Thread: Pre-Drywall

Does anybody know if these tub units are suppose to be supported under the center support block located on the back of the unit. I can't find any info. The unit has a logo, Carolina Classic and under it had calloway 024-0625

The drain was cut on this tub which went unnoticed and would of been hell because the insulation and Sheetrock was scheduled.

Also one of my pet peeves is the exterior walls are framed and stood up on the floors. The exterior sheathing is flush with the wall instead of overhanging so it can be nailed to the floor rim, which not only strenghtens the wall assembly but closes off the gap between the bottom plate of the wall and plywood sub-floor. In the picture you can see the light at the floor from outside.

Another peeve is running the bath vent ducts in the soffits when the attic ventilation is ridge vent and soffit vents. The moisture can suck right back into the attic.

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Mike,

Some do and some don't. I would recommend review of the tub's installation instructions.

Isn't the exterior sheathing required to extend down past the sole plate? I would have thought that would be a shear requirement.

Have to agree with Gunnar on the ext sheathing. Bad work and lack of structural understanding by the builder.
The tub drain looks like they tried to hard pipe it in and screwed up. I would be concerned about the hard pipe versus a traditional waste and overflow set-up.

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Also one of my pet peeves is the[... ] exterior sheathing is flush with the wall instead of overhanging so it can be nailed to the floor rim, which not only strenghtens the wall assembly but closes off the gap between the bottom plate of the wall and plywood sub-floor.

Agreed. Refer to mfr. instructions for tub installation. Any Warranty coverage is usually dependant upon installation.

The sheathing thing makes me crazy. I'm seeing that alot here in Upstate NY. ZIP Systems have a sealing tape for those seams, but you're right - the structural issues are not addressed. If shear is not an issue, what about uplift? Did he use hold downs? I see alot of light coming under that sill plate.

In addition to everything else about that wall, either the wall is not true and square or the floor is not in plane and flat, is dropping at that corner, which could indicate other problems too.

Yes, the sheathing should overhang the bottom plate and be nailed to the framing below, or use a lot of straps, or both (I have seen both most of the time).

That condensate line (or whatever it is in the photo with the exhaust vent through the soffit) is going to be bent and flexed to install any siding, which would strain the 90 elbow and potentially break it.

Also, is that condensate line (or for any other purpose) properly supported at maximum 4 foot spacing? Looks like one end of the strap is nailed UP into the roof sheathing - that is not only a potential roof leak waiting to happen, but a potential for the nail to be driven back down or the strap to pull the nail out.

I thought those baffles were installed to keep insulation from blocking the soffit vents, not to block the soffit vents with the baffles (looks like very little - if any - air space above the baffles). Are those baffles fire retardant treated or will they burn quickly? Did you test a piece to see if it burns readily?

While the photos are not to show this, and are thus not close enough to show this, there does not look to be any spacing between roof sheathing sheets.

What's with the framed opening in that wall? will it be open or drywalled over? Looks like it exceeds the maximum span for drywall supports unless it is open, then how about above the opening (below the opening looks like it would meet it). The other areas framed similarly have a horizontal nailer across the center there.

The condensate pipe May have enough slack to be slid to the position to be cut through the perforated soffit. The strapping is nailed into the rafter.

The roof sheathing has "H" clips.

The card board baffles is standard around here. Flame retardant...I'm guessing about as much as the wood around it


The first an second floor on the right side of the home has deflection in the plane.

There is no Instructions available for the tub unit that is why I posted the name brand and # for maybe someone had an idea.

Opening in wall? I'm guessing you are talking about the partition walls that are 24" on center.

As far as the sheathing overlap I looked at the 02 edition until my eyes watered. I hate refer to this refer to that, jumping back and forth on pages. Enough to go loco. Could not find where overlapping is required. Someone have that particular code number? I see the sheathing not overlapped all the time here. I remember a couple of years ago a builder told me it wasn't required but take that with a grain of salt.

Another peeve is running the bath vent ducts in the soffits when the attic ventilation is ridge vent and soffit vents. The moisture can suck right back into the attic.

The 2006 IRC requires them to be vented directly to the outside. If they drop the ducts over into the soffit then they must install an approved receptor for the ducts so it will disperse the air to the outside and not into the overhang area itself.

SECTION M1501
GENERAL

M1501.1 Outdoor discharge.

The air removed by every
mechanical exhaust system shall be discharged to the outdoors.
Air shall not be exhausted into an attic, soffit, ridge vent or
crawl space.

Exception:

Whole-house ventilation-type attic fans that
discharge into the attic space of dwelling units having private
attics shall be permitted.

Now you can say something about that peeve of yours!

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

The card board baffles is standard around here. Flame retardant...I'm guessing about as much as the wood around it

Cardboard burns much quicker than wood.

