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  1. #1
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    Question Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    I have a rental property which had the original furnace from 1976 in it. This was an upflow furnace with the coil mounted on top sitting directly on concrete floor Intake on the old furnace was side mounted. Heat exchange is cracked, needs replacing. The old furnace was 50" high , the replacement is a Goodman GMS80604BN 33 3/8" high. My options for making this fit are either to fabricate/buy a plenum to connect to the coil above, or raise the furnace off the floor and cut ~17" off the side intake duct.

    Raising it seems to be the easiest solution, however, what am I allowed to mount it on that would be up to code in VA? Is there any reason I can't make a base of 16x8 concrete blocks and a plywood platform below to raise it? I've seen this more commonly done in a garage where it is required to be raised but idk if it would fly for a basement. If not, any recommendations on a platform that would fit this unit and raise it up by 16 5/8"?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Blankenship View Post
    I have a rental property which had the original furnace from 1976 in it. This was an upflow furnace with the coil mounted on top sitting directly on concrete floor Intake on the old furnace was side mounted. Heat exchange is cracked, needs replacing. The old furnace was 50" high , the replacement is a Goodman GMS80604BN 33 3/8" high. My options for making this fit are either to fabricate/buy a plenum to connect to the coil above, or raise the furnace off the floor and cut ~17" off the side intake duct.

    Raising it seems to be the easiest solution, however, what am I allowed to mount it on that would be up to code in VA? Is there any reason I can't make a base of 16x8 concrete blocks and a plywood platform below to raise it? I've seen this more commonly done in a garage where it is required to be raised but idk if it would fly for a basement. If not, any recommendations on a platform that would fit this unit and raise it up by 16 5/8"?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.
    Matt,

    First off, as home inspectors, we typically are dealing with existing systems and related problems rather than designing and installing new. My recommendation to any homeowner who is doing something as complex as replacing a furnace is to hire a licensed heating contractor who is familiar with state and local requirements and can properly size the appliance. This is an extremely complex process and not as straightforward as it seems.

    The two issues here are specific knowledge of requirements for your area of Virginia (local jurisdictions often have additional requirements above and beyond state codes) and the liability that one of us would incur by designing a heating system from afar.

    You might be able to get some input by going to HVAC-Talk. But again, even though I have spent my entire professional life in the construction trades and as an inspector, I would hire a heating contractor.

    Department of Redundancy Department
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Matt,
    .
    .
    My recommendation to any homeowner who is doing something as complex as replacing a furnace is to hire a licensed heating contractor who is familiar with state and local requirements and can properly size the appliance. This is an extremely complex process and not as straightforward as it seems.
    Especially with the property being a rental property.

    It's one thing to put your own family at risk, it's an entirely different thing to put a tenant at risk (you could be held liable for any injuries, sickness, or death which can in any way be tied back to any part of your work.

    Put that liability on a licensed contractor with insurance.

    And, if liability isn't enough ... would you be able to enjoy life after causing, or being part of the cause, of another ... so you could save a few bucks?

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Wow. Not quite the responses I was expecting.

    The biggest danger to the occupants here is that existing furnace. They called me for having to frequently relight the pilot, which was when I checked the system and determined the heat exchange is cracked. Because of the possibility of leaking flue gases into the home if it is turned on again, the gas to it has been shut off, electric disconnected, and it's been tagged as unusable. I've already pulled the permits with the county to do the replacement.

    If anyone else find this thread and has a similar question, I found my answer. Local code here defers to NFPA 54 / ANSI Z223.1 standards, which in turn references manufacturer documentation for clearances.

    Relevant section to having plywood in part of the base - "Ensure upflow or horizontal furnaces are not installed directly on carpeting, or any other combustible material. The only combustible material allowed is wood."

    Additionally I have to have an installation base sized an extra 1-1.5" above furnace dimensions on all sides.

    Also discovered the existing gas lines will need a drip leg added to be in compliance.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Good luck cough-cough BOOM GOES THE TENANT


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Blankenship View Post
    Wow. Not quite the responses I was expecting.

    The biggest danger to the occupants here is that existing furnace. They called me for having to frequently relight the pilot, which was when I checked the system and determined the heat exchange is cracked.
    Which is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY as the landlord.

