Thread: Rental R.V's???

Hello fellow inspectors,
I am a Building Code Official from north central Pennsylvania, home of all the marcellus shale oil and gas work. Lately campgrounds in our local area have been buying/building small cabins on mobile home frames/skids and have been placing them on their lots for rent to the transient gas workers. They also have been renting regular RVs. Basically what I would like to is if there are any regulations out there for renting rvs and these cabins on frames/skids. I look at them as an R2, which would mean that they have to be sprinklered, and built to IRC/IBC. Most of these are not short term rentals, they are being rented and lived in for months at a time. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Matt Erb
BCO, RCI
Erb Building Inspections
Lawrenceville, PA

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[Hi Matt,
I have alot of experience in this field in New York for about 22 years. Unless things have changed all R.V. products fall under motor vehicle laws (as long as properly licensed with a up to date tag displayed on the unit) so the only laws you can enforce are your local laws pertaining to licensing and length of time persons can keep the R.V. on site without being considered a permanant home. Most municipalities require no more than 11 months of occupancy per R.V. site per year. As for the cabins refer to your mobile home laws which should require these types of units to have a HUD certification (if over 8 feet wide with typical appliances,kitchen and bathroom/"anything under is considered a R.V.") which means they would need a building permit like you would require for any mobile home.NOTE; If the unit is electricly HARD WIRED and not a PLUG-IN type of wiring it is not to be considered a R.V. and falls under a different building status (check your town,county regulations) which should require some type of inspection. As far as a requirement for sprinklers I never knew of any municipal law (Town,State,County or Federal) that would require a Recreational use to install sprinklers for a non-commercial envirement and feel if you try to enforce it you will cost your local tax payers alot of money fighting it in court.(NOT ADVISED) But what I would do is require the proper residential type items like smoke detectors,carbon monoxide detectors if appliances are present and fire extinguishers. I hope this helps!

Bill

quote=Matt Erb;156889]Hello fellow inspectors,
I am a Building Code Official from north central Pennsylvania, home of all the marcellus shale oil and gas work. Lately campgrounds in our local area have been buying/building small cabins on mobile home frames/skids and have been placing them on their lots for rent to the transient gas workers. They also have been renting regular RVs. Basically what I would like to is if there are any regulations out there for renting rvs and these cabins on frames/skids. I look at them as an R2, which would mean that they have to be sprinklered, and built to IRC/IBC. Most of these are not short term rentals, they are being rented and lived in for months at a time. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Matt Erb
BCO, RCI
Erb Building Inspections
Lawrenceville, PA[/quote]

Mat,
As you already know the answer is a zoning code issue. What if they were renting out tents? Would you have the same question. Non permanent/movable items?

Thanks for the responses guys!

In our area local laws pretty much are non-existing, it is only the state law that is enforced. These are not just things that you could back up to and pull away. They have been placed for permanent rental units in non-state owned campgrounds. Recreational Vehicles will say right in their owners manual that the unit is not to be used as a domicile. As for the cabins they are not HUD certified, they are built on used mobile home frames by the owners or a contractor that builds sheds and play houses, and moved to the campground for use as transient housing.
"101.2 Scope. The provisions ofthis code shall apply to the construction,

alteration,

movement, enlargement, replacement,
repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, maintenance,
removal and demolition of every building or structure or any
appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings or
structures.

Exception:

Detached one- and two-family dwellings and
multiple single-family dwellings (townhouses) not more
than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate

means of egress

and their accessory structures shall

comply with the International Residential Code." 2009 ICC IBC

The campers are not registered and are not inspected through the DMV. My issues are that, there are not proper means of eggress, accessability has not been addressed, pretty the entire building code has been violated. The campground owners that are normally a seasonal establishment, are staying open through the winter to house these workers, pretty much like a hotel or a motel, but without any regards to safety of the occupants.
I guess I am kinda lost on how to address this situation as it has started to spread like wildfire through our area.

Thanks for any further help.