There is no Instructions available for the tub unit that is why I posted the name brand and # for maybe someone had an idea.

Carolina Classic

http://www.cctubs.com/ADA_Instructions.pdf

Contact Information
Tel.: 800.775.8827
info@cctubs.com

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Opening in wall? I'm guessing you are talking about the partition walls that are 24" on center.

The openings which are greater than 24" in the shortest dimension. See drawing.

Tub Instructions Say's 3-4 and whirlpool units need shimmed. Now it also has a * saying shim if weight exceeds 250 lb. Now why would they just not say shim period! I guess they haven't seen married women....... or today's overweight kids!

Jerry that picture is squatted when I down sized it making those spacing wider then they actually are. I wish this forum had automatic picture sizing when uploading.

There is a vent cap they use for the bath fans that are designed for soffit. But the soffit is perforated on both sides of the vent cap. My peeve is put solid panels on each side of the cap to help keep from sucking back in the attic.

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Tub Instructions Say's 3-4 and whirlpool units need shimmed. Now it also has a * saying shim if weight exceeds 250 lb. Now why would they just not say shim period! I guess they haven't seen married women....... or today's overweight kids!

Jerry that picture is squatted when I down sized it making those spacing wider then they actually are. I wish this forum had automatic picture sizing when uploading.

There is a vent cap they use for the bath fans that are designed for soffit. But the soffit is perforated on both sides of the vent cap. My peeve is put solid panels on each side of the cap to help keep from sucking back in the attic.

OK thats it.......I am calling your wife on that one

She's the exception, 110 lb. soaking wet. But the both of us at the same time exceeds the limit :-)

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

.

Cardboard burns much quicker than wood.
.

.
See ASTM E-84.
.

Billy,

Go back up to this post.

That is what I am referring to, and if not treated, as my other post states, "Cardboard burns much quicker than wood." ... if not treated.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Are those baffles fire retardant treated or will they burn quickly? Did you test a piece to see if it burns readily?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Billy,

Go back up to this post.

That is what I am referring to, and if not treated, as my other post states, "Cardboard burns much quicker than wood." ... if not treated.

.
Yeah,

But there wasn't No Pictures.

*except for that 3rd one.

Jerry got me thinking.
They use the cardboard baffles in my area on almost every house. I have to say I have never looked to see if they are fire rated. HOnestly didn't know they needed to be.
Can you provide code section where they have to be? I know our AHJ has no problems with them, since they have been allowing them in houses around here for several decades.
Would love to see the code section, so I can bring it to the attention of the County Code Guys and get their take on it.
This is TN after all though.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

They use the cardboard baffles in my area on almost every house. I have to say I have never looked to see if they are fire rated. HOnestly didn't know they needed to be.
Can you provide code section where they have to be? I know our AHJ has no problems with them, since they have been allowing them in houses around here for several decades.
Would love to see the code section, so I can bring it to the attention of the County Code Guys and get their take on it.

From the 2006 IRC. (underlining and bold are mine)
- SECTION R316
- - INSULATION
- - - R316.1 Insulation. Insulation materials, including facings, such as vapor retarders or vapor permeable membranes installed within floor-ceiling assemblies, roof-ceiling assemblies, wall assemblies, crawl spaces and attics shall have a flame-spread index not to exceed 25 with an accompanying smoke-developed index not to exceed 450 when tested in accordance with ASTM E 84.
- - - - Exceptions:
- - - - - 1. When such materials are installed in concealed spaces, the flame-spread and smoke-developed limitations do not apply to the facings, provided that the facing is installed in substantial contact with the unexposed surface of the ceiling, floor or wall finish.

- - - - - 2. Cellulose loose-fill insulation, which is not spray applied, complying with the requirements of Section R316.3, shall only be required to meet the smoke developed index of not more than 450.

Those cardboard baffles need to be tested and approved as meeting ASTM E 84, which would include an application of some treatment if the cardboard did not meet the requirements without the treatment. Either way, they should be marked as meeting ASTM E 84, and if treated, marked as treated meeting ASTM E 84.

Gotta disagree on this one. This is not insulation material.

How do those cardboard baffles hold up down there? I haven't seen them up around our way. Don't they get soggy before too long?

Haven't seen any cardboard....only plastic.

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Gotta disagree on this one. This is not insulation material.

Wayne,

They are "insulation material" just as much as the paper facing is and which must meet the same requirements. They are "part of" the insulation system installation.

Originally Posted by archivoyeur

How do those cardboard baffles hold up down there? I haven't seen them up around our way. Don't they get soggy before too long?

The only time I have seen them wet is after hurricanes, but normally those are blown into the center of the attic right away, where they stay dry.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Wayne,

They are "insulation material" just as much as the paper facing is and which must meet the same requirements. They are "part of" the insulation system installation.



