Results 1 to 53 of 53
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,549

    Default How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    From what I see, there's no clear definition.
    1. You do the inspection for the seller so they know what to fix. No one else sees the report.
    2. You do the inspection report so they can show it to the buyer, but that's the end of it.
    3. You do the inspection for the seller and then the buyer, whom you've never met and who has not paid a penny, phones you and asks for a walkthrough.

    I'm fine with 1 and 2, but it's 3 I have trouble with. I want to get paid again and have a new agreement signed before I take on a new client.
    I've already got a client, that's the seller.

    I turned that last one done and got negative reponse from the realtors, who had paid for the pre-listing. They feel I should have taken the buyers through the house. I did a phone conference with them and advised them to get another inspector.

    Similar Threads:
    Inspection Referral SOC
    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,828

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    same as a post listing, no discount. Walk through for buyer is 150 per hr plus driving time


  3. #3
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    From what I see, there's no clear definition.
    1. You do the inspection for the seller so they know what to fix. No one else sees the report.
    2. You do the inspection report so they can show it to the buyer, but that's the end of it.
    3. You do the inspection for the seller and then the buyer, whom you've never met and who has not paid a penny, phones you and asks for a walkthrough.

    I'm fine with 1 and 2, but it's 3 I have trouble with. I want to get paid again and have a new agreement signed before I take on a new client.
    I've already got a client, that's the seller.

    I turned that last one done and got negative response from the Realtors, who had paid for the pre-listing. They feel I should have taken the buyers through the house. I did a phone conference with them and advised them to get another inspector.
    An inspection for the seller is just that. Sure, everyone is going to see it but you have no obligation to anyone but the seller. He paid, he gets the service.

    If the buyer wants anything explained then he needs to pay you for an inspection. Why should your seller have pay to you and no one else does? Then there is "what has the seller fixed since then?" The Realtors have a personal hang up to think you are going to drive to a property, do a complete walk thru with a buyer, and not get paid Why would anyone think that your time is worth nothing. Sooooooooooo, 15 possible buyers.....and you are suppose to do a walk thru with all of them ? for free?

    I have been able to put up with or tolerate Realtors that try to bud in for years and want to set the price or in this matter, no price for a home inspection.

    An inspection last week put the limit to my welcome for Realtors. I personally they should be involved in nothing with the exception of putting an addendum together for what the buyer wants fixed and then negotiating it. Just the fact of a Realtor, from either side being there, I believe is a trespass on your non conflict laws. I know there are many inspectors out there that will argue that that is foolish but I know and they know that there is ALWAYS something from one side or the other commenting about "no big deal" This home was built long before that time" Those don't need to be there this home is grandfathered" "the seller just did everything over and isn't it wonderful?" "but just look at those cabinets" or just a simple look or a face. Or this one from last week (with all of the above) "My regular inspector, when explaining the findings , always adds", "but it really is no big deal" or expected to be like that in this year home" "In general it is not a new home and of course it will have faults" "You know what I mean"....".We don't want to scare the folks off. They are a first time buyers!"

    True story.........

    My time for Realtors being anywhere near me when I am inspecting has ended. Them being present when I am going over the inspection has ended. They can try to influence as much as they want as long as I know nothing about it and not in front of me. There is nothing I can do about that. I actually forgot to inspect the sprinklers because I wanted to get out of there so fast and had to go back to inspect them. Needless to say this Realtor liked none of my comments or how I went over my findings. Then she had the audacity to be present at the inspection of the sprinklers. I did my job and left.

    Sorry

    That just happened. I did not mean to hijack this thread or go on and on about it. It just happened so as far as Realtor wants and interference with me is a very sour subject.

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 08-05-2010 at 09:36 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    John, I've done pre-listing inspections and handle them no differently than I do a pre-sale inspection. There's really no difference as far as I am concerned.

    As for somebody expecting you to just do a walkthrough for a buyer based solely upon an inspection you did for the seller a week, a month, or a year ago, and think they shouldn't have to pay the full price for a full inspection, they don't get it. One, you did the inspection for somebody else. Two, a home inspection is a 3+ hour snapshot of the conditions that exist at the time of the inspection. Anything and many things can change from the time where you did that inspection and now. Is it likely? Who knows. It's not out of the question.

    I don't know what a realtor's expectation is of a pre-listing inspection and what the inspector is supposed to do afterwards. Apparently in your case, they think you are somehow beholden to any future buyers of the property.

    Our HI fee equates to a very small percentage of the price of the house. It doesn't take much in terms of a claim to completely wipe out our fee. There's no way I'm going to say the conditions I observed even a week ago could not have changed. Get a torrential rainstorm, leak shows up where there was previously no visible evidence of moisture penetration, now they're calling us.

    No thank you.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring Hill (Nashville), TN
    Posts
    5,847

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Pre listing inspection and an inspection for the sale are the same in my book.

    I do not offer to come back for free to walk through the home with a buyer. Actually, I can not recall every being asked to come back to a home for a buyer on a pre-listing inspection. Most buyers are not going to use the same person that the homeowner used, I know I wouldn't.

    It really does sound like the agent had other ideas and unrealistic expectations.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,549

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    John, I've done pre-listing inspections and handle them no differently than I do a pre-sale inspection. There's really no difference as far as I am concerned.
    I'd like to think there's no diff and often that is the case, like when I hear nothing more and the home vanishes from the MLS, yeah, they must have sold it..

    As far as the buyers paying, that's not a big deal, they will pay and sign an agreement if I demand it.

    There are subtle differences. The house is usually in rough shape, and if realtors are involved, they've suggested a pre-listing inspection to help sell the place. I'm part of their sales pitch now, like it or not. Ted knows where he stands on this issue.

    Usually, the seller hires me, so I'm working for him. I try to simply describe the home accurately in my report. The small blemishes and minor items are not always in there, no interest to the home owner. I will ask if they intend to share the report and get vague answers, like, depends on what you find, maybe, we'll see how it goes, etc. I have them sign a release of info clause in the agreement if there's a chance the potential buyers will be calling me. When they call, I go back through the report and recall the worst items, but yeah, it's been months since I saw the place, that was then, this is now.
    Am I liable to these people the buyers, for just talking with them?

    If I go back, get paid, and walk them around, I've taken on liability to them for any future problems. This last place, I wasn't prepared to do that, five months after my initial inspection.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    2,365

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    They're the same to me... the only difference is I hold my comments about the house smelling like dirty feet

    Really, the only difficult part I have is telling the seller they don't know what they're doing and messed up an entire deck, roof, etc.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Am I liable to these people the buyers, for just talking with them?

    If I go back, get paid, and walk them around, I've taken on liability to them for any future problems. This last place, I wasn't prepared to do that, five months after my initial inspection.
    Make it simple. Tell these people that inspection and report was done for the owner of the property 5 months ago. If you'd like me to perform a full inspection, I'd be happy to do so for a full inspection fee.

    If they grouse, they need to understand that what they should be looking for is the most recent info on the conditions of the house. How do you know that issues you called out with wiring inside the service panel weren't made worse by some hack who has done some electrical work on the side? People will try to save money and cut corners by doing repairs themselves.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    2,365

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    My state, Oregon, must be ahead of the curve (hard to believe).... they require a statement on the front of our reports and contracts that says the report cannot be used by anyone other than the person who contracted for it and is named.