Something more to add is the Department of Labor and Industry's definition of a "Recreational Cabin"

"Recreational cabin." A structure which is:
(1) utilized principally for recreational activity;
(2) not utilized as a domicile or residence for any individual for any time period;
(3) not utilized for commercial purposes;
(4) not greater than two stories in height, excluding basement;
(5) not utilized by the owner or any other person as a place of employment;
(6) not a mailing address for bills and correspondence; and
(7) not listed as an individual's place of residence on a tax return, driver's license, car registration or voter registration. (copied from section 7210.103. of the PA Uniform Construction Code Statute) Thanks Again

Have you seen the tiny house movement?

Part of the point in constructing houses on axles is that the structure falls outside of the building codes and under the province of the motor vehicle regulations. This is typically to skirt requirements for staircase and bedroom geometry.

It's too bad there's no provision in the codes to make it legal to build a tiny house (and therefore be able to enforce safety concerns like egress or fire suppression). Instead with minimum dimensions for just about everything these days, it's practically impossible to build a conforming house in a footprint smaller than 250 sf and creative types have had to resort to building non-houses.

None of which is an excuse for erecting shanty towns, which it sounds like you have from your description.

As the plot thickens..... I now understand (others may not) where you are coming from and what the real trailer issue is.

It's not about inspection or safety. Its about leverage to stop campground owners from renting out trailers and creating a year round trailer park in your neighborhood. You probably didn't like the fact that the campground was there in the first place with its transient population and added congestion.

You need to get active in the local politics to create a Code restricting campground to seasonal usage. Of course the campground may be grandfathered as to usage prior to and Code changes. Just llike building codes.

The alternative is to get some type of rental property registration and inspection law created to cover all rental properties for minimal saftey of the tenants.

Good luck

Hi Matt,
Go by the State and county laws only if you do not have local laws in place for your town. The R.V.units are built with the intent of being a temporary Domicile which is why most municipalities require a no more than 11 month rule. Some even go to extent of requiring a R.V. cannot stay on the same campsite for more than 6 months. Unfortunatly everything the campgrounds do prior to laws being in place is grandfathered except safety issues to comply with federal and state construction codes! Check into it and I believe you will find your municipality has an obligation to enforce state and federal safety rules which means you can require electrical,plumbing,framing etc. inspections on the home made cabins. By the way I always believed we lived in a free country and keep in mind citizens just like you have these freedoms and while approaching touchy situations be kind and explain you are just trying to protect them from any misfortunate accidents which is why laws are in place. Good Luck!!!

Originally Posted by Matt Erb

Thanks for the responses guys!

In our area local laws pretty much are non-existing, it is only the state law that is enforced. These are not just things that you could back up to and pull away. They have been placed for permanent rental units in non-state owned campgrounds. Recreational Vehicles will say right in their owners manual that the unit is not to be used as a domicile. As for the cabins they are not HUD certified, they are built on used mobile home frames by the owners or a contractor that builds sheds and play houses, and moved to the campground for use as transient housing.
"101.2 Scope. The provisions ofthis code shall apply to the construction,

alteration,

movement, enlargement, replacement,

repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, maintenance,
removal and demolition of every building or structure or any
appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings or
structures.

Exception:

Detached one- and two-family dwellings and

multiple single-family

dwellings (townhouses) not more

than three

stories above grade plane in height with a separate

means of egress

and their accessory structures shall
comply with the International Residential Code." 2009 ICC IBC

The campers are not registered and are not inspected through the DMV. My issues are that, there are not proper means of eggress, accessability has not been addressed, pretty the entire building code has been violated. The campground owners that are normally a seasonal establishment, are staying open through the winter to house these workers, pretty much like a hotel or a motel, but without any regards to safety of the occupants.
I guess I am kinda lost on how to address this situation as it has started to spread like wildfire through our area.

Thanks for any further help.

What? No lecture from out retired expert on all things? Oh! give hime a chance to do some online reaearch.

Lot's of county inspectors are getting laid off.... budgets are tight.... no new construction = now permit fees = inspectors looking for something to do.... not that this topic isn't important but we'd be hard pressed to find it 4 years ago.

So, is it important.... or is it financially necessary for some?

