InspectionNews - Home Inspection


Share |

Welcome to InspectionNews.

Registration is FREE!

Why join InspectionNews? Read the Testimonials

You are currently viewing InspectionNews as a guest which gives you limited access to view some discussions but you will not see any of the pictures or technical bulletins that have been uploaded.

There are over 11,850 inspectors who have already joined InspectionNews, contributing over 100,700 posts. By joining InspectionNews you will be able to see the pictures, start new threads, reply to posts, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features.

If you are an inspector or thinking about becoming one, InspectionNews is the place for you.

Registration is FREE because the sponsors pay your way.
Please visit all the sponsors often and let them know that you found them on InspectionNews!

How much should an inspection cost? Click the banner below to find out.
The Cost Of Business

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Registration is easy, so please Join InspectionNews Today!

Cost Of Business
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2010, 03:45 PM
JORY LANNES JORY LANNES is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 99
Test for 90% furnace
I inspected two Goodman 90% furnaces last week each had CO readings of 90 to 150 ppm from the outside exhaust. Each exhaust had substantial amounts of condensate dripping to the ground.

I call Goodman and got no answer.

Are there any general guidelines as to CO exhaust and condensate output for 90% furnaces?
__________________
Jory Lannes
Lannes Group Inspections Inc. Chicago, Il.
847 733 7705 jory@lannesgroup.com
Reply With Quote
Are inspection referrals from past clients important to you? If so, click here to get even more referrals!
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2010, 07:36 AM
Bob Spermo Bob Spermo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Helotes, Tx
Posts: 170
Re: Test for 90% furnace
Jory,

I am not an HVAC guy, however, depending on how long the furnace had been on (since it was a condensing furnace) over 100 ppm could be an issue. When condensing furnaces first start up the CO level is pretty high. If you really want to learn HVAC combustion and carbon monoxide take the Combustion/CO course given by National Comfort Institute.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2010, 08:17 AM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia PA
Posts: 2,406
Re: Test for 90% furnace
Quote:
Originally Posted by JORY LANNES View Post
...Each exhaust had substantial amounts of condensate dripping to the ground. ..
The exhaust pipes are supposed to tilt back to the units so the condensate does not drip outside, as far as I know.
__________________
"The road to truth is long, and lined the entire way with annoying bastards."
- Alexander Jablokov (American novelist, b.1956) / www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2010, 08:20 AM
Scott Patterson's Avatar
Scott Patterson Scott Patterson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Spring Hill (Nashville), TN
Posts: 3,579
Re: Test for 90% furnace
OK, as I do not take CO readings I really have no idea what the proper CO should be at the flue exhaust on a gas furnace.

What should the CO levels be on a 90%+ CAT IV furnace?
What should the CO levels be on a 80%+ furnace?

I really have no idea what they should be.
__________________
Scott Patterson
Spring Hill, TN
http://www.traceinspections.com
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2010, 08:42 AM
David Bell David Bell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: CT shoreline
Posts: 510
Re: Test for 90% furnace
As for the CO levels, it is impossible to give an accurate answer with the info given. Need to know the size of the units (BTU), single stage, two stage? As to the condensate, while the pipes should be pitched back to the unit a certain amount of condensate will be pushed thru the vent. The amount is dependant on a number of factors, humidity, return air temp, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2010, 12:07 PM
ray jackson ray jackson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: bakersfield
Posts: 20
Re: Test for 90% furnace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Spermo View Post
Jory,

If you really want to learn HVAC combustion and carbon monoxide take the Combustion/CO course given by National Comfort Institute.
Only take this course if you are willing to re-think everything you thought you knew about combustion. Having taken the class, anything over 100ppm is not good. Now having said that, good luck finding an hvac contractor that can tune the furnaces to operate properly (if they haven't taken this course, they won't be able to).
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2010, 05:37 AM
Jerry Shipman Jerry Shipman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 30
Re: Test for 90% furnace
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray jackson View Post
Only take this course if you are willing to re-think everything you thought you knew about combustion. Having taken the class, anything over 100ppm is not good. Now having said that, good luck finding an hvac contractor that can tune the furnaces to operate properly (if they haven't taken this course, they won't be able to).
This course is great for general information and knowledge but, just like any training course, I would caution against taking all the information presented as gospel. Some of the techniques and adjustments presented by NCI are against manufacturer recommendations.