    I think they had some problems with people trying to file claims against an inspector when they didn't hire him. Overall, it's nice to have the backup of the law to tell people why I can't do a re-inspection for them or talk to them about the report.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    For a voluntary listing inspection I'll do the same inspection as a buyer would receive. For $125 I'll do a walk and talk with the new buyers. The walk and talk is not an inspection, but is only used to give first time home buyers an idea of how to take care of the home.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    I usually talk about as many out of a pre-listing inspection as I perform.
    The seller needs to be aware that if this is a real pre-listing inspection being done as part of or in anticipation of selling the house then they will be bound by disclosure laws and they might not want to make my nit-picking anal retentive report available to all future buyers
    On the other hand if they just want a maintenance inspection to know what things they should fix (not related to a real estate transaction) then that REPORT would not be subject to the disclosure laws as I understand them... but I am not a lawyer.
    In either case if they do the inspection they WILL be aware of many more defects and will be liable to either repair or disclose those defects.
    So they should not get an inspection unless they are committed to either repair or disclose ALL of what I report.
    The only good parts are that it takes defects off of the bargaining table if you disclose it up front and the repairs can be done by the person of their choosing at their pace and price.
    Some people want to get it done and make the house as right as they can and others choose not to do the inspection and just roll the dice hoping they get a drive by inspector once the sell the house.
    Either way, they know up front what to expect.

    If the buyer wants me to inspect for them, then it is a full price inspection, no cheating off the old report.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,049

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Like the others mentioned, it's the same for me. Get hired, do the inspection, collect fee. You're liable under the same laws either way so why should anything be different?

    Like Jim said above, I do mention disclosure laws and suggest to sellers that they just fix what they know is wrong without an inspection and let the buyer hire their own inspector.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Jim and John, you should both lay down right now and take your temperatures. You're talking people out of getting inspections.

    I understand you're trying to keep the sellers from opening a proverbial can of worms but that's what inspections do....they bring issues to light. The owners don't have to fix everything no more than they have to agree to every request a buyer makes. They can fix what they feel are the most important issues and disclose the rest.

    The greatest value in a prelisting inspection is determining if there are any potential deal breaking issues so they can be addressed before listing the house. Personally, I wish more sellers had prelisting inspections because I get worn out inspecting dumps. Assuming the sellers actually do something with the information they get and make repairs, it may result in a better overall quality of homes on the market. And it would be another source of work for all of us.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Nick, your right, I'm might be a little off balance as compared to some, talking people out of my services.
    But what I am really doing is ensuring I have a client that is satisfied with the service I provide. I can't "un-ring the bell" but I can warn folks about what it sounds like before I start ringing it.
    I'm confident that I will find and report more defects than the average inspector and have the reputation among clients that want me to inspect the property they are buying but have an "oh crap" moment thinking about me inspecting what they are selling!
    That is why I warn them to be prepared to "fix it or disclose it" before I start the inspection because you can't claim ignorance once you get my report.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  15. #15
    Mitchell Toelle's Avatar
    Mitchell Toelle Guest

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    For a voluntary listing inspection I'll do the same inspection as a buyer would receive. For $125 I'll do a walk and talk with the new buyers. The walk and talk is not an inspection, but is only used to give first time home buyers an idea of how to take care of the home.
    Ken,

    How would you form a Contract for that walk through. Seems to me, if monies changed hands, that you would be on the hook for what you shared with the client, but there would be no "report" or documentation of what was discovered. Seems very problematic. Huge liability.


  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitchell Toelle View Post
    Ken,

    How would you form a Contract for that walk through. Seems to me, if monies changed hands, that you would be on the hook for what you shared with the client, but there would be no "report" or documentation of what was discovered. Seems very problematic. Huge liability.
    Keep in mind every time I've done a listing inspection the inspection report became part of the disclosure, that's what the inspection is done for. That report is shared with all potential buyers. That's how they know to call me for a "walk and talk". A "walk and talk" is not an inspection.

    Since the inspection report contract is with the seller I obtain approval with them to discuss the report with the buyer. My contractual obligation is to the seller. It's the seller's name on the report. Even though I discuss the inspection report with the buyer and do a walk and talk with the buyer I have no contractual obligation to them. I have no liability to the buyer since I never performed an inspection for them.

    As inspectors we can be sued for anything. But in this case the buyer would have to show the court that there was some sort of agreement with the inspector. They could not do it. The inspection report is not in their name and there is no inspection agreement between them and myself. All they would have is a payment receipt for a "walk and talk". It would go something like this:
    "Your Honor, I never performed an inspection for the plaintiff therefore have no obligation to them. As you can see by the inspection report on the home, the inspection was performed for someone else". The Judge: "Case dismissed". Now, if they want a contractual obligation with me, they'll need to buy an inspection and sign an inspection agreement.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Ken, I'm not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV, but if you accept money from an individual for a service, then you have a contract.

    I'll bet your E&O carrier, if you have one, would expect you to have a written contract for this activity.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Ken, I'm not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV, but if you accept money from an individual for a service, then you have a contract.

    I'll bet your E&O carrier, if you have one, would expect you to have a written contract for this activity.
    I have $2 million in E&O and my carrier has no problem with this.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    2,365

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    "Your Honor, I never performed an inspection for the plaintiff therefore have no obligation to them. As you can see by the inspection report on the home, the inspection was performed for someone else". The Judge: "Case dismissed".
    Keep in mind you'd probably be in 15K + in attorney's fees to get to your "Matlock moment", something your E&O carrier would never let happen.

    It sounds as though you're counting on what's right to happen in our legal system..... LOL.... LOL... LOL (and I'm not laughing at you, Ken, I'm laughing at our system.... I've been there and it's a joke).

    Our legal system is no place for a mere peon HI like you and I. Unless you're a fortune 500 company with unlimited resources our courts are merely a sharade. It's not who's right and wrong... it's who has the most money and is willing to spend it.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I have $2 million in E&O and my carrier has no problem with this.
    Have you asked them specifically about this? The reason I asked is that my carrier expects me to have a signed agreement on hand for EVERY inspection. In the state of Texas, your "walk and talk" would be classified as an inspection by statue and would require a written report. So it is a moot point for me personally, just trying to make the point that and inspection is what it is perceived to be by law, not just the name that you give it.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Keep in mind you'd probably be in 15K + in attorney's fees to get to your "Matlock moment", something your E&O carrier would never let happen.

    It sounds as though you're counting on what's right to happen in our legal system..... LOL.... LOL... LOL (and I'm not laughing at you, Ken, I'm laughing at our system.... I've been there and it's a joke).

    Our legal system is no place for a mere peon HI like you and I. Unless you're a fortune 500 company with unlimited resources our courts are merely a sharade. It's not who's right and wrong... it's who has the most money and is willing to spend it.
    Matt,

    As I previously stated, a Home Inspector can be sued for anything. If I was concerned about liability I certainly would not be in this profession.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Have you asked them specifically about this? The reason I asked is that my carrier expects me to have a signed agreement on hand for EVERY inspection. In the state of Texas, your "walk and talk" would be classified as an inspection by statue and would require a written report. So it is a moot point for me personally, just trying to make the point that and inspection is what it is perceived to be by law, not just the name that you give it.
    Jim,

    Yes, we have asked them specifically about this. Otherwise I would never have said, "they don't have a problem with it". As I have said a couple times, there is a signed agreement for the inspection. Signed by the seller, who I perform the inspection for.

    I can't comment on Texas, their statutes and requirements. I don't live in Texas. Minnesota has no regulations regarding home inspectors or home inspections. Just like code requirements. What's proper here in MN may not be proper in TX.

