Thread: Chinese Drywall: Literally Up Against the Wall - Lawyers and Settlements

InspectionNews has just found the following information that might be of interest to you:


Lawyers and Settlements
Chinese Drywall: Literally Up Against the Wall
Lawyers and Settlements
"I had a home inspection done that indeed confirmed Chinese drywall problems and my tenant moved out, afraid of the effects it would have on their health," ...




More...

Similar Threads:

• Single Wall Window Installation
• Who needs 6" of clearance for single wall
• Crack in the wall
• Staining on exterior wall near A/C
• CSST Class Action Settlements???

"WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. – James and Maria Ivory's dreams of a relaxing retirement on Florida's Gulf Coast were put on hold when they discovered their new home had been built with Chinese drywall that emits sulfuric fumes and corrodes pipes. It got worse when they asked their insurer for help — and not only was their claim denied, but they've been told their entire policy won't be renewed..."

Insurers dropping Chinese drywall policies - Yahoo! News

John Kuczwanski, a spokesman for the Ivorys' insurer, Citizens Property Insurance Corp., said their claim was denied because the drywall is considered a builder defect, which is not covered under the policy. It also considers the drywall a pre-existing condition that could lead to future damage, which is why the company won't renew the policy unless the problem is fixed.

"If someone were to have bought a new car and there was a defective part, would that person go to their auto insurance to get that fixed or would they go back to the manufacturer?" Kuczwanski said. "We provide insurance, not warranty service."

That's why I've been saying it should be treated as defective product liability - notify your builder to notify THEIR insurance company, THEY now have to deal with it because it is a "defective product".

Does not mean the builder is a "bad guy", nor does it mean the dry wall installer or their supplier is a "bad guy" either, it just simply means there was a defective product install which needs to be replaced.

The builders insurance then goes to the installer's insurance and the suppliers insurance to subjugate the claim to them and get their money back.

It is then up to the installer to get their money back from the manufacturer ... that may well be the most difficult part.

Not once have I received a call about chinese drywall.......until today.

Less than a half hour ago I got a call about a new home buyer with concerns about chinese drywall. The home was just built...Whichita Falls, TX. The second and 4 hours ago I received a call from a man with a 5 year old home inquiring about chinese drywall. He says he has been getting sick off and on for a few years. Never and electric issue. Never an HVAC issue. Never a rotten egg smell or any other signs for that matter.

And then Brian brings a thread up on Chinese Drywall.

I guess what they say is true about stuff coming in 3s.

Ted,

I could be wrong but my understanding is the Chinese drywall problem began around 2004 when 4 hurricanes struck Florida and worsened in the wake of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005. The huge demand for drywall after the hurricanes exceeded the domestic supply and China stepped up to fill the void (with their typically inferior product). Chinese drywall was used primarily in those areas affected by the hurricanes (Gulf Coast states) but I have heard reports of it being found in other areas (albeit not in large quantities).

In my inspection agreement I have added "Chinese drywall" to the list of things that I do not inspect for.

How would a home inspector identify Chinese drywall in a typical home inspection? I would imagine that Chinese drywall looks like any other drywall once it is painted. Unless you could read the writing on the back of the drywall or you perform some sort of destructive testing I don't know how a home inspector could reasonably be expected to identify Chinese drywall.

I was thinking the same thing. And with how insurance companies and everyone else is trying to deny responsibility, the home inspector is an easy target. What is the best way to identify.

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

Ted,

I could be wrong but my understanding is the Chinese drywall problem began around 2004 when 4 hurricanes struck Florida and worsened in the wake of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005. The huge demand for drywall after the hurricanes exceeded the domestic supply and China stepped up to fill the void (with their typically inferior product). Chinese drywall was used primarily in those areas affected by the hurricanes (Gulf Coast states) but I have heard reports of it being found in other areas (albeit not in large quantities).

In my inspection agreement I have added "Chinese drywall" to the list of things that I do not inspect for.

How would a home inspector identify Chinese drywall in a typical home inspection? I would imagine that Chinese drywall looks like any other drywall once it is painted. Unless you could read the writing on the back of the drywall or you perform some sort of destructive testing I don't know how a home inspector could reasonably be expected to identify Chinese drywall.

That was my point with the post. One home just completed and another 5 year old home that there has never been your typical chinese drywall problem. Also the fact of where one home was (near me) and the other home was (Wichita Falls, TX) and I have never had a call in the past.