The ANSI Z21.47 standard for gas-fired central furnaces allows up to 400 ppm of CO in the vent. Realistically, this is at way far edge of the design
standard and no manufacturer would ever design to that as a minimum level.

Because of the 400 ppm limit, and the fact the so many factors affect CO, there really never has been a published "acceptable" or "normal" level of CO in the vent. One thing causes high CO; incomplete combustion. But, many factors can contribute to that incomplete combustion.
The sensor(s) in a combustion analyzer are only good for X number of months. After that, the sensor(s) may not read properly. Also, the batteries should be fresh. A bad sensor or weak batteries can affect your results. Meters should be calibrated outdoors

When testing for CO, the following conditions must be first met, or your readings will be high. Most will need to be checked by a qualified HVAC tech, as they are out of the capabilities and responsibilities of even a good inspector)

The burners must be clean and lint free.
The unit must be fired within 2% of the rating plate. (high fire on 2 stage furnaces)
The unit must be at the mid-point of the temperature rise or
slightly above
The unit must be at steady state conditions, which means it has to have run for at least 15 minutes.
For 90% furnaces, the drain trap must be clean and condensate must run free. Water trapped in the secondary HX reduces the excess air levels and results in poor combustion performance.
You need to make sure you have sufficient combustion air to the room.

And for any CO test, you need a background reading of CO in the room or area from which the combustion air is being drawn. You may have high CO in the combustion air. This is especially true if combustion air is being pulled from a garage; very likely when dealing with an 80% non-condensing furnace.

For 80% furnaces, the sampling probe should be put in the vent pipe 12 inches above the draft hood or inducer outlet.
90% furnaces can be checked at the termination outlet outdoors, but more accurate results will occur if you drill a hole in the exhaust pipe 12 inches away from the inducer outlet.
You should seal the hole around the probe in the vent pipe to prevent room air from diluting the sample.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2010, 09:49 AM
Bob Elliott's Avatar
Bob Elliott Bob Elliott is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 316
Re: Test for 90% furnace
CO tests on site at the unit are not a good idea.
Test the CO away from the unit.

I read guys taking measurements from inside the hood and wonder why they are getting high readings ,for crying out loud.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2010, 03:27 PM
DavidR's Avatar
DavidR DavidR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfort, KY
Posts: 326
Re: Test for 90% furnace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
CO tests on site at the unit are not a good idea.
Test the CO away from the unit.

I read guys taking measurements from inside the hood and wonder why they are getting high readings ,for crying out loud.
Where exactly should the readings be taken Bob?
__________________
Measured Performance more than just a buzzword
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2010, 03:31 PM
DavidR's Avatar
DavidR DavidR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfort, KY
Posts: 326
Re: Test for 90% furnace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shipman View Post
This course is great for general information and knowledge but, just like any training course, I would caution against taking all the information presented as gospel. Some of the techniques and adjustments presented by NCI are against manufacturer recommendations.

