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Ok, you find a Bradford White 40 gal./ 40Mbtu NG water heater common vented with a Weil McLain Gold 70Mbtu NG boiler into a masonry chimney. This is typical of what I see every day around Philly. Should look avg. to John, Joseph, and Nick as they are local H.I.s
First, comment on what you see. Then, tell me what you see that would suggest you dig a little deeper or is there anything else a home inspector should be concerned with based on what you see and have been given. Are you checking anything else or is everything you need for your report given to you here? I'll run with this for one day, then discuss Sat. nite.
Enjoy!
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disgusted with some people on this forum. Out of here!
245-104 (b) Metal Gas Piping. Each aboveground portion of a gas piping system upstream from the equipment shutoff valve shall be electrically continuous and bonded to the grounding electrode system.
Looks to me like gas should be bonded. Around here, the bonding clamp is typically placed adjacent to the meter, but I will occasionally find it at the water heater.
Interestingly enough, the 1999 NEC also suggests (not requires) bonding all piping and metal ducts.
(The diagrams are not mine. I probably snitched them from someone on this board.)
Breach for boiler too low? Insufficient slope on vent pipe?
No bond to hot water pipe at water heater.
Should have straight sections for at least 12 inches on top of draft hoods.
Insufficient support for vent pipes.
Not sure about that damper on horizontal section of boiler vent pipe.
I imagine there's about 26 other things, but hey, I'm not proud.
I had the same thought about the auto vent damper. According to Honeywell, their automatic vent damper can be installed horizintally, as long as the motor is on the sides, not the botttom or top.
Shut off valve on the hot side of the water heater makes me nervous. I guess turning off the valves on both sides with the heater on and a new load of cold water could be a way to test the TPR valve.
What is that badly-rusted tank (the one with the blue-handled gate valve to it) above the water tank?
The location for what I presume is the dryer receptacle outlet is creative. I do not like the way the cord is hanging out in space or that gravity is trying to pull it out. At least the receptacle outlet for the washing machine is closer to the wall.
Appears to be dryer vent pipe coming off boiler for the horizontal run. (I don’t do boilers.) It’s also a 90* turn. Can you do that if it's not high efficiency?
Appears longer than six feet cord on dryer and washer.
Can’t see how dryer vents, but it looks like they intend to vent it into the flue with the chimney and boiler.
I’d want to look inside the chimney to see how those appliances are exhausted.
Looks like a cross connection between the boiler and potable water and between expansion tank and potable water.
No backflow prevention seen.
Looks like some leeching going on at the concrete walls.
I’d want a closer look at the discoloration on the beam above the concrete.
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The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
- Paul Fix
Location: Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
Posts: 762
Re: Inspection exercise
The size of the original flue pipe openings at the bottom of the chimney (now mortared) appear to be about twice the size of the flue pipes currently in place for the boiler and water heater. Any evidence of improper drafting on these Bob?
See there? A lot of really good discussion. Made you get your thinking caps on. However, if you re-read my original post, I asked if there was anything ELSE you should be concerned about. Neal, Thom, and Nick picked up on which tree I was barking up. Take a look at these pics. The size shot is just to help you see what all is going on in the room.
However, when you open the cleanout, which is the pipe below the boiler breeching, you get pic #4. What does this tell you? It tells you to look at pic#6, which is the point of this exercise. It is too easy to get tunnel vision and note the trees instead of the forest. I know the ASHI, NACHI, and NAHI Standards of Practice exclude inspecting chimney flues. My point to you is this:
If you don't at least take a peek, you're likely to miss something like pic#6. At least pull the cleanout and using a mirror, verify you see daylight or the need to call a sweep. BTW, the codes are moving to require HVAC techs to inspect the breeching with a mirror and flashlight. If they note ANY defects or problems, they must notify the homeowner IN WRITING!
Guys, if this is my daughter's new house and you failed to note the signs of a flue problem and potential for blockage, I can guarantee you I will be suing you. Sure, your Standards may eventually get you off but not before it costs you time, money, and a whole lot of aggravation. I wouldn't bank on your Standards as a Get out of Jail Free card.
Look at the signs:
-old house
-new boiler
-high efficiency boiler
-WH orphanned in summer
-cold exterior masonry chimney
-inadequate vent connector rise
-single walled vent connectors
-lack of listed chimney liner
-clothes dryer next to heaters
-numerous cement patch jobs around the breech pipes and clean out indicating numerous times replacing things such as rotted out pipes or cleaning out flue tile remains
-boiler is turned off due to spill switch tripping. See the indicator bar on the vent damper horizontal? That means it is open. the power was switched off, which caused it to default open. Why did this switch trip? Doing its job!
-elbow off the WH draft hood without 12" rise means it is more prone to spillage. If exhaust spills, then what little does vent will condense like crazy and eat up a chimney.
They called me for a chief complaint of "water leaks" in the wall upstairs. While inspecting it, they asked me who could fix their boiler because that switch thingy kept tripping. Yes, they had been getting headaches and yes, the new liner goes in Tues.
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disgusted with some people on this forum. Out of here!
"However, when you open the clean out, which is the pipe below the boiler breeching..."
Bob,
And when I can't get the opening re-sealed... ?
You are in the business of inspecting chimneys and flues, and are qualified and equipped to re-seal what you open.
I'm not.