    Not that I don't believe you but I would find it frustrating if the local jurisdiction required me to perform another inspection, report, and contract in order to explain my previous report to a person who is not my client.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  23. #23
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Doing Pre-Listing inspections and literally eliminating buyers getting an inspection if talked into a "Walk and Talk" (second inspection) by the Realtor.

    This leaves the field wide open for corrupt Realtors and even the not so corrupt Realtors to go to the dark side and have the Pre Listing inspector that performed the inspection for the seller to do a "Walk and Talk" for prospective buyers for $125.00 which I am positive any inspector doing this markets to Realtors for walk and talks.

    WOW

    They are paying the Inspector....125.00 compared to ....maybe 300.00 for an inspector that is hired to look out for their interest but instead they get the inspector that was hired by the seller who is trying to sell the home so he can hopefully sell for a gain to move some where else to put that gain into another property.

    I say

    BUYERS BEWARE


  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Doing Pre-Listing inspections and literally eliminating buyers getting an inspection if talked into a "Walk and Talk" (second inspection) by the Realtor.

    This leaves the field wide open for corrupt Realtors and even the not so corrupt Realtors to go to the dark side and have the Pre Listing inspector that performed the inspection for the seller to do a "Walk and Talk" for prospective buyers for $125.00 which I am positive any inspector doing this markets to Realtors for walk and talks.

    WOW

    They are paying the Inspector....125.00 compared to ....maybe 300.00 for an inspector that is hired to look out for their interest but instead they get the inspector that was hired by the seller who is trying to sell the home so he can hopefully sell for a gain to move some where else to put that gain into another property.

    I say

    BUYERS BEWARE
    I'm pretty sure this is the kind of crap Brian is trying to get off this forum. So instead of addressing your antagonistic comments I'll simply say the inspector makes $425 on a $300 inspection, not $125.

    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 08-08-2010 at 05:30 PM.
    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    4,170

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Ken, not trying to be antagonistic but who is paying the $125, the buyer or the seller?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  26. #26
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Figured I'd chime in here and say.... Normally after I do a pre-sell inspection repairs are done to the house so the inspection report is no longer accurate and a new inspection would be needed. I don't think I would ever have contact with a buyer on a house I inspected for a seller. It just don't sound right to me to be involved with both parties in any manner. And that's just me being me....no regulations or laws involved.


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Ken, not trying to be antagonistic but who is paying the $125, the buyer or the seller?
    The buyer.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    Figured I'd chime in here and say.... Normally after I do a pre-sell inspection repairs are done to the house so the inspection report is no longer accurate and a new inspection would be needed. I don't think I would ever have contact with a buyer on a house I inspected for a seller. It just don't sound right to me to be involved with both parties in any manner. And that's just me being me....no regulations or laws involved.
    On our listing inspections, if repairs are done and the seller wants the report to reflect the changes we will do a re-inspection to update the original inspection report. That's an additional charge.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  29. #29
    Ricky Wells's Avatar
    Ricky Wells Guest

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    I do a pre-listing inspection the same way I do an inspection for a homebuyer buying a home. The same Standards of Practice apply.

    It gets difficult sometimes picking apart the sellers work that they have performed on the house over their time or residence. One of the excuses you hear from sellers quite often is " its been like that since we bought the house". Thats ok and just let them believe that you believe that. Dont ever blame them or you will lose the chance of inspecting the house they will be moving to if they buy in the area that you work.

    If the buyers of the property contact you and ask about the inspection on the property, kindly remind them that the report is confidential between you and the party that hired you and to discuss it with anyone else would be a dis-sservice to your clients. However, you would be more than happy to perform a full inspection on the property for them and the prior inspection will have no influence on what you find now.


  30. #30
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Antagonistic "

    No idea why one would say that. Just simply stating that one would be and is opening the doors to tremendous ethics confusion. Of course the buyer, initially, thinks this is wonderful to only have to pay 125.00 when someone else just had to pay 300. I would imagine one would get a serious amount of work through Realtors. This fits right into moving the sale along with no one else between them and the sale. I would say this is about the best marketing plan to Realtors that ever was or has been.

    Now for the folks that do hire their own home inspector...even if it is a referral from a Realtor (just not the sellers Inspector) keep doing it and suggesting it to your friends and family. Cut all ties to one that is still working for someone else on the same inspection.

    No this is not antagonistic. This is real life and one of the reasons the inspectors get so much scrutiny about ethics.

    When one inspects for a seller he should never inspect or do...how do you say that.....a "walk and talk" for the buyer. This is worse than an inspector inspecting homes and then bidding on all the work.

    I think the owner of this site and everyone else on here and reading this thinks the same way. I would be willing to bet that the folks that work on homes they inspect do not find what they do unethical but they would see this as unethical as one could get.

    Now of course this is just my opinion
    and I would not want to be seen as being antagonistic or hateful or non professional in any way. Just discussing the ethics of home inspection. This is not directed at anyone in particular but just to the general populous of home inspectors and home buyers.

    If a buyer were to ask me what I thought of this practice I would simply state what I did above......Buyer Beware.... After all this is what we are all about. We put our time into an inspection for a buyer or a seller with absolutely no interference or influence of any kind. That includes from the seller or listing agent or buyers agent or buyer, all depending on the person one is inspecting for.

    I for one say nothing more than how are you and I will be starting on the outside and then coming in thru the garage....to the seller when I arrive if they are home. When I leave it is have a nice day folks. As far as any Realtor that shows up it is "high, how are you? And go about my business. When I am going over my findings with the client I address the client, not the Realtor. Everything is nice and neat and clean and if more is tried to take place from the Realtor to me I explain to them how I operate and go about my business. My business is with the folks I am inspecting for and no one else.


  31. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    I would imagine one would get a serious amount of work through Realtors.
    I would say this is about the best marketing plan to Realtors that ever was or has been.
    even if it is a referral from a Realtor
    As far as any Realtor that shows up it is "high, how are you?
    I address the client, not the Realtor.
    Everything is nice and neat and clean and if more is tried to take place from the Realtor to me I explain to them how I operate and go about my business.
    Try to stay on topic. This thread really has nothing to do with Realtors or ethics. The title of the thread is: How Do You do a Pre-listing Inspection.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,549

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Hello Ken, and thanks for seeing there is more to it than just yes you can, no, you can't. You are right, there are risks. You assess the risks before proceeding, and that's what we're trying to do here.

    The concept of the pre-listing is pretty new for some, it seems, and as I said in the OP, there is no clear definition.
    The simple way, do it for the seller only.

    Want to work for the buyer, too? I believe there may be liability for the walk and talk with the buyer. This is a question for an attorney, I think.
    For example, "Why did you not tell them about that foundation crack?" "Well we walked around and then went in through the back door. Never got to it. I wasn't inspecting the house for them, and I told them so." "They trusted you to give them the goods, and you chose to skip some things."

    Here's the other scenario, which I narrowly avoided recently. The buyers had an accepted offer, they'd seen my pre-listing inspection report, now they wanted me to re-inspect. But I backed off. They used another inspector's report to get out of the deal. If I had done both inspections, the seller would be wanting to know, "What's in your report that ain't in mine? The one I showed you before you made your offer?" Then he'd try to come after me, too. Wanna be shark bait for $3-400? No, thanks.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    John,

    Want to work for the buyer, too? I believe there may be liability for the walk and talk with the buyer. This is a question for an attorney, I think.
    For example, "Why did you not tell them about that foundation crack?" "Well we walked around and then went in through the back door. Never got to it. I wasn't inspecting the house for them, and I told them so." "They trusted you to give them the goods, and you chose to skip some things."
    Keep in mind, by the time I'm called back for the "walk and talk" the original inspection report has become part of the disclosure. The seller has provided a copy of the report to the buyer and has it with them on the "walk and talk". I'll ask if they read the entire report. I'll ask if there were anything in the report they had concerns about. I'll take them on a walking tour of their home discussing everything in the report. Show them their mechanicals and how they operate. Everything in the report is covered with the buyers so there is no chance for them to come back and say, "Why did you not tell them about that foundation crack?"