Originally Posted by mathew stouffer

What is the best way to identify.

Rather than try to identify Chinese drywall I think the best approach for a home inspector is to exclude it. The risk is too great if you fail to identify Chinese drywall and your client wants it all replaced.

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

I could be wrong but my understanding is the Chinese drywall problem began around 2004 when 4 hurricanes struck Florida and worsened in the wake of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005.

My understanding is that homes as far back as 2000 may have Chinese drywall in them. It has been imported for some time, only in lesser quantities than in 2004 and after the hurricanes.

How would a home inspector identify Chinese drywall in a typical home inspection? I would imagine that Chinese drywall looks like any other drywall once it is painted. Unless you could read the writing on the back of the drywall or you perform some sort of destructive testing I don't know how a home inspector could reasonably be expected to identify Chinese drywall.

Limited checking, but I would not use the word "testing" in there as that would be reserved for actually taking a sample cut out and sending it to a lab to break down into its basic chemical compounds.

Because of the limitations for checking for it, I recommend disclaiming checking for it, leaving it open that if you stumble across evidence of it you will, of course, include it in the report.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The builders insurance then goes to the installer's insurance and the suppliers insurance to subjugate the claim to them and get their money back.

Uh, that's subrogate, Jerry.



-

Originally Posted by Erby Crofutt

Uh, that's subrogate, Jerry.

Oops ... my bad.

I knew it did not look right, but I was having a brain fart and couldn't remember what I was trying to think of. Sometimes those things happen.

I think it is all KNAPP brand rock

Speaking of Insurance companies and Chinese Drywall, Ace Westchester and Westchester Surplus Lines started adding a Chinese Drywall exclusion to their Home Inspector E&O Policies.

You may have been getting calls because it was on one of the network evening news broadcast a couple of days ago.
I have not seen any or heard of any around here. I think most of the local stuff was imported from Mexico during the "shortage".

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

Ted,

I could be wrong but my understanding is the Chinese drywall problem began around 2004 when 4 hurricanes struck Florida and worsened in the wake of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005. The huge demand for drywall after the hurricanes exceeded the domestic supply and China stepped up to fill the void (with their typically inferior product). Chinese drywall was used primarily in those areas affected by the hurricanes (Gulf Coast states) but I have heard reports of it being found in other areas (albeit not in large quantities).

In my inspection agreement I have added "Chinese drywall" to the list of things that I do not inspect for.

How would a home inspector identify Chinese drywall in a typical home inspection? I would imagine that Chinese drywall looks like any other drywall once it is painted. Unless you could read the writing on the back of the drywall or you perform some sort of destructive testing I don't know how a home inspector could reasonably be expected to identify Chinese drywall.

Hi Bruce,

I have limited experience with the stuff, but when I found it, it was obvious, and failure to notice it would, IMO, be a pretty clear cut case of failure to perform due dilligence. There may very well be cases that are not so obvious, but if an HI didnt notice blackened copper, strong odors and then move a little ceiling insulation around to get a manufacturers mark....

This may be an extreme, atypical case, but I think it is quite reasonable for an HI to be aware of the issue and to look for and note the clues.

Tim


















































Tim

Originally Posted by Richard Pultar

I think it is all KNAPP brand rock

Hi Richard,

That would be Knauf, and there are reports of as many as 26 different brand names associated with the problem, and 11 others with no markings save for some version of 'Made In China". Knauf only accounts for 20% of the drywall imported into the US from China. For such a potentially huge and widespread problem, it looks like some inspectors (not aimed at you Richard) have buried their heads in the sand when it comes to Chinese drywall. I think this issue deserves the same research and attention that good inspectors give to other manufacturing defects/issues.

Tim

Originally Posted by Mark Howe

Hi Bruce,

I have limited experience with the stuff, but when I found it, it was obvious, and failure to notice it would, IMO, be a pretty clear cut case of failure to perform due dilligence. There may very well be cases that are not so obvious, but if an HI didnt notice blackened copper, strong odors and then move a little ceiling insulation around to get a manufacturers mark....

This may be an extreme, atypical case, but I think it is quite reasonable for an HI to be aware of the issue and to look for and note the clues.

Tim
Tim

So

You say you are not doing due dilligence if you are not shuffling insulation around in an attic???

You say that if you see blackened copper you are suppose to say to your client.....I think you may have Chinese drywall here?????

