing days the small 1 inch condensate line to the exterior from the condensing furnace (and AC) froze and back filled the pipe until it ran freely into the attic space and then below into the homes living spaces.

The wonderful pan switches do not operate in the heat mode so the damage to the home was not prevented (they work so well for AC systems) and if they had worked during the recent cold (single digit) snap my customer may have been frozen in their homes when the heat shut down.
This raises a series of questions.
How to prevent the pipe from freezing?
A larger diameter (exterior) pipe, heat tape on PVC...
If it freezes how to prevent the damage during the back up?
Secondary drain?
Hope for global warming?

What to do now?

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In the case of the new home this need to be taken up with the builder home warranty, As far as a visual Home Inspection, all is needed is a written report on the extent of the problem as noted here and refer it to a "Licensed HVAC Professional for repairs" as well as the "manufacture's instruction" that come with the unit.

Fred Sweezer Sr.
www.thelongbeachhomeinspector.com
Certified Home Inspector

Originally Posted by Jeff Zehnder

Just wondering what the group thinks or if anyone has had a similar experience to the following...

I had a customer who purchased a new home this January (2015) and withing days the small 1 inch condensate line to the exterior from the condensing furnace (and AC) froze and back filled the pipe until it ran freely into the attic space and then below into the homes living spaces.

The wonderful pan switches do not operate in the heat mode so the damage to the home was not prevented (they work so well for AC systems) and if they had worked during the recent cold (single digit) snap my customer may have been frozen in their homes when the heat shut down.
This raises a series of questions.
How to prevent the pipe from freezing?
A larger diameter (exterior) pipe, heat tape on PVC...
If it freezes how to prevent the damage during the back up?
Secondary drain?
Hope for global warming?

What to do now?

That is why manufacturers prefer secondary drain lines in the auxiliary pans.

The float switch can be wired to shut the unit down in all running phases. A secondary float switch, (common in Florida) can be installed in the main pan secondary line outlet.

In any event, in freezing climates the line should have been run with anticipated freezing in mind, (IE, approved receptor with gap at the interior).

Originally Posted by Fred Sweezer Sr

In the case of the new home this need to be taken up with the builder home warranty, As far as a visual Home Inspection, all is needed is a written report on the extent of the problem as noted here and refer it to a "Licensed HVAC Professional for repairs" as well as the "manufacture's instruction" that come with the unit.

Fred Sweezer Sr.
www.thelongbeachhomeinspector.com
Certified Home Inspector

Visual Home Inspection, that one cracks me up every time I hear it. The minute you pull out your screwdriver, plug in an electrical tester, use a thermal camera, probe anything, that inspection is no longer "Visual". People look for solutions and want answers, if you are just going to refer everything out, why are they hiring the middleman, "You"?

Originally Posted by Fred Sweezer Sr

In the case of the new home this need to be taken up with the builder home warranty, As far as a visual Home Inspection, all is needed is a written report on the extent of the problem as noted here and refer it to a "Licensed HVAC Professional for repairs" as well as the "manufacture's instruction" that come with the unit.

Fred Sweezer Sr.
www.thelongbeachhomeinspector.com
Certified Home Inspector

Originally Posted by JeffGHooper

Visual Home Inspection, that one cracks me up every time I hear it. The minute you pull out your screwdriver, plug in an electrical tester, use a thermal camera, probe anything, that inspection is no longer "Visual". People look for solutions and want answers, if you are just going to refer everything out, why are they hiring the middleman, "You"?

I've been pointing that convoluted and incorrect use of "visual inspection" for many years now ... it is inspector lore and just will not go away (HI schools are still "teaching it", I guess).

Back when home inspections first started, yeah, they were "visual inspections" ... but after a few inspections and those old timers realizing that they needed to "see better", they started carrying flashlights, then they want to "see inside" things, they started carrying screw drivers ... that was back in the 1970s or earlier ... and AT THAT TIME ... home inspections were no longer just "visual inspections".

The other one that cracks me up Jerry is "Comprehensive." So what is the difference between a "Comprehensive Inspection" and a "Technically Exhaustive Inspection"?