    One thing I should have added earlier is that if the inspection was performed over 30 days previously the "walk and talk" is no longer an option.

    We used to do a ton of listing inspections when the market was good. But, in the past few years more and more local jurisdictions have mandated listing inspections in their cities. Currently 12 cities in the Twin City area have mandated listing inspections. All have different inspection criteria and all cities have different licensing for their inspectors. In fact licensing exams only take place every two of more years, depending on the city. Some cities require the city building official to do the inspection. Also, banks selling foreclosed properties don't want to pay for a listing inspection that isn't mandated, so honestly I haven't done a listing inspection in probably 2 years.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,549

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Thanks, Ken. The 30 day limit makes good sense. It would also help if it's a decent house in reasonable shape.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    For a voluntary listing inspection I'll do the same inspection as a buyer would receive. For $125 I'll do a walk and talk with the new buyers. The walk and talk is not an inspection, but is only used to give first time home buyers an idea of how to take care of the home.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Keep in mind every time I've done a listing inspection the inspection report became part of the disclosure, that's what the inspection is done for. That report is shared with all potential buyers. That's how they know to call me for a "walk and talk". A "walk and talk" is not an inspection.

    Since the inspection report contract is with the seller I obtain approval with them to discuss the report with the buyer. My contractual obligation is to the seller. It's the seller's name on the report. Even though I discuss the inspection report with the buyer and do a walk and talk with the buyer I have no contractual obligation to them. I have no liability to the buyer since I never performed an inspection for them.

    As inspectors we can be sued for anything. But in this case the buyer would have to show the court that there was some sort of agreement with the inspector. They could not do it. The inspection report is not in their name and there is no inspection agreement between them and myself. All they would have is a payment receipt for a "walk and talk". It would go something like this:
    "Your Honor, I never performed an inspection for the plaintiff therefore have no obligation to them. As you can see by the inspection report on the home, the inspection was performed for someone else". The Judge: "Case dismissed". Now, if they want a contractual obligation with me, they'll need to buy an inspection and sign an inspection agreement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I have $2 million in E&O and my carrier has no problem with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Matt,

    As I previously stated, a Home Inspector can be sued for anything. If I was concerned about liability I certainly would not be in this profession.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Jim,

    Yes, we have asked them specifically about this. Otherwise I would never have said, "they don't have a problem with it". As I have said a couple times, there is a signed agreement for the inspection. Signed by the seller, who I perform the inspection for.

    I can't comment on Texas, their statutes and requirements. I don't live in Texas. Minnesota has no regulations regarding home inspectors or home inspections. Just like code requirements. What's proper here in MN may not be proper in TX.

    Not that I don't believe you but I would find it frustrating if the local jurisdiction required me to perform another inspection, report, and contract in order to explain my previous report to a person who is not my client.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    I'm pretty sure this is the kind of crap Brian is trying to get off this forum. So instead of addressing your antagonistic comments I'll simply say the inspector makes $425 on a $300 inspection, not $125.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Ken, not trying to be antagonistic but who is paying the $125, the buyer or the seller?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    The buyer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    On our listing inspections, if repairs are done and the seller wants the report to reflect the changes we will do a re-inspection to update the original inspection report. That's an additional charge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Try to stay on topic. This thread really has nothing to do with Realtors or ethics. The title of the thread is: How Do You do a Pre-listing Inspection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    John,

    Keep in mind, by the time I'm called back for the "walk and talk" the original inspection report has become part of the disclosure. The seller has provided a copy of the report to the buyer and has it with them on the "walk and talk". I'll ask if they read the entire report. I'll ask if there were anything in the report they had concerns about. I'll take them on a walking tour of their home discussing everything in the report. Show them their mechanicals and how they operate. Everything in the report is covered with the buyers so there is no chance for them to come back and say, "Why did you not tell them about that foundation crack?"

    One thing I should have added earlier is that if the inspection was performed over 30 days previously the "walk and talk" is no longer an option.

    We used to do a ton of listing inspections when the market was good. But, in the past few years more and more local jurisdictions have mandated listing inspections in their cities. Currently 12 cities in the Twin City area have mandated listing inspections. All have different inspection criteria and all cities have different licensing for their inspectors. In fact licensing exams only take place every two of more years, depending on the city. Some cities require the city building official to do the inspection. Also, banks selling foreclosed properties don't want to pay for a listing inspection that isn't mandated, so honestly I haven't done a listing inspection in probably 2 years.
    I'm having difficulty grasping how excepting a fee for a "walk and talk" from a buyer regarding a pending or potential property transaction wherein you performed a seller's inspection with a contracted understanding with said seller regarding said inspection report that it would be shared with any and all potential buyers can be considered in concert with the ASHI Code of Ethics, or bylaws, or the spirit of either.

    ASHI Code of Ethics, Section 1:

    Inspectors shall avoid conflicts of interest or activities that compromise, or appear to compromise, professional independence, objectivity, or inspection integrity.
    You are receiving compensation from more than one party, and it is all based on the relationship you established with the original pre- or present-listing inspection on behalf of the Seller. The subsequent "availability" and BASIS (knowledge, content, access, and now time-frame restriction) for the so-called "walk and talk" for which you are being compensated by the BUYER, NOT THE SELLER as an "orientation" or "walk-through" or any other such, is BASED on your familiarity of the property and your inspection report, and now as further stated, time restricted as to 30 days - of your SELLER client's inspection.

    Even with "seller's" permission I just can't see a disclosure/informed consent being sufficient to properly educate the buyer that this walk and talk and your Seller contracted pre-listing or present-listing Seller's inspection DOES NOT REPRESENT THE BUYER'S INTERESTS and would be COMPROMISED.

    Sub D of Section 1 of ASHI Code of Ethics:

    D. Inspectors shall not receive compensation for an inspection from more than one party unless agreed to by the client(s).
    Since you're claiming the only activity of this set up governed by ASHI SoP and CoE or bylaws is the actual Seller's Inspection and report (yet by your further post submissions the (the walk and talk & the original inspection and report) activities are apparently connected - I presume you do not consider the buyer's paying for this walk and talk to be clients?!? Yet you receive money for the service of the so-called "walk and talk". The CoE, SoP and bylaws do cover activities beyond home inspections (i.e. restrictions to not performing services or selling products for one year, etc.)

    They (the buyers) are without question a separate PARTY to the real-estate transaction than the "sellers" or potential/hopefull "sellers".

    Your ability to derive the buyer "walk and talk" "buisness" and "income" is based upon the inspection, by your own admission. You further attribute the total fees collected as connected to the service and report of original sellers inspection in your more recent posts.

    Further, Section 3 of the ASHI CoE:

    Inspectors shall avoid activities that may harm the public, discredit themselves, or reduce public confidence in the profession.
    Has there been an RFI on this post-seller's inspection buyer paid pre-closing "walk and talk" (if so, please share)? If not, I suggest (strongly recommend) that one should be submitted (Pronto!).


  36. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    From what I see, there's no clear definition.
    1. You do the inspection for the seller so they know what to fix. No one else sees the report.
    2. You do the inspection report so they can show it to the buyer, but that's the end of it.
    3. You do the inspection for the seller and then the buyer, whom you've never met and who has not paid a penny, phones you and asks for a walkthrough.