Matt,
It sure is important, a Campground is a Commercial establishment, and they did not follow any of the laws to put these in let alone rent them. Which makes them illeagal structures not fit for occupancy. The people that are staying in these, because they are cheaper than hotels, locally transient housing is at a shortage, pretty much the only people using them are gas workers. They are staying in them to avoid taxes, changing addresses, and everything else that is envolved with working for long periods of time away from home. We are not attacking this subject just because we want something to do.... we are checking into it because the township received a complaint about it, and we are really not sure how to address it.
I am almost ready to go to the campground, post an order to vacate on all the illegal buildings and tell the campground owner/operator that they have 24hrs to get everyone out of them, and then they must get township approval, submit an application and stamped plans for each of the units. Basically make them follow the process that they tried to sneak past. I would really like to avoid posting the buildings, and being the bad guy to the workers staying in them, but what would happen if someone's camping cabin caught fire do to poor wiring or even having the clearances wrong for the heater, and then top it all off the nessesary means of eggress was not compliant so they could not get out. Lawyers would be looking for someone to stick and everyone of us know that they come after us first. The governments both local and state want their money, we are more worried about life safety envolved

Thanks
Matt

Originally Posted by Matt Erb

I am almost ready to go to the campground, post an order to vacate on all the illegal buildings and tell the campground owner/operator that they have 24hrs to get everyone out of them, and then they must get township approval, submit an application and stamped plans for each of the units.

The question you asked in the beginning is whether these units are in fact "buildings" that fall under the purview of code enforcement. The State of Pennsylvania defines a mobile home as

a transportable, single-family dwelling unit intended for permanent occupancy and constructed as a single unit, or as two or more units designed to be joined into one integral unit capable of again being separated for repeated towing, which arrives at a site complete and ready for occupancy except for minor and incidental unpacking and assembly operations, and constructed so that it may be used without a permanent foundation.

I think it's clear that these aren't mobile homes, as you described them as RVs and cabins built on mobile home frames. As such, they likely do not fall under building code enforcement.

There may be zoning regulations that are applicable, and if you are also responsible for zoning enforcement then that is likely a more productive angle to take. Unless the park owner has violated some law, you have no standing to issue a vacate notice. I would suggest you (i.e. your municipality) consult legal counsel to see if there is a law being violated (and with the complexity of laws these days, it's almost guaranteed that each of us is violating some law) that will provide you with the legal authority to do such a thing.

Take note, however, that just because there has been a complaint doesn't mean there is any legal recourse to address it. You may have to tell the complainant to take it up with your municipal or county government to change the zoning or land use laws to address situations like these.

So what you are saying is that I can put 20 of these little sheds on my property and rent them out to whomever for however long I want (no local laws on time)without having to deal with any code?

They are definately in violation of 105.1 of the 2009 IBC

105.1 Required. Any owner or authorized agent

to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish, or change the occupancy of a building or structure, or to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation of which is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be done, shall first make application to the Building Official and obtain the required Permit.

These were just installed in the last month or so, without municpality approval and with out a Uniform Construction Code Permit

It is to my understanding that as Building Inspectors, we regulate the construction, use and occupancy of structures. This has absolutly nothing to do with zoning.

Thank You.

Originally Posted by Matt Erb

So what you are saying is that I can put 20 of these little sheds on my property and rent them out to whomever for however long I want (no local laws on time)without having to deal with any code?

If your zoning, land use, and other laws (or lack thereof) don't prohibit you from parking 20 RVs on your lot, and renting them out, then yes, it would appear you can do this. Don't forget there may be State laws that regulate this; there are State laws regulating mobile home parks as well as landlord/tentant arrangements.

It is to my understanding that as Building Inspectors, we regulate the construction, use and occupancy of structures. This has absolutly nothing to do with zoning.

You don't regulate the construction, use, and occupancy of RVs, regardless of how you might want to stretch your powers. By your logic, you would also be able to regulate the pitching of a tent since it is a structure that is erected for occupancy.

In terms of building code enforcement, you first need to define what structures you are talking about, what uses pertain to those structures, and what laws/codes are being violated in the use of those structures. I think you'll find that RVs do not fall under those provisions, and it looks like these "cabins on wheels" don't either. Historically HUD has been responsible for regulating mobile homes (although many municipalities reclassified them as residential homes for tax purposes more than anything - a lot of 100 mobile homes taxed as vehicles while gobbling up municipal services was a losing proposition). But these aren't mobile homes, even if they use mobile home frames, because they fail to meet the definition of a mobile home as the State of Pennsylvania defines them.

