Many of you on this board (for obvious reasons) suggested I have my new home inspected during the builder's warranty period. The home I purchased was built in 2005 and was the builders model for this commmunity in Mooresville, NC . With the heat and humidity of the south, effective air conditioning systems are a very important part of these homes.

Unfortunately, it appears the home inspector I hired did not include HVAC as part of his inspection other than to indicate the systems exist.

One day after my warranty period expired, it became apparent that the AC system on our first floor was running constantly to maintain a thermostat setting of 73F. Outside temp was 90F. I decided to use a thermal anemometer I had brought with me this visit (our main home is in NJ) to measure some of the air flows through the registers and found the temp coming out of the registers (I sampled 4 different registers) was 67F.



Temperature should be in the 55-57F range ..... this is a 2yr old Lennox R22 system with ductwork in a relatively cool crawl space.

My HVAC contractor had a service tech in the area who stopped by later that day and put approx 2.2 lbs of R22 in the unit. The temperature dropped to 61F which I feel is still a bit warm.



The contractor babbled something about sensible and latent heat, said the system didn't need any more refrigerant and then told me I should consider taking out a home improvement loan and purchasing a new R410 system as the R22 he was putting in would no longer be available.




Amazing... less that 24hrs after my warranty expires and he's recommending an HVAC upgrade....is business really that slow?

Should my home inspector have caught this? As a dumb homeowner, I'd expect a professional home inspector might have a $20 pocket thermometer in his arsenal of tools. I'd also recommend that you pro's let your customers know if they have an R22 system that might need conversion or upgrading at some time in the near future.

SD

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Steve,

You were there when the day HI was on site (Did the System appear to be functioning as intended ? )

What did his Inspection agreement say?

Were you stuck up his Tail Pipe as he went around the home ?

Don't you put AC systems into your projects?

I replaced my 28 year old Rudd System last year and My choice was R-22 ( figured it was a more tested platform)

If it worries you A11 REFRIGERANT CATEGORIES FOR R11,R12, R22, R502, R134a, R113, R123, R409A, R408A, R500, R404A .

Temperature should be taken at the supply plenum.

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It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

I was on site....he spent the first 45 minutes outside with binoculars and a camera looking at the roof. He came at 8:30am and outside temp was cool. The room was at the thermostat temp and no problem was suspected here.


There was no agreement other than verbal over the phone. I hired him as he came highly recommended by a neighbor.


No....my wife wouldn't let me.

I don't do the installs but I do the load assessment when there is additional equipment or lighting that would affect room temps.

I'll hit some of the key points of your post:
- if you have lost 2 lbs of freon over two years you may have a slow leak, or the system was not properly charged to begin with
- R22 will still be available for servicing existing equipment, new equipment now being sold is no longer built for R22. There is no need to upgrade on that basis.
- if your system is having trouble maintaining 73 it is unlikely it is a freon problem if the system is properly charged. Did the serv tech actually know what he was doing or just dumped some freon in?
- The system could be undersized but usually it's a return air problem. It doesn't matter how much cold air you pump in, if you aren't pulling the hot air out, it will never bring down the temp.
- The orifices between the coil and condenser could be mismatched.
There are HI's who don't take temp readings. Whether or not a system is functioning at peak/optimal performance is a completely different assessment based on intricate variables that are generally considered beyond the scope of a normal HI. I personally take temp readings and report excessive variances.
- It's two years later and you want to blame the HI? Not very realistic. Maybe he wasn't as exhaustive in his reporting as you now would like and that is understandable. However, what time of year did he inspect? What was the weather and temp?

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Accurate Inspections & Consulting, Inc.
773/844-4AIC
Markus Keller

Not having seen his report, he may have done more than that, but not to what you expected. We have no way of knowing which it was.

You are putting the entire outcome of keeping the home cool onto the a/c system when, in fact, many factors affect that outcome. Those factors (all of them) should have been included in the builder's (through their HVAC contractor) energy calculations.

Large expanses of glazing, especially southern exposure, insulation in the walls, insulation in the ceiling, color of the roof, color of the walls, there are many things which contribute to the adequacy of the a/c system for the specific house.

Years ago, at a continuing education class, an HVAC manufacturer's representative put on a presentation, I think it was Carrier, about the many factors which go into the design and sizing of the a/c system for any given house, and that even otherwise identical houses oriented differently should be treated differently.

The one main thing I remember is that the 'most efficient energy design size' was based on the (I think it was something like this) 97% degree day design temperature, and that at that design temperature the a/c system would run 24 hours a day to maintain the house interior at 15-20 degrees lower than the outdoor temperature (with 18 degrees being optimal - something like that).

On days which exceeded that design temperature, the a/c would operate 24 hours a day and not keep the house that cool. It was not designed or intended to.

That gets w-a-y beyond what a home inspector does.