    When YOU replace it yourself instead of hiring a licenced contractor ... YOU now become RESPONSIBLE for everything related to that furnace YOU installed.

    Not quite the responses you were seeking?

    That's because you weren't asking the right questions ... we gave you the information you NEED ... what you do, or don't do, with that information is up to you.

    You essentially asked us 'how can I potentially kill my tenants', we basically answered ' put the weapon down and back away' ... but the choice is yours.

    Jerry Peck
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    I asked a building code related question, on a board I mistakenly believed was full of people knowledgeable on the subject. No one actually answered the question.

    Instead, I get unbased remarks assuming I lack the mechanical knowledge to do the job. Anything I do is going to have to pass inspection before being put into service, which is why I wanted to make sure it would be up to code.

    I can't tell if you guys are jaded from seeing so many bad installs... or genuinely think this is that complicated. If it's the latter, yikes. The average level of knowledge in this country is dropping at astounding levels. Better not ride in the car I've got outside either, I rebuilt the motor in it a couple months ago, it could fly apart at any second.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Matt
    You're on a professional Home Inspectors forum asking how an unlicensed person can install a killing device in a rental unit. proper code is to have it permitted by city and installed by a licensed hvac contractor---did you expect the profession from this forum tell you anything different. Jerry was right go to the HVAC forum and see what they think

    good luck and install many co detectors


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Blankenship View Post
    Instead, I get unbased remarks assuming I lack the mechanical knowledge to do the job.
    No one is commenting on your mechanical knowledge, either lack of or proficient in, what is being commented on, and you are apparently still missing that point, is that you are asking questions about doing work ON A RENTAL PROPERTY and that work can ... and does ...and more frequently than you may like to think ... create/cause the potential injury and/or death.

    Are you a licensed contractor?

    If so, then I would presume that you have the insurance necessary to cover your work?

    If not ...

    Yes, if not ... have a licensed contractor do the install for you BECAUSE THIS IS A RENTAL PROPERTY, and you are not placing yourself (and your family) in harms way, you are asking someone else to pay you for the privilege of you placing them in harms way ... er ... you are not even "asking" them, you are just simply doing it, and their only recourse will be for - as I used to tell my clients when I was doing inspections - "the surviving spouse" will come knocking on your door with a letter asking you to move out so they may take your house and live in it (they may want your car too) ... and, no, the letter you receive will not state that, but that could be the result if you do not have enough other assets (don't count on your car as being sufficient to cover it).

    You are simply not thinking about the right aspects of the job, and therefore not asking the right questions.

    Your capabilities? Does not matter.

    Heck, you may even be able to do a better install than some contractors we have been behind. But that does not matter either.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    Matt
    You're on a professional Home Inspectors forum asking how an unlicensed person can install a killing device in a rental unit. proper code is to have it permitted by city and installed by a licensed hvac contractor---did you expect the profession from this forum tell you anything different. Jerry was right go to the HVAC forum and see what they think

    good luck and install many co detectors
    Already have the permits from the city, and per VA TITLE 54.1-1101 owner or landlord is permitted to self install, you only have to be a licensed hvac contractor to perform work for someone else.

    And no, I don't rent properties as a primary source of income. I actually only have this one rental. I work in construction as an ESC contractor.

    Gotta love the term "killing device"... Tide Pods can kill you, if you do something stupid with them.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Blankenship View Post
    Already have the permits from the city, and per VA TITLE 54.1-1101 owner or landlord is permitted to self install, you only have to be a licensed hvac contractor to perform work for someone else.
    Gosh, I didn't see you include anything in there about liability and what happens when someone is injured, becomes sick, or does, as a result of your installation in a house that you won't be living in.

    The old saying is "A man's home is his castle", therefore be gets protections there ... but a rental unit isn't your home.

    Have you seen the meme: What is the secret to eternal happiness?

    Person A asks: What is the secret to eternal happiness?

    Person B replies: To not argue with fools.

    Person A responds: I disagree

    Perdon B replies; Yes you are right.

    We've been Person B.

    Jerry Peck
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Actually, the question was pretty basic, and likely didn't rise to the level of scolding sarcasm that was posted after the warnings and dangers were previously stated.