The only time I have seen them wet is after hurricanes, but normally those are blown into the center of the attic right away, where they stay dry.

I have to agree with Wayne. The baffles are not insulation material. The code does specify the "facings" but that is part of the insulation as it is attached to it. The code does not say anything about a "system" but it is specific on the insulation itself.

I would actually consider the baffles as part of the ventilation system of the home. They have a specific job to keep the bay open and to direct the air up and above the insulation so it can flow upwards and out of the attic.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

I would actually consider the baffles as part of the ventilation system of the home. They have a specific job to keep the bay open and to direct the air up and above the insulation so it can flow upwards and out of the attic.

So, you find baffles in older homes with no insulation?

Cool.

Guess that would make them for ventilation then.

It would be a toss up of a baffle or retainer. It basically is a retainer to keep insulation from being blown or falling into the soffit area. They install the same card board around the scuttle or pull down attic stairs.

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

It would be a toss up of a baffle or retainer. It basically is a retainer to keep insulation from being blown or falling into the soffit area. They install the same card board around the scuttle or pull down attic stairs.

Mike,

That's what I was pointing out in my response to Scott by saying that he sees them installed in homes with no insulation - that they *are not* part of the ventilation system, they *are* part of the insulation just as much as the paper facing on the insulation is part of the insulation.

The paper facing is a "vapor retarder", it is not "insulation", and, yes, like the cardboard baffles the paper facing is also used to hold the insulation in place.

Your last part, though, "They install the same card board around the scuttle or pull down attic stairs" is something I wrote up on 99% of the houses with loose fill insulation ... that the baffles/retainer around the attic access openings are not installed and the insulation depth there is only the height of the framing around the opening, the rest has already fallen out (if it was ever there). I could probably count the number of times I have seen the baffles/retainers installed around attic access openings on both hands, may not have to use all fingers, though.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

So, you find baffles in older homes with no insulation?

Cool.

Guess that would make them for ventilation then.

JP: Sorry, I have to side with WC and SP on this one. Baffles are not insulation any more than the metal duct extensions required for attic combustion air openings in IRC 1703.3(2), or the materials used to maintain the space required at non-IC luminaires in NEC 410.116(A)(1).

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

Baffles are not insulation any more than the metal duct extensions required for attic combustion air openings in IRC 1703.3(2),

Are those "metal duct extensions" combustible? I thought they were *metal* as you said. Therefore they comply, right? Yup.

or the materials used to maintain the space required at non-IC luminaires in NEC 410.116(A)(1).

Huh?

All that section is telling you is you you install a non-IC recessed light fixture that all parts of the fixture (except the mounting points) is required to have the specified clearance to combustible material.

That has nothing to do with insulation or anything being discussed. Besides, that recessed can is metal, and not combustible anyway.

So far, you have pointed out two METAL things, neither of which is related to insulation in any way.

How about an insulation baffle to keep insulation back from a Type B Gas Vent? Yep, METAL, not combustible.

Huh?

JP: So then, tell us again how cardboard and plastic soffit vent baffles are an integral part of the insualtion system. Huh?

JP: OK, I can see you are having an in-conference day. Let me clarify this for you. Your statement is that soffit vent baffles, because they are in contact with the insualtion in the attic, are somehow to be considered a part of the insulation system. Right?

So then, following your line of "reasoning" anything in the attic that is contact with the insualtion is a part of the insulation system, right? That covers a lot of ground, my friend. And, it goes way out on multiple limbs simultaneously. Your argument is simply unsupportable.

But, I certainly do appreciate your attempts (lame though they have been to date) to support these claims.

Aaron,

Your apparent arrogance is only exceeded by your real arrogance.

The cardboard baffles/retainers are there as part of the insulation system to keep the insulation in place and where it is supposed to be. Without loose fill insulation being blown in, there is no need for those baffles/retainer and they are not installed (they serve no other purpose).

The other items in contact with the insulation are not, those items would be there anyway as they are there for other purposes.

That is like saying that your head is in your butt because both are in contact with the air. While we know that your head is in your butt sometimes, it is not because both are in contact with air.

Now pull your head out of your butt and think about what we are talking about, you are a smart person (not just always a smart a$$ person) so I know you can work that through your mind and understand the differences, and why those baffles/retainers are there for the insulation, thus are part of the insulation.

JP: Out of the office and typing with thumbs, head out of butt, butt and head still in contact with air. Find no appreciable difference in my disbelief in your thought train (wreck).
Smilies do not work on Blackberry POS.
Will contact you when you return to Earth

Your apparent arrogance is only exceeded by your real arrogance.

JP: Thank you.

The cardboard baffles/retainers are there as part of the insulation system to keep the insulation in place and where it is supposed to be.