If I see blackened copper I am going to advise my client to jire an electrician to verify the cause.

I am not going to brush insulation around in an attic to try an find a manufacturers stamp. If the home has 5/8 on the ceiling or 1/2 inch ceiling rock on the framing it is not going to be Chinese drywall anyway.

Now.. if I do smell rotten eggs and see blackened copper then I am going to suggest that further investigation take place for the possibility of Chinese drywall...............maybe not, most likely not. More than likely I am going to turn it to a contractor to discover the cause of the rotten egg smell and blackened copper. To shout out Chinese drywall because you think there may be chinese drywall is almost certain death. You very well could be seriously wrong and someone may be looking to you for payment of the further eval and test results. Samples of drywall have to be taken from various areas around the home to be sure of the possible percentage of chinese drywall. To do a blanket staement that all the drywall in ther home is chinese drywall with out extensive testing is nuts and I am not getting that involved in any home for any reason. If I still wanted to be a contractor involved in construction and wanted to spend a lot of time in a home with possible extensive involvement in that home for you being the finder and tester of the home involving a chinese drywall case then I would still have multiple employees and a full blown construction company. I am and want to be an in and out kind of guy in any home. That is why I turned into a full time home inspector 10 to 12 years ago instead of doing it part time for the 20 years before that.

If you find copper wire, copper pipes (water or refrigerant lines), A/C coils that are turning dark or black then the home has a very good chance I would say in the 97% range that it has problematic drywall in it.

In some homes even household fixtures like door/pull knobs, sink fixtures, and door hinges have started to corrode.

To odor in the home might not be noticeable if it has not been closed up and after a few minutes in the home you actually might become accustomed to the smell.

It is not rocket science to figure out if a home has it in it if you look for the other signs and conditions.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

If you find copper wire, copper pipes (water or refrigerant lines), A/C coils that are turning dark or black then the home has a very good chance I would say in the 97% range that it has problematic drywall in it.

In some homes even household fixtures like door/pull knobs, sink fixtures, and door hinges have started to corrode.

To odor in the home might not be noticeable if it has not been closed up and after a few minutes in the home you actually might become accustomed to the smell.

It is not rocket science to figure out if a home has it in it if you look for the other signs and conditions.

But...The question is...Do you want the extended involvement in the home or would you rather (compared to anything else in the home) turn it over to someone else and then they can do extensive evaluation as to if, how much and what they do next. I am thinking you are there primarily for a client in the purchase of a home. If for what ever reason you shout out the possibility of chinese drywall and by even a slim chance you are wrong and there are other underlying concern...Do you want to be someone that tainted that home with chinese drywall testing and then disclosure to the next clients and the next even if there is not chinese drywall.

Just the mention of chinese drywall and some people are going to do what Rick said (and I like it) Run Forest Run.

I for one want absolutely nothing to do with chinese drywall or its testing or the legthly invilvement. I am not set up to tie myself up that much on one inspection. If I had multiple employees and such and had the time, want and need then maybe I would get into it. The one man band home inspectors...It just sounds like to much of a *possible* involved event.

Oh yeah...I moved a small patch of insulation of this attic wall abutting ther second floor family room and found "CHINESE DRYWALL"

That just does not sound like something I would be interested in getting involved with right now.

Oh yeah

Folks...Quit with the "Due Dilligence" statements all the time. Inspecting for chinese drywall should have nothing to do with a standard home inspection. It is anything but standard home inspection stuff.

You find signs turn it over to the next folks or stop right there. Have your folks sign a new agreement for chinese drywall inspection and testing and then go on with business.

You say you are not doing due dilligence if you are not shuffling insulation around in an attic???

You need to read more carefully. If I notice other signs/clues then yes, I want to make an attempt to get the manufacturers markings. Very little effort involved. Very good info for my client to have. And to answer your question, yes, failure to follow up on suspicions of a problem that could have 7 figure implications is a lack of due diligence, IMO. But then, I am an inspector, not a disclaimer.

You say that if you see blackened copper you are suppose to say to your client.....I think you may have Chinese drywall here?????


If I see blackened copper I am going to advise my client to jire an electrician to verify the cause.

Well, that is not what I said, that is what YOU said. Again, reading is fundamental.

I have never advised my clients to JIRE anyone. I think that is illegal in Alabama, even between consenting adults.