You would do well to revisit your adopted codes, state laws, and local regulations about what exactly falls under your purview. Issuing vacate notices without knowing the legal basis on which you do so is a recipe for an expensive lawsuit. These guys aren't complete dummies - the reason they put these things on wheels is precisely because it helps them skirt building codes.

Hi Matt,
What about your fire department? Do you have a fire marshall that can look into the safety issues of the home made cabins which would in turn tie your hands and give you no choice but to have the cabins brought up to code by complaint of the fire marshall. Hopefully this will give you an opportunity to work together with the camp ground on a more co-operative manner and produces positive attitudes toward the building dept.

Originally Posted by Matt Erb

So what you are saying is that I can put 20 of these little sheds on my property and rent them out to whomever for however long I want (no local laws on time)without having to deal with any code?

They are definately in violation of 105.1 of the 2009 IBC


105.1 Required. Any owner or authorized agent

to construct, enlarge, alter, repair, move, demolish, or change the occupancy of a building or structure, or to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace any electrical, gas, mechanical or plumbing system, the installation of which is regulated by this code, or to cause any such work to be done, shall first make application to the Building Official and obtain the required Permit.

These were just installed in the last month or so, without municpality approval and with out a Uniform Construction Code Permit

It is to my understanding that as Building Inspectors, we regulate the construction, use and occupancy of structures. This has absolutly nothing to do with zoning.

Thank You.

Matt,

Sounds like you have a burr under your saddle and hoping to find someone else to share your pain. I have been an avid RVer for many years. I have travelled extensively in my RV, visited every kind of campground imaginable and witnessed all manner of RV's including cabins/sheds on wheels and those on wheels but jacked off the wheels onto brick or concrete piers. Guess what - they are all RV's and fall under DMV laws, NOT Building Codes. The Campground also sounds to be complying with land use regs. but likely limited by capacity. Take a look at the manner in which each unit is connected to services (electric/water/waste - they probably have their own individual LPG tank) - all of which will probably appear temporary or transient in nature.

Corn and William have given solid advise. This issue is complex and I would also suggest getting legal advise from your own municipalities legal team before you take any action, whatsoever. This matter may be larger than you are empowered (or would want to) to enforce without direction and/or afirmation.

Confused here. You describe portable modular (not mobile) units and recreational vehicles?

Are you asking about:

• The company installed "dormotory" type residential facilities authorized by township supervisors ("man camps", not unlike our military base camps overseas, with common dining facilities/mess-halls, laundry, etc.) be them "Temporary Labor Camps" or "permanent" facilities (even if errected with modular units designed to be transportable/movable after use) or county and if opted out on the Uniform Codes, then the state?
• Expansions in privately owned RV and mobile home parks, that you feel were not authorized to expand, and somehow otherwise limited, or failed to have expansion facitilies permitted or inspected (hookups, potable water supplies and system, sanitary, electric peds, etc.).? or
• created housing developments/installations by others; facilities for migrant workers (be they ag, oil/gas, loggers, whatever).

Sure sounds like you were referring to more than one actually (modular units), and if you have issues or concerns, I'd suggest you check with the township that authorized the residential facitility dorm development of modular dorm units.

This isn't the place for such inquiries. Land use, zoning, public health, not Home Inspector issues. Neither the temporary Modular dorm units, offices, etc.; or RVs are "1-4 family dwelling units", neither are hunting cabins and the like.

The "man camp" units are "modular" not "mobile". Similar to for example the leased or purchased modular classrooms or offices that school districts, businesses, etc. place from time to time; they are temporary in nature, some are certified for limited occupancy and use, those "temporary classrooms" for example are not certified for habitation, but occupancy. Perhaps these units ARE.

We don't know.



Check with the authority having jurisdiction, it seems that is not you.

See also OSHA regulations regarding Temporary Labor Camps as well as permanent facilities for company or employer errected, rented, leased, run, supplied, facilities for labor camps, dormatories, etc.

Land use taxes, property taxes, exemption qualifications, etc. is where you can usually start. Check with the assessor regarding the parcel.

Of course if the land is federal, national park, national forest, being leased, that may be also be a federal matter.