That is an invalid statement. The a/c system is typically designed to have a 18-20 degree temperature differential across the air hander unit itself, measure the air coming in at the return, and the air going out at the supply, about a foot or so above the top of the AHU (because units with 'A' coils can have a dead spot right above the top of the 'A' coil).

Once the air leaves the AHU and enters into the supply duct system, the temperature starts dropping. Just like opening a refrigerator door, it is coldest right at the front of the refrigerator, not as cold the further away you get. Ductwork is insulated to reasonably maintain the temperature as 'best economically feasible', sure, you could do a better job with better insulated ductwork, but the builder's HVAC contractor only installs what is minimally required.

"Yours" or "the builder's"?

That would indicate either a leak (likely a Schrader valve) or that the system had not been fully charged at startup.

As compared to what?

What was the return temperature at the AHU, and what was the supply temperature at the AHU?

As I understand it, R22 will be available, however, it will have to be captured and recycled. The new refrigerant is not supposed to have the negative environmental impact on the ozone layer as Freon does - at least that is what today's science has come up with.

You are expecting way too much of your home inspector.

Sounds to me like you are expecting him to act as the designer, i.e., an architect, HVAC engineer, etc., all rolled into one.

Not "in the near future".

More like "eventually", but, then, "eventually" you will need to replace the system, and, when you do, you will not be able to get an R22 system.

That is the designed intent way of phasing R22 systems out - don't blame your home inspector, that's done by Congress and The Pres.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

As a car guy who does a bit of his own maintenance, a very simplistic way check the AC system's effectiveness is to put a thermometer in the dash vent.

That's the same thing I did with my home system and the 67F measurement indicated there might be a problem. The HVAC contractor (the builders) came out and found the 3 1/2 ton unit for our first floor was way down on refrigerant.

Also, I did took measurements at my neighbors house....same model home, same sun exposures, same time of day (readings were 5 minutes apart) and his temp out of the registers was 10 degrees cooler.

Car a/c systems will put out much ... *much* colder hair, they have to, as soon as the air leaves the vents, it meets all that heat coming in through the windshield.

Check the temperatures at the AHU. While it really tells you 'nothing' about the system, it will tell you that 'it is cooling'.

I say it really tells you 'nothing' because you could have a clogged coil or collapsed ductwork, slowing the air speed, which has more time to transfer heat from the coil, giving a false high reading, but ... your home is relatively new, seems like you are meticulous and would keep it all maintained, so, you could check that 'for comparison use only' purposes.

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

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Maybe you could work out a trade with the neighbors House.

Chill Steve,

You did buy this property to get away & relax ?

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It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie!
Billy J. Stephens HI Service
Memphis TN.

Great! That shows that there is nothing wrong with your system and its sizing.

Must be something else.

Have an energy surveyor come in and do a blower door test. They should be able to tell if there is any leakage in, around, the duct.

Check the fan speed setting on your AHU and your neighbors, yours might be set to high (slower moving air allows for more heat transfer which equals lower temperatures).

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Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )

I know....its not unusual to measure temps in the 40-45F range out of the vents with R12 or R134A.


For ceiling registers with air handlers in the attic I absolutely agree. Heat gain through R4 ductwork in an attic can be significant....hopefully R8 will become code in residential applications one of these days.


The first register I measured was right off the main trunk from the air handler....maybe 12' away. Air flow was 600-700 ft per minute and did not indicate duct restrictions. The ductwork had been replaced completely 2 months ago (at the builders expense) when I showed them the design was so poor and there were very few dampers to balance the system....air flow out of the register closest to the air handler was 1400 ft per minute and at the other end of the house, I was getting readings of 350-400 ft per minute. There was a 14F temperature differential between the thermostat setting in our living room and the room temperature in our master bathroom (readings taken with outside temp of 30F).

Here's the old stuff we took out....

Quote:

The Clean Air Act does not allow any refrigerant to be vented into the atmosphere during installation, service, or retirement of equipment. Therefore, R-22 must be recovered and recycled (for reuse in the same system), reclaimed (reprocessed to the same purity levels as new R-22), or destroyed. After 2020, the servicing of R-22-based systems will rely on recycled refrigerants. It is expected that reclamation and recycling will ensure that existing supplies of R-22 will last longer and be available to service a greater number of systems. As noted above, chemical manufacturers will be able to produce R-22 for use in new A/C equipment until 2010, and they can continue production of R-22 until 2020 for use in servicing that equipment. Given this schedule, the transition away from R-22 to the use of ozone-friendly refrigerants should be smooth. For the next 20 years or more, R-22 should continue to be available for all systems that require R-22 for servicing.

Information on my web site that I stole from somewhere.

Get a new HVAC tech. If he used this scare tactic and did not find the leak, he is a hack (unless you left out some of what he said.)