You REALLY can’t tell blackened copper that is heat related from discolored copper resulting from an external chemical reaction? Really? After 200 years of construction and inspection experience? Well, I can, and I report what I see. You fail to address the blackened A/C lines and coils, and the blackened copper plumbing and brass fittings-does an electrician need to look at that too, or do you call in an HVAC contractor and plumber to charge the seller 150 bucks each to state the obvious?

I am not going to brush insulation around in an attic to try an find a manufacturers stamp.anyway.

Why not? I brush insulation aside all the time to look for any number of things. No big deal. Part of the job.

If the home has 5/8 on the ceiling or 1/2 inch ceiling rock on the framing it is not going to be Chinese drywall

So, in 200 years of inspection and construction experience, you have never found a wrong installation? Oh, I forgot, you don’t look. In any case, the belief that there is no problematic 5/8” roc that contains contaminants is folklore. Thus, my comment on some HI’s needing to do more research. I still look, because, well, it makes sense to me to KNOW and not guess (or rely on folklore).



Now.. if I do smell rotten eggs and see blackened copper then I am going to suggest that further investigation take place for the possibility of Chinese drywall...............maybe not, most likely not. More than likely I am going to turn it to a contractor to discover the cause of the rotten egg smell and blackened copper. To shout out Chinese drywall because you think there may be chinese drywall is almost certain death. You very well could be seriously wrong and someone may be looking to you for payment of the further eval and test results. Samples of drywall have to be taken from various areas around the home to be sure of the possible percentage of chinese drywall. To do a blanket staement that all the drywall in ther home is chinese drywall with out extensive testing is nuts and I am not getting that involved in any home for any reason. If I still wanted to be a contractor involved in construction and wanted to spend a lot of time in a home with possible extensive involvement in that home for you being the finder and tester of the home involving a chinese drywall case then I would still have multiple employees and a full blown construction company. I am and want to be an in and out kind of guy in any home. That is why I turned into a full time home inspector 10 to 12 years ago instead of doing it part time for the 20 years before that.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t recommend or advocate that anyone 'shout out' anything (you have a bad habit of reading things that were never written, and putting words in other peoples mouths. Can you stick with facts and stop trying to flame me to prove how smart you are? Your effort is failing), or make any sort of a blanket statement whatsoever (how could you even make that up from what I said?). I never elaborated on how I report it. You are jumping to HUGE conclusions. I am saying that it is not difficult to note the OBVIOUS clues (blackened copper and sulphurous smell), investigate a little further (moving a little insulation around is no big deal to me) so that I can have all of the available information (I am trying to find things, not find ways to ignore things). And then, when I am armed with all of the information that I can reasonably gather (and yes, I think moving a little insulation around is reasonable. It’s really not that heavy), I will make my recommendations.

BTW, are you really proud that you are an in-and-out kind of guy? Do you tell your clients that?

Moving insulation so that your client has as much reasonably available information that you can gather is running a construction company? O.K…. My construction experience was a little different than that. It involved things like hammers, nails and saws. But, that’s just me.

I know you don’t know me Ted, but I didn’t come to this business or to the trades yesterday, either. It is still my opinion that due diligence requires me to follow up on my suspicions as far as my experience and education will allow me. Disclaiming CD at the top of your report is as useless as it is disingenuous. It is a well known issue and HI’s should be familiar with the issue and know how to proceed accordingly when it is encountered. Passing on obvious issues to trades people who likely have little or no experience with the issue is a cop out, IMO. We are paid to tell our client of precisely such suspicions and advise them as best we can on how to proceed. For me, that has been a recommendation for lab testing. So far, I am batting 1000%.

KOKO,
Tim

Oh yeah

Folks...Quit with the "Due Dilligence" statements all the time. Inspecting for chinese drywall should have nothing to do with a standard home inspection. It is anything but standard home inspection stuff.



With all due respect Ted, I will make whatever statement I wish to make. This is a forum that allows opinions and I gave mine. Your attempt to disparage my opinion by putting words in my mouth failed miserably. You could not even recognize what I clearly and plainly said. You could not make a cogent argument, you just soapboxed about how you are a minimalist inspector with boucoup expeience. Whatever works for ya. In and out--and stuff.