    I'm fine with 1 and 2, but it's 3 I have trouble with. I want to get paid again and have a new agreement signed before I take on a new client.
    I've already got a client, that's the seller.

    I turned that last one done and got negative reponse from the realtors, who had paid for the pre-listing. They feel I should have taken the buyers through the house. I did a phone conference with them and advised them to get another inspector.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post

    Try to stay on topic. This thread really has nothing to do with Realtors or ethics. The title of the thread is: How Do You do a Pre-listing Inspection.
    Ken Rowe:

    OF COURSE THIS HAS TO DO WITH ETHICS. One's performance of Home Inspections should always be done ethically. Realtors were mentioned in original post (which I quoted immediately above my quote of your post), and regarding the title of the thread, one LISTS with real estate brokers/agents. IT HAS TO DO WITH BOTH.

    How can you defend such a statement?!?


  37. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    HG,

    I'm having difficulty grasping how excepting a fee for a "walk and talk" from a buyer regarding a pending or potential property transaction wherein you performed a seller's inspection with a contracted understanding with said seller regarding said inspection report that it would be shared with any and all potential buyers can be considered in concert with the ASHI Code of Ethics, or bylaws, or the spirit of either.

    ASHI Code of Ethics, Section 1:

    Quote:

    Inspectors shall avoid conflicts of interest or activities that compromise, or appear to compromise, professional independence, objectivity, or inspection integrity.
    The ASHI Code of Ethics then goes on to list what they have determined to be violations which you conveniently failed to show.

    A. Inspectors shall not inspect properties for compensation in which they have, or expect to have, a financial interest.
    B. Inspectors shall not inspect properties under contingent arrangements whereby any compensation or future referrals are dependent on reported findings or on the sale of a property.
    C. Inspectors shall not directly or indirectly compensate realty agents, or other parties having a financial interest in closing or settlement of real estate transactions, for the referral of inspections or for inclusion on a list of recommended inspectors, preferred providers, or similar arrangements.
    D. Inspectors shall not receive compensation for an inspection from more than one party unless agreed to by the client(s).
    E. Inspectors shall not accept compensation, directly or indirectly, for recommending contractors, services, or products to inspection clients or other parties having an interest in inspected properties.
    F. Inspectors shall not repair, replace, or upgrade, for compensation, systems or components covered by ASHI Standards of Practice, for one year after the inspection.

    The highlighted passage is the one pertaining to a walk and talk.

    Even with "seller's" permission I just can't see a disclosure/informed consent being sufficient to properly educate the buyer that this walk and talk and your Seller contracted pre-listing or present-listing Seller's inspection DOES NOT REPRESENT THE BUYER'S INTERESTS and would be COMPROMISED.

    Sub D of Section 1 of ASHI Code of Ethics:

    Quote:

    D. Inspectors shall not receive compensation for an inspection from more than one party unless agreed to by the client(s).
    What you should have highlighted in red was :
    Inspectors shall not receive compensation for an inspection from more than one party unless agreed to by the client(s).

    Because I previously stated that this in one of the contingencies of the "walk and talk".

    Since the inspection report contract is with the seller I obtain approval with them to discuss the report with the buyer
    I presume you do not consider the buyer's paying for this walk and talk to be clients?!?
    Yes, they are clients. But they are not clients who purchased a home inspection. The purchased a "walk and talk". They purchased my time to explain the home and a home inspection report that was performed for another client.

    OF COURSE THIS HAS TO DO WITH ETHICS. One's performance of Home Inspections should always be done ethically. Realtors were mentioned in original post (which I quoted immediately above my quote of your post), and regarding the title of the thread, one LISTS with real estate brokers/agents. IT HAS TO DO WITH BOTH.

    How can you defend such a statement?!?
    Because I've already shown how this can be done ethically and without bias. However, you and the person I made the previous statement to have decided to misquote the ASHI Code of Ethics and make accusatory comments. Now instead of dissecting every word or statement I made, trying to catch me in some sort of impropriety (for whatever reason you may have) why not try to be helpful to the original poster?

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  38. #38
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Forgive us if it appears we are picking on you and not sticking to the OP

    Fact is you made statements, others did not agree with your process, they made statements about your comments, you did not like them and keep wanting to ....what ever to the owner of the site. If you do not want you posts commented on then do not post anything on here. For gosh sakes man,

    Here is what HG should have highlighted

    Inspectors shall avoid conflicts of interest or activities that compromise, or appear to compromise, professional independence, objectivity, or inspection integrity

    That pretty much sums up what we disagree with. Everything you stated goes against every bit of that statement no matters who agrees to what. I can talk an idiot into jumping off a cliff. If he agrees with it is it OK that talked him into it. Was it the right thing to do.

    Please try to avoid the "he is picking on me thing" It is unprofessional and as I said. You made statements. Those statements were countered.

    I do promise after this note I will not comment again so others can get into or should I say back into the mix. Sorry for the some what take over of the thread but it did have everything to do with

    "How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection? and your posts. After all, is this not why you commented about how you do pre-listing inspections and follow thru with future buyers that we happened to not agree with.


  39. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    If we want to hang our hats on this statement from the ASHI COE as the ethics standard....."Inspectors shall avoid conflicts of interest or activities that compromise, or appear to compromise, professional independence, objectivity, or inspection integrity", then every inspector who markets themselves to realtors is also in violation. Pounding on Ken for what he does is like hunting the little white mouse while the big 800 lb ethics gorilla sitting in the corner is ignored. Trying to legislate ethics is like trying to make a law that says restaurants can only serve food that tastes good. Where do you begin? Where do you end?

    Codes of Ethics (at least the excerpt pasted above) are too muddy and murky in their wording to come anywhere close to being definitive and clear cut.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Inspectors shall avoid conflicts of interest or activities that compromise, or appear to compromise, professional independence, objectivity, or inspection integrity
    I guess some inspectors can keep their integrity, professionalism, and objectivity while doing these and some can't. I'm one who can.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  41. #41
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    I guess I am fortunate that I stay busy enough that it is easy to avoid these "choices" that may be questionable to some people.


  42. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,549

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Well anyway, I promote the pre-listing inspection as a good way to prepare a home for sale.
    Disclosure? No problem. Disclose everything, then sit back and watch them try to find something you didn't tell them.
    When I sold my last place, FSBO, I produced 8 pages of disclosure info. The buyer didn't feel an inspection was even necessary after that.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    K.R.,


    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post

    ...
    Because I've already shown how this can be done ethically and without bias. However, you and the person I made the previous statement to have decided to misquote the ASHI Code of Ethics and make accusatory comments. Now instead of dissecting every word or statement I made, trying to catch me in some sort of impropriety (for whatever reason you may have) why not try to be helpful to the original poster?
    I have not misquoted the ASHI CoE.



    I note you completely ignored the second half of my first post on this string (#35) and you have inserted your own motivations and "feelings" into what I have said, claiming I have said things that I did not.

    You further combined and taken out of context things I stated responding to a separate quote of you and on a completely different subject from my second (and intentionally separate) post (#36) on this topic string. One post had nothing to do with the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    ...
    Yes, they are clients. But they are not clients who purchased a home inspection. The purchased a "walk and talk". They purchased my time to explain the home and a home inspection report that was performed for another client.
    ...
    Your attempts at "deciding" the direction of threads which you have not created, and control the thoughts, and posts of others, are unappreciated. Your re-interpretation of what I have said, and your misrepresentations regarding other's posts (myself included) are unappreciated.