There are a lot of times that the manufacturers recommendations need to be analyzed a lot further than they are as they are taken as gospel by most.
__________________
Measured Performance more than just a buzzword
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2010, 05:12 PM
Ken Rowe's Avatar
Ken Rowe Ken Rowe is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: St Paul, MN
Posts: 619
Re: Test for 90% furnace
We go by these criteria when checking carbon monoxide.
    • Test oil fired furnaces in the vent connector before the barometric damper.
    • Test low efficiency propane and natural gas furnaces (<80%) at the outlet of each heat exchanger section before the draft diverter or collector box, and before any dilution air. Treat drum type heat exchangers as one cell.
    • Test mid (80%) and high (90%) efficiency propane and natural gas furnaces in the vent connector after the draft inducer. Drill a hole in the vent pipe 12" to 18" above the outlet thimble. This hole must be sealed after testing is complete.
    • CO readings should peak, drop, then stabilize within 5 minutes. If CO readings continue to climb for more than five minutes the condition must be considered unsafe and corrected - even if CO levels are still below 100 ppm.
    • If highest single CO readings are:
      • 0 - 50 ppm conditions are acceptable.
      • 51 -99 ppm servicing is recommended
      • 100 + ppm the condition is considered unsafe and immediate review by an HVAC technician is necessary.
__________________
http://minnesotahomeinspectors.com/employment.html
BPG Inspection Services
ASHI #242887
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2010, 09:38 AM
Philip Philip is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 226
Re: Test for 90% furnace
Drill a hole in the vent pipe? Are you serious? Minn allows this? This profession of Home Inspections is becoming scary.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2010, 01:31 PM
Ken Rowe's Avatar
Ken Rowe Ken Rowe is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: St Paul, MN
Posts: 619
Re: Test for 90% furnace
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip View Post
Drill a hole in the vent pipe? Are you serious? Minn allows this? This profession of Home Inspections is becoming scary.
We do it regularly. Much of the time we don't need to though since there's generally already a hole from the testing / tuning done after the initial installation. Just have to remove the plug for our test and replug it when we're done.
__________________
http://minnesotahomeinspectors.com/employment.html
BPG Inspection Services
ASHI #242887
Reply With Quote
Home inspection - The Cost Of Business.
Cost Of Business
Reply

Share |

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sure test 61-165 David Banks Electrical Systems: Home Inspection and Commercial Inspection 5 05-19-2008 08:39 PM
test Brian Hannigan H E L P ! 1 04-04-2007 08:31 AM

Alabama | Alaska | Arizona | Atlanta | Aurora | Austin | Baltimore | Boston | California | Cambridge | Cape Coral | Chandler | Charlotte | Chicago | Cincinnati | Clarksville | Cleveland | Colorado | Columbus | Connecticut | Dallas | Delaware | Denver | Detroit | Durham | El Paso | Eugene | Florida | Fort Worth | Fresno | Georgia | Gilbert | Hawaii | Henderson | Houston | Huntsville | Idaho | Illinois | Indiana | Indianapolis | Irvine | Jacksonville | Joliet | Kansas City | Knoxville | Lancaster | Las Vegas | Los Angeles | Louisiana | Louisville | Maine | Maryland | Massachusetts | Memphis | Mesa | Miami | Michigan | Milwaukee | Minneapolis | Minnesota | Miramar | Mississippi | Missouri | Montana | Nashville | Nebraska | Nevada | New Hampshire | New Jersey | New Mexico | New York | North Carolina | North Dakota | Oakland | Ohio | Oklahoma | Omaha | Ontario | Orange | Oregon | Orlando | Pennsylvania | Philadelphia | Phoenix | Pittsburgh | Plano | Portland | Port StLucie | Raleigh | Rhode Island | Roseville | Sacramento | Salem | San Antonio | San Diego | San Francisco | San Jose | Scottsdale | Seattle | Sioux falls | South Carolina | South Dakota | St Louis | Tampa | Tennessee | Texas | Thornton | Toledo | Tucson | Tulsa | Utah | Vancouver | Vermont | Virginia | West Virginia | Wichita | Wisconsin | Wyoming | Cost To Repair

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:17 PM.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC8
vB.Sponsors
All Rights Reserved. Hann Tech Marketing Link / InspectionNews.com / InspectionNews.net - No part of InspectionNews.net may be reproduced in any way, or by any means, without the prior written permission of InspectionNews.net. Use of any index or listing Software for the purpose of constructing a mailing list, creating promotional materials or producing a printed or electronic catalog of any kind is expressly forbidden without the prior written permission of InspectionNews.net - All text, graphics and design on InspectionNews.net is copyright by Hann Tech Marketing Links.
Ad Management by RedTyger