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  1. #1
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    Default Outlet above baseboard

    I know outlets are not permitted above electric radiant baseboard. Howerver, are they permitted above hot water or glycol baseboard if the temps are below 180 degrees.

    Mat

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    I know outlets are not permitted above electric radiant baseboard. Howerver, are they permitted above hot water or glycol baseboard if the temps are below 180 degrees.

    Mat
    If they aren't, I'm in big trouble. Just electric, as far as I know.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    John,
    You and me both. I have a guy who is trying to tell the buyers they are not permitted.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Not good - 2005 NEC Section 210.52.

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    Jerry McCarthy
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Jerry Mc,

    Is that diagram of an electric baseboard or any type of baseboard heating?

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Hi Gunner, any baseboard in that anything that produces heat has to be a hazard to # 14 (zip-cord rubber/plastic wrapped) electrical conductors. I mean how long can you hold your hand on top of one of those HW/thermo type baseboard heaters? Not long I suspect.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Actually, the issue is not that clear ... it is rather muddied, in fact.

    From the NEC:
    210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
    (excerpt from)
    - Permanently installed electric baseboard heaters equipped with factory-installed receptacle outlets or outlets provided as a separate assembly by the manufacturer shall be permitted as the required outlet or outlets for the wall space utilized by such permanently installed heaters. Such receptacle outlets shall not be connected to the heater circuits.
    - - FPN: Listed baseboard heaters include instructions that may not permit their installation below receptacle outlets.

    All that is really saying is that receptacle outlets installed in electric baseboard heaters *may* be counted *as the required receptacle* for a given wall space, provided, of course, that the receptacle outlet is not connected to the heater circuit.

    It does not state that a receptacle outlet is not allowed above the baseboard heater.

    HOWEVER ... the FPN (Fine Print Note, which is not enforceable) reminds us that a listed baseboard heater " MAY NOT PERMIT " ... correct ... "may not permit" their installation below receptacle outlets.

    That said, WC Jerry is correct in that "safety" overcomes "minimum code" every time (regardless what the AHJ says), and the HI should report on the "safety" aspect.

    Is it allowed to install baseboard heat below a receptacle?

    Sure ... *as long as* ... as long as the listing and installation instructions for the baseboard heater say it is okay.

    Being as I have never read the installation instructions for any baseboard heaters (we had them in our house up in New York when I was a kid, but have not needed them since moving to Florida), I would go with WC Jerry and address the "safety" aspect of it. Now, if perchance you find the installation instructions, I would be curious to know if any allow their baseboard heaters to be installed below receptacles, and if any specifically dis-allow it.

    Would be interesting to find out if any address the issue, and which way the issue is addressed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    Is it allowed to install baseboard heat below a receptacle?


    Sure ... *as long as* ... as long as the listing and installation instructions for the baseboard heater say it is okay.

    Being as I have never read the installation instructions for any baseboard heaters (we had them in our house up in New York when I was a kid, but have not needed them since moving to Florida), I would go with WC Jerry and address the "safety" aspect of it. Now, if perchance you find the installation instructions, I would be curious to know if any allow their baseboard heaters to be installed below receptacles, and if any specifically dis-allow it.

    Would be interesting to find out if any address the issue, and which way the issue is addressed.
    Dayton = nope

    Cadet = nope

    Marley = nope

    Qmark ( Marley design ) = nope

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Dayton = nope

    Cadet = nope

    Marley = nope

    Qmark ( Marley design ) = nope
    Okay, 4 'do not install below receptacle outlet'.

    That's a good start and is currently running at 100% 'nope, do not do that'.

    What about 'non-electric' baseboard heaters? What do they say and do they even address it?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Okay, 4 'do not install below receptacle outlet'.

    That's a good start and is currently running at 100% 'nope, do not do that'.

    What about 'non-electric' baseboard heaters? What do they say and do they even address
    it?
    Not Addressed.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Thanks for the info. Here is what I was told, although I am waiting to hear from the country inspector. If it is not electric it is OK. This is based on the temp range. Furthermore, the radiant baseboard will not exceed 180 degress. I know this is still hot so there in lies the confusion. Let me know what you guys come up with.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    I know outlets are not permitted above electric radiant baseboard. Howerver, are they permitted above hot water or glycol baseboard if the temps are below 180 degrees.

    Mat
    Since it's common for hydronic baseboard/fintube to be installed on all outside perimeter walls, there would be no way to meet the 6 ft. rule for electrical receptacles/outlets without having them above the hydronic baseboard.

    The short story is: The NEC doesn't address the situation except for electric baseboards.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    The short story is: The NEC doesn't address the situation except for electric baseboards.

    Actually, the NEC does address it with non-electric baseboards.

    1) The receptacle outlet spacing *is required* ... regardless.

    2) The receptacle outlet 'over' where the baseboard heater is to be located *may be part of the baseboard heater is it is a listed unit*.

    3) Yes, you could have a non-electric (hydronic) heat baseboard heater with a built-in receptacle and have the unit listed for that use. That would solve the problems. Are there any listed as such?

    4) However, if the non-electric baseboard heater *does not address* the issue and does not say to 'not install below receptacle outlets', then *it may be installed below electrical outlets*. Then the temperature becomes the question, and WC Jerry's point comes into play - but is it "safe".

    5) Some how or other, the receptacle outlets for spacing are required to be installed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Actually, the NEC does address it with non-electric baseboards.

    1) The receptacle outlet spacing *is required* ... regardless.

    2) The receptacle outlet 'over' where the baseboard heater is to be located *may be part of the baseboard heater is it is a listed unit*.

    3) Yes, you could have a non-electric (hydronic) heat baseboard heater with a built-in receptacle and have the unit listed for that use. That would solve the problems. Are there any listed as such?

    4) However, if the non-electric baseboard heater *does not address* the issue and does not say to 'not install below receptacle outlets', then *it may be installed below electrical outlets*. Then the temperature becomes the question, and WC Jerry's point comes into play - but is it "safe".

    5) Some how or other, the receptacle outlets for spacing are required to be installed.
    Are you now arguing just for the fun of it?

    Find a "listed" hydronic non electric baseboard. good luck.

    Of course the required outlet/receptacle spacing applies.

    Be honest Jerry, have you ever seen a hydronic base board installation that didn't have receptacle/outlets above the base board?

    I'm sure your response post will find something to pick at. Have fun


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    Are you now arguing just for the fun of it?
    Not arguing, just further explaining.

    Find a "listed" hydronic non electric baseboard. good luck.
    That's what I figured, however, my point was ... they *could* make them ...

    Be honest Jerry, have you ever seen a hydronic base board installation that didn't have receptacle/outlets above the base board?
    Being as I have been in 'no heating country' (Florida) since I was 10, I really can't say that I've seen many, if any, baseboard heaters. Just not something which is needed down here.

    I do recall having seen them when I was young and 'up there in cold country', but I must confess, at that age, wondering about code and baseboard heaters never really ever crossed my mind.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Thanks for admitting you have no experience with this real life situation in areas of the country that heat their homes with baseboard hydronic systems.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Outlet above baseboard

    Bill,

    See your reading the archives there.

    This thread is 2yrs. old.

    rick


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