    You are the one who brought up this "walk and talk" idea of yours relative to the original post and topic title. You are the one who injected this into the discussion, suggesting that it was a way to expand upon the income and service of a pre-listing inspection, apparently as a way "to do" it.

    Realtors on topic brought up by original poster in original post, and ethical performance is a part of any HI's performance. YOU claim to abide by ASHI as a member and the only "controlling authority" of your HI activities in Minnesota (unlicensed, unregulated state).

    You have, however, both here and in other strings mis-represented what the CoE does and does not say, and spoken in opposite to published RFIs. On at least one recent occasion you admitted your error (after many posts).

    Yet claim that ASHI SoP is the only "control" for your operations in MN.

    The SoP, CoE and Bylaws apply to ASHI members.

    I spoke to your claims and attempts at controlling discussion on this thread, and your poorly constructed justifications for promoting an activity which as you presented it, is dependant on producing an intitial inspection report which would be desired by the seller to publish to all interested buyers, and promoting/advertising/soliciting the "walk and talk" business which you associated as "additional income" generated by and based upon the original "seller home inspection" and "inspection report".

    I recommended that you REQUEST an RFI from ASHI regarding this activity.

    You have already been proven to misquote, misapply, and construct falsely regarding the ASHI CoE in other instances on this forum. YOU have misreprented on this string the CONSTRUCTION and APPLICATION of the CoE already here, the format and claim that the subsections are an exclusive and all exaustive list which restrict or create limitations of the preceeding numbered sections are incorrect. This has been addressed via publications from ASHI.

    Any member can request an RFI. I recommended you do so, and do so deliniating your "justification" arguments and "activies" in this area, just as you have done here in the RFI.

    I have not indicated a belief that any potential deviation from the CoE has been willful. I have merely suggested that it might be considered to have the APPEARANCE of a deviation, and that "influence" might be sub-concious, despite your proffesions and protestations that it is imposible.

    The "motivation" to EARN or promote the opportunity to derrive more income from these so-called "walk and talks" to the exclusion of yourself or any other Home Inspector to perform an actual BUYER'S HOME INSPECTION. There are POSSIBLE motivations that COULD POSSIBLY INFLUANCE the writing of said report, and to have, encourage, elicit, the Seller to CHOSE upon receiving your SELLER's Home Inspection report to decide to go ahead and DISCLOSE your ACTUAL report as opposed to using another method for disclosure, etc. and the promotion of said walk and talk as opposed, and to the exclusion of a buyer, to acquire an actual FRESH, (independant) HOME INSPECTION on behalf of the BUYER exluding yourself and any other home inspector, seems to me NOT GOOD FOR THE INDUSTRY.

    I am concerned that it may indeed be IN CONFLICT as an UNEQUAL and INAPPROPRIATE "alternative" to the Buyer's interests, general public, consumers in general to an ACTUAL HOME INSPECTION.

    Since ASHI members are duty bound (ethically bound by the CoE) to REPORT members whose activities are in conflict (final sub paragraph of the CoE), I recommended STRONGLY that you consider submitting a RFI YOURSELF, especially before you start attacking those that express even the slightest concerns with what you have said and how you have promoted it as a means and method, and claims that it is IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR IT TO BE OR APPEAR TO BE IN CONFLICT.

    OPINION of YOUR OWN MOTIVATIONS, SUB-CONCIOUS, or THOUGHT-PROCESSES, was not being offered or solicited. It was offered that the APPEARANCE or POTENTIAL for conflict with the language and spirit of the CoE, SoP and bylaws, was.

    The SoP, CoE and bylaws address the APPEARANCE of... as well.

    The "cut downs" to anyone who cannot "see" how only an "ethically" and "intellectually" equal to yourself could possibly "perform" without even the appearance of a conflict or that there was something "deficient" in anyone who questioned the "walk and talk" scenerio as YOU PRESENTED IT, is in my opinioin inappropriate.You have been proven outright wrong in other of your representations regarding the ASHI CoE and SoP, let us hope that the "walk and talk" scenerio as you have presented it here, is is not one of those situations.

    Self-submission of an RFI is the best, most gentle wayto address such a concern or QUESTION. There are other means & ways, RFI submissions from OTHERS, complaint submissions, etc.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-11-2010 at 09:02 AM.

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring Hill (Nashville), TN
    Posts
    5,847

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Wow, this thread became another test of testosterone!

    Yesterday I performed a "pre-listing" inspection on a home that the owner has been "prepping" for sale. They lived in the home for a few years and have now moved closer to their jobs about 50 miles away. So they have painted, added new tile, refinished the wood floors, new cabinets and countertops, new bathroom fixtures, including sinks and toilets, etc, etc..

    They honestly felt that they had the home ready to go.

    They pretty much have remodeled the entire home on the interior only. The exterior needs plenty of work! Seems like they were only going for first impression looks and forgot about the roof, water heater, electrical, and the foundation!

    I wonder if my report will be given to the prospective buyer?

    A few pictures to enjoy....

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  45. #45
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Wow, this thread became another test of testosterone!

    Yesterday I performed a "pre-listing" inspection on a home that the owner has been "prepping" for sale. They lived in the home for a few years and have now moved closer to their jobs about 50 miles away. So they have painted, added new tile, refinished the wood floors, new cabinets and countertops, new bathroom fixtures, including sinks and toilets, etc, etc..

    They honestly felt that they had the home ready to go.

    They pretty much have remodeled the entire home on the interior only. The exterior needs plenty of work! Seems like they were only going for first impression looks and forgot about the roof, water heater, electrical, and the foundation!

    I wonder if my report will be given to the prospective buyer?



    A few pictures to enjoy....
    The leak at the water heater is just to let the bad water out.

    The blocks on their sides are if the home shifts the blocks will crumble alerting the occupants that there is an issue at hand.

    The exposed light bulb is so if your head hits it this will remind you that you have to changed those lights out. The ones with the missing bulbs are bug killers.

    The work needed on the outside was left to be done so when the folks see it then walk inside they will say "Oh, but look how nice they have done the inside over"


  46. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    HG,

    You keep referring to "buyer's" inspection and "seller's" inspection as if they are two different things. In my opinion they are not. Until you understand that I view my position is that of a Home Inspector and not a Client Advocate you'll continue to view this type of inspection as unethical. I report the facts of the home. I don't make recommendations to clients whether to buy the home or not. In fact, I could really care less if they buy the home or not. That isn't what I'm there for. I'm there to inspect the home and give the facts.

    K.R.,

    I have not misquoted the ASHI CoE.
    No, you only failed to include their definitions.

    You have, however, both here and in other strings mis-represented what the CoE does and does not say, and spoken in opposite to published RFIs.
    Feel free to post these "Published RFIs".

    In the mean time, I'll post this:

    e080404 Charging a buyer for a prelisting report and walkthrough

    ID : e080404 Date : 4/4/2008
    Question
    Isit a conflict of interest for an inspector to perform a prelisting inspection for a seller and then with the seller’s permission provide a buyer of the property with the home inspection report and charge the buyer a fee to walkthrough the property and check that items noted in the report were repaired?
    Response
    The Code ofEthics does not prohibit an inspector from performing a prelisting inspection for the seller and then later, for a fee and with the consent of the seller, consulting with the buyer on items identified in the original report as needing repair. The Code of Ethics Item 1D states that Inspectors shall not receive compensation for an inspection from more than one party unless agreed to by the client(s). The question addressed in this RFI describes full disclosure and agreement between the parties involved.