Regulations for Temporary Labor Camps: Temporary labor camps. - 1910.142

H.G,

Hey thanks alot with the link to the Department of Health! That one hit the nail on the head. I have searched every last reference that we have here at the office with no prevail.
Thanks everyone for the assistance!

Matt

Originally Posted by Matt Erb

H.G,

Hey thanks alot with the link to the Department of Health! That one hit the nail on the head. I have searched every last reference that we have here at the office with no prevail.

That's actually the US Department of Labor, and unless the camp owner is affiliated with the employer the OSHA standards may not apply. A "temporary labor camp" is not the same thing as a "campground with temporary shelters or recreational vehicles" that happen to be populated by laborers. It may not be difficult to show a link between the site and the operations (for example, do they offer discounts to employees of a specific company?) but that's something your lawyers will need to discern.

Everything I've read so far concerning private campgrounds and PA law suggests that local zoning regulations are the controlling authority here.

Corn Walker,

Nope, you don't know what he's talking about! Matt Erb was thanking me for information and a Link I supplied to him via off-board communications regarding "who" or "what" permits, inspects and regulates RV and Trailer parks, Campgrounds, and Organized Camps other than "Temporary Labor Camps".

He chose to thank me publicly on the tread he created, rather than just reply via PM, and also extended thanks to all who participated.




Matt Erb,

Originally Posted by Matt Erb

H.G,

Hey thanks alot with the link to the Department of Health! That one hit the nail on the head.I have searched every last reference that we have here at the office with no prevail.
Thanks everyone for the assistance!

Matt

You're welcome Matt Erb!

Hope you find it useful! Admitted some confusion as to just what the situation under concern was from the description and references to the "roughneck" housing situation; so I "threw out a bunch of nails" addressing what I perceived to be the possiblities of what you might have been referring/addressing. Glad one of them hit the mark.



For those that may be wondering,

"WHAT/WHERE IS THE link to the Department of Health?!?"

Well, first of all you'll note mention made previously, regarding RV and trailer parks/camps permited inspection, expansion of facilities, potable water, etc.....

I sent a PM to Matt it read thusly:

Found this for your RV and trailer camp dilema

PA Dept. of Public Health regulates campgrounds and organized camps other than temporary migrant farm worker camps:

Here's a link to the PA code: http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/02...chap19toc.html

(It is not a Dept. of Labor citation).

No soup for you Corn Walker. Shame and public admonishment is now your cross to bear.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Nope, you don't know what he's talking about! Matt Erb was thanking me for information and a Link I supplied to him via off-board communications regarding "who" or "what" permits, inspects and regulates RV and Trailer parks, Campgrounds, and Organized Camps other than "Temporary Labor Camps".

H.G.

Clearly I mis-inferred from the link you publicly posted to the OSHA regulations and the thank you Matt posted for the "Health" link that he misunderstood its origin, probably because OSHA, while an acronym for Occupational Safety and HEALTH Administration, is administered by the Department of Labor.

I don't mind if I'm corrected on the facts. And as I stated, so far all I could find was references to zoning requirements controlling camp grounds and RV parks. And that was not to suggest that there aren't any other controlling entities (such as the PA Dept of Health). But I'm not sure why you're calling me out for not knowing about a private communication you had with Matt and inferring something from the public information that was provided.

Incidentally, it's clear from the timeline of messages, irrespective of your later editing, that my message came BEFORE your clarification about the Health link and was in response to your OSHA link. In fact, the first version of your reply didn't even contain a reference to my reply, suggesting you were unaware of it when you posted the clarification.

So WTF?

Actually "Corn Walker",

I was long-prior engaged in the process of reading the thread with Matt's post and composing a response in the text editor "reply box" which included references to our off-board communications for the benefit of others, well before your posting. I posted it, saw the attempt to quote from the PM didn't format correctly, and engaged in correcting that.

I had no reason or means to have seen (refreshed) your "contribution" posted just a mere 3 minutes or so prior to my own (and I'll have you know it takes me quite some time to effect the compisition of a post) until some one else sent me notice to REVISIT the topic.