JP: they are there to keep the airflow unabated from the soffit vents, therefore they are an integral part of the ventilation system, and not the insulation system.

Without loose fill insulation being blown in, there is no need for those baffles/retainer and they are not installed (they serve no other purpose).

JP: See above.

The other items in contact with the insulation are not, those items would be there anyway as they are there for other purposes.

JP: The baffles around recessed fixtures and the WOODEN extensions above the insulation for combustion air are only there to prevent the insulation from interfering with those systems. They are also not parts of the insulation system, as you yourself admit.

you are a smart person (not just always a smart a$$ person)

JP: And thereby I am assured that you are cognizant of the fact that I am not about to be hoodwinked by your refusal to see the truth here.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

Will contact you when you return to Earth

On Planet Earth awaiting your arrival from wherever out there.

I have been noticing that your responses have been getting more acidic as time goes on, so I figured I would respond "in kind", or as they used to say "backatcha" good buddy.

I believe I just saw your flame out shooting star as you applied reverse thrusters for re-entry into earth atmosphere. Looking forward to your arrival ... Ground Control to Major Tom ... YouTube - David Bowie - Space Oddity (With lyrics)

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

On Planet Earth awaiting your arrival from wherever out there.

I have been noticing that your responses have been getting more acidic as time goes on, so I figured I would respond "in kind", or as they used to say "backatcha" good buddy.

I believe I just saw your flame out shooting star as you applied reverse thrusters for re-entry into earth atmosphere. Looking forward to your arrival ... Ground Control to Major Tom ... YouTube - David Bowie - Space Oddity (With lyrics)

JP: It is this f'ing heat! 104° with 27% humidity!! What is a mother to do? And, this has been going on for weeks. And, this is just the beginning of summer. And, I am having my usual annual misgivings about living in this HOT SOB! And, hope everyone on this forum can muster up a bit of empathy

I promise to try to be more accommodating and civil . . .

If it gets much hotter, and it is certain to do that, I feel that I may have to come around to your way of thinking. That is, once the heat has melted the insulation and baffles in my attic and fused them into one entity.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Mike,

That's what I was pointing out in my response to Scott by saying that he sees them installed in homes with no insulation - that they *are not* part of the ventilation system, they *are* part of the insulation just as much as the paper facing on the insulation is part of the insulation.

I don't recall typing anything about homes with "no" insulation?

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

I don't recall typing anything about homes with "no" insulation?

SP: I think you have to go easy on JP. He seems a bit out of sorts today

[quote=Mike Schulz;91313]
Jerry that picture is squatted when I down sized it making those spacing wider then they actually are. I wish this forum had automatic picture sizing when uploading.


Here is a free image re-sizer that I have been using for years without trouble if it helps, very easy to use. No endorsement or guarantees here just information, use at your own risk.
Free Image Resize Software Import organize resize photos- VSO

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

I don't recall typing anything about homes with "no" insulation?

You didn't, but you said those were for "ventilation", in which case they would need to be installed for "ventilation", which would include homes with no insulation.

To the contrary, they are for "insulation" purposes, which makes them part of the insulation, not the ventilation.

That is what I was pointing out.

You guy's are baffling!

Thanks for the link I'll try the resizer.

Scott before I download does it allow you to resize by putting in size to 197kb or does do by 640x800 resolution. I have a re-sizer by the latter but it takes 3 or 4 times to get it to the kb size this site wants. Thats why it should have an automatic re-sizer when you post. People would probably post more stuff if they didn't have to spend time resing the shi&

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Scott before I download does it allow you to resize by putting in size to 197kb or does do by 640x800 resolution. I have a re-sizer by the latter but it takes 3 or 4 times to get it to the kb size this site wants. Thats why it should have an automatic re-sizer when you post. People would probably post more stuff if they didn't have to spend time resing the shi&

Its very flexible program and usually takes me no more than 2 shots max to get it to the correct download size. Many different options 320x200, 50% reduction, desk top resolution, I-Pod photo or what ever you want to put in. I don't use it every day but if I used it more often I would have a better handle on the program. All the programs VSO has that I have used are user friendly and very affordable if not free. I been using thier products for a good 7-8 years without issue. Good luck!

Was gone for the weekend up north.

All that section is telling you is you you install a non-IC recessed light fixture that all parts of the fixture (except the mounting points) is required to have the specified clearance to combustible material.

That has nothing to do with insulation or anything being discussed. Besides, that recessed can is metal, and not combustible anyway.

Per UL1598:

IC Type fixtures maximum allowable temperature for any point of contact with building materials is 90ºC (194º F)

Non-IC Type fixtures maximum allowable temperature for any point of contact with building materials is 150ºC (302º F)

Autoignition temperature for paper is approximately 450º C (840 °F).
(451º Farenheit, the Ray Bradbury novel is a misnomer)