    Last edited by Ken Rowe; 08-11-2010 at 09:30 AM.
    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  47. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    HG,

    You keep referring to "buyer's" inspection and "seller's" inspection as if they are two different things. In my opinion they are not.
    No, you only failed to include their definitions.

    Feel free to post these "Published RFIs".

    In the mean time, I'll post this:


    The are indeed two different "things", events, transactions, for different parties of the same potential real estate transaction. Not in the manner or type, but as separate distinct events for two distinctly different parties of a real estate transaction.

    But that is not the point. Your "walk and talk" is being paid for by a different party (the buyer) as an extention of the seller's inspection, different parties to the same real estate transaction; and furthermore instead of or in lieu of a home inspection (and report), even a limited one in scope and verbally reported for/to the buyer.

    Your "quotation" describes in its response early on the phrase "and then". Furthermore, it near its conclusion references a condition, to wit I FIRST ASKED ABOUT, i.e. FULL DISCLOSURE AND CONSENT. The RFI discusses a follow-up type separate INSPECTION EVENT, albeit LIMITED in scope and does not address whether the limited inspection event is memorialized. It further does not claim that there is no obligation to the BUYER who is paying for this limited walk-through INSPECTION addressing ONLY those areas expected to have been CORRECTED, ALTERED, CHANGED or REPAIRED as a result of having been IDENTIFIED in the PRIOR INSPECTION REPORT as in need of same.

    The question addressed in this RFI describes full disclosure and agreement between the parties involved
    This education/disclosure of the BUYER to acquire INFORMED CONSENT of the BUYER, was what I FIRST DISCUSSED at the very beginning of my first participation on this thread.

    You never addressed how you performed THAT function, all you did was attack, read "into" and justify your actions on many other levels.

    AWARE of published RFIs and summarys. You still seem to MISS what was being asked (and the language of what has been published). And what you have "represented" YOU do and what you have and HAVE NOT "explained" YOUR VERSION of the "walk and talk" on this topic string.

    to walkthrough the property and check that items noted in the report were repaired
    You also seem to have missed the conclusion of the "question" which was submitted for the quoted RFI. It describes something distinctly different then your presentaiton of YOUR "walk and talk". It describes a purpose and procedure in which the Inspector is CHECKING that REPAIRS of conditions outlined as requiring CORRECTION in the ORIGNAL Inpsection Report have been made. This would indicate that a CHANGE in the CONDITIONS of previously identified areas cited in the original Inspection Report ARE ANTICIPATED AND EXPECTED to be IDENTIFIED in the "walkthrough" or "walk and talk" as you call it.

    The RFI itself is limited as to scope (as it should be), as is its reply. The fact set of the RFI is distinctly different than what you have put forth here in this discussion.

    e080404 Charging a buyer for a prelisting report and walkthrough

    ID : e080404 Date : 4/4/2008
    Question
    Isit a conflict of interest for an inspector to perform a prelisting inspection for a seller and then with the sellerís permission provide a buyer of the property with the home inspection report and charge the buyer a fee to walkthrough the property and check that items noted in the report were repaired?

    Response
    The Code of Ethics does not prohibit an inspector from performing a prelisting inspection for the seller and then later, for a fee and with the consent of the seller, consulting with the buyer on items identified in the original report as needing repair. The Code of Ethics Item 1D states that Inspectors shall not receive compensation for an inspection from more than one party unless agreed to by the client(s). The question addressed in this RFI describes full disclosure and agreement between the parties involved.
    Distinctions with differences (from what YOU have presented). Significance of which has yet to be determined.

    You claimed you did NOT perform ANY sort of check or INSPECTION,
    and have NO CONTRACTUAL RESPONSIBILITY to the BUYERS in YOUR version "walk and talk". A LIMITED INSPECTION on behalf of the BUYERS for a FEE is what was/is addressed by the RFI quotation you posted and I copied above.

    This is what YOU have said here regarding YOUR "walk and talk" which I have been following up on:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe
    For a voluntary listing inspection I'll do the same inspection as a buyer would receive. For $125 I'll do a walk and talk with the new buyers. The walk and talk is not an inspection, but is only used to give first time home buyers an idea of how to take care of the home.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe
    My contractual obligation is to the seller. It's the seller's name on the report. Even though I discuss the inspection report with the buyer and do a walk and talk with the buyer I have no contractual obligation to them. I have no liability to the buyer since I never performed an inspection for them.
    JUST WHAT ARE YOU OFFERING and the BUYER ACCEPTING, WHAT ARE YOU PERFORMING IN RETURN FOR THE $125 the BUYER IS PAYING? What you describe as your "walk and talk" is DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT than the RFI.

    Offer, acceptance, consideration (payment) performance. You have a contractural relationship, written document or not.

    That position/stance/attitude that you have no liability obligation in performance of "walk and talk" or verbally reported limited WALKTHROUGH INSPECTION, to the buyer who paid you $125 is one of the main things I QUESTION. THE APPEARANCE as indicated by these statements, which I doubt you indicate to those walk and talk buyer CUSTOMERS in such a manner....and that same "attitude" appears to be in conflict with CofE and SoP. There would/should be an ETHICAL RESPONSIBILITY to the party paying for your services, ASHI would address this, they would not address the legal responsiblilty or get into contract law, recourse liability, etc..

    It is difficult to grasp your concept, justifications, explanations, etc. and your "position" that you have NO contractual relationship, responsibility to perform, etc. to the buyer AND have NO LIABILITY. Either you are acting as an "orientation, host, tour guide" for a walkthrough on behalf of the selling agent/seller and demanding a "gratuity" from this buyer...or you are performing some sort of service for the buyer and have a contractual relationship with the buyer and the buyer is paying you for it.

    What does the buyer think they are paying for? A gratuity or a service. If a service - what service. Does the buyer know you perform whatever this "walk and talk" service is with an attitude or opinon that are neither responsible or nor liable for what you represent to them, say, do, etc. during this walk and talk?

    The sub sections/paragraphs are not definitions.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-11-2010 at 12:06 PM.

  48. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    The are indeed two different "things", events, transactions, for different parties of the same potential real estate transaction. Not in the manner or type, but as separate distinct events for two distinctly different parties of a real estate transaction.
    You've failed to grasp the context. I am not referring to a "walk and talk" and home inspection, or parties involved in the transaction. What I stated was:
    You keep referring to "buyer's" inspection and "seller's" inspection as if they are two different things. In my opinion they are not.
    This means exactly what it says...the "buyer's" inspection and "seller's" inspection are done exactly the same way. They are conducted by the same SOP, the reports are worded exactly the same, the reporting software is the same. One inspection is identical to the other. Notice the sentence does not mention transaction, parties or real estate transactions. The noun in the sentence is INSPECTION. That's what the rest of the sentence is referring to.

    This education/disclosure of the BUYER to acquire INFORMED CONSENT of the BUYER, was what I FIRST DISCUSSED at the very beginning of my first participation on this thread.

    You never addressed how you performed THAT function, all you did was attack, read "into" and justify your actions on many other levels.
    This claim is very interesting since I posted the following 2 days prior to you posting in this thread. In fact, you quoted this in your first post of this thread. But you are correct stating I never addressed how I perform that function, only that it was performed. But then again, you never asked. Which I would have gladly explained if you hadn't jumped on me with the accusations of being unethical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    Keep in mind every time I've done a listing inspection the inspection report became part of the disclosure, that's what the inspection is done for. That report is shared with all potential buyers. That's how they know to call me for a "walk and talk". A "walk and talk" is not an inspection.