Here is a clue.

exhaustive
(ɪɡˈzɔːstɪv)
adj
1. comprehensive in scope; thorough: an exhaustive survey.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I've been pointing that convoluted and incorrect use of "visual inspection" for many years now ... it is inspector lore and just will not go away (HI schools are still "teaching it", I guess).

Back when home inspections first started, yeah, they were "visual inspections" ... but after a few inspections and those old timers realizing that they needed to "see better", they started carrying flashlights, then they want to "see inside" things, they started carrying screw drivers ... that was back in the 1970s or earlier ... and AT THAT TIME ... home inspections were no longer just "visual inspections".

We need a new acronym such as "NTE" and everyone will know what it means.

e.g. This inspection is NTE, and the house is FUBAR AFAV.

Originally Posted by Jeff Zehnder

Just wondering what the group thinks or if anyone has had a similar experience to the following...

I had a customer who purchased a new home this January (2015) and withing days the small 1 inch condensate line to the exterior from the condensing furnace (and AC) froze and back filled the pipe until it ran freely into the attic space and then below into the homes living spaces.

The wonderful pan switches do not operate in the heat mode so the damage to the home was not prevented (they work so well for AC systems) and if they had worked during the recent cold (single digit) snap my customer may have been frozen in their homes when the heat shut down.
This raises a series of questions.
How to prevent the pipe from freezing?
A larger diameter (exterior) pipe, heat tape on PVC...
If it freezes how to prevent the damage during the back up?
Secondary drain?
Hope for global warming?

What to do now?

It is a freak cold snap and many things that have never happened or occurred are now doing so for the first time. One reason for home owners insurance…..

I have no idea what the solution is going to be, I would think that getting rid of the condensate on the interior instead of the exterior would be the first thing to look at. What do they do in other parts of the world where it gets and stays much colder?

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

What do they do in other parts of the world where it gets and stays much colder?

They have these things called basements and put the mechanicals in them instead of the stupid decision to put them in the attic.

Like I initially stated in the first post:

"In any event, in freezing climates the line should have been run with anticipated freezing in mind, (IE, approved receptor with gap at the interior)."

Obviously having the furnace inside is the best option but not everyone can afford to have a basement or move there furnace because there might be a cold snap every ten to twenty years. One option is to use a condensate pump. The water is relatively warm and is discharged in a big spurt rather than a continuous drip. The overflow switch can be wired to shut down the entire system in the event it ever does freeze over. The other thing is the condensate could be run into the waste vent line in the attic through a trap, but some municipalities do not allow condensate to the sewer system.

One of the topics or solutions was to direct the condensate into the sanitary sewer system, as some have state many municipalities do not allow this...
Another solution was a condensate pump since it is forced and concentrated and may be the best solution for this area. We are in the transition zone, that means that this event while no common it is not unexpected (even with global warming (the reason i moved here)).
The builders are no help and they just apply band-aides to get through the warranty period, I am looking for good solutions so i can inform my clients.

The "gap" in my comment is what causes the connection to not be a direct connection. It is in the codes and has been for a long time. The condensate falls through open air into the receptor as the condensate line terminates above a waste line that is trapped. Very common and in all the codes.

Originally Posted by Jeff Zehnder

One of the topics or solutions was to direct the condensate into the sanitary sewer system, as some have state many municipalities do not allow this...
Another solution was a condensate pump since it is forced and concentrated and may be the best solution for this area. We are in the transition zone, that means that this event while no common it is not unexpected (even with global warming (the reason i moved here)).
The builders are no help and they just apply band-aides to get through the warranty period, I am looking for good solutions so i can inform my clients.

Zeff, the AHJ may allow a separate drain to the sanitary sewer for the condensing furnace due to the freeze issue. Check with them and let us know what you find.

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Zeff, the AHJ may allow a separate drain to the sanitary sewer for the condensing furnace due to the freeze issue. Check with them and let us know what you find.

Only with an indirect connection. The "gap". I would in no way use a direct connection.

Definition:

INDIRECT WASTE PIPE. A waste pipe that does not connect directly with the drainage system, but that discharges into the drainage system through an air break or air gap into a trap, fixture, receptor or interceptor.

I am a little curious though. When the unit is heating there should not be any condensate. When the unit is cooling, (warm days), the line should be draining free and clear to the point of the trap.