However, if you belive that notifying your client of the obvious signs of CD and it's possible implications on their potential purchase has nothing to do with a standard home inspection, I will give my opinion that you are dead wrong. If I had not (quite correctly), notified my clients of the signs and advised them on how to proceed, they may have purchsed several million dollars worth of useless properties that they might never have been able to insure or resale. That is just the sort of thing they hired me to do. I have never had a client request that I do an in-and-out inspection and defer common sense issues(pass the buck) to other (mostly cluless about the issue) tradesman. I wonder whose side of this debate the home buying public would come down on?

KOKO
Tim

Originally Posted by Mark Howe

Oh yeah

Folks...Quit with the "Due Diligence" statements all the time. Inspecting for Chinese drywall should have nothing to do with a standard home inspection. It is anything but standard home inspection stuff.



With all due respect Ted, I will make whatever statement I wish to make. This is a forum that allows opinions and I gave mine. Your attempt to disparage my opinion by putting words in my mouth failed miserably. You could not even recognize what I clearly and plainly said. You could not make a cogent argument, you just soapboxed about how you are a minimalist inspector with backup experience. Whatever works for ya. In and out--and stuff.

However, if you believe that notifying your client of the obvious signs of CD and it's possible implications on their potential purchase has nothing to do with a standard home inspection, I will give my opinion that you are dead wrong. If I had not (quite correctly), notified my clients of the signs and advised them on how to proceed, they may have purchased several million dollars worth of useless properties that they might never have been able to insure or resale. That is just the sort of thing they hired me to do. I have never had a client request that I do an in-and-out inspection and defer common sense issues(pass the buck) to other (mostly clueless about the issue) tradesman. I wonder whose side of this debate the home buying public would come down on?

KOKO
Tim

Jeez

Not only do you take things personal but you are also a sarcastic smart ass and for some reason or other wish to make fun of a spelling error.

Now that is my kind of inspector. A snappy, take everything personal, sarcastic smart ass.

Now you just cannot be any better than that.

Not only all that but you believe you are the only one capable of informing your clients anything about the home because you seem to have the opinion that all contractors are Schmucks that do not no nuttin about anytin.

I have great faith in most contractors of all sorts. There are millions of things done correctly by millions of tradesmen every year.

You should also note that if you are not positive about what the complete subject at hand it is always wise to have further follow up on any subject matter. And the fact is you are not going to be definite about the conclusion about the findings in Chinese drywall homes until you do much more extensive research into the matter and the fact of the matter someone will be following up behind you anyway if they wish to pursue the matter. A home inspector is not the know all end all. If you think you are then seriously, good luck to you. I have been building, remodeling and inspecting all my working life and I am now just about 56 and if there is anything I learned it is I do not and will not know it all and when I find a concern I put it to the next man in line to follow up, further evaluate, estimate and repair that concern. There is usually much more involved than what is at the surface of any concern.

As far as inspecting for Chinese drywall during your home inspection...Hey...Go for it. With the plethora of items you were already inspecting for , you wish to throw one more complicated and controversial item in there and then when something else comes up you might as well throw that in and the next and the next. We have inspectors over here that throw the kitchen sink in with their home inspections and keep adding to it. No prices ever go up but they keep adding services.

No they are not hiring you to find Chinese drywall. That is in fact another whole inspection and an extremely controversial at that. You might as well throw in a free IR scan as well along with a free termite as well. I mean after all they are hiring you to find every single concern in their home that there could possibly be. How about a free mold and lead inspection. Now there are a couple items all homes should be checked for because after all it will affect the home. OOOps, forgot about a free radon test. Might as well go all the way. I mean after all that is what they are hiring you to do.

Hey....How about that. I can be a smart ass as well. Wait. Let me see if I can find any spelling errors in your posts.

Yes...and stop with the due diligence crap. That is attorney and arbiter talk not a home inspectors talk.

One more thing. What the hell do you call it when you only spend 3 to 4 hours in a home and try to find every single item wrong in the home?

I call it an in and out. That is exactly what you are doing in 4 hours or less. You are in and 4 hours later you are out. Cannot be much more simple to understand than that.

There now. That feels much better

Sorry

Quick edit here

I just realized you were from ALABAMA . Oh boy, my bad. I did not understand but now I do

Is there licensing in Alabama, E & O?
Doesnt sound like it. Mr Howe is also a 'restoration consultant'. I think that means he gets a "piece" of any repairs or maybe even contracts to do them himself.

Attorney: " Mr. Howe, please explain to the jury how you are qualified to identify chinese drywall."