However, your "correction" of the OP was "off-the-mark", you made some sort of ASSUMPTION that the OP had some sort of intellectual failure or had made an error in his recognitiion of something you knew nothing about; and ASSUMED you were "privy" to all that had transpired.

Because YOU are/were "out-of-the-loop" or "know-not-to-what-he-refers"; and why would you presume to be correcting the OP as to what and why he made an open contribution thanking ME for information he received from ME and deemed it helpful, or otherwise "on the mark" as to what he was in search of?

Perhaps it may be an unusual or rare experience for YOU, but I am OFTEN CONTACTED via PM and (rarely) occasionally I reach out via PM to participants in a topic discussion, both DURING and in follow-up to what takes place in the OPEN forum.

Those that offer direct or indirect email acceptance, link to additional contact information, etc., I am quite sure, may occasionally or even regularly receive contact from others based upon their contributions to this forum, from direct topic thread participants and/or others who read a post. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that certain participants here have received the benefit of buisness generated by their participation here (it also wouldn't surprise me that some have not).

In this case, as of mid-afternoon Sunday, Matt hadn't "logged in" since Friday shortly after his last contribution to the topic thread; and significantly prior to my first post earlier that afternoon, so I went ahead and followed up with a PM when I was located an updated, working, and direct link to the PA code section to the governmental site which hosts same (not a 3rd party site)which was directly on-point and supported what I had vaguely illuded to regarding potable water, facilities, and required campground/RV park enterprises' requirements for annual permits, inspections, and regulations for the protection of public health; the effect of which would cause an email notification to Matt, should he have retained the forum default settings; well in advance of the beginning of the formal "work week".

You made the condescending presumption "TO CORRECT" the OP.

Why you were apparently so disturbed that some sort of in justice would occur since you deemed the expression of gratitude was in someway unwarranted you were compelled to "CORRECT" the OP, is beyond me.

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

That's actually the US Department of Labor, and unless the camp owner is affiliated with the employer the OSHA standards may not apply. A "temporary labor camp" is not the same thing as a "campground with temporary shelters or recreational vehicles" that happen to be populated by laborers. It may not be difficult to show a link between the site and the operations (for example, do they offer discounts to employees of a specific company?) but that's something your lawyers will need to discern.

Everything I've read so far concerning private campgrounds and PA law suggests that local zoning regulations are the controlling authority here.

Actually, your research is faulty, and your conclusionary statements regarding PA law, and provisions for farm labor housing provisions are erroneous and misguided.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Actually, your research is faulty, and your conclusionary statements regarding PA law, and provisions for farm labor housing provisions are erroneous and misguided.

H.G.,

So you're saying what I've read SO FAR is wrong? The fact that I hadn't read the Health regulations means that whatever I did read about was wrong? Are you saying that local zoning regulations DON'T have jurisdiction? Because if you're saying that both the PA Dept of Health AND local zoning have jurisdiction, then that doesn't contradict anything I've written.

Then you fault me for not being privy to a private conversation? Why exactly should anyone have inferred or assumed there was a private conversation? You posted a link, Matt thanked you for the link. Who in their right mind would say, "gee, I bet there was a private department of health link H.G. posted that Matt is publicly thanking him for and it's not really in reference to this public department of labor link he posted that anyone might have easily confused as being a department of health link because the word health is in the title?" If anything, you and Matt have only added to the confusion in the thread, first by you providing the link back channel (I think everyone would have been better informed were it publicly provided - what purpose did it serve to keep it private?) and second by Matt failing to clarify that his thanks were for a link you provided privately, and not in reference to the link you publicly posted. Are you really that dense?

You're so busy trying to show that you're the smartest guy in the room, with your regular vomiting up verbal garbage on these boards, that I think you're starting to actually believe yourself. Unfortunately, your posts fail to impress, because rather than use your knowledge to educate others, you're too busy thinking highly of yourself and just spew everything that comes through your head as if you're some sort of retired home inspector Benjy Compson. Compounding this complete lack of communication skills, your message formatting further defeats your attempts at making a point. It reminds me of the eight year olds I used to teach when they would find "Fonts" menu in Word.

Or maybe you're just a troll in it for the LOLZ.

There's a certain Cee-Lo Green song that comes to mind. Track 3 on his album Lady Killer. Yeah, you know the one.