Which raises the questions.

Is the condensate line properly sloped to drain? Where is the trap located on the line?

Originally Posted by JeffGHooper

I am a little curious though. When the unit is heating there should not be any condensate. When the unit is cooling, (warm days), the line should be draining free and clear to the point of the trap.

Which raises the questions.

Is the condensate line properly sloped to drain? Where is the trap located on the line?

The furnace is a high efficiency condensing furnace which produces condensate in the heat exchanger.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by JeffGHooper

Only with an indirect connection. The "gap". I would in no way use a direct connection.

Definition:

INDIRECT WASTE PIPE. A waste pipe that does not connect directly with the drainage system, but that discharges into the drainage system through an air break or air gap into a trap, fixture, receptor or interceptor.

The gap is easily created by using a T on its side with the condensate line connected to the top and the side of the T open.

Just remember that drains that do not see water except from the appliance need a trap primer or some other provision to keep the trap from drying out in the off season. With a dry trap, sewer gas entry into the home can be an issue.
Although I don't think this is addressed in the IRC for residential, commercial floor drains, etc. require a trap primer.

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

Just remember that drains that do not see water except from the appliance need a trap primer or some other provision to keep the trap from drying out in the off season. With a dry trap, sewer gas entry into the home can be an issue.
Although I don't think this is addressed in the IRC for residential, commercial floor drains, etc. require a trap primer.

I often see the condensate run into the laundry drain to use its trap.

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

I often see the condensate run into the laundry drain to use its trap.

As long as there is an air gap that is an approved indirect disposal, and the trap will not be dry due to using the washer. Actually a good location for an indirect waste line connection..

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

I often see the condensate run into the laundry drain to use its trap.

Originally Posted by JeffGHooper

As long as there is an air gap that is an approved indirect disposal, and the trap will not be dry due to using the washer. Actually a good location for an indirect waste line connection..

Into a laundry sink, into a laundry sink tailpiece, into a clothes washer standpipe?

If run through an air gap into a tailpiece under a laundry sink (especially if the laundry sink has a cabinet below it) the owner will be very surprised when the trap clogs up and, because he cannot see the trap clogging up, finds water running out of the cabinet ... because that is where the water is going to run out when there is a blockage in that trap outlet.

Clothes washer standpipe would be my bet!

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I've been pointing that convoluted and incorrect use of "visual inspection" for many years now ... it is inspector lore and just will not go away (HI schools are still "teaching it", I guess).

Back when home inspections first started, yeah, they were "visual inspections" ... but after a few inspections and those old timers realizing that they needed to "see better", they started carrying flashlights, then they want to "see inside" things, they started carrying screw drivers ... that was back in the 1970s or earlier ... and AT THAT TIME ... home inspections were no longer just "visual inspections".

I love the statement "......refer to a professional XXXXX...." While I understand the reasoning behind it, PYA, it makes me laugh when I see it as many of the "professional XXX" are not that professional or good. (Tempering my previous statements)

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I've been pointing that convoluted and incorrect use of "visual inspection" for many years now ... it is inspector lore and just will not go away (HI schools are still "teaching it", I guess).

Back when home inspections first started, yeah, they were "visual inspections" ... but after a few inspections and those old timers realizing that they needed to "see better", they started carrying flashlights, then they want to "see inside" things, they started carrying screw drivers ... that was back in the 1970s or earlier ... and AT THAT TIME ... home inspections were no longer just "visual inspections".

I love the statement "......refer to a professional XXXXX...." While I understand the reasoning behind it, PYA, it makes me laugh when I see it as many of the "professional XXX" are not that professional or good. (Tempering my previous statements)

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Obviously having the furnace inside is the best option but not everyone can afford to have a basement or move there furnace because there might be a cold snap every ten to twenty years. One option is to use a condensate pump. The water is relatively warm and is discharged in a big spurt rather than a continuous drip. The overflow switch can be wired to shut down the entire system in the event it ever does freeze over. The other thing is the condensate could be run into the waste vent line in the attic through a trap, but some municipalities do not allow condensate to the sewer system.

When I developed specifications for communications equipment rooms for large corporations (retired now) that had in many cases self contained AC units within the conditioned space----I NEVER ALLOWED CONDENSATE PUMPS. Gravity drains only. Reason---no matter how many alarms on it, when it broke it always was a big mess. Read that BIG mess. The other specification was copper pipe. Reason---found stuff growing in plastic pipe, but not in copper.

But the easy fix is the pump.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Obviously having the furnace inside is the best option but not everyone can afford to have a basement or move there furnace because there might be a cold snap every ten to twenty years. One option is to use a condensate pump. The water is relatively warm and is discharged in a big spurt rather than a continuous drip. The overflow switch can be wired to shut down the entire system in the event it ever does freeze over. The other thing is the condensate could be run into the waste vent line in the attic through a trap, but some municipalities do not allow condensate to the sewer system.

When I developed specifications for communications equipment rooms for large corporations (retired now) that had in many cases self contained AC units within the conditioned space----I NEVER ALLOWED CONDENSATE PUMPS. Gravity drains only. Reason---no matter how many alarms on it, when it broke it always was a big mess. Read that BIG mess. The other specification was copper pipe. Reason---found stuff growing in plastic pipe, but not in copper.

But the easy fix is the pump.

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

I love the statement "......refer to a professional XXXXX...." While I understand the reasoning behind it, PYA, it makes me laugh when I see it as many of the "professional XXX" are not that professional or good. (Tempering my previous statements)

- - - Updated - - -


I love the statement "......refer to a professional XXXXX...." While I understand the reasoning behind it, PYA, it makes me laugh when I see it as many of the "professional XXX" are not that professional or good. (Tempering my previous statements)

The reasoning is sound as you stated. All trades have their bad. HI are certainly no exception and still the low man on the totem pole with the vast majority not knowing what they are even looking at in Florida, let alone how to correct it. With education the HI will get better and NOT have to refer to anyone. Those who refer to XXXX are just middlemen that can be eliminated by hiring the XXXX to start with.

I reviewed a report from an HI in Melbourne, I will not post his name. This was in his report.

Electrical, appears serviceable, further evaluation and repair by a licensed electrician.
Plumbing, appears serviceable, further evaluation and repair by a licensed plumber.
Mechanical, appears serviceable, further evaluation and repair by a licensed A/C contractor.

First off, "appears serviceable" has always stumped me. What the hell does it mean? Does it need service? Can it be serviced? Should it be serviced? More old school instructors teaching the new what they "think" will keep them out of court. Tells the client nothing, zip, nadda. Just confuses the crap out of people.

Second, if I have to hire all these people after he was there, why the hell did I hire him? Useless!!!!

I have taught numerous classes to HI's over the years and have an entire section on "appears serviceable". You will never find that in one of my reports, Jerry's reports or ANY HI's report that knows what they are doing.

So, Jeff, I take it that you're encouraging home inspectors to practice engineering without having adequate training or a P.E. license? After all, engineers are just more of those pesky "XXXX third-party people" that you have no use for.

Originally Posted by BridgeMan

So, Jeff, I take it that you're encouraging home inspectors to practice engineering without having adequate training or a P.E. license? After all, engineers are just more of those pesky "XXXX third-party people" that you have no use for.

No, I am saying that if there is a problem, say there is a problem. Identify it. Tell them the "cracks look severe, the cracks have lateral movement, the cracks are V shaped indicating movement, the cracks are not transferring load ect." Then tell them to have an Engineer specify a correction. It is all about you learning your business. A large number of HI's do not know their business and are just passing the buck. A HI should know what cracks are important, and which ones are not. I see them telling customers that the cracks are typical and normal for the age of the house, when the photo shows a stress crack with both vertical and lateral movement. I have also seen where an inspector called out the cracking as major, when all it was, was plastic cracking due to hot weather cementing.

Bottom line, if you are going to inspect, then learn about what you are inspecting. We have over 8,000 Home Inspectors, (puppies) in Florida doing inspections. And only about 300 to 1,000 or so of those Home Inspectors are real (big dogs). Not talking about company size, talking about knowledgeable home inspectors who actually know what they are doing. Guys who do not say the guts are falling out of the back of the refrigerator. Who know the difference between a barge board, freeze board, lookout, and fascia board. That know what a Helical anchors is and what it means when you see one installed. That know that saddles are not located under doors and only appear on horses and roofs.