Systems do not "use" refrigerant, a system that is down 2 lbs. has a pretty substantial leak that should be fixed. It is doubtful that you would have not noticed an issue with performance before now if it has been down 2lbs.
Also, A/C systems can be overcharged and will not work properly, which may be where you are now.

There is truth to latent heat, sensible heat story. The moisture in the air is the latent heat part and does require energy to remove, but it does not show up on your thermometer. Hot moist air takes more energy to cool and dehumidify than hot dry air. Since your unit only provides a certain amount of BTU (energy) to cool both the latent and sensible heat load, there will be less sensible cooling available if there is a high latent load.

While I take temperature readings and inspect dozens of other items on HVAC systems, I do not record temperature readings, level of cleanliness of the coils, air flow, etc. in the report. I look for problems and report the issues that I find, if I find no problems, then there is nothing to report.

Also, though you did a pretty good job on your comparison, there are several issues that you left out of the equation that would be needed to compare "apples to apples."
My advice, get a different HVAC guy that is not going to try and sell you a new unit because that unit won't have any new R-22 available in 12 years. The average life of a central A/C unit is around 15 years, so this one will need to be replace before there is an issue with a lack of R-22.

By the way, did you know R-12 has not been produced for many years, but there are millions of R-12 units still in use today and you can get alternative refrigerants and recycled R-12 to keep them going?

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Jim Luttrall
Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
Allen, Texas 75002

North Carolina home inspectors are licensed by the state and have been for over 10 years. The licensing board requires a written contract between home inspectors and their clients. A verbal contract sounds like you may not have been using a licensed home inspector. Furthermore, a written report is required to be delivered within 72 hours.

The licensing board posts the names of all currently licensed home inspectors on their website. Since your inspection was 2 years ago, the inspector in question may not be currently listed because he let his license lapse or was never licensed. Here is the link to the lists of home inspectors.
Welcome to NC Office of State Fire Marshal

You can contact the licensing board to find out if the person who inspected your home was licensed at the time.

The NC state SOPs do not require a "temperature drop test" to determine if the A/C is working. They only require the controls be operated to determine if the unit turns on or off when the controls are operated. Customer access panels are supposed to be opened and interiors inspected in a visual manner.

NC Home inspectors are not allowed to recommend upgrades from current status of the building to newer, better, stuff in the summary section but can in the body of the report.

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Bruce Ramsey
Advocate Inspections
www.NCAdvocate.com

I don't see my inspector on the NC list....his NCHI License number is 1728 and he's supposedly been around for awhile. His report was delivered the day of the inspection.

The inspection was 3 weeks ago. Home was purchased 1 year ago. This was an inspection to catch any issues before the builder's warranty expired.

Unfortunately since we met for the first time the day of the inspection and only had verbal communication, I didn't know in advance what was in or out of scope. His report (after the inspection) clearly says he does not examine the HVAC in any kind of detail.

His report indicates that the air filters are in "good condition" which is strange since the first floor no longer has return filters (these went away when the PureAir system was installed). SD

Well I might as well pipe in.

You should have a 15 to upwards (practically never the upper end) of 22 degrees. That was already mentioned.

As Jim said, we point out concerns with an HVAC system. We check the system to the standards we operate under and most go a little deeper. Also as Jim said we do not comment on every item we check unless it has a concern. It is not necessary. Again you are hiring us to find concerns.

Contract signed or no contract signed is not really the concern (with the exception of laws and SOP's

This looks like a crawl space home. You have a serious amount of air infiltration in a pier and beam from the floor system. This will make a difference on how long or how often the system runs. Windy tropical air pushing against your home has a draw in it self on the running of the system to keep up. There are a ton of factors on how efficient the HVAC system is and not much of that has to do with a normally operating system. Windows, wall insulation and tightness, air infiltration, attic insulation and ventilation etc.

Where I live in north central Texas, if it is a tropical windy day, the air runs on forever when I have the temp set at 75.

As far as duct work the connections of the duct work all have to be sealed properly. Minimum of an R6 and I think the flex goes up to an R9 is what you should have.

Gees, I could go on for the rest of the day. To end it, The entire home package as well as the HVAC will determine the efficiency. An envelope of structural insulated panels along with great windows and doors will bring your efficiency to the max and you will have to bring in outside air because the system would be so tight. Your cost would be under a hundred a month in a good size home. A leaky home will cost you hundreds a month and the system runs all day.

OK, I'm done. Winding down from a morning inspection.

Speaking of which, a very slow start to this week

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Ted Menelly
"Castle"
Home Inspection Services

It is a crawl space home (not something I'm used to since, being from the north, we've always had basements). There are vents but its not wide open.




The home is one of the builder's cheaper units and its obvious to me that they skimped where the could to save cost. Windows are not great and wall construction is 2x4's. You can even see light past the door gaskets.