    I recommend you reach out to HVAC techs in your area for a consult, as they have undoubtedly run across this scenario many times before. Their experience with either a locally approved platform or a plenum upgrade/extension should point you in the right direction, if you chose to fabricate your own. After all, you can't be the only homeowner in your region with this configuration, someone else already has a solution worked out by now. (Installers who see this on a regular basis already know how to address it).

    Additionally, many HVAC equipment manufacturers (and 3rd party manufacturers of related supplies) have approved platforms/stands already available for furnaces or air handlers that meet local codes. Google them.

    You'll probably find that some jurisdictions allow certain types of installs while others do not. It's typically a local thing.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Dom - Appreciate getting an actual response. I did find the answer to my question, and as you stated, it does vary by region. Around here, what I had planned to do I am told will pass. Found some info online that I had posted above, and then ran the plans by someone my brother knows who works in the HVAC industry.

    After looking at Jerry's website, I see it's his job to find ways to sue people. I'm sure in his mind, I'm some slum landlord trying to put people in danger. Reality could be that I was trying to sell my old house when someone I know lost theirs and couldn't afford to live anywhere. I'm renting it at cost to try to help them and after taxes am probably losing a little money every month. The alternative is to throw my hands in the air, say it's uninhabitable, and put the tenants out on the street. But that wasn't really necessary to include in what should have been a basic question.

    I'm out of this thread and forum now. Nothing to gain by continuing to argue with someone on the internet. Maybe next time someone asks a question in here, Jerry can help answer it instead of feeling the need to elaborate on how self-important his opinion is.

    I believe there's another meme out there - "Arguing with someone on the internet is like wrestling with a pig in the mud.

    After a couple hours, you realize the pig likes it."

    Last edited by Matt Blankenship; 04-18-2020 at 07:16 AM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Blankenship View Post
    After looking at Jerry's website, I see it's his job to find ways to sue people. I'm sure in his mind, I'm some slum landlord trying to put people in danger.
    Not at all correct in your presumption.

    I'm trying to awaken you to your liability in you replacing it.

    Reality could be that I was trying to sell my old house when someone I know lost theirs and couldn't afford to live anywhere. I'm renting it at cost to try to help them and after taxes am probably losing a little money every month. The alternative is to throw my hands in the air, say it's uninhabitable, and put the tenants out on the street.
    While that is noble of you, that does not address the liability you are putting on yourself. If you are willing to fall on your sword, so be it. I am still recommending that you allow a licensed contractor to 'fall on their sword' should something happen.

    Here is the meme I was referring to - it still applies (and we, as Person B, still need to work on our part)

    Added with edit as it applies here:

    Abraham Lincoln is reported to have said: A man who represents himself, has a fool for a client.

    Just because one "can" do something, does not mean that one "should" that something.

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    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 04-18-2020 at 06:21 PM. Reason: Added Abraham Lincoln quote
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  15. #15
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    Cool Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Matt, every HVAC contractor I know uses antivibration pads (aka "biscuits") under the air handler. These cork filled/ neoprene squares raise the unit about 1.25". This reduces noise but also may extend the life of the unit.
    Set the AHU. Measure and fabricate the gap to the coil and make up a transition with duct work. This provides a convenient way to access the underside of the coil for cleaning and inspection.

    Of course, all ductwork needs to be installed per the code including closure systems meeting NFPA 90 a & b.

    When tying in the return, it should be evaluated for proper sizing before just re-installing. The shape of the return as it attaches to the return plenum can have a huge impact on the performance. Part of this evaluation includes performance testing measuring duct pressures and delta T. When this is done with a combustion furnace then combustion analysis should be done to guide tuning the burners for proper operation and venting. Even with a heat pump or straight air conditioning, you'll need to conduct testing to possibly adjust the charge, fan speed or air flow since the system is being radically changed. The type of thermostat may need to be changed for optimum performance. The whole refrigerant system needs to be leak tested from disturbing it. You mentioned adding a "drip leg". You mean a "sediment trap". That means someone competent has to leak test the piping. What about the venting? Did you have it professionally inspected? Is it a listed vent system? Do you have it inspected and serviced annually? Do you have low level carbon monoxide monitors to protect the occupants?