I tell inspectors to put yourself in your clients shoes. What would you want to hear from your inspector. Some convoluted word like "appears serviceable", hell my wife is serviceable, just not by everyone. Dinner is serviceable. Homes are either working or not. They are either damaged or not. HI's need to quit placating Realtors and quit trying to CYA because it only comes back to bite you.

Originally Posted by JeffGHooper

I reviewed a report from an HI in Melbourne, I will not post his name. This was in his report.

Electrical, appears serviceable, further evaluation and repair by a licensed electrician.
Plumbing, appears serviceable, further evaluation and repair by a licensed plumber.
Mechanical, appears serviceable, further evaluation and repair by a licensed A/C contractor.

First off, "appears serviceable" has always stumped me. What the hell does it mean?

Agreed, but to make it even worse ... IF the:
- Electrical, appears serviceable
- Plumbing, appears serviceable
- Mechanical, appears serviceable

... then why on earth would one recommend "further evaluation and repair by a licensed ..."?

That HI said it was "serviceable", why recommend any "evaluation" or "repair"?

Like Jeff, WTH does "appears serviceable" really mean? Especially when followed by a recommendation for evaluation and repair ... ??? That's just plain .

Originally Posted by Jeff Zehnder

Just wondering what the group thinks or if anyone has had a similar experience to the following...

I had a customer who purchased a new home this January (2015) and withing days the small 1 inch condensate line to the exterior from the condensing furnace (and AC) froze and back filled the pipe until it ran freely into the attic space and then below into the homes living spaces.

The wonderful pan switches do not operate in the heat mode so the damage to the home was not prevented (they work so well for AC systems) and if they had worked during the recent cold (single digit) snap my customer may have been frozen in their homes when the heat shut down.
This raises a series of questions.
How to prevent the pipe from freezing?
A larger diameter (exterior) pipe, heat tape on PVC...
If it freezes how to prevent the damage during the back up?
Secondary drain?
Hope for global warming?

What to do now?

Jeff,

I live in a cold climate, to prevent the condensate pipe from freezing the last few feet are wrapped with foam insulation and heat taped. One genius HVAC guy saves money and time by installing a up facing T inline to prevent water from backing up into the heating unit. I call it out because water can potentially be discharged into the attic or crawlspace. But I give points for enginuity!!

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Jeff Zehnder

Just wondering what the group thinks or if anyone has had a similar experience to the following...

I had a customer who purchased a new home this January (2015) and withing days the small 1 inch condensate line to the exterior from the condensing furnace (and AC) froze and back filled the pipe until it ran freely into the attic space and then below into the homes living spaces.

The wonderful pan switches do not operate in the heat mode so the damage to the home was not prevented (they work so well for AC systems) and if they had worked during the recent cold (single digit) snap my customer may have been frozen in their homes when the heat shut down.
This raises a series of questions.
How to prevent the pipe from freezing?
A larger diameter (exterior) pipe, heat tape on PVC...
If it freezes how to prevent the damage during the back up?
Secondary drain?
Hope for global warming?

What to do now?

Jeff,

I live in a cold climate, to prevent the condensate pipe from freezing the last few feet are wrapped with foam insulation and heat taped. One genius HVAC guy saves money and time by installing a up facing T inline to prevent water from backing up into the heating unit. I call it out because water can potentially be discharged into the attic or crawlspace. But I give points for enginuity!!

- - - Updated - - -


Jeff,

I live in a cold climate, to prevent the condensate pipe from freezing the last few feet are wrapped with foam insulation and heat taped. One genius HVAC guy saves money and time by installing a up facing T inline to prevent water from backing up into the heating unit. I call it out because water can potentially be discharged into the attic or crawlspace. But I give points for enginuity!!

Sean, I lived and built in Northern Minnesota, (Bemidji area), for 15 years. You are right to call it out as that is exactly what can happen. Likewise I call out the pumps as they can fail.

It is really very simple and all codes provide for it. The disposal of condensate can occur at the interior through an indirect connection, including a sump. It is what we did there and it works.