I'm certainly going to try to get a look from the top and bottom if I can do so safely and without risk of disturbing what I cannot return to its original condition (for example when there is an operable clean-out door), but I'm also not going attempt access to a breaching which may fall apart in the process, obliging me to pay the cost of *your* coming out and correcting a condition I'm neither qualified or equipped to repair, as a result of an inspection procedure that exceeds most SOPs.
Similarly, I'm not the HVAC tech, and I'm not qualified to perform the inspection and analysis required to determine that that the spill switch is tripping, and why.
As for your statement that in this situation you would sue the HI, knowing that you did not have a case and just to cost then time, money and aggravation...
Now, if you want to argue that I ought to defer the venting based on a visual observation of its arrangement and exterior condition, or the boiler based on it's cutting out during operation an/or visual evidence of spillage at the vent hood, I would agree with you.
But IMO it's not my job - because I'm not qualified or equipped to do so - to start disassembling branchings or trouble-shooting boilers.
Last edited by Michael Thomas : 05-20-2007 at 09:48 AM.
Location: Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
Posts: 762
Re: Inspection exercise
Michael, I believe the cleanout pipe beneath the boiler breach in Bob's pics has a removeable cap which generally can be removed and replaced with a minimum of effort. Some times a screw or two to remove but most of the caps are just jammed into the cleanout pipe. The cleanout pipe is not actually removed from the wall.
These caps are often removed easier and faster than deadfront covers on most service panels but that doesn't stop us from inspecting service panel interiors. The only time I do not remove cleanout caps is if they refuse to budge, if they are severly corroded, or if half the chimney is sitting in a pile of dust behind that cap and waiting to be set free onto the floor.
The house I looked at yesterday (next door to Bob in Clifton Heights) had a terra cotta flue liner that looked great when viewed from the top of the chimney looking down, no evidence of spalling or deterioration. But when I pulled the cap in the basement, I saw this.......
Michael, many of the home inspectors I have trained expressed similar thoughts as you. This is one of the most critical elements of a home inspection because it can make the difference btw a live referral versus a court case.
Nobody is asking you to use extraordinary means to inspect the flue. If there is a cleanout and the cap is easily removed without risk of structural damage or rotted out pipes falling out, then you should open it and inspect inside. If the pipes look so corroded you are afraid it will fall apart in your hands, isn't that a Red Flag to recommend a Level II inspection? If you fail to recognize these warning signs, which btw, are readily apparent without special tools or equipment but just visual observations, then you will fail to warn your client. This breach of duty to warn will eat you up in court as there is nowhere to hide, including some paltry industy Standards of Practice. Any good attorney will blast right past them by simple points:
You see this stuff for a living
You see the consequences of improper installation and maintenance daily
You fail to warm this is probably a problem, too.
If I am inspecting a chimney and spot something that is an immediate hazard but fail to warm my client, I could be liable. While I'm inspecting the chimney, what if I see signs of a backdraft at the draft hood in my pics but failed to energize the vent damper to see if it opens or is stuck? I reline the chimney and riush to the bank. Does it work? Hey, I was there for the chimney--not what's connected, right? Wrong! I am a trained observer. I point out the need for a qualified HVAC technician to do a full followup service including combustion analysis. With a new liner, the performance of the appliance may change so the equipment may need to be tweaked.
What drove Nick O. to inspect the base of that chimney? Was it simply an observation from above? He said it appeared unremarkable from above. Was it something else? How about his experience with those row homes in Clifton, the equipment usually installed there and the level of maintenace by those homeowners? In medicine, we called this having a high i"ndex of suspicion". Basically, you smell a rat. Nick wasn't satisfied with what he saw up top so using just his hands or ordinary tools such as a screwdriver or nut driver, he opened the cleanout, which btw, is provided by code for this very purpose, and found remains of what used to be an intact flue. He did his duty by warning the client of probable damage and the knowledge this chimney probably cannot perform its intended function anymore. He's done.
Guys, click on the banner for Dale Feb's FIRE Service courses to learn more. Just how liable is a home inspector, what are the boundaries and what can you do to minimize your risk and not put your clients in peril. You can raise your profits, too.
Good catch Nick!
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disgusted with some people on this forum. Out of here!
If it's "just a cap", and the pipe is in good condition, and it appears to be solidly attached to the chimney, yes - I'll remove it. However... I have encountered situations where this appeared to be the case, and the pipe - corroded within the chimney - broke off at the junction with the wall. Sure, it "failed under test" - or at least "observation". And of course a HI does the the occupants of the house a favor by discovering such hazardous conditions.
The seller, however, may feel differently.
I take this stuff seriously.
I have a form I've made up for such occasions, with "NOTICE OF HAZARDOUS CONDITION" in 24pt bold red lettering at the top, for "Seller or Seller's Agent", describing the defect and recommending that occupants be immediately notified of such conditions.
And yes, both those conditions ought to call for further evaluation, and especially in the case of chimneys and flues I''m much more ready than many in my area to call for a level II - and I've taken a lot of flack over that, most recently in a thread on the old IN.
But in the end, I'm not a HVAC tech or a F.I.R.E certified sweep - and what Dale's class taught me, mostly, is that there is *a lot* I don't know.
And if Bob Harper or Dale Feb puts together a good video version of something like the week-long F.I.R.E class, I'll be first in line to buy it.