    If all this sounds technical its because it is. That's part of why a qualified HVAC technician should do this work. That's all. We know the internet has been a boon for the DIY'ers. We are flooded with TV shows giving horrible advice. Note they rarely address the HVAC system on these flips and improvements. I've never seen a level II chimney inspection much less a proper restoration and relining. You never see or hear about how these jobs turned out years later. It's all butterflies and puppy dogs.

    If your area allows DIY work, that's fine. Does your insurance carrier cover this property even if an unlicensed person does the HVAC? Will the AHJ inspect it?

    Yes, there has been some strong language here. They're trying to get your attention. The 'killer' comment was for shock value. HVAC systems can kill if improperly installed or maintained. We're all just trying to help. A lot of people get insulted and mad when they seek answers for which they know they're asking the wrong questions. You should rewind your tape and reconsider this project from the start. There are some things that probably are a safe bet for a landlord to tackle and some not. It takes discernment to know the difference.

    Let me leave you with this thought: IF something goes wrong and there is an incident resulting in personal injury you can be held not only liable for damages. You possibly could be held over on criminal charges. Let that sink in.

    I hope you make good choices.
    Shalom

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Bob, cork vibration pads are an excellent idea. I've more commonly seen them installed on large air compressors, but they would certainly work in this application.

    The existing return will be re-used, and is already properly rounded off at the bottom. Doing as little modification to the duct work as possible here, with the exception of replacing the return grill with one that has a built in spot for a filter. The existing system had the filters housed inside the blower housing - total no-go, but I guess that was acceptable in the 70s? Also cleaning the entire return while both ends are disconnected, and foil taping some joints that look as though they weren't well sealed before.

    The thermostat itself is about 5 years old, and shouldn't be an issue. Correction to my terminology, "sediment trap" will need to be added to the system. New furnace is 80%, classified Category I, still more efficient than the one it was replacing, but doesn't require a UL listed vent. There are existing CO monitors in the house.

    The only real adjustment on this unit is a 4 speed blower. I have the tools to measure temperature, and I'm fairly certain I can buy a friend lunch to borrow a magnehelic for a day. Obviously this will require some testing, but I don't anticipate any issues dialing it in to be reasonably close. (This is an efficiency issue more than a safety issue at this point)

    After work is completed per the permit, I am required contact local authority to come out and inspect it. Thus the reason for the initial question, I don't want to have to call them out twice.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Blankenship View Post
    New furnace is 80%, classified Category I, still more efficient than the one it was replacing, but doesn't require a UL listed vent. There are existing CO monitors in the house.
    "New furnace is 80%, classified Category I, ... but doesn't require a UL listed vent"

    What type of vent does the manufacturer's installation instructions require? The codes state that appliances shall be installed in accordance with the code and ... and ... the manufacturer's installation instructions (whichever is more restrictive applies, that is what that "and" does).

    2015 Virginia Existing Building Code ( https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/VE..._Ch06_Sec601.2 ) (bold and underlining are mine)

    601.2.1 Level 1.
    - blah, blah, blah Level 1 alterations shall comply with the applicable provisions of Section 602.


    602.3.5 International Fuel Gas Code.
    - blah, blah, blah
    - - 1. blah, blah, blah
    - - 2. blah, blah, blah
    - - 3. All of Chapter 5, entitled "Chimneys and Vents."
    - - 4.blah, blah, blah


    From the 2015 Virginia Fuel Gas Code, which is the IFGC: ( https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/VF...neys-and-vents ) (bold and underlining are mine)


    Chapter 5
    - Chimneys and Vents


    - Section 502 (IFGC)
    - - Vents
    - - - 502.1 General.
    - - - - Vents, except as provided in Section 503.7, shall be listed and labeled. Type B and BW vents shall be tested in accordance with UL 441. Type L vents shall be tested in accordance with UL 641. Vents for Category II and III appliances shall be tested in accordance with UL 1738. Plastic vents for Category IV appliances shall not be required to be listed and labeled where such vents are as specified by the appliance manufacturer and are installed in accordance with the appliance manufacturer's instructions.


    - - 503.7 Single-wall metal pipe.
    - - - Single-wall metal pipe vents shall comply with Sections 503.7.1 through 503.7.13.
    - - - - (too much to type, however, this section serverly limits the use of single-wall pipe vents)

    Based on 502.1, your 80% furnace, Category I, vent "shall be listed and labeled. Type B and BW vents shall be tested in accordance with UL 441" (Type B gas vent) ... unless you are able to use a single-wall pipe vent with its restrictions and limitations of where it can be used.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction Litigation Consultant ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Actually, upgrading to an 80% furnace triggers a level II inspection which will surely call for a listed vent system. For a CAT I appliance, this means either a listed B-vent or a listed chimney liner. Not sure where you're getting your information.

    CO alarms may meet the requirements of the code but don't protect you. That's why I recommended a low level monitor.

    Sounds like you have it all figured out. Good luck with your installation.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    Actually, upgrading to an 80% furnace triggers a level II inspection which will surely call for a listed vent system. For a CAT I appliance, this means either a listed B-vent or a listed chimney liner. Not sure where you're getting your information.

    CO alarms may meet the requirements of the code but don't protect you. That's why I recommended a low level monitor.

    Sounds like you have it all figured out. Good luck with your installation.
    That is an interesting point, as the intent was not to modify the existing flue and vent, if a category II inspection is triggered, there is a possibility they may require existing equipment to be replaced. Honestly don't know if the existing vent was UL listed or not as the install predates my owning the property. It passed inspection when the water heater (shared vent) was replaced, but no one went up on the roof to check the vent at that time.

    Regarding CO monitor, two of the three are a First Alert model that only goes off at a dangerously high level. If I understand right it takes something like 150ppm to set these things off? The other added after the furnace started having issues is a model with a digital readout. Supposedly real time display anything reading over 10ppm. Correct me if I'm wrong, the UL standard for these is basically useless because there's nothing governing anything above their "minimums"?

    Last edited by Matt Blankenship; 04-21-2020 at 09:06 AM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    I suggest some research into unlisted low level CO monitors such as the NSI 3000 made for the National Comfort Institute. The UL 2034 std. is the problem. They've dummied it down to the point these listed alarms are now merely death alarms. The algorithms are designed to alert only once you meet the medical definition of CO poisoning for smokers- 10% COHb.

    A listed alarm is designed not to alert until it's read 69ppm for 30 days/ 70 ppm up to 4 hrs. and so on. Unlisted monitors typically begin chirping around 15 and alert at 30ppm/ 60 seconds. They have reliable electrochemical sensors instead of a cheap metal oxide sensor that alerts at hairspray and dozens of other indoor pollutants.

    Keep the fire in the fireplace.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Harper View Post
    I suggest some research into unlisted low level CO monitors such as the NSI 3000 made for the National Comfort Institute. The UL 2034 std. is the problem. They've dummied it down to the point these listed alarms are now merely death alarms. The algorithms are designed to alert only once you meet the medical definition of CO poisoning for smokers- 10% COHb.

    A listed alarm is designed not to alert until it's read 69ppm for 30 days/ 70 ppm up to 4 hrs. and so on. Unlisted monitors typically begin chirping around 15 and alert at 30ppm/ 60 seconds. They have reliable electrochemical sensors instead of a cheap metal oxide sensor that alerts at hairspray and dozens of other indoor pollutants.
    The third one I mentioned having is a Kidde KN-COU-B. I had to look up the manual on it, says 20ppm alarms after 115m / 70ppm alarms after 20m / 150ppm after 7.5m . Visual indication and blinking LED alert on 20ppm 20min+ / 70ppm+ for any amount of time.

    Last edited by Matt Blankenship; 04-22-2020 at 07:33 AM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Base for new furnace replacing older, larger model

    Thanks for the actual meme Jerry. Tried to wrap my head around it for a bit but it made sense immediately in that format.

    Let me add two more thoughts on the discussion of 'discussions':

    When you argue with a fool be sure he isn't similarly occupied.


    Never argue with a fool. But if you must, the safest way is to carry on the debate with yourself.

    Egbert Jager
    Diamond Home Inspection
    http://www.diamondhomeinspection.ca

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