    Since the inspection report contract is with the seller I obtain approval with them to discuss the report with the buyer.


    You also seem to have missed the conclusion of the "question" which was submitted for the quoted RFI. It describes something distinctly different then your presentaiton of YOUR "walk and talk". It describes a purpose and procedure in which the Inspector is CHECKING that REPAIRS of conditions outlined as requiring CORRECTION in the ORIGNAL Inpsection Report have been made. This would indicate that a CHANGE in the CONDITIONS of previously identified areas cited in the original Inspection Report ARE ANTICIPATED AND EXPECTED to be IDENTIFIED in the "walkthrough" or "walk and talk" as you call it.
    Yes the question does describe checking that items noted in the report were repaired. However, the answer does not.
    Response
    The Code ofEthics does not prohibit an inspector from performing a prelisting inspection for the seller and then later, for a fee and with the consent of the seller, consulting with the buyer on items identified in the original report as needing repair.
    The response goes beyond that an states items "identified in the original report as needing repairs."
    I previously posted:
    I'll take them on a walking tour of their home discussing everything in the report. Show them their mechanicals and how they operate.
    You have, however, both here and in other strings mis-represented what the CoE does and does not say, and spoken in opposite to published RFIs. On at least one recent occasion you admitted your error (after many posts).
    Again I ask that you post the RFI you claim I am violating.

    And you're right, one time I did admit my error and apologized. Something you might think about doing.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  49. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    I did not say YOU were UNETHICAL. You said I did.That's YOUR projection not something I said.

    The quoted RFI is discussing a LIMITED INSPECTION on behalf of the buyer it does not address verbal or written reporting of that LIMITED INSPECTION "check" walkthrough. It was refering to a "walkthough" as in follow-up, or LIMITED inspection.

    It does not apply a contractual immunity or non-responsibility or non-liability for ones actions, nor a non-applicability of SoP, CoE nor ASHI bylaws.

    It does refer to non-published portion of request submission regards to disclosure and consent of parties (that's plural) to be accepting fees from multiple parties regarding subject of the same real estate transaction.You have claimed your "walk and talk" is NOT an inspection in any way, not a limited inspection as to area and scope such as the RFI addresses.

    You have claimed your "walk and talk" CLIENT (the buyer) has no contractual relationship with you, and implied no liability whatsoever regarding the walk and talk service you provide for $125.

    The RFI you quoted does not address the "walk and talk" that you describe.

    The RFI descibes something distinctly different than what you have described. The RFI addresses a limited inspection, and correctly asserts that the CoE does pertain to same.

    The RFI addresses a LIMITED in scope (to the areas identified in the Seller's report as needing repairs - and checking that those repairs were completed, satisfactorialy) INSPECTION on behalf of the Buyer.

    Your two day reference makes no sense. You responded immediately and quoted the better part of that post, ignored the second half, and seem to CONFUSE the participation from verious posters, and the time-line chain of events.

    I quoted every one of the posts that I was basing my first post on SO IT WAS CLEAR AS TO THE CONTEXT TO WHICH I WAS POSTING. I did the same on my second post on this topic string.

    This, apparently escapes you.

    Similarly the second half of my first post on this thread apparently ignored or not understood, and most especially what was actually stated in its conclusion.

    Enough said.

    Your characterization of my posts is incorrect.

    My posts speak for themselves.

    I stand by my suggestion/strong recommendation regarding a self-generated directed and specific Request For Interpretation (RFI).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-11-2010 at 01:43 PM.

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    I did not say YOU were UNETHICAL. You said I did.That's YOUR projection not something I said.
    Really? Then what exactly are you saying here?

    I'm having difficulty grasping how excepting a fee for a "walk and talk" from a buyer regarding a pending or potential property transaction wherein you performed a seller's inspection with a contracted understanding with said seller regarding said inspection report that it would be shared with any and all potential buyers can be considered in concert with the ASHI Code of Ethics, or bylaws, or the spirit of either.
    To me it says the fact that I accept a fee for explaining an inspection report for the buyer when the inspection was performed for the seller is violating the ASHI Code of Ethics. Thus, I am doing something unethical.

    The quoted RFI is discussing a LIMITED INSPECTION on behalf of the buyer it does not address verbal or written reporting of that LIMITED INSPECTION "check" walkthrough. It was refering to a "walkthough" as in follow-up, or LIMITED inspection.
    Really? It's discussing a Limited Inspection? Please re-read the RFI and let me know exactly where you see the term "Limited Inspection" used. Because I don't see it. The original question does ask about checking repairs. However, the opinion does not mention repairs. It says "...items identified in the original report as needing repair." Not to see if the repairs were made. The opinion is what counts here, not the question.

    You can read into it whatever you wish. Twist it around any way you want, but it says what it says.

    I'm still waiting for you to post the RFI you stated to know exists which strictly forbids what I'm doing.


    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  51. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    St Paul, MN
    Posts
    1,628

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    You know what HG, I'm done responding to you on this thread. I responded to the original poster's question. Explained how I did pre-listing inspections and such. Then had to come back and defend the ethics to you and others, simply because you didn't believe me. Then I post the actual ASHI clauses and RFI which addresses this specific issue. You come back with the idea that it doesn't apply here.

    You're 100% right HG. The way I do pre-listing inspections and "walk and talks" is totally unethical and I should be run out of the inspection business for it. You are the one and only person who's opinion counts and I will forever be the puppet to your master.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  52. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    WESTMINSTER CO
    Posts
    1,090

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    looks like MR ROWE is again making friends and offending many--he is on my ignore list, SO CAN'T read his as the ROWE WORLDS IS , but reading the rebuttals to his input is why i said IGNORE

    FOLLOW THE ADVICE HG AND TED

    CHAS


  53. #53
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: How do you do a Pre-listing Inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Rowe View Post
    .
    ....
    You can read into it whatever you wish. Twist it around any way you want, but it says what it says.

    I'm still waiting for you to post the RFI you stated to know exists which strictly forbids what I'm doing.
    It is you who obviously have the "twisting problem".

    I never said such a thing. This is yet another one of your inventions.

    You claimed you have no contractural relationship with the Buyer/purchaser of your "walk and talk" "concept". You claim the buyer has no right and can not hold you to performance or utilize the pre-purchase inspection originally purchased by the seller, which has become part of the DISCLOSURE, with YOUR contractualized consent.

    Your "walk and talk" is by your own explanations, a service, based, with YOURS, the SELLER'S and the BUYER's CONSENT.

    The buyer is paying for a service (just what that service that YOU provide seems to be muddy) pays, you accept the fee and supposedly perform, all based upon the INSPECTION REPORT you produced earlier.

    The RFI you cited describes a (paid for by the buyer) limited re-inspection based upon the original inspection & report (paid for by the seller) with the consent of all parties to:
    "walkthrough the property and check that items noted in the report were repaired" ... "consulting with the buyeron items identified in the original report as needing repair"

    Your claims, assertions, and descriptions of your "walk and talk" are distinctly different that the "walk-through" inspection addressed in the RFI YOU QUOTED/cited.

    The SoP, CoE and bylaws of ASHI are clear. RFIs are specific to a presented fact set. The language YOU posted as an RFI in support of YOUR presentation of YOUR "walk and talk" in this post DOES NOT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS. Your application of them (SoP, CoE, ByLaws, or RFIS) is not clear to this "walk and talk" non-inspection, non-contractual relationship, "orientation", as evidenced in this thread.

    You twist what I have said and frankly in many posts, completely make things up.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •